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Re: Community Wishlist for JA:F[message #324184] Tue, 20 August 2013 09:04 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Akodo Deathseeker is currently offline Akodo Deathseeker

 
Messages:104
Registered:March 2001
Location: St Paul, MN
DepressivesBrot
For all your big talk, your argumentation style is very dishonest at times. Why do you always cherrypick the biggest SMGs on the market (like the Colt one) and set them against the absolute low end of carbines?


You continue to miss the point.

Let me ask you this...what is the definition of SMG. What defines and SMG is what cartridge it fires, not how big it is.

So, if an SMG is better because it is an SMG, then it is better no matter how big it is.

My argument is that an SB-AR is EQUAL in size (often smaller) to and SMG and fires a superior cartridge and is therefore across the board superior.

YOu claim I am cherry-picking because I choose 'the absolute low end of carbines'

B.S.

Go back and count how many times I state SHORT BARREL or SB.

I am NOT saying that an assault rifle with a 24 inch barrel is superior in close combat. (It may or may not be) I am saying, given TWO guns of EQUAL SIZE, both select fire, the one firing the more potent yet controllable cartridge is superior.

I went to great lengths for the FIRST pair of pictures to get pairs that were reasonably close to each-other in size. I specifically made sure that if one of the pair had a collapsable stock, then so too did the other, and if one was depicted with stock collapsed, so to the other.

Regardless, a long SMG is still an SMG, and if you claim that an SMG is 'best' for CQB because it is an SMG, then that claim should hold up no matter the features in whatever non-SMG is suggested as a 'challenger' for the CQB crown.

If you argue that the comparison isn't fair because the SB-AR has a shorter barrel, then you are AT LEAST admitting that short barrel important. Well, barrel length has ZERO to do with an SMG being an SMG. Exactly how short a barrel must be before something that is an assault rifle is considered a short-barrel assault rifle is up for debate.


Quote:

Second, the whole manufacturer debate started from your comment that "SMGs suck because they aren't generally fielded"


Absolute falsehood.

this whole manufacturer debate started from YOUR comment that

"SMGs suck ... quick, someone call all the gun makers and tell them they are wasting their time."

Note that this is the comment I quoted in message #324092

Second "SMGs suck because they aren't generally fielded" is a statement I never made. I did point to how the militaries of the world were not deploying SMGs in the same manner they did in WW 2, but that BECAUSE OF them not being good, it doesn't CAUSE them to not be good.

If anyone is playing fast and loose with the truth, it is you.


Quote:

- without the slightest consideration what parameters a general issue firearm that a grunt carries at all times needs to have versus a specialized tool for close quarters. Only in your latest round of essays do you acknowledge that mil and police SF would be the applicable units to evaluate this.
I do NOT acknowledge that mil and police SF would be the applicable units to evaluate this. They frequently don't have a choice. I think that looking at what the best CBQ trained military units use is a good way of determining what they think is best. The military often makes decisions on what guy to by on criteria OTHER THAN what is best. Price plays a point. Often militaries become a self-feeding entity, and must turn to outside groups for advancement. Often outside groups are much more informed. What special forces troops use in CQB will be enlightening, but it will not be an end-all. The military selects a weapon because it recognizes it's capabilities. A weapon does not BECOME capable because it is selected by the military.

PS:

Quote:

I don't doubt that carbines are equal to slightly superior to SMGs in CQC on a case by case basis, but the absolute, unrestricted and universal superiority you proclaim for the whole class is mildly ridiculous.


Okay, I never stated that CARBINES are equal to or slightly superior to SMGs in CQB. I have stated that SHORT BARRELED ASSAULT RIFLES are better than SMGs in CQB.

The Mosin

[Updated on: Tue, 20 August 2013 09:32] by Moderator

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