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Melee Weapons Efficiency?[message #205864] Thu, 08 January 2009 17:40 Go to next message
K33N

 
Messages:24
Registered:January 2009
Location: Sweden
Why should i use bladed and blunted weapons instead of silenced weapons...
I know there are rambo knives and crowbars that serve multiple uses, but could i use such weapons in close combat with efficiency?
Re: Melee Weapons Efficiency?[message #205870] Thu, 08 January 2009 17:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
systemfehler

 
Messages:114
Registered:September 2007
Location: Hanover, Germany
In case of miss or overpentrating there are chances that another enemy hears the bullet hitting a wall or something else and comes looking or even sees the impact and is alerted. Also, knives never run out of ammo or jam and are usually even more silent.
It's also a nice challenge.
Re: Melee Weapons Efficiency?[message #205874] Thu, 08 January 2009 18:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
K33N

 
Messages:24
Registered:January 2009
Location: Sweden
Hehe very true, but there are some knives that run out of ammo though...Knife gun

But i could see its challenge, but not its usefulness Smile
Re: Melee Weapons Efficiency?[message #205875] Thu, 08 January 2009 18:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
cougar

 
Messages:256
Registered:March 2000
Save ammunition when the enemy is down after you have stolen things.
Sneaking up on a lone enemy and knife him from behind, with support of course.
Carrying silenced weapons is harder than carrying a knife as you need constant resupply of ammunition, often this ammunition is some kind of specialty ammunition such as 9x39mm which makes it virtually impossible to acquire with any kind of reliability.
They are more silent than weapons.
Re: Melee Weapons Efficiency?[message #206128] Sun, 11 January 2009 23:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Hairysteed

 
Messages:193
Registered:December 2007
Location: Finland
K33N
Hehe very true, but there are some knives that run out of ammo though...Knife gun

But i could see its challenge, but not its usefulness Smile

Razor: "Damn guns! A knife never runs out of ammo!"
K33N: "Oh really? Check out this video!"

Very Happy
Re: Melee Weapons Efficiency?[message #206139] Mon, 12 January 2009 01:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sphinx

 
Messages:43
Registered:February 2007
Also, using a knife improves merc's DEX. Sneak behind the enemy, punch him unconscious and then stab him. Or just stab him.
Re: Melee Weapons Efficiency?[message #206140] Mon, 12 January 2009 01:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kaerar

 
Messages:2046
Registered:January 2003
Location: Australia :D
If you just stab and go for the head (with a knifing expert) you have a high chance of a silent insta-kill


Re: Melee Weapons Efficiency?[message #206178] Mon, 12 January 2009 16:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shadow

 
Messages:39
Registered:December 2008
Location: Argentina
Head or neck (throat)?
Re: Melee Weapons Efficiency?[message #206179] Mon, 12 January 2009 17:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kaerar

 
Messages:2046
Registered:January 2003
Location: Australia :D
I haven't gone stabby stabby for a while so I can't recall. But I think its the throat if that is an option.


Re: Melee Weapons Efficiency?[message #206190] Mon, 12 January 2009 20:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
MikeThePro

 
Messages:175
Registered:November 2007
Location: Bulgaria

Hmm I always have seen knifing as an option to show how cool your chara is, not to seriously rely on it in battle.
Re: Melee Weapons Efficiency?[message #206191] Mon, 12 January 2009 20:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Watchman

 
Messages:102
Registered:August 2008
Location: Philippines
Knifing is good if you really want to take out an enemy quickly. It's best done at night and with a merc with at least descent Agi and Dex.
Re: Melee Weapons Efficiency?[message #206209] Tue, 13 January 2009 01:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
MikeThePro

 
Messages:175
Registered:November 2007
Location: Bulgaria

Yeah, but sneaking behind the enemy...running up to them, and trying to kill them with the remaining AP only to miss them(becauswe they happen to be agile too later in game)...or even worse-only to discover another enemy nearby(who definitely sees the merc)...it's too risky.And if the guy misses(happens even with my 100/100 maxed out IMP), then the next turn the opponent enjoys emptying out a clip in his head.
Re: Melee Weapons Efficiency?[message #206215] Tue, 13 January 2009 04:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sphinx

 
Messages:43
Registered:February 2007
There's sort of an exploit to close up on the enemy unnoticed, with very good success. Here's how it goes.

1. Notice an enemy during a night-op, his back facing you
2. Enter stealth mode and start advancing towards him
3. Leave few APs, enough to turn around.
4. Turn around so that you can't see the enemy anymore
5. Hit "L" and place mouse cursor over where the enemy was, or thereabouts. don't click yet.
6. Hit "D" to end turn and instantly after that click LMB
7. Voila. Full APs and the first turn.

This way you can sneak right up to the next tile where the enemy is standing (behind him of course) and start stabbing at him with full APs. Enemy won't ever get a chance to inspect the noise your merc makes if you turn fast enough after hitting End Turn.

Neck stabs are not absolutely necessary, stealth stabs to torso do extra damage too, I think. I kinda boosted the melee damage so melee is pretty brutal for me anyway...
Re: Melee Weapons Efficiency?[message #206360] Wed, 14 January 2009 23:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
viracicha

 
Messages:103
Registered:November 2007
during a storm there is no line of sight, and men miss a lot with guns, take a knife and run to your ennemy, it's efficient.
Re: Melee Weapons Efficiency?[message #206379] Thu, 15 January 2009 09:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jpg

 
Messages:44
Registered:January 2009
Location: north of Paris, France
MikeThePro
Yeah, but sneaking behind the enemy...running up to them, and trying to kill them with the remaining AP only to miss them(becauswe they happen to be agile too later in game)...or even worse-only to discover another enemy nearby(who definitely sees the merc)...it's too risky.And if the guy misses(happens even with my 100/100 maxed out IMP), then the next turn the opponent enjoys emptying out a clip in his head.


The most frustrating when sneaking behind an ennemy to kill him in hand to hand combat is when he doesn't detect you but just walk away as you were just getting close enough to kill him next round.
Re: Melee Weapons Efficiency?[message #206407] Thu, 15 January 2009 16:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
finnpalm

 
Messages:84
Registered:October 2008
Location: Sweden
I agree with that. I've tried to use knifing in the game several times (because I consider it a waste to not use all options in the game) and more often than not you get frustrated because the enemy just walks away, or you get your head blown to bits because they hear you and spin around and empty their gun in your face. The only use I've found with knifing is if I manage to run and dodge behind cover until I'm as close as possible to my target, and then I just take two quick steps and gut them. Hopefully. But even then often they dodge the attack. So obviously I'm doing something wrong because I see more than one person on the boards praising Razor and talking about how good knifing is. Got any advice? I don't play 1.13 (yet) so I don't have access to any fancy schmancy settings or special weapons thank you very much.
Re: Melee Weapons Efficiency?[message #206410] Thu, 15 January 2009 16:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
systemfehler

 
Messages:114
Registered:September 2007
Location: Hanover, Germany
I actually prefer hth over knifing. After all, a good hth character can bring down an enemy with one or two hits, either with his bare fists or knuckle dusters or a crowbar. Even if the enemy's not hurt he usually goes down and then the next hit won't miss. With knifing, chances are good that you wound an enemy critically while he can still return a burst in the next round, even if he dropped his gun.
Re: Melee Weapons Efficiency?[message #206447] Fri, 16 January 2009 00:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sphinx

 
Messages:43
Registered:February 2007
Finn
I don't play 1.13 (yet)

Lol. Oh man... melee combat in vanilla JA2 was a pain.
Re: Melee Weapons Efficiency?[message #206467] Fri, 16 January 2009 08:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Arquebus

 
Messages:68
Registered:June 2008
Location: Oslo Norway
so knifing is a game exploit?

use noobtubes, mg fire, grenades and mortars.

works even during day figthing
Re: Melee Weapons Efficiency?[message #206470] Fri, 16 January 2009 09:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kaerar

 
Messages:2046
Registered:January 2003
Location: Australia :D
Not so helpful when you are short on any decent guns Sad

Currently in one of my test's I had to retreat from a sector cos it was daytime vs the infinite range pistols :angry:


Re: Melee Weapons Efficiency?[message #206472] Fri, 16 January 2009 09:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Arquebus

 
Messages:68
Registered:June 2008
Location: Oslo Norway
no it isnt
Re: Melee Weapons Efficiency?[message #206475] Fri, 16 January 2009 13:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
finnpalm

 
Messages:84
Registered:October 2008
Location: Sweden
Sphinx
Finn
I don't play 1.13 (yet)

Lol. Oh man... melee combat in vanilla JA2 was a pain.


Are you sure they didn't make it so for a reason? Like realism?
Re: Melee Weapons Efficiency?[message #206478] Fri, 16 January 2009 13:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Starwalker

 
Messages:767
Registered:October 2005
Location: Hannover, Germany
Finn
Sphinx
Finn
I don't play 1.13 (yet)

Lol. Oh man... melee combat in vanilla JA2 was a pain.


Are you sure they didn't make it so for a reason? Like realism?

If the original developers aimed at realism, then they missed by much where a few other things are concerned Wink


Re: Melee Weapons Efficiency?[message #206484] Fri, 16 January 2009 14:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kaerar

 
Messages:2046
Registered:January 2003
Location: Australia :D
Yeah they knew they were making a game about guns, not melee combat. The Martial Arts moves look like they were more tests on what could be done (also happen to be the largest animations in the game...).

However now things have moved on a bit I think, as Khor1255 and I discussed earlier, that melee could be made into something far more interesting and a viable alternative when conducting spec ops in game (like night ops and using stealthy, HtH, or knifing characters).


Re: Melee Weapons Efficiency?[message #206561] Sat, 17 January 2009 22:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Starwalker

 
Messages:767
Registered:October 2005
Location: Hannover, Germany
Kaerar
Yeah they knew they were making a game about guns,

Given some gun-data on the original JA2's guns and some attachments, I'd argue that Wink


Re: Melee Weapons Efficiency?[message #206575] Sun, 18 January 2009 04:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kaerar

 
Messages:2046
Registered:January 2003
Location: Australia :D
Never said they knew anything about the guns (like making a hole in the front of the G11 to be a strap ring when on the G11 its a side based ring both sides at the front!).


Re: Melee Weapons Efficiency?[message #213557] Sun, 19 April 2009 02:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
infini_zx

 
Messages:14
Registered:April 2009
How about some CQC like in MGS3. Sneak up on an enemy, throw/knock an him to the ground & steal/disarm his gun in one move.
Re: Melee Weapons Efficiency?[message #217017] Sun, 17 May 2009 13:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
MikeThePro

 
Messages:175
Registered:November 2007
Location: Bulgaria

That's definitely a good way to play:Have a well trained merc or IMP equip the stealth suit, give him all kind of throwable blades and melee weapons...maybe even a silenced pistol and the fun can start
Re: Melee Weapons Efficiency?[message #258197] Mon, 02 August 2010 16:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bouben

 
Messages:13
Registered:November 2009
I personally think, that meele attack should cost less APs than it costs right now. Otherwise it has only little advantages and there is no motivation to do that.
Re: Melee Weapons Efficiency?[message #258379] Wed, 04 August 2010 05:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
shampoobrain

 
Messages:5
Registered:June 2010
Melee attacks are pretty useful if your merc meets a few requirements:

a) Night ops is extremely handy if you want to effectively use melee attacks. First of all, it lets you spot enemies before they spot you, after which you can engage or retreat after assessing the situation. Secondly, attacking during the night lets you finish off enemies quietly without alerting others. But most importantly, it helps you to get as close to an enemy as possible without alerting them - of course, stealth plays a part in this, but night ops plays a much bigger role, and furthermore, any character with good attributes and a decent level can be good at stealth even without having the stealth skill, so my point is that the stealth skill is not necessary (although it helps during the lower levels).

b) Your merc should have many action points, which comes mainly from your agility and your level. After spotting an enemy with night ops you should turn off stealth and sprint to the enemy only if you have enough points for 3 to 4 attacks (9 to 12 action points), which is more than enough to leave any enemy unconscious. Even if you're not engaging in night ops, you want enough action points to run up to an enemy and have 3 attacks, but this will be much harder because enemies will be able to see you and will probably shoot you before you get close enough, which is why night ops is so awesome.

c) High level, for the better interrupts and the better stealth and accuracy and everything else, but mainly for the better interrupts. This is especially nice for the peek-a-boo enemies that will run right in front of your merc who is hiding behind a corner. Come on, don't tell me you never employed the strategy of waiting behind a corner while enemy after dumb enemy runs in front of your line of sight, leaving a nice pile of dead bodies in the same spot. Since night ops cannot be used indoors or underground, your interrupts will be the key to melee combat.

So let's narrow down the situations where you can use melee combat:

1) It's the dark of night and you sneak up to an enemy without alerting others. By the time he hears your running foot steps you're in his face unloading a flurry of punches. In this scenario you're actually creating and initiating the sequence, and therefore you need an agile character who is suited for night time and stealthy combat. A merc that can do this is the most desirable in terms of effective melee combat.

2) An enemy suddenly popped up in front of your merc who was sitting behind a corner. You only need to move a few spaces before you can engage in melee combat so you have plenty of action points. There's no need for stealth or night ops here. Anyone can do this quite frankly, even a character without any melee skills, because you'll have around 5 to 7 attacks.

3) San Mona extreme fighting


So let's take a look at the mercs who have melee skills.

Bubba: No night ops, horrible dexterity (68) and agility (54), but awesome strength (98). Cannot initiate many melee combat opportunities; poor accuracy and low action points; hits like a mule but will have trouble actually getting to an enemy in order to hit them.
Bull: No night ops, horrible dexterity (44) and agility (59), but awesome strength (98) and expert in hand to hand. Cannot initiate many melee combat opportunities; expert hand to hand gives him good accuracy and supreme damage; arguably the best character for extreme fighting, but not much else.
Fidel: No night ops, average dexterity (64) and good agility (83). Psycho bonus to punching accuracy! Pretty good thanks to psycho, but the lack of night ops won't have him creating opportunities much.
Grizzly: No night ops, horrible dexterity (50), slightly below average agility (69), great strength (95). Cannot create many opportunities and doesn't have enough stats for accuracy and action points.
Malice: No night ops, superb dexterity (97), good agility (81) and high strength (89). Choice of hand to hand and knifing. Amazing accuracy and good damage, but the lack of night ops will limit his number of melee opportunities.
Thor: No night ops but has stealthy; good dexterity (84) and good agility (83), high strength (89). Well-balanced stats all around, and stealthy will help in creating melee combat opportunities; Thor seems like the perfect character, but the fact remains that night ops > stealthy, and martial arts > hand to hand (which I'll get into later). Nonetheless, Thor is still pretty good for melee combat.
Blood: No night ops, high dexterity (87), awesome agility (94), decent strength (82). Great stats for melee combat, but once again no night ops. Nonetheless, Blood is still a fine melee character thanks to his great stats.
Dr Q: Night ops! Decent dexterity (81), awesome agility (92), weak strength (73). Finally, a melee combat character with night ops! And thank goodness he's an agile type! Good accuracy and action points, but low damage. However, he has high wisdom (91) and the strength will increase very quickly (and all you need is about 80-85) (Correction: wisdom does not influence the growth of physical attributes, but still, using night ops you'll have tons more opportunities to punch people in the face than if you didn't have night ops - in my most recent playthrough my Dr Q had 89 strength just from beating people up (no cows, no overload-then-travel-then-cancel exploits (not that it works in version 1.07 anyway), no forcing doors open with crowbars, etc). With a bit of strength training, Dr. Q has the potential to be the best melee character in the game, but even in the beginning he is the most effective melee character when using night operations.
Numb: Night ops! Bad dexterity (61), average agility (72), decent strength (78). Sweet! Another night ops character! Sadly his stats are a bit lacking. He's inferior to Dr. Q in pretty much everything; his high marksmanship is not much of a factor considering that by the time you can hire him Dr. Q will have gained 20-30 points in marksmanship (and will have higher strength too). Honestly, there's no reason to choose Numb over Dr. Q unless it's for personal reasons.

Okay, now this is my take on martial arts versus hand to hand.

Martial arts is better. Here's why I think so:

First of all, martial arts has way more passive bonuses. Reduced sleep is an amazing bonus that is always effective; it allows Dr. Q to have a sleep score of 4! Increased dodging against knives, blood cats, and punches is always nice to have. Hand to hand only gets a small bonus against punches, which enemies will rarely use anyway.

Secondly, martial arts is just more effective for combat. Accuracy is more important than damage when your enemy has a gun. Let's say that, following the scenario I laid out above, you sneaked your way to an enemy and now you have 4 attacks before you run out of action points. And you need 3 punches to knock down your enemy. The most important thing is to actually hit your enemy. If he's still standing at the end of the turn you're going to eat a lot of bullets. So, first of all, martial arts has a double bonus to accuracy compared to hand to hand, so right there you have a better chance of hitting. Second, the spinning kick is an awesome move. It comes out when the enemy has less than half of their energy remaining, and it does double damage and most importantly will never miss, so what that means is that if you get two attacks in with martial arts your third one will be unmissable (and will do double damage) essentially guaranteeing an unconscious enemy. However, hand to hand has an ace up its sleeve in the form of the crowbar, but it doesn't help with accuracy and it will take up one of your inventory slots.

[Updated on: Fri, 06 August 2010 21:18] by Moderator

Re: Melee Weapons Efficiency?[message #258542] Fri, 06 August 2010 07:34 Go to previous message
usrbid

 
Messages:1539
Registered:December 2008
Hand-to-hand
Increases hand-to-hand attack damage by 45%. (2)
Increased chance to hit in Hand-to-Hand and blunt-weapon attacks by 15% (2)
Increases chance to dodge Hand-to-Hand or Blunt-Weapon attacks by 15%, if you're not armed with a knife. (2)

Martial Arts
Reduces time required for sleep, as well as the speed at which the character loses fatigue. (2)
Increases damage in hand-to-hand and blunt-weapon combat by 30%. (2)
Increases chance-to-hit in hand-to-hand and blunt-weapon combat by 30% (2)
Increases chance to dodge knife attack by 10%, if you're also armed with a knife. (2)
Increases chance to dodge knife attack by 15%, if you're not armed with a knife. (2)
Increases chance to dodge Hand-to-Hand or Blunt-Weapon attacks by 30%, if you're not armed with a knife. (2)
Please note: Martial artists do NOT get a damage bonus from Brass Knuckles or other blunt weapons!

Source: http://jaggedalliance2.pbworks.com/Skills (I think I actually got this from one of Headrock's posts)


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