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Raw idea: AP cost for direction change while aiming[message #323953]

Tue, 13 August 2013 23:26

Flugente

Messages:3507
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany

Hi,

one of the balance problems that 1.13 currently has is that SMGs are relatively useless, unless pimped to absurd levels. I'd still prefer an AR over an SMG in CQB - the draw cost an firing AP cost may be higher, but once you fire, the damage is more than worth it. On longer ranges SMGs lose anyway. As I do daytime combat whenever I can, at best in wilderness sectors, I never pick SMGs unless nothing else is available. Same for shotguns.

It seems from real-life experience (which I don't have :whistle:) that SMGs would be ideal for short distances. SWAT-stuff if you will. Now, how could we add incentives for the player to use them, without adding illogical boni to them just to make them better at that role?

Illogical boni in this regard would be

+x% SMG damage indoors/when near the target/for autotrait
+x% accuracy indoors/when near the target/for autotrait
absurd special SMG ammo (we already have AET, and SMGs are still rather bad).

So, how could we make SMGS more useful at short ranges? My idea is to add new AP costs in on specific instance:

Add extra AP cost to a merc changing his direction (via 'L') if he is aiming his gun.

That's the basic idea. If we aim a gun and then change the direction we look into, we still aim the gun once we finished that. This means that the merc turned while still keeping the gun aimed. What I'm proposing is to make that cost extra APs. This cost should depend on a gun's dimensions. As we don't have values for that (no, itemsize won't work), we could simply use a gun's weight. Turning while you aim a .38 is easy. Turning while aiming an M60 takes a bit longer.

As a rule of thumb, the closer you are to your target, the more likely you have to readjust your merc's direction. As result, CQB with ARs becomes more expensive in comparison to SMGs, while retaining their usefulness in long-range combat, where one does not turn direction so much.

Codewise this would be relatively easy to do, including AI handling of this. Obviously handling AP costs would need some adjustments to, but that's handleable. This would obviously work for both OCTH and NCTH btw.

An expansion of this would be to have the scopes/sights you are aiming with influence this. A reflex sight would probably make it even easier than iron sights to retain aiming, resulting in lower AP cost. High-powered scopes would cause greater cost, as one would move slower (or be disoriented if too fast). This, however, comes in conflict with the scope modes feature - as changing scopes does not cost AP, one could switch to reflex, turn, and then switch back to scope. I have an idea how to handle that, but it's not the prettiest I've had, I'll go into it if this is wished.

So, my questions are:

Is this concept understandable, or complicated stuff that further complicates existing complicated stuff?
Is it valid from a semi-realistic pov?
Are there better ideas? Preferrably easier too :wave:

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Captain

Re: Raw idea: AP cost for direction change while aiming[message #323956]

Wed, 14 August 2013 00:29

DepressivesBrot

Messages:3653
Registered:July 2009

Weight might get weird results. Use ready AP, they are a function of dimensions, mass and its distribution.

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Captain

Re: Raw idea: AP cost for direction change while aiming[message #323959]

Wed, 14 August 2013 01:16

silversurfer

Messages:2791
Registered:May 2009

SMGs have the advantage of lower shooting AP. This already covers the time that is needed to get them ready to fire. In my opinion this includes time to adjust direction. I wouldn't want it more complicated than that.

I don't think that SMGs are useless. SMGs are perfect for night time combat because you don't need the range of ARs but you need the speed of small arms and that is what SMGs can provide. They can be silenced much better than ARs so you can kill opponents without being noticed.
I always have a small and light weight SMG as backup weapon for my snipers because SMGs have proven to be very effective in close quarter combat. When I have a team of two mercs next to an enemy and one merc has an AR and the other an SMG I almost always use the SMG to kill the opponent because then I will still have enough APs left on both mercs to react to an interrupt and kill even more with both.

I'm playing with stock 1.13 item data so if mods made ARs overpowered and equal to SMGs in terms of AP usage then the mods should be adjusted in my opinion.

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Lieutenant

Re: Raw idea: AP cost for direction change while aiming[message #323960]

Wed, 14 August 2013 02:26

Thor

Messages:423
Registered:February 2007
Location: Belgium

I agree with silversurfer on this one, don't think they are useless either, although I prefer machine pistols like a glock 18 or a micro uzi (but yes... speaking of AR rifles, a colt commando is pretty awesome in close to medium range):

SMGs
- weigh a lot less then ARs (interesting for weak mercs)
- their APs to raise are (often a lot) less if you choose well
- more silenced
- less expensive bullets (although less powerful), often very common as well

Of course, it's good to pick your weapons carefully, but I think a gun like the FN P90 is an awesome SMG like in real life. Its looks may not be regular and its ammo is not very common and expensive, but that's the only downside to me.

If there will be messing with APs, then I propose to lower the "weapon raise costs" in some cases, I'd promote that.
E.g. why would a Colt 9mm SMG be wielded faster than a Colt commando?

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Master Sergeant

Re: Raw idea: AP cost for direction change while aiming[message #323962]

Wed, 14 August 2013 04:33

Wil473

Messages:2815
Registered:September 2004
Location: Canada

DepressivesBrot

Weight might get weird results. Use ready AP, they are a function of dimensions, mass and its distribution.

I'd suggest using a fraction of ready. ChrisL's alternate OCTH uses a fraction of a gun's ready to modify the 1st aiming click's cost. From JA2_Options.INI:

; Divisor of the gun's "READY" cost that is added to the the first aiming level.
; 0 = No extra cost.
FIRST_AIM_READY_COST_DIVISOR = 5

Not sure if anyone but myself is using these increased aiming costs for OCTH, but having a different cost to re-target makes sense to me. Right now isn't it the same for all weapons no matter what the size?

Additionally, may we have modifiers so that attachments such as bipods have an even higher cost to re-target. I think this was mentioned briefly in the discussion on bullpup portrayal in my projects.

[Updated on: Wed, 14 August 2013 04:37] by Moderator

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Lieutenant

Re: Raw idea: AP cost for direction change while aiming[message #323966]

Wed, 14 August 2013 09:42

Deleted.

Messages:2657
Registered:December 2012
Location: Russian Federation

Maybe add AP bonuses/penalties when shooting at the same/another target in the same FOV?

Edited:
So, for example, we can fire
with AR:
3 shots at the same target or 2 shots at 2 different targets.
or with SMG:
3 shots at the same targets or 3 shots at 3 different targets.

All with same AP-costs for ready and shoot.
All in the same FOV, without turning.

[Updated on: Wed, 14 August 2013 12:48] by Moderator

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Lieutenant

Re: Raw idea: AP cost for direction change while aiming[message #323968]

Wed, 14 August 2013 11:05

DepressivesBrot

Messages:3653
Registered:July 2009

@Thor:
The P90 is borderline OP and has one of the biggest media hypes out of all guns.
@wil:
To clarify, I was proposing AP2R as the better basis for calculation, not to apply it 1:1
@seven:
Exists, but iir it's 1AP atm.

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Captain

Re: Raw idea: AP cost for direction change while aiming[message #323990]

Wed, 14 August 2013 20:23

pheloncab

Messages:278
Registered:August 2004
Location: So. Cal. or texas

I think this is a huge Reality vs balance issue and in the end as long as its fair any changes will in the big picture be a good thing.

I agree that weight is not the proper figure to start from, the AP ready or a guns handling ability would be proper, since those theoretically take into account all those things like foregrips, normal/bullpup, reflex sights, lasers, weight, gun ergonomics.

from a balance perspective, the hard part will be figuring out the ratio of points to apply. i'd probably start around 10% and work upwards stopping by 20%.

I do see this as having play effects on far more than SMGs.. Snipers might be doing the sidearm switch a lot more if they have to do in-building work, suddenly those nice pistols aren't quite so useless mid-game.

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Master Sergeant

Re: Raw idea: AP cost for direction change while aiming[message #331781]

Thu, 17 April 2014 10:33

Kaerar

Messages:2021
Registered:January 2003
Location: Australia :D

The only weapons that would not work with weight as the baseline would be bullpup's. With normal layout weapons the weight is located primarily forward of the primary grip point. With a Bullpup most of the weight is moved towards the grip itself or even rearward. this would need a modifier to adjust due to its improved handling which would give a nice differentiation to guns like the AUG and FAMAS vs the M16 and G36's for instance.

Using Ready AP is a possibility, but maybe it should be a formula determined using a combination of Ready AP and Weight?

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Lieutenant

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