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Crap I never use. . .[message #219181] Fri, 05 June 2009 04:13 Go to next message
Cribbie

 
Messages:179
Registered:March 2004
Location: Grand Rapids, Michigan
I've never used smoke grenades. I rarely use grenades, thrown ones, anyway. Although my merc's are loaded for bear, each carrying at least six grenades, unless I have someone in my squad who's good at throwing, i.e. Sidney or Blood, they're more of a hazard to one another then to the enemy. Any one else carrying a bunch of stuff that they've never used, just in case? "Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it."
I'm very careful to not have my merc's go over 100% weight. But I'm curious, at what point does weight become an issue? 105% 110% How many action points do you lose at what weight? Just wondering. . .
Re: Crap I never use. . .[message #219186] Fri, 05 June 2009 05:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
usrbid

 
Messages:1552
Registered:December 2008
Hi Cribbie, I am paranoid, I don't go over 99% weight, I don't know how the game would handle 100.4% for overland travel on foot, I know internally it still keeps track of the fractions, you can test that.

Stuff that I carry and rarely use: KCB knife (only used to cut 2 fences in Grumm), gas mask (usually wear extended ear and sun goggles), submachine gun with AP and HP ammo (only used for close 1-5 tiles enemy or bloodcat), cammo kits (only used to hunt down last enemy in sector), glow sticks (only used when enemies bunch up at night, the problem is that enemies will leave the lit area in their next turn), toolkit (usually do repair in cities and use the toolkit from the sector inventory), commando mortar & 3 mustard gas shells (only used when enemies draw in additional forces from adjacent sectors, and then not always).

Please keep in mind that I typically play on Insane in Iron Man, so some gear choices cater to this style like for example the extended ear is more useful at night to catch enemies trying to flank you.


By the way smoke grenades are highly underestimated, they provide close to perfect protection from being shot. Let's say you have enemies advancing toward your team, and there are more enemies than you can shoot down every round. Eventually one or two enemies will stop at a position where they can see a couple of your mercs and you won't be able to shoot them down before your round is over.

This means that these enemies left standing now act as spotters for all other enemies in the sector. In the enemies next round every enemy gets to spend all their APs to shoot the mercs from your team the spotters can see.

Other than the obvious, that the spotted mercs will be in a world of hurt, the other results will be:
1. The enemy snipers will raise their guns and look through their scopes allowing them to see other mercs from your team. Now these scoped gun enemies will act as spotters until they move and lose track of your team again.
2. Enemies with auto fire guns will start spraying bullets toward your mercs who have been spotted. This may result in stray bullets randomly hitting other team members.

Smoke grenades fix this effectively by imposing a severe aim penalty to the enemies who are further away, possibly also making it much harder for the enemy spotters to hit your mercs as well. Also if the smoke is think enough, the enemy spotters may lose sight of the mercs they initially spotted, completely fixing the situatiion.


Stun grenades are pretty good too when you have enemies bunch up at night. Also there are 2-3 maps where you need to throw a stun grenade into a room otherwise you will get shot. At night you may get into a situation where 6-12 enemies are bunched up 8-12 tiles away from your team, which is a big danger. If one of them decides to take the risk and get close enough to act as a spotter, the remaining may run toward your team and start shooting the same round.

The way you handle this is throw a glow stick, followed by a stun grenade in the same round. Now the problem is that the stunned enemies will get up and do stuff in the next round (mostly run away which is annoying too). To counter that you can throw two defensive grenades (which stuns them even more) or (my personal favorite) a tear gas grenade. The tear gas will have enough time to spread, the enemies usually drop their guns after the stun grenade hits them, now the enemies can't get their guns because they are still in the tear gas cloud on the ground.


Re: Crap I never use. . .[message #219190] Fri, 05 June 2009 06:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kaerar

 
Messages:2050
Registered:January 2003
Location: Australia :D
Mustard gas is also pretty good for that last tactic as well as the VOG launched grenades (massive AoE).

I tend to carry a lot of pistols and SMG's for CQB but they tend to get used only rarely if I plan a mission right. I use grenades a lot though and find they are very successful in their job. Only complaint is they don't travel far enough for the most part.

I find myself carrying but not using LAW's and other heavy weapons for the most part. Don't like them much and think they are a bit cheap except for Tanks. Even sniper wise I don't tend to go above the MSG-90/PSG-1 sort of guns.


Re: Crap I never use. . .[message #219191] Fri, 05 June 2009 06:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
tbird94lx

 
Messages:693
Registered:April 2002
Location: ohhhhhh canada
i always make an imp with heavy/throwing traits and make sure she has a couple smoke/mustard/illum and frag grenades on her person..i dicovered..she can throw like them blackshirt elite pistol/grenade sniper enemies if she stands up Very Happy the smoke grenades have saved my team alot..i play on insane mode


Re: Crap I never use. . .[message #219192] Fri, 05 June 2009 06:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Cribbie

 
Messages:179
Registered:March 2004
Location: Grand Rapids, Michigan
Hmmm. I don't use gas masks much either, well to be exact, never. I got burned in an early game, early meaning like five years ago, when I found that marksmanship suffered when wearing one, so now, no. I find myself carrying LAW's when I find them, thinking, "I'll need these for tanks", then I end up lugging them all over creation, when by the time I meet up with some tanks, it's late to end game and I can order them from Bobby Ray's. How's this for an idea? Of course you pay a penalty for too much weight, over 100%, but how about a reward for less weight, more action points when you're below 50%?
Re: Crap I never use. . .[message #219243] Fri, 05 June 2009 14:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Majek

 
Messages:442
Registered:January 2003
Location: Slovenia
Why a reward for no real reason?? And a reward to go over your physical limit even???
Re: Crap I never use. . .[message #219245] Fri, 05 June 2009 14:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lamach_Head

 
Messages:423
Registered:November 2008
Location: Mars
Cribbie:
Nonsense, you can't start flying just beacause you carry nothing.
Tanks can be aslo destroyed by frag grenades, if you lack any heavy equipment.


Re: Crap I never use. . .[message #219301] Fri, 05 June 2009 19:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mauser

 
Messages:780
Registered:August 2006
Location: Bavaria - Germany
personally i pracitcally never use stun grenades, flashbangs, tear gas or smoke grenades.

instead of stun grenades, offensive and defensive granades just make a lot more sense because they cause just as much stamina loss as real damage. flashbangs would only be useful if you actually want to capture someone alive, but where in JA2 do you have to do that? maybe in a future mod?

tear gas only disables the enemy, whilst mustard gas also seriously damages and kills them, so why go for less?

and smoke grenades just have too little tactical use in the current game, except maybe for blocking off the view for snipers and tanks or hiding critically wounded mercs and medics from enemy view and fire.

if a merc gets critically wounded, drop a smoke grenade on him so he

☆★GL★☆
Re: Crap I never use. . .[message #219436] Sat, 06 June 2009 04:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kaerar

 
Messages:2050
Registered:January 2003
Location: Australia :D
I disagree on the melee side of things. Melee is the most effective form of damage compared to guns for the damage/rof. Unless you have a Glock 18 with AET or equivalent. Then melee is pointless Sad


Re: Crap I never use. . .[message #219442] Sat, 06 June 2009 05:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
usrbid

 
Messages:1552
Registered:December 2008
Yep, forgot shaped charges, never use them, well mostly because Barry with a couple levels can open any door (except the one in Orta) and disable any trap. However to be fair, shaped charges don't open doors, they just weaken the lock, you still need to use someone like Bull with a crowbar to pry it open afterward.

I am not sure if smoke will help for melee, once your merc gets close enough to the enemy to be able to attack *next* round, the enemy will see your merc I believe, even in smoke.

Mustard gas damages enemy equipment, I prefer tear gas and then hand to hand as I don't want to damge my own equipment. For some reason knuckle dusters don't wear down through use.

Mustard gas can also be used to do a silent kill at a distance at night (if the enemy doesn't have a gas mask). For example in I3 at night, if your team is in the north west (top left) corner, the enemies will run all over the map and not be able to find you - ever. You need to send a guy out to drag them in. A couple mustard gas cans can take out a few guys in the middle before the enemies pour into the corner.

Knives ignore armor. Someone like Haywire or Razor can kill an enemy in 2-3 torso attacks, 3 attacks in the majority of cases. It would be 2 attacks if they could hit the neck, which they are not so good at. Attacking wounded enemies lying on the ground kills them in 1-2 hits though, one hit in most cases.

Hand to hand can disable an enemy in 2-3 hits depending on the mercs strength. A new Bull has a 40% chance to make an enemy unconscious on the first hit. Malice can do it reliable in 2 hits, Dr Q and Blood need 3 hits. So knives are one attack less effective than HtH when the enemy is standing, but kill one attack faster when the enemy already dropped to the ground.

About throwing knives, something is not right with the CTH display, I get less than 20-30% in the CTH display (with Blood) but I almost always hit. Could it be that throwing skill bonus is not included when CTH is displayed?


Re: Crap I never use. . .[message #219445] Sat, 06 June 2009 05:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
tbird94lx

 
Messages:693
Registered:April 2002
Location: ohhhhhh canada
my throwing/heavy imp usually comes with some heavy throwing knives or shuriken(using dbb-mod)..on the odd occasion i've tried them..the range was maybe 10 and she scored a hit..doing about 30 damage..she then ducked down and the enemy next turn just sorta stood there not knowing..was no noise..he didnt spot my imp...so..she threw her other knife and kileld him..at no time did he move or realize..umm..knives be protrudin from me O.o


Re: Crap I never use. . .[message #219479] Sat, 06 June 2009 07:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
funk

 
Messages:45
Registered:March 2008
smoke grenades/any ones that dont no bang
submachine guns
glow stick
stun grenades i use them only if i have no better grenades
i never use gas weapons (some one will hide in the cloud with a mask and shoot you up)
shaped charges\lockpicks\them funny shotgun shells never i just shoot up the lock or use a grenade\TNT

most sniper rifles(you get a M14 and like it)
the full auto shotguns(to big)
sunglass every one uses a gas mask at all times.
Re: Crap I never use. . .[message #219518] Sat, 06 June 2009 11:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kindred

 
Messages:122
Registered:September 2006
Location: Australia, baby!
Smoke grenades and light sticks are a must for me. I always have my mercs carrying at least one smoke and two light sticks.
All of them carry sidearms in case of a jam with enemies right on top of them, and anybody with a semi-automatic longarm takes a compact SMG like the MP5K or MAC-10 or has a machine pistol sidearm.
Most of my people carry KCB knives so they can cut through fences, and at least one in each squad carries a KB Cutlass or Rambo Knife for taking terrorist heads.
Anybody with a vest or leg LBE slot has a gas mask, and the rest of them just have to pray that the bad guys don't pop mustard gas.
Anybody with throwing ability carries frag or HE grenades, though I don't often use them because it seems every one I throw ends up landing under a civillian's feet.
Re: Crap I never use. . .[message #221492] Tue, 16 June 2009 22:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Cribbie

 
Messages:179
Registered:March 2004
Location: Grand Rapids, Michigan
I've been very careful with mustard gas since my last game when I found my militia kept running into it and turning hostile towards me. But this makes me ask the question, how much damage can you inflict on a militia member before they all go postal on you? It's not just a stray shot, but do you have to outright kill one of them? And seemingly, the militia knows the difference between your mustard gas cloud and any of the armies mustard gas clouds. How? And with using smoke grenades, you still have to have a merc with decent thowing skills to use them, right? And at one time, after combat, you could run around and heal the critically wounded members of your militia and gain points in medical skill while doing so. This seems to be not possible any more, or am I all wet here?
Re: Crap I never use. . .[message #221511] Wed, 17 June 2009 00:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
coffeecommander

 
Messages:88
Registered:June 2009
Location: Europe, and pitying you.

I never use smoke or tear gas, mustard gas does both jobs plus killing people.
Also, why use either stun or high explosive weapons when you can have thermobaric ones?
I never pack crowbars, rambo knives take up less space.
And why use knives at all for fighting, a PSM can be fired faster than ANY other type of attack can commence.

And then there's a lot of fancy complicated stuff like explosive charges and detonators...why spend ten minutes preparing to blow somebody up if you can just throw mortar shells at them? Or shoot them, for that matter.
Re: Crap I never use. . .[message #221566] Wed, 17 June 2009 06:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kaerar

 
Messages:2050
Registered:January 2003
Location: Australia :D
There is something gloriously satisfying seeing a load of enemies walk into a trap and get blown to smithereens. All that hard work paid off when you take out 15 in one go with daisy chain explosives rigged to a single remote TNT Very Happy

Not everyone has Jack Thompson's FPS syndrome Wink


Re: Crap I never use. . .[message #221629] Wed, 17 June 2009 14:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
coffeecommander

 
Messages:88
Registered:June 2009
Location: Europe, and pitying you.

Kaerar
Not everyone has Jack Thompson's FPS syndrome Wink

You should self-ban for a comparison as insulting as this ;(
Re: Crap I never use. . .[message #221630] Wed, 17 June 2009 14:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kaerar

 
Messages:2050
Registered:January 2003
Location: Australia :D
The Wink I would have hoped would signify the joke aspect Very Happy


Re: Crap I never use. . .[message #221636] Wed, 17 June 2009 14:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Off_Topic

 
Messages:1037
Registered:January 2009
It could have been worse...

Not everyone has Jack Thompson's FPS syndrome :rifle:


Re: Crap I never use. . .[message #221637] Wed, 17 June 2009 14:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kaerar

 
Messages:2050
Registered:January 2003
Location: Australia :D
Though it's getting to the point that the pigs are so well armoured its the only place to shoot the buggers Wink


Re: Crap I never use. . .[message #221642] Wed, 17 June 2009 14:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Will Gates

 
Messages:1026
Registered:September 2006
Location: Far far away.
To answer Cribbie's question. Gas turn civs & Militia hostile. Mustard the most escpecially on Expert. So will a large timed or remote explosion that clips some militia. Friendly fire won't. Firing at them on purpose will. All gas clouds are owned by the chucker and the game remembers this. The exception to this is where gas is triggered by switch e.g. Tixa where the civs remain neutral towards the guards even if actual damage is added to Teargas.

Re: Crap I never use. . .[message #223305] Thu, 25 June 2009 14:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dzidek1983

 
Messages:88
Registered:June 2009
When i choose NO play style i don't use smoke, gas granades, sun goggles, sniper rifles.
When i choose day attacks i don't use night goggles Razz, and very little short range weapons.

I never use stun granades.
Re: Crap I never use. . .[message #234636] Thu, 08 October 2009 01:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LtDouglas

Messages:2
Registered:September 2009
Location: Brazil
I always carry breaklights and never use...
I hate when its dark and you suddenly get interrupted, a breaklight is thrown at you and all map shoots you -_____-

I always carry it to try to make ''vengeance''...
Re: Crap I never use. . .[message #234638] Thu, 08 October 2009 01:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Logisteric

 
Messages:3381
Registered:December 2008
Location: B
why not throw them first? or even better use 60mm ilumination shells

[Updated on: Thu, 08 October 2009 22:36] by Moderator

Re: Crap I never use. . .[message #234696] Thu, 08 October 2009 22:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
I never use shotguns.
Re: Crap I never use. . .[message #234731] Fri, 09 October 2009 12:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
herb

 
Messages:417
Registered:September 2007
Location: Slovenija
all items in the game have fine purpuse but depends of player which he use. I use almost everything except guns. They are not worth a penny. Short range, low damage... Knife is much better
Re: Crap I never use. . .[message #234781] Fri, 09 October 2009 20:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
At close range, I give my sniper a fn five seven with AET. He usually just puts about 6 or 7 shots in the head of an enemy.
Re: Crap I never use. . .[message #234866] Sun, 11 October 2009 06:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
bismuthdrummer

 
Messages:18
Registered:August 2009
Location: North Dakota, USA

As-is, I've given up the mustard gas since it only affects about 50% of enemies. If the game were a tad more realistic in AI behavior, I might reconsider.

The enemy should never be wearing a gas mask until they see gas. This would make mustard gas 100% effective on the first use, thus ensuring that those first caught within the cloud are toast. That's the only way mustard gas will ever measure up against an explosive for me.
Re: Crap I never use. . .[message #234872] Sun, 11 October 2009 09:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Logisteric

 
Messages:3381
Registered:December 2008
Location: B
take two mortars

1. explosive - it damages the mask
2. gas
Re: Crap I never use. . .[message #234919] Mon, 12 October 2009 07:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
bismuthdrummer

 
Messages:18
Registered:August 2009
Location: North Dakota, USA

Logisteric:

Might work, but does it take out all of the enemies? Why not just use two explosive mortars, which are cheaper?

I'd rather watch them bleed to death than try to pick out the still fairly healthy ones from a cloud of gas whilst they're unloading at me.

Plus... that doesn't help any with the gas grenades. I don't know if the M2K would do enough damage to the masks. Something to try, I guess.

Thanks. Smile
Re: Crap I never use. . .[message #235824] Sat, 24 October 2009 11:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Cloaked

 
Messages:19
Registered:October 2009
Mauser
but much more interesting would be if the enemy would make much more clever use of smoke grenades himself, i.e. to block your snipers and machinegunners from suppressing him whilst he assaults with his superior numbers.


i actually had an enemy shell me with smoke with a mortar, blocking the sniper. he actually did it once per turn then i had 2 blocked snipers. intentional or not, it was effective in buying time for them since i had to move my snipers for like 2-3 other turns to find a firing position.

now, about useless items, just like many people apparently, i havent been using any hand grenades, i only carry them for the possible situation on which i might need it. but it never happened so far. grenade launcher does the job better since i dont need to almost be in range of the blast to throw it, i can actually hide prone and still hit them with extreme prejudice. also, i didnt notice a big change in the APs to throw a grenade and to launch one.

id say: make hand grenades use less APs. also adding an option for priming them and dropping where you stand, that surely would take way less APs than throwing it. doh, no not the explosive ones, but for gas grenades this might save u. im not sure this is possible though.
Re: Crap I never use. . .[message #235825] Sat, 24 October 2009 11:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Cloaked

 
Messages:19
Registered:October 2009
funkmachine
sunglass every one uses a gas mask at all times.


u can use sunglasses and gas mask in JA 1.13, thats my default gear for everyone, except in silent missions or for the guy ordering militias, when i RLY need the extended ears.
Re: Crap I never use. . .[message #235830] Sat, 24 October 2009 11:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Logisteric

 
Messages:3381
Registered:December 2008
Location: B
cloaked
the guy ordering militias

= trainer, as you can't order them from the internet (ebay - "slightly used/not mor than one limp shot off"?)

guess you did want to say "the guy giving orders to militia"
Re: Crap I never use. . .[message #235907] Sun, 25 October 2009 19:40 Go to previous message
Cloaked

 
Messages:19
Registered:October 2009
if i would correct everyone's little language mistakes, id have biggest post count in every forum. but thanks, i rly meant the guy giving orders to militia.
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