Home » PLAYER'S HQ 1.13 » JA2 Complete Mods & Sequels » JA2 Renegade Republik » quasi-missionbased campaigns. Concepts and general discussion
| quasi-missionbased campaigns. Concepts and general discussion[message #126946]
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Fri, 28 April 2006 20:20 
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| the scorpion |
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Messages:1834
Registered:September 2004
Location: CH |
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recently, i have come across various players that said they don`t have enough time or don`t feel enough motivation to finish large scale mods like Ja2: vengeance (or even bigger in size: UC)
now i was thinking of various ways to allow the player to have more shortermed action but not without a proper game world setting and a nice story surrounding
this thread is intended for anybody who would like to see quasi-mission based action of some sort and what his thoughts about this is and how this would be best implemented. Remember thought that i cannot code, so i can`t take requests on how to rebuild the ja2 engine
my idea of this would be:
In the game world and story setting of Ja2 RR, the player could go full scale by default, but could also decide to chose one of various "Missions" or "assignements"
he would get a specific briefing and a new zip that would extract necessary data to the data folder
after doing so, the player can still go full-scale and enjoy all features of the mod but could equally well decide to finish it fast by fulfilling the assignement he chose, be it an escort NPC mission or a kill person x or bring item y or whatever mission
i hope nobody that had a way superior concepts feels dissapointed by the very simplistic approach i am currently stuck with
plus, i would like to know if that will be worth the hassle, i mean, i would only do it if i notice that there is enough demand for such a feature
please, anybody interested, share your thoughts with me 
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Sergeant Major
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| Re: quasi-missionbased campaigns. Concepts and general discussion[message #126949]
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Tue, 02 May 2006 22:17 
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| kropotkin |
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Messages:47
Registered:May 2005
Location: lake titicaca |
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Well first of all. NO Jagged Alliance title ever offered this 'total freedom' nonsense. In JA1, 99% of all items in the country were pre-determined. No shops, and missions guided the player to key locations. JA:DG had the first merchant that added a bit of variety. Then JA2 was very similar to JA1, there was a definite order the first few cities had to be conquered, but not all of them were really necessary.
As to UC, it is quite definitely the worst mod I've ever seen for any game. It was done without any respect to how the game actually works and completely unbalanced it, besides destroying the storyline. The best solution to the whole 'progress question' was probably in Wildfire. But, we've all seen the whiners who found they couldn't take the airport first thing and started cheating again, with the 'liberators patch' and whatever else.
One possible solution would be coding in much stronger level scaling. Powerful full-size weapons will only show up when so and so many cities are conquered and the gang has reached at least charlevel X. Campaign designer will have to make an estimation as to the total bodycount or experience gain and balance character progress speed accordingly. "Mission-based" or not, stronger structuring can be introduced in many ways.
I know that there's a sizable minority who will always play the game "mod-squad style" with cheat sectors full of extra equipment and maxed-out mercs, but in the Jagged Alliance case thats really like pouring ketchup over a five-star dinner.
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Corporal
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| Re: quasi-missionbased campaigns. Concepts and general discussion[message #126950]
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Tue, 02 May 2006 23:34
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| the scorpion |
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Messages:1834
Registered:September 2004
Location: CH |
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shirke`s approach is already more sophisticated than mine. However the problem is additional work/ hassle to get a high number of quests tied to NPC`s. Plus, we could only have missions that require no new game in between.
i mean, using an external adding/ overwriting data file system would allow for extreme versatility. The problem would be to have mission following up one each other
@Kropotkin
the progress of WHAT exactly was best in wildfire?
i think there are lots of question of personal preference involved.
But you would opt for a stronger "structuring"? in which way?
storywise? enemy equipment/ level/ troops numbers wise?
This does not explictily ask for mission based gameplay. You liked the wildfire solution uf upping numbers of enemies in one city and restrict them from dropping their gear to force the player to attack a different city first?
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Sergeant Major
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| Re: quasi-missionbased campaigns. Concepts and general discussion[message #126951]
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Wed, 03 May 2006 02:30
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 Shrike |
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Messages:58
Registered:December 2002
Location: Belgium |
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Quote:Originally posted by the scorpion:
However the problem is additional work/ hassle to get a high number of quests tied to NPC`s. Plus, we could only have missions that require no new game in between. I'm not sure what you mean by that last phrase. However, how about the following: make the game world so that there's a big incentive to follow up on quests, because they will "unlock" weapon and armor types. A mission could be a raid on ammo dumps, a weapon factory, rescueing a rebel leader to get to some new recruitable merc's, ... etc.
Combine this with a tight control of what gets dropped by the "standard" enemy platoons (non-quest platoons) and make the sectors towards the end of the game so hard they'd become virtually impossible to beat without first collecting some quest rewards.
For added variation, different factions might offer different quest types and rewards (e.g. Nato vs. former Warchau Pact equipment).
All still very conceptual and just an exercise in exploring the limits of the existing game of course. :animread: I have no idea what amount of work would be required to make this work, but I'm guessing UB might be a more suitable platform. Unfortunately, that would probably exclude the use of the 1.13 goodies, wouldn't it?
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Corporal
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| Re: quasi-missionbased campaigns. Concepts and general discussion[message #126952]
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Wed, 03 May 2006 04:34
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| JohnnyK3886 |
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Messages:25
Registered:February 2006
Location: VA |
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Seems to me like unbalancing the game near the end, like you propose, would make the side quests more of a linear progression to the end of the game, instead of actually being a side quest.
You know?
The idea of side quests is that they're not reaaaallly necessary to completing the game, they're just fun, and you usually get something cool when one's completed.
I think it'd be cool to see a mission-based campaign, but not all the way through. I've always liked the idea of having several ways to approach the first few days, which would ultimately shape the final few moments of the game, IE, the choices you make in your assaults would determine the setup and behavior of the enemy during the last days of the campaign. (If you took the military base in Vanilla JA2 by day 5, for example, then they'd have fewer elites, because since the very beginning, there's been noplace to train them. AND nobody to train them, since god knows you should've shot Conrad in his big stupid face.)
Back to point, if we did see sidequests in the game, in the form of mission-based progression, I'd like it not only to be rewarding to the player on a monetary level (or in an equipment gain), but also, have the completed quests change something about the game world - that way it wouldn't seem hollow.
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Private 1st Class
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| Re: quasi-missionbased campaigns. Concepts and general discussion[message #126954]
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Thu, 04 May 2006 00:14
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| the scorpion |
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Messages:1834
Registered:September 2004
Location: CH |
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yes. UB is out of the question. i don`t think i can do it any better than B2B. They had a team, had great mappers and carried out a nice storyline. You can do that using UB, but the lack of roaming patrols, town loyalty and so on leads me away from UB. You can do very few real quests there, bring item x to person z and so on.
no what i mean tby the fact that the player selects a mission "before" actually starting a new game means that virtually everything can be changed for one single mission.
that means if the player choses to play a short campaign (missions would be described as short/ middle/ long however) of only a coupld of maps, i can have the zip of this particuliar campaign extrac new maps, new tabledata, new prof.dat new faces lots of goodies to the data directory. I can`t do any of this in the course of a game.
This is what i mean by "more versatile"
on the other hand, after each mission the game would end, you restore the data folder and would have to choose a new mission (or play the full mod)
it would be for players that lose motivation on long term assignements, plus for those who would be unsure if it is worth playing the mod, they could play a mission like a DEMO and get to see many NPC`s in few maps and lots of enemy and gear (which would be scattered all over the country in the whole mod)
like a quick-action mode. mercenaries come with good equipment, enemies as well, few maps, tough fight, fast and good reward.
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Sergeant Major
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| Re: quasi-missionbased campaigns. Concepts and general discussion[message #126955]
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Fri, 05 May 2006 01:21
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| kropotkin |
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Messages:47
Registered:May 2005
Location: lake titicaca |
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This is really old stuff.. but there used to be some UB campaigns called "Drug Lord" and "Tank Attack" or something like that. I think both were about a dozen sectors, and you went from pistols up to full equipment with green armor and everything in that time. The final sectors were the heavy fortress type assaults on maxed-out enemies.
Something like that is what I would consider the optimal 'entertainment format' for JA2. Even SOG'69 is a touch too long, with too many enemies for my taste
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Corporal
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| Re: quasi-missionbased campaigns. Concepts and general discussion[message #126956]
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Sat, 06 May 2006 23:33
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| AZAZEL |
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Messages:750
Registered:February 2004 |
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I'm against this mission-based concept. 
Not because it is a big technical enterprise or complication, but I think this concept essentially alters the very concept of the JA2 we came to love.
Yeah,yeah,we get older,have less time.It's probably the future of JA2 modding,with superconfigurable 1.13, and "instant action".
Nevertheless,I know I'd still go for the full package,and maybe reload a save when I want to replay some stage of the game.
As for the overall length of the campaign, I agree that "shorter,more intense" is the answer; UC and even Vengeance were a little too long.Big B_MAP.pcx also seems give a modder a slight tendency to repetition.
BTW,remember that frequently encountered syndrome when players reaching Meduna had already made their statement,had built their perfect team,had "seen it all" and lacked the motivation to finish?
Maybe that contains a very useful hint on the optimum overall length of the campaign and wideness of the country...
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| Re: quasi-missionbased campaigns. Concepts and general discussion[message #126957]
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Mon, 08 May 2006 06:26
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| the scorpion |
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Messages:1834
Registered:September 2004
Location: CH |
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from both postings i take that it is rather the size of large scale mods that is problematic than lacking mission.objectives?
it has mainly to do with motivation loss during late game stages and time constraints?
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Sergeant Major
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| Re: quasi-missionbased campaigns. Concepts and general discussion[message #126958]
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Mon, 08 May 2006 22:37
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| LegacyOfApathy |
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Messages:101
Registered:September 2004 |
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I've been gone for sooooo long, I thought this board was dead!
I can't really understand what it is, but in Urban Chaos, I have a hard time working up enough motivation to complete the first city sector, let alone the rest of the game.
Now don't get me wrong! I super appreciate all the time and work that went into it. And I loved how you brought back Skitz and Reuban (I can remember my first conversation with Skitz.. Forget that wannabe Razor , Skitz scares me silly o.o)
***
I kinda restarted that game more times than it makes sense.
Even though I thought her to be an evil person in JA1 (when I saved her, she wasn't even in any real danger! And her odd smirk at the end of the game after most of my team died..)
I still feel really down about hunting her down.. and wiping out the crooked cops.
Also, I just didn't understand the weapons.. I immediately went from the very short range Markov, to the Bizon sub-machine gun with 66 armor peircing rounds that kills fast.
I could never really tell what weapons I was "supposed" to be using at the time. Important to me, since I didn't wanna feel like I'm cheating.
Wasn't an Issue in Unfinished Business. You start with semi-decent weapons (hopefully) and after you capture the one town. You prepare your weapons and Regen Boosters and Mercs for the last hurrah. Never did finish it. Died in the tunnels underneath the giant fan....
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I deeply enjoyed SOG'69. I mean, really really enjoyed it. I got past the river of death and the ambush sector before being distracted. Now that I've finished Final Fantasy 7, I'm going to go back and complete it ^^.
This game, just feels so "real" to me.. And its easy enough for me to understand.. I also enjoy how even at the endgame with my Nuc Nom coated boonie hat, and T-52 vest and groin protector. And with my RPKs and molotovs. I died really easily ^^.
I later went on to research just about all the stuff I saw in that game but Gasp! I'm going off topic.
SOG'69 was huge, it had about 30 really heavily armed enemies in each sector, and the computer was far better at using the RPG-7 and Molotov Cocktails than I was. but I had the time of my life! My squad in that game is far better equipped, more organized, and higher experienced than my squads in all the other JA games.. Even Flo and Biff and Bull and Razor and characters I don't use very often fufilled some very important objectives.
I also actually liked all of the "points of no return." It really made you think ahead.
Oh oh oh! I also loved the firebases. Heck! Even the enemies themselves were loaded with supplies. Thats how I got my "Ultimate weapon" RPK and all the ammo for it.
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I can go on for a completely unreasonable amount of time about SOG'69. But I'll breifly touch on Dedrianna Lives.
That too was an excellent game! Granted, it was basically JA2 with a whole lot of new stuff. And that was enough for me. I was already familar with the territory, and getting used to the new characters and weapons took no time at all.
Since I had that "early rebels recuritment patch". I had Miguel, Slay, Jubilee, and Maddog on my team before day 3. So this is the first time I used only my IMP and the locals. ^^
(And, since everyone worked for me for free. It didn't take very long at all for me to amass $200,000 and go on massive shopping sprees at Bobby Ray's website every morning.)
I liberated the Pulse Rifle and Barret Sniper Rifle from the gunshop in San Mona.. I had to wipe out most of the city when they went hostile on me, but it was sooo worth it. As soon as I conquered Drassen, I could buy 10 cases of pulse rifle ammo from bobby rays.
Ammo was never an issue.
Also, there was a whole heck of a lot of bases way out in the boonies. I was suprised at how thoughtful the game designers were! After the first few, I checked just about every "wilderness" sector for buildings.
(first time Regen boosters became a part of my strategy. In the past, they were too rare).
Now I'm at the end game.... The enemies use Barret Sniper rifles and weapons on par with my pulse rifle. When I get killed in one shot by the unseen sniper. I am delighted! Rather than annoyed.
It really makes you have to think harder!
PMS. No offense to those who like Jubilee. But I used her to absorb those deadly shots that were ment for Slay and Maddog. Its amazing! She runs in front of them and they croach behind her.
She lives. In fact. When she had -50 health, she was still killing enemies right and left and spotting so that the team snipers could still hit enemies..
***
Well, shoot. I forgot what I was here to say. For me, Urban Chaos just didn't hold the same magic for me that these games did.
The weapons were too diffrent, and so were the characters stats. Somewhat understandable, given that they've been out of business for awhile.. But I liked old Flo more than Anaya.. and Razor when he had like 50 marksmanship and knifing skills.
And Bobby Rays seems to carry very little ammo. Either that, or DL carried more than usual amounts of equipment.
Also. I dunno. Maybe if it weren't for those other things, I'd be able to focus on the story more easily.
It does feel sad to wipe out someone we once helped.
And also the police and so called civillians.. Sure the hicks would hurt you if you messed with their property, and the gunrunners didn't like you taking their stuff either.. But people generally had a live and let live policy.
30 redshirts and or elites in each sector is plenty of enemy activity for me  . And I won't be guessing about whos friend or foe either.
***
UC wasn't too long.. It just overwhelmed me with the changes. and I wasn't really super-motivated by the story.
I'll still probably give it a good go, once I finish up DL and SOG.
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Sergeant
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| Re: quasi-missionbased campaigns. Concepts and general discussion[message #126959]
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Tue, 09 May 2006 12:35
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| DaethWalker |
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Messages:98
Registered:September 2003
Location: Rocky Point, NC |
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I don't have a problem with the size of the original game or any of the follow up mods.
The problem I always had was what came in between the beginning and the end.
The original games and most mods all start oput prety good. Start in sector a, complete missions 1-5, get some money and a few better weapons and armor. Because of restriction of funds, you had to start out short handed with just the basics in firearms and armor. This was great.
But, by the time you had conquered your 2nd or 3rd city/town, it was obvious that you were basically just repeating the process over and over again. The only difference being that your team was getting stronger and stronger, while the enemy was hardly getting better at all.
Also, there was no real reward/incentive for conquering those towns, with the exception of taking out the Sam sites to free up air space, the only real reward was money and an item or 2 that eventually showed up for sale from merchants anyways.
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Corporal 1st Class
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| Re: quasi-missionbased campaigns. Concepts and general discussion[message #126960]
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Wed, 10 May 2006 08:11
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| JohnnyK3886 |
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Messages:25
Registered:February 2006
Location: VA |
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I agree that the length wasn't a problem. That's what's fun about the JA games; they're big and immersive. The mission-based set would be interesting, but in my opinion, only in the beginning to middle of the game, wherein you should be able to branch out however you want.
Ideally, though, the mission based campaigns should ALL be side quests, and the outcomes of each should be reflected in the game world. (Let's say you can do several missions for Faction A, which involve hurting/killing members of Faction B; Faction B should then either shoot on sight or hire you for less, with a tendency to give you crappier assignments, for all the damage you've done in the past.)
Does that make sense? O_o
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Private 1st Class
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| Re: quasi-missionbased campaigns. Concepts and general discussion[message #126961]
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Wed, 10 May 2006 09:44
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| AZAZEL |
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Messages:750
Registered:February 2004 |
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Well,I don't have a problem with the size of the original game,either.(although I might have a problem with how the game is played, generally).And excessive repetition.
Mission objectives is what you must keep your focus on.That doesn't mean you have to bang at least 5 towns and the SAM sites in 24 hours like I usually do in regular JA2. Do you guys like to kill 32 (stupid)enemies in a sector?Frigging waiste of the time.But killing them in some 3-4 successive maps might be allright.
It's setting an objective(different each time) and achieving it that motivates me.And getting to explore a beautiful new map.And a coherent environment.
For the items: personally I was always more interested in the building of a new/different team, getting to know a new NPC or mercenary than on getting (new)weapons.I don't understand this obsession for item diversity,or for realism."Yeah!Gimme more,more,more!" As long as the tools of the trade are not crappy or ugly I can live with them, and the original number of them.
STORY in a new mod is very important for me!It doesn't have to be a complicated intrigue.
When,years ago, I first finished Wildfire,I was charmed by the maps and weapons(the graphics,not their deadliness) and said to myself:Christ,this beautiful and dangerous,remade, Arulco deserved another story!
You know,IF I ever release that "blitz reconquista" mod of mine, it will be another Arulcan story,one year after Miguel's death, when a military junta has taken power."General","Sargeant" and a druglord in San Mona provide the bad heroes. The "new" rebels(Jenny,Vince,Shank,Matt) are totally surounded in Estoni.You must be there by sunset-arrangements have been made, and Maddog expects your team somewhere between Omerta and Cambria with transportation.Interfere in the fight and protect them, or they will die.Or revenge them-"general" must die anyway.Conquer the SAM sites immediately or they won't get supplies.AIM pilots you through(mails).You now know the field,and have more money plus splendid equipment now-let's show them what we are made of!
Even considered eliminating side-quests, to enable exclusive focus on one goal:speed.Good timing and coordination of independent teams is what I'm after.
(Except the maps of the rebuilt Arulco, got almost every technicality out of the way-including enemies using almost exclusively good russian equipment,and pistols more rare than high-tech western goodies(!). Drassen militias uses AKs in their first ever fight now. Made even a compilation of WF and Vengeance maps to provide inspiration for whatever my maps will finally look like,though I have serious doubts they will ever look that good...)
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| Re: quasi-missionbased campaigns. Concepts and general discussion[message #126962]
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Wed, 10 May 2006 17:13
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| the scorpion |
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Messages:1834
Registered:September 2004
Location: CH |
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i am trying to understand your concerns... so repetitive fighting (too many enemies in one map for instance) and lack of interesting objectives/ missions were main problems? or do i get this wrong?
modding ja2 is rather limited when it comes to quests. You can alter them to large extents (opposing to what other people say) but it remains very liable to bugs or glitches
i will be trying to provide a completely new story in a completely new setting.
from how i understand most of your postings, there should be more objectives, but not necessarily "technical" mission-based gameplay?
@Azazel
sounds doing quests for Ethnic faction 1, religious faction 2, ruthless warlord 3, mafya factions 4 and 5 and enterprise 6 sound like a beginning to you?
the idea is, that even in lategame certain decisions in favour of one or another group/ assignement can be made, which would alter the endgame gameplay. (this is not easy to implement so very speculative info thus far)
i have however, not quite implemented the negative consequences from other factions towards the player when he is too nice to other factions
ja2 is very limited there. One idea of mine is to restrict the mafya arms trader and enable him after quests for a faction have been made
and having one group hostile very fast would be not so great because the player couldnt do quests for them.
I hope i can soon test a first assassination quests, where the idea is to kill NPC X without NPC Y noticing it. Otherwise you`ll have npc Y`s factions hostile against you
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Sergeant Major
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| Re: quasi-missionbased campaigns. Concepts and general discussion[message #126967]
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Sat, 13 May 2006 22:33
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| the scorpion |
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Messages:1834
Registered:September 2004
Location: CH |
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ja2 uses this method to some extend
quests effect town loyalty and town loyalty effects income
i like the option to tie quests to small rewards, be it financial or rare items or the possibility to hire a certain RPC or trade wuth certain dealers
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Sergeant Major
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| Re: quasi-missionbased campaigns. Concepts and general discussion[message #126968]
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Thu, 22 June 2006 10:27
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| Kaiden |
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Messages:502
Registered:September 2003 |
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Quote:Originally posted by Shrike:
Well, I liked Deadly Games back in the JA1 days, so yeah, this would be a nice option for anybody craving for mission based gameplay. Maybe something could be scripted to have a Carmen like character offer new quests upon completion of a previous one?
The main challenge would be: how do you tie a number of (side)quests into a compelling storyline which would encourage the player to go on doing them, instead of just winning the game in the classical way?
Maybe there's a way to unlock the locations themselves based on quest triggers? "JA2: Deadlier games"
I spent about 2 months coding this before I realized that without a good "modder", it was all for nothing, so I posted here on the forums, just knowing someone would take interest.
After months of no response, I canned it, and have since moved on, and in moving to a new computer, my source is long gone.
However, if there were a coder (or two) and a modder (or two) serious about doing something like this, here's a breif description from my notes which I still have and dug out last night so I could type this long-winded post
1. Choose a "home-base" sector, probably A9 or B13 whichever is easier to code (See below). This sector is where your main team is located, you start the game here, you buy your goods here, etc...
2. Choose your "Mission breifing" method, options include E-mail, AIM video Phone/MERC Video phone method (requires more modding and more coding but would really bring the game to life in same fashion of old Gus giving the breifs), or NPC in Starting Sector.
3. Choose your Shop, Bobby Rays Online, Change to Deliver goods to A9, or make B13 starting sector and change the "Landing Zone" to B13. Or go with Tony, or Devin, or Mickey for nostalgia, could cut any new dialog for Mickey from the original DG if needed. Shopkeeper inventory needs to be changed based on the choice and progress level needs to be tied to your missions as opposed to progress through the main game.
4. Missions:
A. Clear Sector (possible without much coding).
B. Retreive Item (possible without much coding).
C. Assassinate Enemy (possible without much coding).
D. Destroy "Target" (would require more coding, could possibly use "Tank" type enemies with different tiles and a combination of "C")
E. Recruit or Kill (would be possible without much code).
F. Rescue Hostage (Possible without much coding).
G. Survey Sector without being caught (Possible without much coding).
5. Training, Healing and Resting:
A. Leave mission sectors Hostile after all enemies are dead, would have to manually pick up items in tactical, but would not be able to rest, train, etc...
B. Could remove strategic screen completely and automatically transport mercs back to home sector when mission is done (not a great option).
C. 24-48 hours should pass between missions, granting about the same improvements as you'd see in DG, or make it 36 hours so that battles take place at various times of the day, giving night ops a chance.
D. Home Sector only has one exit, restricted to ONE squad, the exit is tied to alternating mission sectors (either campaign or random) Exiting the Sector would start the next mission.
E. Allow 18+ mercs and no vehicles, but only one squad can go on a mission at a time.
6. Money would be made for each mission, based on mission difficulty, there are no mines, so completing a mission is the only source of cash, other than finding cash during a mission.
7. Remove all Strategic AI (ala UB), don't need it.
8. Could theoretically tie multiple sectors together for "One" mission. But most would be single sector missions.
9. Sector Map would need to be grey'ed out, unused, but the Merc interface on the left would still be needed to determine who is training and who is on the squad ready to go. Although an alternative would be to go straight from Tactical to the laptop, bypassing the strategic screen, and unfortunately force the player to use the right-click context menus to select what each merc is doing (training, squad, etc...)
10. NPC's could probably be re-used, however, because of the nature, you only need one merchant NPC, and other Non-quest related NPC's could become quest related NPCs with minor coding, probably major modding and new voices though.
And that about sums it up, using the 1.13 engine makes some of these tasks much easier now, and it provides all the cool new features.
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| Re: quasi-missionbased campaigns. Concepts and general discussion[message #126969]
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Fri, 23 June 2006 05:28
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| the scorpion |
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Messages:1834
Registered:September 2004
Location: CH |
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There was a couple of modmakers getting together and starting such a concept. I guess you`ve talked to some of them too during the last half a year. I however haven`t heard anything from that project despite they initially wanted to have me in there too.
Sad you don`t have your source anymore...
i apparently never saw your posting or thought it was impossible (probably the latter) but if you say that much of it wouldn`t require much coding, this gets very interesting indeed.
i`d need to catch up one the project team that started to work on this and see what they`re doing. And we`d need some modmakers. I can assure you that ja2 rr and ja2 1.13 are creating a lot of stuff (be it all those weapons or the custom faces) so material will be available soon to allow some missions. Now we`re both kneedeep in our projects so i guess we`d need a project team. people would like it and contribute, the question is about the modmakers. Where to find them, how to unite them and how to organize it
as usual, my enthusiamsm is my first reaction...
what do you think, would it be enough to basicly re-use existing stuff (namely maps, guns, faces) for that project so the main task would be the coding and setting together of the pieces to get things going? That would greatly reduce modmaker side time requirements and put the pressure on the coders
if you ask me, there is a chance to get such a project started if some other coders can work on a regular basis with you on this. For modmaker side material (maps, faces, scripts) i can`t be a very supportive role while making ja2 rr at the same time, but once the material from ja2 rr is released, i can contribute all of it
Plus UC material, WF material, or from other mods can be used to arrange this. would make sense to have a large library of nicely documented files for such an endevour. I`m very interested on your thoughts on this. it would be a promising concept. however, i think 1.13 has to reach a certain state of stability and externalisation to be used as versatile as necessary. In particuliar the strategic map. simply adding new sublevels would allow to have indoor missions where the player can`t just leave a sector anyway. Being able to set roads, garrisons, sector accesibility, number and type of enemies in each sector would be an absolute requirement for it.
I really hope we can follow up on this.
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Sergeant Major
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| Re: quasi-missionbased campaigns. Concepts and general discussion[message #126970]
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Fri, 23 June 2006 09:09
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| Kaiden |
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Messages:502
Registered:September 2003 |
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It might be best to wait and see just how much 1.13 ends up externalizing, by then I might even be able to nab a copy of .NET required to use any version of 1.13 from this point forward.
However, the mission based 1.13 would have to be a branch, LOTS of hard coding will be required to get it to work, however, it will in the end be just as moddable as 1.13 is at the point the branch started.
The Hard-coding would really be regarding Strategic AI, and forcing players to only train/rest their inactive mercs in the "Home" sector, and other things specific to mission based gameplay.
We would definitely want to tweak the sector limits, and of course, being a branch of 1.13 we could also do things like restrict to 800x600 or greater, allow 8 mercs per team, and increase the number of hireable mercs to at least 20 (no vehicles in mission based).
The missions themselves would require very little hardcoding, I mean, so your boss tells you to assassinate a terrorist, there are what 6? There are already checks in the game for when you meet one of the terrorists and when you've killed them. Same with retreiving items, like the diskette for instance.
And we can duplicate what we need, we only need one shopkeeper, so turn the rest of the prof's for shopkeepers into copies of terrorists, or escort NPC's.
You are kind of limited to the kinds of quests that are in the game already, unless you're ready for ALOT of coding. But that's still about 7 different mission types, DG didn't have much more than that.
All in all, you really have to delete more code than you have to add to make it work for a single release Mod, but another Modder could come along, and without much coding (or any for that matter) replace all your maps and NPC's change the story-line etc... and have a new mod. No more difficult than what you're doing for RR.
And that's if we didn't externalize anything extra and used 1.13 as it is now for our code base.
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| Re: quasi-missionbased campaigns. Concepts and general discussion[message #126971]
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Fri, 23 June 2006 19:28
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| the scorpion |
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Messages:1834
Registered:September 2004
Location: CH |
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i think you`re right about the externalisations. i think the quest stuff is trickier but allows for much more than you`d think. Wait for ja2 rr to display some new quest action, there are lots of triggers in the npc scripts that can be set on/ off one time so there is much more possible than just clean sector/ assassinate person/ retrieve item
i think what would be tricky a well is how to determine what mission is triggered, how to define that it has been succesful and all that. That would have to be coded from scratch, as well as player funds (if we eliminate funds through mining/ selling stuff to tony, alt-LMB)
we`d have to get rid of roaming patrols, we`d have to find a better way of placing new items in the map files (talking about an editor supporting the xmls) and much more
however, as i mentioned above, if the strategic map was externalised to the extend to define enemy placements and accesibility of each sector, we could easily separate sectors from each other making them inaccesible (means you only get here by teleport)and have, say, 2-4 sector long mini campaigns. IMO, if we need a story/ mission for each sector, that`s too much. But what could be done is for instance isolating a city. Now the mission is to conquer the city, free a hostage (EPC) and convince the head miner (i don`t see why regular income should be disabled if the player has to rest anyway so there will be time compression. You could hardcode that mines will run out fast or the player loses too much loyalty if he is just waiting for more cash (yes, loyality doesn`t need to be deleted either as it won`t drop due to no counterattacks and is used in various npc scripts and game progress triggers)
oh, btw i contacted the programmer of the project i mentioned above so don`t be surprised if he`ll knock on your door
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Sergeant Major
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| Re: quasi-missionbased campaigns. Concepts and general discussion[message #126972]
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Sat, 24 June 2006 11:46
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| Kaiden |
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Messages:502
Registered:September 2003 |
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Quote:Originally posted by the scorpion:
however, as i mentioned above, if the strategic map was externalised to the extend to define enemy placements and accesibility of each sector, we could easily separate sectors from each other making them inaccesible (means you only get here by teleport)and have, say, 2-4 sector long mini campaigns. IMO, if we need a story/ mission for each sector, that`s too much. But what could be done is for instance isolating a city. Now the mission is to conquer the city, free a hostage (EPC) and convince the head miner (i don`t see why regular income should be disabled if the player has to rest anyway so there will be time compression. You could hardcode that mines will run out fast or the player loses too much loyalty if he is just waiting for more cash (yes, loyality doesn`t need to be deleted either as it won`t drop due to no counterattacks and is used in various npc scripts and game progress triggers)
oh, btw i contacted the programmer of the project i mentioned above so don`t be surprised if he`ll knock on your door That data has already been externalized, just not in the coming release  RoWa21 had too much to do, and a ton of bugs, etc... So he did not add that code... I however, still have the modified source files for that, Judge made the change for the UC-1.13 hyrbid and I asked him if we could incorporate them into the main release.
So we can say which sectors connect to which other sectors.
As far as mining, if we really want to go the DG way, then you can't compress time. What I was going to do, is say you have 18 mercs, 6 of them leave for a mission, the other 12 are at home, resting or training, or repairing your guns (ala DG). In the time it takes your primary squad to go on the mission and come back, 36 hours passes. Time is compressed that much, but before any further time goes by, you have to send another squad out on a mission and then another 36 hours will pass. etc... This limits training, resting and repairing. So you can't just sit on your IMP and train him up to max, then go hire some AIM Mercs and then start the missions, etc...
It's one of the things that made Deadly games as difficult as it was, you get your best merc's hurt, they can't rest up unless you send your crappy ones out on a mission, and even then, they may not be rested up fully by the time you get back.
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| Re: quasi-missionbased campaigns. Concepts and general discussion[message #126975]
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Sun, 25 June 2006 06:02
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| the scorpion |
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Messages:1834
Registered:September 2004
Location: CH |
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i guess i`d have to see how it works ingame to make a judgment myself. until that (which might take some time) i`ll trust your enthusiasm about it. I guess never playing DG disqualifies me in that discussion ;-(
however i feel that there are enough people interested in that so who knows maybe this project might make it past the point your last attempt apparently ended. Consider myself happy to help with it if that point comes.
very bottomn-lineish i`d say i`d be very happy to have the choice between normal ja2 + mods and this missionbased ja2 game engine and i hope others agree on this so this can be getting started somewhere
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Sergeant Major
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| Re: quasi-missionbased campaigns. Concepts and general discussion[message #126977]
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Tue, 27 June 2006 09:56
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| Kaiden |
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Messages:502
Registered:September 2003 |
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Well, it's almost "Kaiden gives up his life to try and fix the 1.13 map editor" time again. So once that is finished, I figure another 2-3 quicker 1.13 release after this one, everything we need to get started would be externalized, and I can get started making the beginning code changes to make this work.
It may be much easier to work backwards though, hard-code the changes we need, to get it working with minimal difficulty, and then externalize what needs to be externalized for other modders to make their own campaigns. But I'll see how it goes once I get the mandatory hard-coded changes done.
I've also been contemplating making this another game-play option off the 1.13 main options menu... It depends on how much has to be changed, and how much code would have to be "commented" out based on that option. Luckily, I have the UB code to go by for Strategic AI code that has to be commented out.
Any thoughts?
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| Re: quasi-missionbased campaigns. Concepts and general discussion[message #126978]
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Thu, 29 June 2006 09:35
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| the scorpion |
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Messages:1834
Registered:September 2004
Location: CH |
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you`d have my support if 1.13 was at the point it needs to be. It isn`t yet at the point i want it so for me it`s too early to stray from it
however, if they actually succeed in those 2-3 fast small releases and if these releases finally contain the things we need (and have kept requesting for years now) for our task, it might look all different than it does now.
theres a couple of mods in the making and almost all of them seem to decide to switch away from 1.13 as their engine so i can`t promise i`ll work on a project that will base on a largely unfinished other project. plus we`re both stuck in our respective projects so i guess once i can work full speed on ja2 rr (depends on those proclaimed releases of 1.13 to follow soon) i can make estimations about the timeframe in which i can`t put any serious effort in a different mod than ja2 rr.
btw kaiden i guess you`re wasting your time, apart from myself nobody seems to answer you in the way you might have been looking for. people got used to me doing all the posting in this subforum. maybe we should discuss that in "1.13 general discussion thread" where the reactions would be there. That migth also add 2-3 guys to the discussion plus people might notice your idea better than here in this hidden and godforsaken part of the forum
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Sergeant Major
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| Re: quasi-missionbased campaigns. Concepts and general discussion[message #179326]
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Fri, 28 March 2008 18:28
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| the scorpion |
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Messages:1834
Registered:September 2004
Location: CH |
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i think i found a way to return the player to the same "safe house" after each mission goal is accomplished.
only downside is that it requires NPC interaction after each mission, which is boring
i'd have to see whether or not this could be triggered by cut scene, then we'd not always require end-mission npc's.
also, currently, it's just a one-way ticket.
but it would allow to make faster missions, especially just the fighting and looting, then teleporting out instead of militia training.
just a concept in case anybody still wants to go mission-based.
lets assume a small squad, some safe zones with some necessary things like traders and shops, maybe skyrider's chopper can be used to get the player to the hot zone too.
some quest givers in the safe house that provide the missions. Key missions on sam sites or towns drive progression and story forward --> better equipment at traders inventories.
Miners are changed to financiers and give their steady income from save sectors beyond the combat zone (maybe some exceptions for the fun of defending a mine againts an enemy horde) depending on quests solved.
could be tied to story-driving loadscreens for the sectors we go to as missions. Couple of NPC's that can give missions from within the hot zone, maybe fractions of different kinds, little civil war.
new recruitables after or even better during difficult missions --> better RPC balancing.
theme can be a country like arulco, theme can be the entire world where one mission might represent one town/ just a couple of buildingss in one city of one country of the world (separated to the other missions so scale is no problem)
strategic map is a world map with some highlighted hotspots (the missions)
main problem probably how to get to the next mission. Might have to be unlocked using sam sites.xml in 1.13 and the chopper. hope sam sites.xml works neatly now... although there's tht cut scene issues that might fcuk up this one idea.
hmmm. But going in per heli (can be remodeled to be a private plane or whatever) and going out per teleport to the isolated safe house could work to a certain extend.
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Sergeant Major
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| Re: quasi-missionbased campaigns. Concepts and general discussion[message #179563]
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Sun, 30 March 2008 23:02
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| the scorpion |
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Messages:1834
Registered:September 2004
Location: CH |
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i think i also found a way to have potentially unlimited funds for an NPC (money is harder to handle than normal items, so i needed a special function and found it)
so what we could have is new money generated by the same quest giver/ employer NPC after each mission is won.
not yet tested every aspects of moddability of this function. I suspect it has two limitations that need to be worked around but should not be that big of a problem in a mission based campaign.
although i can't yet confirm both restrictions, if we're lucky, there is only one restriction.
next difficulty would be the missions themselves. They'd require a story each and a way for the player to accomplish a goal. Simple assasination would only work for few character slots, but occasionally taking out a random drug lord would be possible.
obtaining items would be the easiest thing.
escorting people should be possible
simply clear certain sectors (towns) as well.
but this is all very shallow. I'd require a very good story somehow... plus time elapsing would be an issue. Those short missions could be done in so little time that the contract of our merc would not even come close to running out. Even for daily payment it would be too easy cash-balancing wise.
Might have to use time triggers (there are only so few...) but then, what do our mercs do in the time between finishing a mission and the effect of their work materialise in the quest world? Maybe squeeze in a follow-up quest. Maybe one off the usual storyline, maybe a time delayed sector defense (drassen counter comes to mind, certain sam-sites) or somesuch.
guess i'd require a scriptwriter for such a mod ;-D
are they still on strike?
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Sergeant Major
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) 
The standard campaign is a very nice one. Gradual buildup with limited money, choice of mercs is crucial. You do need the full CD image to run the final patch. Pick turn limits 'on' and any level of AI, it plays very well at the highest level. Turn limits make some scenarios highly interesting if you want to pick up all extra items, keeps the mercs moving all the time. Some scenarios are deliberately puzzle-ish where you have to follow a certain strategic route to make it. Plus you get to know some of the older mercs from the AIM family 
