Home » MODDING HQ 1.13 » v1.13 Coding Talk » [IDEA] New Magazine System
| Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System[message #313081]
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Sat, 15 December 2012 02:47  
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| Flugente |
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Messages:3507
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany |
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I read through this entire thread yesterday, and we had a fruitful discussion on IRC today. There are still a lot of problems I still see with this whole idea. However, I will first outline what I'd assume to be the defacto current concept and then the (in my view) best way of coding, so that we are on common grounds.
Concept
The idea is to make magazines become attachments that can exist empty. Upon loading a gun, the magazine does not magically vanish, and upon unloading, it does not appear out of thin air. Unloading a gun retrieves the same magazine that one previously put in, no magical belt-to-mag conversion.
A magazine also has modifiers, like +-reliability.
A magazine can have bullets of different ammotypes (AP, HP, tracer, ... ) and different calibers (.38, 357, .50, 9mmx19, ...). A magazine has a maximum amount of bullets it can hold (and we would treat belts the same way, because infinitely long magazines are whack, hmmkay?).
Upon loading a gun with a magazine, some guns can 'overload', thus having one bullet in the chamber and a full magazine loaded. So a G36 could have one bullet in the chamber and a full 30-rnd mag loaded, thus giving it 31 rounds to fire. When reloading such a gun, the magazine would be replaced, but the bullet in the chamber would stay, thus greatly speeding up reloading time, as there is no need to cycle. Some guns can do this, other's can't.
Not all guns accept all magazines. Furthermore, not all guns of a caliber accept the same magazines (so a Steyr AUG might not accept M16-magazines, even though they both have the same caliber).
When shooting a gun with mixed ammotypes/calibers, each bullet should have its corresponding values. A magazine with a 4 AP, 1 Tracer round 'template' would have every 5th round be a tracer.
My view of coding this
A bullet in a magazine would be a small struct that defines its ammotype and caliber:
typedef struct
{
UINT8 uCalibre;
UINT8 uAmmoType;
} LOADED_BULLET;
The magazine would then have a dynamic list of these bullets:
That way only those bullets that actually exist in a magazine would take space, and we would not waste space reserved for bullets that aren't there, or even reserve space for bullets on objects that are not magazines at all... remember, every object in JA2 is of class OBJECTTYPE. Wether or not an object is a gun, a magazine or a T-Shirt is irrelevant as far as the game is concerned. They all take up the same amount of space. If we'd allow 200 attachments on objects, EVERY object would have to reserve space for those. ChrisL's mention about the 65KB ojects comes to mind.
Once a bullet would be fired, we would simply create a bullet depending on the LOADED_BULLET data of the first entry in the guns attached magazine's mBulletList, and then delete that entry. If, however, we really want to go with overloading magazines, we need a bullet in the gun and not the magazine - we would perform an intermediate step: Upon loading the gun, the first bullet of the magazine would be deleted and recreated in the gun's mBulletList. We would always fire that and simply reload that one from the magazine. mBulletList would become the 'chamber' so to speak.
Without a magazine, bullets would be 'loose rounds'. These wont fit into a gun directly - bullets belong into magazines, and magazines belong into guns. An item 'loose rounds' would be like the current ammo crates and consist of bullets of the same ammotype and caliber. The easy way to fill a magazine would be to simply drag the loose item on the magazine, which is then filled as far as possible.
The hard way is for mags with mixed calibers and ammotypes. We need something like the 'deduct money' dialogue, but multiple times - for every ammotype and caliber fitting the magazine that we currently have in our inventory. One would then, upon clicking, deduct 1,5,10,x bullets into the magazine.
Some guns that do not have magazines that one attaches, like revolvers or shotguns. The magazines are integral to the gun itself. So one would perform the procedure/dialogue described above for these guns.
Up to this point, everything would be doable, altough a loooot of work.
Remaining problems
- The idea of mixing calibers may sound neat, but it would, at the current state, be utterly meaningless. The only thing calibers currently do is limit which gun can take what magazine, and have different names. If you tell the M82 to be of calibre .38, it will happily be so, range and damage will be the same, as they only depend on the gun.
Seriously, why do people hammer at the magazine system, when the current way of calibers is way more out of line?
What should be done before even touching NMS should be a New Calibre System:
Every calibre has values for base damage, base range, and base accuracy. Ammo types stay roughly as they are. A gun gets values that modify a bullets values, so modifiers for range, damage, accuracy.
That way, an M16 can still hit longer and harder than an M4. At the same time, if it can magically shoot .38 (because the modder says so), the .38 bullets it shoots will fly farther than if they were shot from a revolver, but still less so than the 5.56 bullets it shoots.
This has numerous advantages in my view. For example, if one wanted to improve shotgun damage due to his personal preference, you'd only have to alter one value. - While the idea of having a separate bullet in the chamber may sound pretty neat, it will become pretty annoying. If I put a 30-rnd mag into a an M16, I would expect to be get a 30-rnd magazine if I unload it. And not having to unlaod it again somehow to get a single bullet that I then have to put into the magazine. Yes, I know this is exactly what happens if I load a gun and load a bullet, have done that myself, thank you. But this is insanely tedious.
What? Have a separate action to actually load the bullet into the chamber? Do you know how tedious this will become? Do you demand separate keys to control left and right foot movement during ego-shooters? Forget it
--half-schizophrenic rant is over--
- If a magazine is loaded with different ammotypes, how are you supposed to know what you are firing? A dialogue that displays every single bullet would be needed. Furthermore, do we even want that? This is unrealistic^2. If one loads a mag with bullets and then loads that, you have no way of seeing the bullets. No, see-through magazines do not let you view the chambered bullet. Take that, realism-lovers :armsfolded:
- Loading a mixed magazine will be tedious, both coding it and doing so. To even have a minimal degree of comfort, one 'd need a monster of dialogue, with insane amount of coding (at least with the dialogue system we are stuck with). 'Loading Templates' might ease that, but not much.
How is that whole loading business supposed to anyway? I would outright refuse to use a system where I have to load every magazine of every gun of every of the 32 mercs I have. This is like farming items, but less fun.
- Mixed mags would be useless given the current code. A bullet does not remember its ammotype. Currently, whenever a bullet hits something, we check who fired it, look at his weapon, determine what ammotype it currently uses, and use that. Can relatively easy be fixed by adding the ammotype to the bullet-structure, but is worth remembering.
- Add lots of pain for coders and modders everywhere due to the fact that the current system still has to coexist with this, which creates numerous headaches I don't even want to think about.
- This system is incompatible with OAS, as we only have 4 attachments there, and one would be needed for the magazine always. Though I'd say if someone is purist enough to demand to play with OAS, he will propably also skip this anyway. Not to mention true purists play with 2085, because back then, everything was better :rant2: :silly:
(No pun on newer forum members intended)
- As Bob mentioned it: odd stuff, like magazines loading LIFO, FILO or completely weird ways (Neostead), is always there to further complicate things. FILO and LIFO could be treated relatively easy though.
[Updated on: Sat, 15 December 2012 04:04] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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[IDEA] New Magazine System
By: Taro_M on Tue, 24 May 2011 11:50 |
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Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System
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Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System
By: Toneone on Tue, 24 May 2011 12:02 |
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Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System
By: Tue on Tue, 24 May 2011 12:23 |
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Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System
By: Kazuya on Tue, 24 May 2011 12:55 |
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Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System
By: Taro_M on Tue, 24 May 2011 13:09 |
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By: Taro_M on Tue, 24 May 2011 15:26 |
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By: Tue on Tue, 24 May 2011 15:34 |
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By: Sandro on Tue, 24 May 2011 16:19 |
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By: Taro_M on Tue, 24 May 2011 16:38 |
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By: Sandro on Tue, 24 May 2011 17:31 |
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By: Taro_M on Tue, 24 May 2011 17:52 |
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By: Taro_M on Tue, 24 May 2011 18:05 |
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By: Wil473 on Tue, 24 May 2011 20:12 |
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By: Taro_M on Tue, 24 May 2011 20:22 |
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Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System
By: Wil473 on Tue, 24 May 2011 21:05 |
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By: Wil473 on Tue, 24 May 2011 21:51 |
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By: Kazuya on Tue, 24 May 2011 22:16 |
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By: Kazuya on Tue, 24 May 2011 22:24 |
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By: Kazuya on Tue, 24 May 2011 22:26 |
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By: Taro_M on Tue, 24 May 2011 22:33 |
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By: Wil473 on Tue, 24 May 2011 22:56 |
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By: Taro_M on Tue, 24 May 2011 23:10 |
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By: Wil473 on Tue, 24 May 2011 23:59 |
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By: Taro_M on Wed, 25 May 2011 00:04 |
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By: Wil473 on Wed, 25 May 2011 00:08 |
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Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System
By: Taro_M on Wed, 25 May 2011 00:46 |
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By: Kazuya on Fri, 27 May 2011 18:06 |
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By: Taro_M on Fri, 27 May 2011 19:38 |
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Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System
By: Cell on Tue, 14 June 2011 20:43 |
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Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System
By: tais on Fri, 17 June 2011 18:11 |
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Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System
By: JMich on Thu, 23 June 2011 09:35 |
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Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System
By: Wil473 on Sat, 25 June 2011 00:08 |
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Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System
By: Cell on Sun, 17 July 2011 00:45 |
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Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System
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Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System
By: Cell on Sun, 17 July 2011 01:26 |
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Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System
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Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System
By: Wil473 on Mon, 18 July 2011 19:26 |
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Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System
By: Wil473 on Mon, 18 July 2011 22:42 |
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Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System
By: Wil473 on Tue, 19 July 2011 00:20 |
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Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System
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Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System
By: Wil473 on Wed, 20 July 2011 02:01 |
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Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System
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Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System
By: wolf00 on Sun, 11 September 2011 16:10 |
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Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System
By: Wil473 on Sun, 11 September 2011 17:53 |
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Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System
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Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System
By: Wil473 on Mon, 12 September 2011 22:57 |
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Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System
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Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System
By: wolf00 on Wed, 21 September 2011 21:59 |
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Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System
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Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System
By: usrbid on Mon, 09 April 2012 12:41 |
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Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System
By: Taro_M on Sun, 15 April 2012 20:32 |
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Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System
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Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System
By: Sandro on Thu, 13 December 2012 22:54 |
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Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System
By: The_Bob on Sat, 15 December 2012 01:21 |
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Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System
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Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System
By: The_Bob on Sat, 15 December 2012 02:23 |
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Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System
By: Flugente on Sat, 15 December 2012 02:47 |
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Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System
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Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System
By: The_Bob on Sat, 15 December 2012 15:10 |
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Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System
By: Sandro on Sat, 15 December 2012 18:20 |
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Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System
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Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System
By: Flugente on Sat, 15 December 2012 18:49 |
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Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System
By: wolf00 on Thu, 20 December 2012 12:50 |
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Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System
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Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System
By: wolf00 on Thu, 20 December 2012 13:22 |
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Re: [IDEA] New Magazine System
By: Taro_M on Sat, 29 December 2012 18:15 |
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Re: [IDEA] New Magazine System
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Re: [IDEA] New Magazine System
By: Flugente on Sun, 03 February 2013 01:09 |
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Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System
By: veedotja2 on Wed, 03 September 2014 20:38 |
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Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System
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Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System
By: Flugente on Thu, 04 September 2014 00:51 |
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Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System
By: veedotja2 on Thu, 04 September 2014 04:05 |
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Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System
By: Deleted. on Thu, 04 September 2014 11:03 |
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Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System
By: Flugente on Thu, 04 September 2014 13:19 |
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Re: [IDEA] New Ammunition System
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Re: [IDEA] New Magazine System
By: Deleted. on Thu, 04 September 2014 13:50 |
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Re: [IDEA] New Magazine System
By: grim on Thu, 04 September 2014 15:43 |
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Re: [IDEA] New Magazine System
By: Slax on Thu, 04 September 2014 17:01 |
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Re: [IDEA] New Magazine System
By: Flugente on Thu, 04 September 2014 23:04 |
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Re: [IDEA] New Magazine System
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Re: [IDEA] New Magazine System
By: grim on Fri, 05 September 2014 00:31 |
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Re: [IDEA] New Magazine System
By: Flugente on Fri, 05 September 2014 00:38 |
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Re: [IDEA] New Magazine System
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Re: [IDEA] New Magazine System
By: grim on Fri, 05 September 2014 02:36 |
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Re: [IDEA] New Magazine System
By: math3ws on Fri, 05 September 2014 02:46 |
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Re: [IDEA] New Magazine System
By: Deleted. on Fri, 05 September 2014 02:59 |
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Re: [IDEA] New Magazine System
By: Deleted. on Fri, 05 September 2014 10:51 |
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Re: [IDEA] New Magazine System
By: ormtnman on Fri, 05 September 2014 19:41 |
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Re: [IDEA] New Magazine System
By: smeagol on Fri, 05 September 2014 21:03 |
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Re: [IDEA] New Magazine System
By: Deleted. on Fri, 05 September 2014 21:12 |
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Re: [IDEA] New Magazine System
By: ormtnman on Fri, 05 September 2014 21:50 |
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Re: [IDEA] New Magazine System
By: Deleted. on Fri, 05 September 2014 22:06 |
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Re: [IDEA] New Magazine System
By: ormtnman on Fri, 05 September 2014 22:21 |
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Re: [IDEA] New Magazine System
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Re: [IDEA] New Magazine System
By: ormtnman on Fri, 05 September 2014 22:38 |
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Re: [IDEA] New Magazine System
By: Flugente on Sun, 14 September 2014 20:55 |
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Re: [IDEA] New Magazine System
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Re: [IDEA] New Magazine System
By: tais on Mon, 15 September 2014 18:17 |
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Re: [IDEA] New Magazine System
By: ormtnman on Wed, 17 September 2014 23:02 |
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Re: [IDEA] New Magazine System
By: ormtnman on Sun, 02 August 2015 05:20 |
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Re: [IDEA] New Magazine System
By: Flugente on Tue, 04 August 2015 22:11 |
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Re: [IDEA] New Magazine System
By: ormtnman on Wed, 05 August 2015 05:14 |
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Re: [IDEA] New Magazine System
By: ormtnman on Thu, 06 August 2015 05:53 |
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Re: [IDEA] New Magazine System
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Re: [IDEA] New Magazine System
By: ormtnman on Fri, 07 August 2015 07:08 |
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Re: [IDEA] New Magazine System
By: Deleted. on Fri, 07 August 2015 07:54 |
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Re: [IDEA] New Magazine System
By: math3ws on Fri, 07 August 2015 11:57 |
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Re: [IDEA] New Magazine System
By: ormtnman on Fri, 07 August 2015 15:54 |
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Re: [IDEA] New Magazine System
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Re: [IDEA] New Magazine System
By: ormtnman on Fri, 07 August 2015 16:52 |
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Re: [IDEA] New Magazine System
By: Deleted. on Tue, 04 August 2015 22:47 |
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