Pistols are good for close range, especially with gunslinger and ambidextrous traits.
For example, if you can shoot with rifle with CTH = 40% and with a pistol with CTH = 20%, and if pistol is twice as fast as rifle and you have two of them and ambidextrous trait that Fox has, you will be roughly twice more effective at pistol range than if you used rifle.
Maybe I need to increase penalties when shooting beyond weapon range, but in general pistols allow much more shots, and you can move with them more like run closer to enemy, shoot, run back to cover.
You can also check merc statistics in the laptop and see who has better chance of hitting.
Messages:2412
Registered:October 2005 Location: Australia
Personally I'd vouch for keeping the pistol modifiers as is. I still found at early stages of the game I could barely hit anything with a pistol, even at close ranges, even two or three tiles away, but have yet to try with a gunslinger. Enemies on the other hand seemed better at shooting, but perhaps Vengeance has slightly different values? Admittedly pistols have produced better results as the game has progressed and my mercs have had better training and improved their skills.
The game can assign gunslinger trait if soldier has pistol, so they can be more accurate because of added bonus, you can check enemy traits with debug tooltip level.
Well, realistic solution to that would be to make shooting 2 weapons available only in "from hip" mode, because even if you are truly ambidextrous and therefore equally good with both hands, that doesn't mean that you have eyes on stalks like a snail and can therefore aim down 2 different sights although I don't think that pistols are all that good and therefore need any balancing
I think one reason pistols feel too strong to me is because they are also more effective at suppression than shotguns or SMGs. Because of the AP cost you can fire 4-5 shots where the heavier weapons can only fire one, or with SMGS, one wildly inaccurate burst. I get that shotguns, especially the pump-action ones should be much slower firing than pistols but I would expect the buckshot (and maybe slugs) to do more suppression damage than a 9mm bullet. At the moment it appears that they don't.
Having said this. I've yet to really come up against an enemy wielding anything other than pistols (playing on slow progression), so this is mostly speculative and could be more of to do with the marksmanship of enemies having been improved generally.
in Item_Settings.ini, it will make shotguns more useful as powerful weapon for close range.
In SDO mod, shotguns are much more effective in the early game as they have much higher damage, so it's not unusual to kill enemy with one shot in early battles.
I don't think that pistols are better than SMGs, in my tests of your save game I was able to shoot 2 aimed bursts/turn with a good CTH of about 50% at medium range, if enemy was standing and not moving, so they were quite effective.
Hi Sevenfm. Have you thought about implementing different accuracy faloff curves for different weapon classes ie. pistols have different curve than rifles. Because right now the settings that are good for pistols wont suit rifles and vice versa. Also would it be realistically possible to code a caliber/ammo based damage system ie. weapons dont have inherent damage value attributed to them, but it is determined by ammo type, ie 7.62x51 will have higher damage than 5.56x45. This would resolve problem with subsonic[cold] ammo having same damage as normal loaded ammo, or 12 gauge slugs having incredible damage, while you balance the buckshot.
Hi Sevenfm. Have you thought about implementing different accuracy faloff curves for different weapon classes ie. pistols have different curve than rifles. Because right now the settings that are good for pistols wont suit rifles and vice versa.
Are you talking about OCTH or NCTH?
In both systems chance to hit quickly drops when shooting beyond weapon range which is the biggest difference between weapons. Pistols have a short range so you can hit with them at distance no more than 15-20 tiles.
Quote:
Also would it be realistically possible to code a caliber/ammo based damage system ie. weapons dont have inherent damage value attributed to them, but it is determined by ammo type, ie 7.62x51 will have higher damage than 5.56x45. This would resolve problem with subsonic[cold] ammo having same damage as normal loaded ammo, or 12 gauge slugs having incredible damage, while you balance the buckshot.
I don't plan any changes that will break compatibility with stock 1.13 7609 and mods. We already have main trunk for that kind of changes.
If you want to change damage for a certain type of ammo, why not just use tags like <armourImpactReductionMultiplier>, <armourImpactReductionDivisor>, <afterArmourDamageMultiplier>, <afterArmourDamageDivisor>, <beforeArmourDamageMultiplier> and <beforeArmourDamageDivisor>?
Are you talking about OCTH or NCTH?
In both systems chance to hit quickly drops when shooting beyond weapon range which is the biggest difference between weapons. Pistols have a short range so you can hit with them at distance no more than 15-20 tiles.
NCTH. Fallof for pistols should be larger than for rifles. Currently no way to do that.
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I don't plan any changes that will break compatibility with stock 1.13 7609 and mods. We already have main trunk for that kind of changes.
If you want to change damage for a certain type of ammo, why not just use tags like <armourImpactReductionMultiplier>, <armourImpactReductionDivisor>, <afterArmourDamageMultiplier>, <afterArmourDamageDivisor>, <beforeArmourDamageMultiplier> and <beforeArmourDamageDivisor>?
Ive already tinkered with that before making post, but the results are only somewhat satisfactory.
@CareBear
I think it's the design of NCTH system - aperture increases linearly over distance (which means quadratic CTH drop when using uniform shot distribution), with gun's accuracy adding small penalty which is also probably linear, I didn't look deep into the code.
I plan to review some parts of NCTH code some day, specifically max aperture dependency from visual sight/gun range (which shouldn't be linear) and scope effect (which shouldn't just divide aperture size by a magnification value).
Thanks a lot sevenfm! I have also noticed a couple of times (while playing r876) that the walking UI showed available movement (i.e. the footstep signs were yellow for running for one additional step) whereas my merc actually did not have enough APs to run anymore. This was out in the open, without any obstacles and such.
Hi sevenfm, here is a screenshot regarding the bug that pathfinding UI does show more "footsteps" than it is actually available: https://imgur.com/a/Qo8Na3O
- HandleSuppressionFire: fixed critical bug
- marbles work only for walking/running soldiers (swatting soldier will not fall)
- fixed flashbang effect in buildings, blindness effect (previously flashbang code could only recognize buildings with flat roof)
- fixed finding wrong flagged soldier (seems to be the bug that caused enemy instantly finding mercs when there is enemy tank in sector and causing realtime slowdowns)
- fixes: r7819, r7931, r8643
- better random number generator (it seems that stock 1.13 random is not providing uniform distribution, allowing strange sequences of extremely lucky/unlucky shots)
- fix jumping with backpack cost
- don't allow fence jumping from prone stance using [j] key
- breaking AI deadlock: show AI action name, allow breaking AI less often when fast forwarding enabled
- always allow dropping item at the same tile (allow going into negative APs to prevent situation when merc is stuck with item in cursor and without APs to drop it)
AI:
- allow grenade/mortar attacks more often if sector curfew = 2
- sector leader determines extra flanking or restricts flanking when attacking sector (for the first 10 turns after raising alert only)
- stationary/snipers don't advance if have no cover, try to avoid roof edge
- Black AI: better crouching/turning code when nothing to do
- allow shooting through walls when returning fire or if enemy is in a room and high percent of teammates killed
- AI speed optimization
- minor fixes for AI soldiers changing stance/turning to prevent AI deadlocks
OCTH:
- AllowedAimingLevels: reduce max aim levels by 1 when firing with two pistols
- CalcChanceToHitGun: additional penalty 2%/tile when shooting beyond weapon range, bonus up to 10% if weapon range is greater than distance to target
- always allow 1% when shooting at visible target, for invisible targets only when aiming at torso
NCTH:
- disable increasing deviation when shooting beyond effective range (now deviation formula is the same as in stock 1.13)
- use original stock 1.13 shot distribution code (uniform distribution inside aperture)
Hi sevenfm,
I have some more feedback for you after playing your modpack (wf607 mod) a bit longer.
Regarding grenades;
I noticed that stun grenades are ineffective after trying to use them multiple times. They enemy is knocked down after the detonation but are immediately able to stand up in their turn and act as though they have a full AP (move/5-6 shots with a pistol). I realise this may be default behavior for this version 1.13, but i thought i should let you know in case you want to try to fix it.
The same applies to mini-grenades, they seem to do almost no breath dmg to enemies.
The m79 launcher; Though the one i picked up wasn't at 100% quality, I was appalled by how inaccurate short range it was. Used by both Grunty (heavy weapons) and Wolf, both of them were far more reliable and could hit longer ranges with a thrown grenade than with a 40mm from the m79. Have a try and see if the same goes for you.
Returning to the interruption system - I understand you usually test with the new interrupt system disabled - and that you have modified the chance-to-interrupt bonus for pistols to be slightly higher within the weapons range. Is that correct?
What I cant get used to is enemies with pistols often being uninterruptible/being able to beat my mercs 'to the draw' even when they come into view with an un-aimed pistol against my merc with an aimed gun (shotgun/smg/other cqc weapon). One hack for this is for my merc to pull out his side-arm and aim it but this feels kind of silly since it's usually more effective (unless down to -20ap) to simply put the pistol away and fire with my main weapon once I win the interrupt.
A possible solution would be to allow the AI to sidestep into view in an aimed stance like the merc is able to do (I don't know if that is possible within the limits of the game-engine, but if so, it certainly must be possible for your coding skills, judging by what else you have been able to achieve already).
Would it also be more realistic and also gameplay-friendly to make the pistol interrupt bonus only apply to um-aimed weapons? I can't see why an aimed pistol would be faster to fire than an aimed p90/mp5 which are specifically designed for close-quarters/room-to-room combat.
Hi sevenfm,
I have some more feedback for you after playing your modpack (wf607 mod) a bit longer.
Hi buuface, thank you for feedback!
Quote:
Regarding grenades;
I noticed that stun grenades are ineffective after trying to use them multiple times. They enemy is knocked down after the detonation but are immediately able to stand up in their turn and act as though they have a full AP (move/5-6 shots with a pistol). I realise this may be default behavior for this version 1.13, but i thought i should let you know in case you want to try to fix it.
I cannot reproduce it, in my tests with SDO+Wildfire, 2 stun grenades (item 131) are usually enough for the enemy to not stand up on the next turn.
Quote:
The same applies to mini-grenades, they seem to do almost no breath dmg to enemies.
Mini grenades have low damage and breath damage, they should not work as stun grenades.
Quote:
The m79 launcher; Though the one i picked up wasn't at 100% quality, I was appalled by how inaccurate short range it was. Used by both Grunty (heavy weapons) and Wolf, both of them were far more reliable and could hit longer ranges with a thrown grenade than with a 40mm from the m79. Have a try and see if the same goes for you.
Cannot reproduce. In my tests with SDO+Wildfire, I had the following results: Igor (no traits):
mini grenade: 17 tiles, 35% cth
mk2 grenade: 14 tiles, 42% cth
M79: 16 tiles, 42% cth or at max range 35 tiles, 28% cth Grunty (heavy weapons):
mini grenade: 16 tiles, 39% cth
mk2 grenade: 13 tiles, 47% cth
M79: 16 tiles, 58% cth or at max range 35 tiles, 44% cth Barry (demolitions):
mini grenade: 19 tiles, 62% cth
mk2 grenade: 15 tiles, 72% cth
M79: 16 tiles, 45% cth or at max range 35 tiles, 31% cth
As you can see, M79 has better cth at grenade range, unless your merc has demolitions skill, and m79 has much higher range than any grenade.
Also, merc trait is not the only thing that matters, you also need regular skills for good cth:
basic CTH for throwing (grenades, throwing knives): (dexterity + marksmanship) / 2
basic CTH for launched (mortars, grenade launchers): (dexterity + marksmanship + wisdom + 10 * level) / 4
Effective skills are used (so for example, suppression shock can lower effective marksmanship and dexterity).
Later, other modifiers are applied like morale/fatigue etc.
I can look at particular situation if you provide a save, but currently I don't see any problem in thrown weapons balance.
I will slightly lower range penalty for calculating CTH with grenade launchers, but that's all I can do at the moment.
Quote:
Returning to the interruption system - I understand you usually test with the new interrupt system disabled - and that you have modified the chance-to-interrupt bonus for pistols to be slightly higher within the weapons range. Is that correct?
Raised weapon in raised direction adds +1 interrupt level, if target is within weapon range.
If soldier has pistol in hand, and target is within pistol range, add +1 interrupt level.
So max possible difference between your merc and enemy soldier with pistol will be 1 level if you aim in his direction.
If your merc has interrupt level 5 and enemy has interrupt level 6, that means that 54% of the time he will win interrupt, and 46% of the time you will win. I don't see any problem here.
Quote:
What I cant get used to is enemies with pistols often being uninterruptible/being able to beat my mercs 'to the draw' even when they come into view with an un-aimed pistol against my merc with an aimed gun (shotgun/smg/other cqc weapon). One hack for this is for my merc to pull out his side-arm and aim it but this feels kind of silly since it's usually more effective (unless down to -20ap) to simply put the pistol away and fire with my main weapon once I win the interrupt.
There are no uninterruptible enemies in the game, you always have a chance for interrupt, unless:
- enemy can see you but you cannot see enemy
- your merc was under attack this turn (he was suppressed and changed stance, just a stray bullet that caused no reaction doesn't count)
- your merc was hit this turn (with bullet, fragment, grenade etc)
Quote:
A possible solution would be to allow the AI to sidestep into view in an aimed stance like the merc is able to do (I don't know if that is possible within the limits of the game-engine, but if so, it certainly must be possible for your coding skills, judging by what else you have been able to achieve already).
AI cannot use alternative movement mode (moving backwards, sidestepping, rolling), and I'm not sure if it's possible technically to teach them.
Quote:
Would it also be more realistic and also gameplay-friendly to make the pistol interrupt bonus only apply to um-aimed weapons? I can't see why an aimed pistol would be faster to fire than an aimed p90/mp5 which are specifically designed for close-quarters/room-to-room combat.
Yes, I will change that so the game will first check for raised weapon and check for pistol bonus only if weapon is not raised.
I noticed to the Vengence:Reloaded link in your sig; does this mean the current version of V:R has your AI modifications integrated already?
Do you have any plans to update your mod in line with some of the newer development versions of 1.13 in order to take advantage of some of the new features. It seems like a lot has been added to the trunk since 7609 from flugente's workshop and other places.
In fact it would make a lot more sense for them to incorporate your AI mod into the 'official' version of 1.13. Has this been talked about?
I noticed to the Vengence:Reloaded link in your sig; does this mean the current version of V:R has your AI modifications integrated already?
No but I applied a few fixes to the Vengeance code. The AI in VR is the same as in stock 1.13, as it is based on stable 7609 code with some improvements.
Quote:
Do you have any plans to update your mod in line with some of the newer development versions of 1.13 in order to take advantage of some of the new features. It seems like a lot has been added to the trunk since 7609 from flugente's workshop and other places.
No, the idea is using stable code base to improve AI and implement some experimental features that I find interesting.
Quote:
In fact it would make a lot more sense for them to incorporate your AI mod into the 'official' version of 1.13. Has this been talked about?
Not possible for many reasons, the code is too different. It would be easier to make new AI from scratch than to merge Ja2+AI into the trunk.
I noticed to the Vengence:Reloaded link in your sig; does this mean the current version of V:R has your AI modifications integrated already?
No but I applied a few fixes to the Vengeance code. The AI in VR is the same as in stock 1.13, as it is based on stable 7609 code with some improvements.
Quote:
Do you have any plans to update your mod in line with some of the newer development versions of 1.13 in order to take advantage of some of the new features. It seems like a lot has been added to the trunk since 7609 from flugente's workshop and other places.
No, the idea is using stable code base to improve AI and implement some experimental features that I find interesting.
Quote:
In fact it would make a lot more sense for them to incorporate your AI mod into the 'official' version of 1.13. Has this been talked about?
Not possible for many reasons, the code is too different. It would be easier to make new AI from scratch than to merge Ja2+AI into the trunk.
Ah that's a real shame. What you have achieved with your AI re-work is pretty monumental in the scope of 1.13's overall development. It's pity that from the sounds of it, it will remain trapped in this earlier stable build whilst the rest of the mod will eventually move on.
Messages:68
Registered:October 2010 Location: Finland
That I did not know, thanks.
It does work, excellent. Seems it is necessary to keep SHIFT down, and release it only after game has loaded.
Now playing with wine ja2_7609en+AI_r937.exe.
- combining magazines no longer works. Tried a few kinds, adding from a similar magazine to a not full magazine does not work. I would say this worked in r883. I can add bullets to magazine in rifle, and combine half full magazines that way.
- combining magazines no longer works. Tried a few kinds, adding from a similar magazine to a not full magazine does not work. I would say this worked in r883. I can add bullets to magazine in rifle, and combine half full magazines that way.
Should be fixed in r943. Also you can always use Ctrl+click to merge items.
Fixes:
- fix: the game sometimes didn't charge APs for changing stance after cowering
- r8427: The total weight of the equipment carried by a merc is now displayed in a tooltip. (by Flugente)
- autoresolve fixes from r8554 (by Flugente)
- r8524 Fix: on low resolutions, the message log blocks parts of the inventory,so deactivate the log in that case (by Flugente)
- updated r8524 fix to work in 1024x600
- GetClosestFlaggedSoldierID: find closest soldier
- initialize last suppression values (fixes incorrect suppression values shown above the soldier when he is suppressed for the first time in the battle)
- fix cowering animation
- create soldier: possibly initialize broken militia/army class (the game works incorrectly if soldier is in enemy team but has no correct enemy class assigned in editor)
- campaign stats: if soldier has no defined class, use CAMPAIGNHISTORY_SD_ENEMY_ARMY or CAMPAIGNHISTORY_SD_MILITIA_GREEN group, changed default group to CAMPAIGNHISTORY_SD_CIV
Misc:
- Build 18.12.18
- better rounding for diagonal movement (for better balance between straight and diagonal movement costs)
- lower range penalty for grenade launchers
- tanks, vehicles, robots cannot be gassed
- smoke and signal smoke don't have gas effect on soldiers
- play grenade pin sound
- added support for custom grenade pin sound (<sSound> tag in Weapons.xml)
- added weapon raising sounds support
- NCTH: increase deviation when shooting beyond effective range, limit additional deviation multiplier to 2.0
- start bullet drop at weapon range/2 for fragments, at weapon range in OCTH, use gravity constant 4 for OCTH, 2 for fragments
- set usClockTicksPerUpdate = 30 for fragments, always use speed specified in weapons.xml
Save version and compatibility:
- revert gameversion to SNITCH_TRAIT_EXTENDED
- set max number of keys to 64 to restore save compatibility with older Ja2+AI releases or stock 1.13 7609
- hold SHIFT to load earlier saves with 255 keys
Interrupts:
- bonus to interrupt level for pistol only if weapon is not raised (first check bonos for any weapon raised in enemy direction, second check for pistol in hand which can be not raised, then check for melee weapon in hand which also can give small bonus at close range)
- tank can interrupt even if it was hit this turn
- interrupt level penalty for soldier if he was hit this turn
- bonus from raised weapon/pistol in hand/knife in hand applies only for merc bodytypes
- interrupts: apply cowering/hit/suppressed restrictions only to merc bodytypes
AI:
- AI: use throw attacks more often when attacking town sector
- lower chance to use smoke depending on range, bonus if enemy recently have seen many opponents, penalty if friends see this enemy, don't use smoke against enemies with short range weapons
- lower value for flare attack if friends see this enemy
- AI code speed optimization
- Green, Yellow AI: raise alert if found drugged soldier (raise alert if player used combat drugs against enemy soldiers)
- check that fast forward was used when breaking AI (should fix breaking AI because of fast forward timer used)
- for soldiers without profile, avoid locations near doors if alert was not raised yet (so random AI movement will not block doors too often)
- CalcCoverValue: retreat/take cover when under fire, allow better taking cover after shot
Covert:
- SeemsLegit: uncover if seen near collapsed soldier
- applying items to enemies: penalize attacker value if someone is watching, penalize defender value if he cannot see attacker, penalize defender value if he never seen attacker, increase suspicion of attacker if still covert (in general, it's much harder now to apply items to opponent if someone is watching or if alert is raised)
Suppression:
- allow AP loss for prone soldier (previously there was no AP loss for prone soldiers, they could only lose all APs when cowering)
- move adrenaline effect on suppression to suppression tolerance (adrenaline increases suppression tolerance)
- correctly show APs lost from suppression
- show suppression face icon at 25%
- moved alcohol bonus/penalty to FearResistancePercent (alcohol helps to lower suppression shock)
Game Options:
- removed SHOW_SUPPRESSION_COUNT_ALT option
- SHOW_SUPPRESSION_COUNT, SHOW_SHOCK_COUNT, SHOW_AP_COUNT, SHOW_MORALE_COUNT - disable value = 2 (always show suppression in regular way, after damage counter)
- removed options: SHOW_SUPPRESSION_USE_ASTERISK, SHOW_SUPPRESSION_SCALE_ASTERISK
- options ENEMY_HIT_COUNT = 1, PLAYER_HIT_COUNT = 1 show red '*' instead of white '?'
- removed XML_LOCKS option (the game simply checks for xml files and use them if they exist, no need for option as all locks binary files in mods are identical to vanilla ja2)
Merges:
- added new tags to Merges.xml: PointsUsed, PointsAdded, ExtraItem, ExtraItemPointsUsed, SkillCheck, SkillDifficulty
@Taleman
Cannot do anything without a reproducible save. Sorry but I see no point in posting here some random bugs that cannot be reproduced on windows from the save.
That information you posted also doesn't tell me anything useful.
Messages:68
Registered:October 2010 Location: Finland
These errors never occur again when loading end of turn save and trying to play exact same way again. Without source code I can not run under debugger.
Are you a professional c/c++ coder? I can send you a link to the game source but you would need a decent knowledge of c/c++, without it the source code or Ja2_debug.exe will be useless.
1. I applied royal jelly to a spectra helmet and it turned into a rag.
2. When 2 of my mercs contracts expired I asked them drop their stuff in B13 (Drassen airport) before leaving. But when i entered the sector none of their equipment was dropped there (i'm not sure where in the sector it is supposed to be).
Will try to attach a save later today. (Right now im at work)
Dear seven. I notice that a new item type in your moddpack(playing wf607) are tripwire grenades, which can be de-attached from the tripwire to transform them into regular grenades.
But when i tried to do the reverse (add tripwire to a grenade in order to make a kind of mine for sector defense) it doesn't allow the attachment. Am i doing something wrong?
edit: Nvm. I realised this is an old feature and i just had to click the transform button on the tripwire item to make it attachable
Is there somewhere I can find a summary of changes you have made to the covert-ops/spy system in your mod?
Also, i'm playing wf607 with your modpack and havn't found any radios either in the world or in the loadout of any of the radio-operator mercs so far. I've taken 4 cities, have I just been unlucky not to have found one yet?
A question about loyalty. I noticed that whenever I defend one of the cities against the queen's forces, even if I am victorious, the loyalty of that city takes a dive of at least a few percent, and raising it again seems to take forever or simply doesn't happen at all (Cambria has been stuck at 15% for about 8 days and I can't find a way to raise it enough to train militia or staff the facilities). Grumm is now quickly heading the same way due to the frequency of attacks. I need some advice on how to raise/maintain loyalty in the cities.