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Re: Community Wishlist for JA:F[message #325489] Sat, 21 September 2013 04:55 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Akodo Deathseeker is currently offline Akodo Deathseeker

 
Messages:104
Registered:March 2001
Location: St Paul, MN
Mauser

Body armor is different though, because once damaged and penetrated, most body armor becomes useless or at least significantly less protective. And all body armors deteoriate over time, depending on usage and climate. And the fewest of them can actually be mended and fixed up again, but always have to be discarded and replaced.
A punctured steel plate insert cannot be reforged, a shattered ceramic plate cannot be glued back together, a penetrated Kevlar fabric cannot really be stitched back together and regain its full strength.


Every time body armor gets hit, it should deteriorate. That deterioration should be permanent.

The question is, should armor value drop a little each time the armor deteriorates, or should it drop in stages, or should it give full protection until it finally hits junk status where it gives none.

I personally think dropping it's effectiveness in stages rather than in direct correlation to deterioration is best.

One thing that must also be kept in consideration when doing armor is how the system lines up with the health system. Just like armor doesn't really get to be shot at and be just fine after 'repair time' so to you can't get shot and then be fully fine in a few days after medical care.

If armor deteriorates too fast and too easily compared to health you can develop a system where it's better for the merc to leave his best armor off except for really hard fights because health is easier to recover than armor. That is wrong. In other games I've played health has been so easy to recover that ammo is more important. I'll risk exposing myself to sniper fire to determine where the sniper is, because getting shot 3-4 times is a less of a loss than 1 grenade is, which is wrong.

Quote:
I rather see this as a dual-value system.
You have one status value for general cleanliness and maintennance, which deteriorates with different speeds depending on gun type, climate and usage.
This one can always be raised from 0% to 100% by simple maintennance and repairs.

The second value represents a permanent wear&tear status, which cannot be fixed by normal means and drops permanently alongside the first value through usage and received damage. And it drops the faster, the lower the first value gets, raising the risk for catastrophical failure alongside. It could also be enhanced by additional status marks, ranging from broken to perfect, according to a certain % treshold. Once its status drops below that treshold, it permanently changes status and according denomination. Expert repairs may be able to improve the overall status to the upper maximum value for the current treshold, but not above, except maybe by using spare parts to replace key components. Maybe even a Fallout New Vegas like repair system would be thinkable, where you can scavenge parts from items of the same type to repair one more effectively?


I can see a dual system. Obviously no amount of cleaning is going to off-set an item being caught in a grenade blast. I think you could do a dual system with an excellent-good-fair-poor-junk system is applied to EVERYTHING.

I think two different bars on every item (like health and mana!) may be too much.

For consumables, a bar showing how much is left in the canteen or first aid kit is good. For guns I'd have a bar to show how in need of maintenance the item is.

For most other things I'd tag the Excellent-good-fair-poor-junk to show when an item's effectiveness is lowered (and signal that it is time to repair it, if it is an item that can be repaired)


Quote:
The key to this system is: the better you take care of your equipment, the slower it will deteoriate through usage.
You may be able to fix a broken or heavily worn gun up well enough to function again, but you will never be able to make it work as good as new. Wear and tear should have a permanent component with limited repairability, in order to make ruggedness, reliability and quality a much more important tactical factor for equipment choice.

Prime example: M-16 vs. AK47. A well maintanied and pristine M-16 may be more ergonomic and accurate than the AK, but the AK will take a lot more punishment and neglect, almost never fail and be much less affected by the environment, whilst the M-16 will greatly suffer from less than optimal conditions and be generally much more maintenance-heavy to field.

We are talking of a scenario and timeframe, where the most available guns will be Vietnam-era stuff and older, with only very few significantly more modern models and higher quality components.

Also, this permanent wear system will force the player to change equipment more frequently, instead of allowing him to acquire it once and use it for the rest of the game, as long as he only has the repair ability. Thus also allowing for another factor to balance out the ingame economy and item progression

Both values influence reliability and accuracy. Because even a relatively well maintained but worn out gun will always be less reliable and accurate than a brand new one, but a badly maintained new gun may become just as unreliable and inaccurate than a well maintained worn gun, until it is properly taken care of.


I am still skeptical of this.

I don't agree with some fundamental underlying assumptions.

Items wear out, agreed.

ALL items can go from being in good functional order to bad functional order through direct damage such as being caught in a grenade blast.

Some items are going to degrade through normal usage, such things as batteries wearing out, or boots coming apart.

However, a lot of gear is designed so that with proper maintenance it will last forever. In wars it doesn't go to junk status because it gets used to much but because there isn't the time or opportunity to give it proper maintenance.

For example, binoculars. They aren't going to drop in quality because you look through them all the time, they are going to drop in quality because they are being carried around in the wet jungle. Ye, in some small way every time your hand grasps them to put them up to your eyes tiny amounts of finish and metal flake off, but this is so small as to be inconsequential. A wood chopping axe gets dull and needs to be sharpened. Yes, sharpening removes a tiny bit of metal from the axe blade and eventually can be sharpened to nothing, but in reality lumberjacks who use an axe every day for long hours would go YEARS before totally wearing out the head.

Firearms are the same. Yes, in theory, the barrel gets a little wear with every shot. However it's like the axe head wearing away, the amount of usage to cause enough wear that it would have an impact on combat performance would be astronomical.

Some items should be the exact opposite of consumables, with proper maintenance (and as long as they don't get directly damaged by being caught in a grenade blast or being accidentally dropped out of a helicopter) they will last effectively forever. Binoculars, axe blades, guns, radios (but not their batteries) and similar items would fall in this category.

[Updated on: Sat, 21 September 2013 05:01] by Moderator

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