Home » MODDING HQ 1.13 » v1.13 General Development Talk » 100AP Project - open Beta
100AP Project - open Beta[message #198440] Wed, 08 October 2008 02:11 Go to next message
ctiberious

 
Messages:605
Registered:March 2007
We herewith announce the beta-phase of the 100AP-system Smile

A little history: A few years back, Kaiden proposed a switch to a 100AP-system, to be able to fine-tune AP-costs in JA2 1.13, and he began working on it. But time was in short supply, and he did not get much help back then...
Then early this year Ar1z made a fast attempt, but his approach lacked some of the finer aspects we had in mind.

So we started again, and our goal got a bit bigger: we wanted to create a flexible system, that with a single entry in an ini-file could make almost any AP-system, from 25AP to 999AP. The default is still 100AP, though.

A word of warning to those who want to download our stuff and take part in the beta-test: Your version of 1.13 will no longer be easily changeable with the XML-Editor, and neither will it be SVN-compatible for some time.
The problem with the XML-Editor can be circumvented with some work, unless you want to change weapon-data, in which case you will have to do changes manually without the editor.
Should you update your system via SVN, then our 100AP-data will probably be overwritten*...

So what did we do?

We
- externalized all AP-costs that were not written down in XML-files already. These costs now reside in APBPConstants.ini (which should be copied to your "working" data folder (like Data-1.13))
- adjusted attachment and merge costs in a rather simple way. We will have an in-depth look at these when we come around to NGAP
- we adjusted Singleshot-AP, Burst-AP, Ready-AP, Reload-AP, ManualReload-AP, and Bonus-AP. These were fine-tuned, now that we have the ability to do so Smile
- we moved the loose round loading values from the options-ini to the APBPConstants.ini.
- we left the AP-bonus for elite enemies on Insane in the JA2-options.ini to have it together with the other stuff for the different difficulties, so be careful what you write down there (if you give them an additional 20AP, and then change back to the 25AP-system, you

Re: 100AP Project - open Beta[message #198451] Wed, 08 October 2008 03:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Marlboro Man

 
Messages:1203
Registered:October 2005
Location: USA
Smile Stuck


Re: 100AP Project - open Beta[message #198457] Wed, 08 October 2008 03:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jackinthebox
Messages:3
Registered:September 2008
I get a CTD immedialty after I see the Sirtech logo.
Re: 100AP Project - open Beta[message #198459] Wed, 08 October 2008 03:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Headrock

 
Messages:1774
Registered:March 2006
Location: Jerusalem
Quote:
I get a CTD immedialty after I see the Sirtech logo.


Make sure you install it over the latest release (2085), not the SVN version. You can get the release at http://ja2v113.pbwiki.com/


Re: 100AP Project - open Beta[message #198460] Wed, 08 October 2008 03:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jackinthebox
Messages:3
Registered:September 2008
Um... I installed it over the exe that reads '2112'. I also have wildfire with that. As well as NIV. Problem?
Re: 100AP Project - open Beta[message #198461] Wed, 08 October 2008 03:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Marlboro Man

 
Messages:1203
Registered:October 2005
Location: USA
Not sure I understand why, it works just fine with the latest SVN. You do have to start the game with the .exe that comes with this though.


Re: 100AP Project - open Beta[message #198463] Wed, 08 October 2008 03:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Headrock

 
Messages:1774
Registered:March 2006
Location: Jerusalem
Maybe chris meant that it should be installed over the current SVN release but won't be compatible with future SVN releases. In that case, JackintheBox, you would need to download the SVN version instead.

I haven't even tried it yet, I should just shut my big mouth ASAP.


Re: 100AP Project - open Beta[message #198498] Wed, 08 October 2008 13:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
cougar

 
Messages:256
Registered:March 2000
Possible bug:

Hand to hand actions take 4 action points for the first level and what I assume to be a correct number for the next aiming level. So instead of right clicking for an additional aiming level you can do seven punches for the same cost.
Re: 100AP Project - open Beta[message #198503] Wed, 08 October 2008 14:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Starwalker

 
Messages:767
Registered:October 2005
Location: Hannover, Germany
Looks like the HtH AP-cost was not externalized. How hard is it to miss that one (quite embarassing...)?


Re: 100AP Project - open Beta[message #198514] Wed, 08 October 2008 14:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Fenrir
Messages:4
Registered:August 2008
MA Expert is probably the most overpowered thing now - punches for what would be 1 AP in normal 1.13 Very Happy

But it's awesome that it's out, now many others things can be balanced much better.
Re: 100AP Project - open Beta[message #198534] Wed, 08 October 2008 16:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
cougar

 
Messages:256
Registered:March 2000
Another problem:

When you leave a merc in the running stance he will lose energy even if he is not actually running.

Example:

Turnbased mode
Ira is trying to run 15 tiles away but she only has APs for running 12 tiles. She stops there with "running while standing still" animation and she can continue next round. However turnbased mode continues because of action and Ira is left standing in this stance all this time. Now the problem, she will actually lose breath point until she pass out (which she won't do while in the stance).
Energy will be recovered quickly if she stops or go prone/crouch. Note that she won't lose any energy the first turn she stands there running. So it is like this:

Turn 1. Start running, stop running since she doesn't have enough AP.
Turn 2. Stands there, nothing happens.
Turn 3. Starts losing energy.

Interim solution: Don't let your mercs stand in the running stance if they don't have APs to continue.
Re: 100AP Project - open Beta[message #198542] Wed, 08 October 2008 17:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wil473

 
Messages:2842
Registered:September 2004
Location: Canada
Any major structural changes to the XML's noted above there, or can I simply break out MS Excel to convert UC-1.13 over to 100AP (setup something to multiply everything by 4)? Oddly enough I have time this week to work on the Hybrid.

[Updated on: Wed, 08 October 2008 17:04] by Moderator



Re: 100AP Project - open Beta[message #198543] Wed, 08 October 2008 17:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Marlboro Man

 
Messages:1203
Registered:October 2005
Location: USA
Quote:
Looks like the HtH AP-cost was not externalized. How hard is it to miss that one (quite embarassing...)?


Well I did mention that in several email conversations. Wink Most notably with the San Mona boxing. I don't use alot of HtH in normal play.


Quote:
When you leave a merc in the running stance he will lose energy even if he is not actually running.




I never had that happen. Weird. But I do remember it happening sometimes with vanilla play and early 1.13.




Re: 100AP Project - open Beta[message #198552] Wed, 08 October 2008 17:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
cdunigan

 
Messages:134
Registered:September 2007
Location: Madison, Wisconsin, USA
It's always happened to me in every version of 1.13 I've played. I like to run low health mercs around a lot, especially if it seems to me that down time while other mercs train militia or doctor/repair is better spent on that than other skill training. But I have this unaccountable squeamishness about running them into the ground, so I always stop before they drop. Even in real-time mode, if I don't specifically then set the merc's stance away from Run, s/he will generally collapse from exhaustion when I go to strategic to compress time to let them recover energy. That will often happen when I Quick-Save as well. Try it. Run around until you have only 2 or 3 points left, then drop to Strategic and compress time. It sometimes takes a few rounds like that if you don't go low enough or the merc's starting Health is above 65 or so. I thought about filing a bug on it, but it never seemed important enough.
Re: 100AP Project - open Beta[message #198560] Wed, 08 October 2008 18:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ctiberious

 
Messages:605
Registered:March 2007
Hmm. I'll look into externalizing the AP cost for HtH combat.

wil473
Any major structural changes to the XML's noted above there, or can I simply break out MS Excel to convert UC-1.13 over to 100AP (setup something to multiply everything by 4)? Oddly enough I have time this week to work on the Hybrid.
No. The xml changes are mostly just to change the AP related values from a base 25AP system to a base 100AP. We did change the Weapons.xml:ubShotsPer4Turns from an interger to a decimal, but that doesn't effect the structure of the xml file itself.

Jackinthebox
I get a CTD immedialty after I see the Sirtech logo.
Hmm. I'm not sure. The build is based off the latest code in the main branch. Rev 2369 as of yesterday. So long as you have the latest version of 1.13 (the version that includes the MultiPlayer project) then you shouldn't have an issue. If you don't have the MultiPlayer update, then you might run into problems since you'll be missing an INI file (Ja2_mp.ini) the I beleive the code requires to run. Not that 100AP needs it, but since 100AP was built onto the latest code and the latest code needs it.

As far as compatability, because 100AP is written on the latest source code (which includes MP), it is not compatible with save games created with a "pre-MP" build. The MP code was introduced with rev 2124, so if you've been playing with a build prior to that, your savegame won't be compatible. But any savegame created with an MP version of the program should be fully compatible with 100AP.

Re: 100AP Project - open Beta[message #198571] Wed, 08 October 2008 19:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ctiberious

 
Messages:605
Registered:March 2007
Ok. I've uploaded a new build with the AP_PUNCH value externalized. I've reset the 100AP base value for AP_PUNCH to "16" (which is four times the old value). The archive on the FTP site contains all the files it did before but the only two that have any changes are the exe and ini files.

http://ja2.h758491.serverkompetenz.net/ChrisL/

Re: 100AP Project - open Beta[message #198578] Wed, 08 October 2008 20:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Marlboro Man

 
Messages:1203
Registered:October 2005
Location: USA
Now that's customer service. Wink


Re: 100AP Project - open Beta[message #198618] Thu, 09 October 2008 02:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ctiberious

 
Messages:605
Registered:March 2007
Marlboro Man
Now that's customer service. Wink

Smile Well, it's something I should have dealt with before. When you first reported the problem with the boxing, I thought it was simply that it wasn't giving you the proper total APs. I didn't realize you weren't being charged properly for actually HtH attacks. Fortunately, it wasn't all that difficult to track down and resolve.

Re: 100AP Project - open Beta[message #198636] Thu, 09 October 2008 10:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Starwalker

 
Messages:767
Registered:October 2005
Location: Hannover, Germany
ChrisL
Jackinthebox
I get a CTD immedialty after I see the Sirtech logo.
If you don't have the MultiPlayer update, then you might run into problems since you'll be missing an INI file (Ja2_mp.ini) the I beleive the code requires to run. Not that 100AP needs it, but since 100AP was built onto the latest code and the latest code needs it.

He might also miss the TITLETEXT_MP.STI in the Data/Loadscreens-folder.
Missing this seems to be a standard error during transition from single-player-only exe to single/multi-player exe.


Re: 100AP Project - open Beta[message #198660] Thu, 09 October 2008 13:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
cougar

 
Messages:256
Registered:March 2000
Ok, something seems to be off with the breath points of enemies. I just did a test with both the current SVN release and the 100AP .exe and here's the results

Current, SVN, Insane difficulty:

Dr Q punches level 6 enemy until he goes down.
Check breath points via GABBI cheat = 0 BP, end turn
Next turn breath points = 0, end turn
Next turn breath points = 16, he gets up


100AP, Insane difficulty:

Dr Q punches level 6 enemy until he goes down.
Check breath points via GABBI cheat = 0 BP, end turn
Next turn breath points = 68 (!)he gets up, end turn and alt+enter cheat to avoid getting shot.
Next turn breath points = 100

This does not seem right to me, it appears they recover breath points a lot quicker than before. To keep an enemy down you need to give several punches (4-5 or even more) when they are down as opposed to once or in some cases twice with the SVN release.
Re: 100AP Project - open Beta[message #198665] Thu, 09 October 2008 15:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Starwalker

 
Messages:767
Registered:October 2005
Location: Hannover, Germany
There could be a relation between AP and BP, it can be seen from the name of some of the constants in the APBPConstants.ini:

BP_PER_AP_NO_EFFORT
BP_PER_AP_MIN_EFFORT
BP_PER_AP_LT_EFFORT
BP_PER_AP_MOD_EFFORT

Maybe these are for BP recovery (negative values) per unspent AP, and were not adjusted properly.
While you are at it, can you try to uncomment these four entries in the ini, divide their values by 4, and see what happens?


Re: 100AP Project - open Beta[message #198668] Thu, 09 October 2008 15:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
cougar

 
Messages:256
Registered:March 2000
By uncomment I assume you mean remove the ; and the description above, right?
Re: 100AP Project - open Beta[message #198669] Thu, 09 October 2008 16:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Starwalker

 
Messages:767
Registered:October 2005
Location: Hannover, Germany
cougar
By uncomment I assume you mean remove the ; and the description above, right?

Yes, for the ; and no for the description above it Smile

[Updated on: Thu, 09 October 2008 16:01] by Moderator



Re: 100AP Project - open Beta[message #198679] Thu, 09 October 2008 16:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
cougar

 
Messages:256
Registered:March 2000
Definitely an improvement. I haven't tested it that much now but the two tests I ran had much less BP when they got up than before. 12-21 as opposed to 70-100.

I will do more extensive testing later tonight.
Re: 100AP Project - open Beta[message #198698] Thu, 09 October 2008 19:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ctiberious

 
Messages:605
Registered:March 2007
Ok. I'll take a look at those BP values and see what needs to be done to them. Probably just need to run them through the same dynamic readjustment function I'm using for the rest of the AP values. We didn't extensively test the BP system since we really didn't make any changes to it (other then externalizing the values). So there may be other BP related bugs we'll need to track down and resolve. I'll fix them as we find them. Smile

Re: 100AP Project - open Beta[message #198806] Fri, 10 October 2008 16:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
cougar

 
Messages:256
Registered:March 2000
A minor problem is that every gun now shows the con Slow Firing due to their higher AP cost.
So if it's possible to change that AP threshold it would be great, if not it might be a good idea to remove it altogether. It didn't make anything useful before, everyone could see the AP cost at the same screen anyway. and definitely not now.
Re: 100AP Project - open Beta[message #198812] Fri, 10 October 2008 19:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ctiberious

 
Messages:605
Registered:March 2007
I've just uploaded a new build. This build fixes the "slow firing" thing by externalizing the "BAD_AP_COST" value. I also think I've corrected the BP issue by running those four BP values though a modified adjuster (since we want them to go up as AP_MAXIMUM goes down).

The archive can be found, as always, at the FTP site. The only two files that have changed is the executable and the INI file. Notice that I've reduced the default settings for the BP values we were having problems with:
;BP_PER_AP_NO_EFFORT = -50
;BP_PER_AP_MIN_EFFORT = -25
;BP_PER_AP_LT_EFFORT = -12
;BP_PER_AP_MOD_EFFORT = 6
These would be the 100AP settings. Unfortunately the LT and MOD values will not reset exactly to a 25AP system. The old values (-50 and 25) were not evenly divisible by 4. Hopefully it's close enough.

Re: 100AP Project - open Beta[message #198991] Mon, 13 October 2008 03:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Marlboro Man

 
Messages:1203
Registered:October 2005
Location: USA
Everything seems kosher. Smile Haven't noticed any other peculiarities with this last build.


Re: 100AP Project - open Beta[message #199092] Tue, 14 October 2008 09:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
virus_found

 
Messages:7
Registered:February 2008
Location: Moscow

and? is this going to be merged into the main SVN branch in the near future?
Re: 100AP Project - open Beta[message #199149] Tue, 14 October 2008 22:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ctiberious

 
Messages:605
Registered:March 2007
We've only been beta testing for a couple of weeks, now. It'll be at least a few more before I take this to the rest of the 1.13 Team for inclusion into the main code branch. Gotta be patient, virus. Smile

And I'll have a new build in the next few hours. We've added an externalized "Unjam" AP/BP cost to the system. I'll post when the new build is ready for download.

Re: 100AP Project - open Beta[message #199152] Tue, 14 October 2008 22:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
virus_found

 
Messages:7
Registered:February 2008
Location: Moscow

ok, I see Smile I'll be testing gladly, but while it uses a separate *.exe - it's quite an inconvenience, because I can't use EDB with it
Re: 100AP Project - open Beta[message #199163] Wed, 15 October 2008 00:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ctiberious

 
Messages:605
Registered:March 2007
Sorry, virus. EDB is a seperate code change from 100AP. Headrock (hopefully like most coders) uses the code that's been added to the main code branch. And new code is only added when it's been approved. Minor bugfixes get added to the code branch all the time, but larger features (like EDB and 100AP) have to be tested alot more since there is more involved in their implementations.

And, unfortunately, both 100AP and EDB require significant changes to the executable. Neither can be done simply with xml or ini changes (these aren't simple mods, after all Smile ). So for the time being you won't be able to test 100AP with EDB (or vice versa).

Re: 100AP Project - open Beta[message #199202] Wed, 15 October 2008 15:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Arquebus

 
Messages:68
Registered:June 2008
Location: Oslo Norway
hmm
think i have to install ja2 alot of places just to try all this funky new shi* out.
i need a new hardrive
Re: 100AP Project - open Beta[message #199205] Wed, 15 October 2008 16:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Starwalker

 
Messages:767
Registered:October 2005
Location: Hannover, Germany
Arquebus
hmm
think i have to install ja2 alot of places just to try all this funky new shi* out.
i need a new hardrive

I have multiple shortcuts on my desktop to various exe-files, and several data-folders.
I just have to remember to adjust the JA2.ini each time...


Re: 100AP Project - open Beta[message #199227] Wed, 15 October 2008 19:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ctiberious

 
Messages:605
Registered:March 2007
I don't have the multiple shortcuts, but multiple data-folders is a must. Smile

Re: 100AP Project - open Beta[message #199229] Wed, 15 October 2008 20:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Headrock

 
Messages:1774
Registered:March 2006
Location: Jerusalem
Hehehe I just make a dozen installs of JA2 Razz

I buy the biggest Hard-Drives I can afford... I ALWAYS end up filling them to capacity anyway.


Re: 100AP Project - open Beta[message #199231] Wed, 15 October 2008 20:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ctiberious

 
Messages:605
Registered:March 2007
Just posted a new build for you guys. This build includes all the bug fixes from the latest source code, plus a couple I haven't yet had a chance to commit. It also externalizes the unjamming AP/BP costs. The only thing you really need from the archive are the new EXE and INI files. Nothing else has really changed.

100AP.8 2375 Release.7z

Re: 100AP Project - open Beta[message #199246] Thu, 16 October 2008 00:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Marlboro Man

 
Messages:1203
Registered:October 2005
Location: USA
Thanks for the update. Be glad when I can get more time to sit and play again. Smile


Re: 100AP Project - open Beta[message #199278] Thu, 16 October 2008 12:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
cougar

 
Messages:256
Registered:March 2000
I have played with the 100AP system on two different computers (XP and Vista) and I have had zero problems besides those already reported and fixed. Just wanted to let you know that. Smile
Re: 100AP Project - open Beta[message #199541] Mon, 20 October 2008 19:21 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
gmonk

 
Messages:644
Registered:April 2002
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Pardon me if this has been answered somewhere I missed.

Is the NIV stuff included in this beta exe? Not that it really matters, I guess, I'm still gonna try it out.
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