Home » MODDING HQ 1.13 » v1.13 Idea Incubation Lab  » Truly Customizable Weapons - proof of concept, issues and feature requests
Truly Customizable Weapons - proof of concept, issues and feature requests[message #258650] Sat, 07 August 2010 14:36 Go to next message
ko5ma

 
Messages:35
Registered:January 2010
Location: Poland
TCW - Truly Customizable Weapons
Proof of concept and a few feature requests


The what and why:

Well, i like micromanagement... Truly Customizable Weapons are something that i've been missing in JA2 for a very long time. The possiblities of accessorizing weapons were vast and getting better each day (NAS!), but internals in both Vanilla and 1.13 are very limited, and mostly done with bullsh... err, "fantasy" items, such as a barrel extender or rod and spring. In reality however, improved/modified internal and external parts, such as match triggers, different gas systems, various railed handguards etc are getting increasingly popular, both in civilian and military environments.
In my opinion TCW is a neat way of adding an additional - but optional - level of complexity into the game, and a bit of extra realism and variety without disrupting the balance (much ;P).


The how:

Thanks to NAS developers we now have a powerful tool to add a lot of attachment slots to any given item. Seeing the way Smeagol is implementing stock replacements for new AIM version has inspired me to try something similar, but different in scope. A TCW can now take not only external accessories, but also a rather wide selection of internal and external parts, both standard and replacement. Most (not all) of the replacement parts are meant not to be straight upgrades - they offer some benefits, but also bring drawbacks. This way using the system does not result in an overpowered ultimate wunderwaffe, but rather gives a choice of what we want our mercs to use for a particular mission, in accordance to their role. Currently the system (limited as it is) is meant to be balanced in order to allow making near copies of existing weapons. As an example, a Custom AR15 built with standard parts to resemble a M4A1 will have similar stats to its non-customizable counterpart. To fully achieve this goal however, some additional xml tags would be needed.
For now, i've decided to go with an empty "framework" item as a base to simplyfy things and limit the amount of items needed, but it could be easily remade to use a receiver (probably best for AK's and such), lower or upper receiver (for AR15's) if some way of merging graphics is developed.
As for realism vs fun balance, i would like to keep everything reasonably true to reality, but gloss over some minor issues - for example, i know that LMT MRP uppers won't accept standard AR15 barrels, i just don't think it's worth making an extra unique set.


Proof of concept:

Here's what a sample system looks like. So far i've implemented a single weapon - Custom AR15 (Custom Glock is pretty much done, plans for the future include a generic 1911 and AK), and a lot of base, internal and external parts (see a more or less complete list below the pics). Screenshots are from the game, not mockups; graphics mostly scavenged from existing pics, some are obviously placeholders. When fully functional, the available parts would allow to replicate pretty much any other AR15-based weapon currently included in game - and many more that aren't. Part list can also be easily extended to include even more options.

http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/7181/tcwscreenshot1.jpg

http://img576.imageshack.us/img576/7923/tcwscreenshot2.th.jpg http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/7564/tcwscreenshot3.th.jpg http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/9518/tcwscreenshot4.th.jpg


Attachment and slot list (attributes not fully implemented due to xml limitations):

Base framework item - Custom AR15

1 Upper receiver slot [defines possible internal attachments; adds top rail OR carryhandle mount]
- A1, A2, Flattop, Billet flattop, MRP short, MRP long, LR300, HK416 short, HK416 long, Shrike belt fed
1.1 Barrel [defines damage, accuracy, range, influences AP; adds muzzle device slot]
- 7", 10", 11.5", 12" SS, 14.5" stepcut, 16" SS, 18" HBAR, 20" stepcut, 22" HBAR, 24" HBAR
1.2 Gas system [influences reliability, recoil]
- DI shorty, DI carbine, DI midlength, DI rifle, Piston
1.3 Handguard [may influence accuracy; adds barrel mount OR 1-8 rail slots]
- Shorty, Shorty RAS, Carbine, Carbine RIS, Midlength, Midlength RAS, Rifle, Rifle RIS, Rifle RAS
1.4 Bolt & carrier [influences rate of fire, recoil]
- Standard, Light, Heavy, High Quality

2 Lower receiver slot [defines available fire modes; adds magazine slot]
- Semi, Burst, Auto, Semi ambi, Auto ambi
2.1 Trigger [may provide a modest bonus to accuracy, reliability OR add autofire to non-auto lowers]
- Standard, Match, Police, Auto sear
2.2 Buffer & spring [influences rate of fire, reliability]
- Standard, Soft, Hard, High Quality, Short
2.3 Pistol grip [may provide a modest bonus to accuracy or recoil]
- Standard, Ergonomic (MIAD), Sniper
2.4 Stock [influences AP, may provide a modest bonus to accuracy]
- Standard telescopic, Standard solid, Improved telescopic (CTR), Improved solid (UBR), Sniper, Folding (LR300), Wire stock
2.5 Magazine [defines magazine size, influences reliability and bipod penalty] (temporary solution until someone comes up with a proper magazine system)
- 20rd GI, 30rd GI, 30rd HK, 30rd PMAG, 40rd custom, 100rd C-MAG, 200rd belt

3 Accessory slots [mostly existing items]
3.1 Carryhandle mount
- Trijicon ACOG, Trijicon Reflex, AN/PVS-4, Carryhandle rail mount
3.2 Top rail mount
- any railed optics
3.3 Barrel mount [only one]
- Barrel-mounted M203 (if allowed by barrel/handguard/upper), flashlight, laser, bipod, small 2x1 or 3x1 rail mount
3.4 Rail slots [up to 4x2]
- any railed attachments including reflex sights, railed grenade launchers (if freefloating), barrel-mounted grenade launchers (if non-ff)
3.5 Muzzle device
- any compatible muzzle device


Issues and feature requests:

As it is right now, the system is mostly functional, but admittedly neither very eye-pleasing nor playable (lack of item seeding, some issues with NAS that need to be fixed first etc). Unfortunately, the remaining problems are related to code rather than xml modifications... And this is where we get to the problematic part - i'm an engineer, not a coder, i just can't do that. There are a few code changes that would be required to make it work as intended:
* needed: tag in items.xml doesn't work, it is required to make proper use of different lower receivers
* needed: it's impossible to modify certain weapon parameters through attachments (most importantly: bAccuracy, bReliability, bAutofireShotsPer5AP, but it would be nice if all weapon parameters could be derived directly from attachments)
* needed: new xml tag in needed in attachmentslots.xml (i.e. weapon with bolt removed - no go)
* needed: some sort of overlay image merging system (something a'la pimpmygun site - separate sti's made in a certain scale, arranged with x,y coordinates to create a complete picture when an item is attached to a slot. Since this would be done for weapon-specific parts, and not accessories, common scale would not be an issue)
* needed: more than 10 default attachment definition (or is it possible right now?)
* wanted: a mid-sized attachment slot
* wanted: possibility of changing caliber via an attachment
* wanted: new non-automatic firing mode for automatic weapons with slide lock/gas cutoff attachments (i.e. needs to be reloaded after each shot like a bolt rifle, but reduces noise by x%, definable as an xml parameter for the slide lock attachment; possible now but permanent rather than selectable)
* luxury: stock position toggle button (collapsed/folded/extended)
* luxury: when displaying weapon "faceplate", would be much more tidy to have a button to toggle display between parts (internal and external - barrel, trigger, stock, handguard, etc) and accessories (optics, muzzle devices, lasers, flashlights etc). Just an idea, not sure if it can even be done without extensive UI reworking.

I would be extremely happy if any of these changes found its way into one of the future 1.13/NAS builds.

Help, please... Very Happy

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Private 1st Class
Re: Truly Customizable Weapons - proof of concept, issues and feature requests[message #258656] Sat, 07 August 2010 15:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Slax is currently offline Slax

 
Messages:1411
Registered:July 2006
Location: People riding polar bears...
Gun-nuts rejoice! Hahaha, I've been dreaming of something like this since the early 2000s.

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Sergeant Major
Re: Truly Customizable Weapons - proof of concept, issues and feature requests[message #258657] Sat, 07 August 2010 15:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
smeagol is currently offline smeagol

 
Messages:2705
Registered:June 2008
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Hui...

That's too much for my taste, though you probably will find a lot of people that love the idea.

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Lieutenant

Re: Truly Customizable Weapons - proof of concept, issues and feature requests[message #258658] Sat, 07 August 2010 15:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gorro der Grüne is currently offline Gorro der Grüne

 
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... but won't do the work

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Sergeant Major
Re: Truly Customizable Weapons - proof of concept, issues and feature requests[message #258660] Sat, 07 August 2010 15:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Faithless is currently offline Faithless

 
Messages:439
Registered:October 2009
Location: The safe end of the barre...
Quote:
* needed: it's impossible to modify certain weapon parameters through attachments (most importantly: bAccuracy, bReliability, bAutofireShotsPer5AP, but it would be nice if all weapon parameters could be derived directly from attachments)
Reliability has been done already in my own personal version of NAS Wink
For the rest, it's best to wait a while for other mods that might change everything (NCTH).

Quote:
* needed: more than 10 default attachment definition (or is it possible right now?)
Not possible in the current builds, and there HAS to be a static limit. It doesn't have to be 10, though.
I would rather not make it too high though, it's memory consuming.

Quote:
* wanted: possibility of changing caliber via an attachment
Quote:
* needed: tag in items.xml doesn't work, it is required to make proper use of different lower receivers

Other people have these on their to-do list already.


The next ones are a "Maybe some day":
Quote:
* wanted: a mid-sized attachment slot
Quote:
* needed: new xml tag in needed in attachmentslots.xml (i.e. weapon with bolt removed - no go)


The rest, I just don't see happening.

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Master Sergeant
Re: Truly Customizable Weapons - proof of concept, issues and feature requests[message #258662] Sat, 07 August 2010 15:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ko5ma

 
Messages:35
Registered:January 2010
Location: Poland
smeagol
Hui...

That's too much for my taste, though you probably will find a lot of people that love the idea.

My intention is to keep it entirely optional - not added to all weapons in game, but selected few, not even droppable by enemies. Perhaps a crappy base rifle you get with your IMP that evolves as you go and find/buy new parts?

And if the problems are solved, i will glue it together with AIM anyway Wink.

Gorro
... but won't do the work

Well, if i could i would. My last experience with coding was on a basic TurboPascal course, in high school, many years ago...

EDIT:
Re Warmsteel, bringer of good news Wink - actually, that would cover the important stuff and make the system function properly. Rest is just cosmetics.

Static limit for default attachments: as it is right now, i would need 11, and want 13 - 10 slots for internal/external parts, 1 for default magazine, 1 for default muzzle attachment, 1 for default optics/sights (last two being optional).

As for the image merging system, i have a certain idea for a (messy) "hackjob" that i'll test later today.

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Private 1st Class
Re: Truly Customizable Weapons - proof of concept, issues and feature requests[message #258666] Sat, 07 August 2010 17:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wil473

 
Messages:2815
Registered:September 2004
Location: Canada
ko5ma, you might want to take a look at the UC-1.13NAS Hybrid. Going over your feature list I am seeing a few things I've already implemented at least partially though not always with NAS. The existing merger system can be used to achieve a lot of the stuff that your framework would require new tags for. You just end up with multiples of the "same" gun...

Just to echo warnings already posted here, there are changes in the works that may derail all of our plans (so far I'm only seeing a lot of data entry to bring my projects up to the future standard). Also consider the cost to benefits of each feature as the effort may not be worth the results. By the way thanks for confirming there is no way for attachments to give a weapon autofire in-game (I'm shelving this idea for now in my projects).

[Updated on: Sat, 07 August 2010 17:12] by Moderator

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Lieutenant

Re: Truly Customizable Weapons - proof of concept, issues and feature requests[message #258670] Sat, 07 August 2010 17:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ko5ma

 
Messages:35
Registered:January 2010
Location: Poland
wil473
ko5ma, you might want to take a look at the UC-1.13NAS Hybrid. Going over your feature list I am seeing a few things I've already implemented at least partially though not always with NAS. The existing merger system can be used to achieve a lot of the stuff that your framework would require new tags for. You just end up with multiples of the "same" gun...

Just to echo warnings already posted here, there are changes in the works that may derail all of our plans (so far I'm only seeing a lot of data entry to bring my projects up to the future standard). Also consider the cost to benefits of each feature as the effort may not be worth the results. By the way thanks for confirming there is no way for attachments to give a weapon autofire in-game (I'm shelving this idea for now in my projects).


Thanks, i'll have a look - to be honest i haven't played UC since the original a few years ago.
As for merges, i have considered this solution (and have used in the past for my older, pre-NAS "internal" versions) - the obvious problem is, that to achieve a similar level of detail it would be necessary to use a HUGE number of Items.xml and Weapons.xml entries - lower x upper alone is 50, add various barrel lengths and it goes to 500, vs a total of ~70 Items.xml entries needed right now... Even if i dropped the least interesting ones, it'd still go into hundereds - for just one weapon system. In terms of cost to benefit ratio, i think the attachment-based solution requires a lot less effort to create and maintain (implementation of attribute changes for example). On the other hand, having proper weapon pictures is a natural advantage of the merge system, but personally i'm willing to let this one go... until a way is found to create multi-layered pics that is.

Re NCTH - yes, i'm fully aware of changes it will bring, and i don't mind having to rework the parameters - can't wait to see it live! Smile

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Private 1st Class
Re: Truly Customizable Weapons - proof of concept, issues and feature requests[message #258676] Sat, 07 August 2010 18:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Faithless is currently offline Faithless

 
Messages:439
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Quote:
* needed: new xml tag in needed in attachmentslots.xml (i.e. weapon with bolt removed - no go)
Looked at this one and I'm not comfortable putting that in the NAS beta right now.

It's not that hard to do but it's connected to a lot of things and I really don't want to break them until I'm sure that at least the rest of NAS works.

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Master Sergeant
Re: Truly Customizable Weapons - proof of concept, issues and feature requests[message #258683] Sat, 07 August 2010 19:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ko5ma

 
Messages:35
Registered:January 2010
Location: Poland
WarmSteel
Quote:
* needed: new xml tag in needed in attachmentslots.xml (i.e. weapon with bolt removed - no go)
Looked at this one and I'm not comfortable putting that in the NAS beta right now.

It's not that hard to do but it's connected to a lot of things and I really don't want to break them until I'm sure that at least the rest of NAS works.

How about making it a cursor change? As in, slot empty => cursor changed to ?.

And thanks for having a look Smile.

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Private 1st Class
Re: Truly Customizable Weapons - proof of concept, issues and feature requests[message #258710] Sat, 07 August 2010 23:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Faithless is currently offline Faithless

 
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that's probably harder

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Master Sergeant
Re: Truly Customizable Weapons - proof of concept, issues and feature requests[message #259311] Thu, 12 August 2010 21:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ko5ma

 
Messages:35
Registered:January 2010
Location: Poland
Progress report:

As mentioned a few days ago, i tested a crude way of creating merged images using attachments. As it turns out, it kind of works - not perfect by any means, and there is the obvious caveat of being able to modify "large" images only, but still i think it is a nice addition.
I also found out that a possiblity to define layers on images already exists - i think it may have been an (unexpected?) byproduct of NAS.

Unfortunately, the solution is - as said - crude, and needs some improvements. This leads me to two new feature requests Wink. These additions would greatly help in making this type of system fully usable:
- possibility to define an attachment slot as "NoBackground"
- possibility to define an attachment slot as "NotShowingItemStatus"

A few screenshots(as before - no mockups, ingame, but don't look at the stats or slot layout too much):

Basic weapon item with permanently attached lower receiver, a few sample parts (there's more, but that'd be too much alt-w ;P)
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/1677/tcw02ss01samples.th.jpg

Some sample builds:

M16A1 Commando w/ M4 RIS and C-MAG
http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/4386/tcw02ss04commando.th.jpg

M16A2 w/ M5 RIS(didnt make a solid stock yet, sorry)
http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/5524/tcw02ss07rifle.th.jpg

M4A1 SOPMOD
http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/4066/tcw02ss06carbine.th.jpg

M4A1 CQBR
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/9962/tcw02ss02cqbr.th.jpg

AR15 sharpshooter variant w/ short mag
http://img802.imageshack.us/img802/4079/tcw02ss03sniper.th.jpg

The real reason for all this, an incomplete copy of my AR15 ;P
http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/1294/tcw02ss054kosma.th.jpg


In other news:
- Modified the XML files for compatibility with NAS 0.6b. Thanks to Warmsteel, it is now possible to have more default attachments, so guns come preassembled (previously you had to assemble it yourself just after landing in Omerta ;P). Reliability is now also derived from attachments.
- Changed the way lower receivers are used in order to "cheat" the issues with etc, now as a default there are 5 separate Weapons.xml entries, each for a different, permanently attached lower receiver. Lowers do not have any stats of their own now, they are used for cosmetic reasons and attachment slot creation only. To change a lower receiver, you must also change the framework weapon (but they come together anyway).

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Private 1st Class
Re: Truly Customizable Weapons - proof of concept, issues and feature requests[message #259318] Thu, 12 August 2010 22:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Headrock

 
Messages:1760
Registered:March 2006
Location: Jerusalem
This is really cool. It's actually similar to an idea we discussed in the NGAP thread (the conceptual predecessor to NAS).

So how difficult is it to make one of these?

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Sergeant Major

Re: Truly Customizable Weapons - proof of concept, issues and feature requests[message #259323] Thu, 12 August 2010 22:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ko5ma

 
Messages:35
Registered:January 2010
Location: Poland
A few more sample weapons built using this system, this time with proprietary handguard-upper receiver sets. Unfortunately, due to picture size constraints it is not possible to create those as a single item.

HK416D145RS
http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/4638/tcw02ss08hk416d145.th.jpg

HK416D20RS
http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/452/tcw02ss09hk416d20.th.jpg

Ares Shrike
http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/4299/tcw02ss10shrike.th.jpg

ZM LR300ML (again, didn't make any other stocks yet)
http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/4622/tcw02ss11lr300.th.jpg


Headrock
This is really cool. It's actually similar to an idea we discussed in the NGAP thread (the conceptual predecessor to NAS).

So how difficult is it to make one of these?

Thanks Smile. It's actually very easy - NAS allows placing of attachment slots at x,y coordinates. Just put them underneath the bigitem pic, chop big pictures to pieces, add them to mdpxitem, align properly et voila. Layers are defined by putting attachment slots definitions in chosen order.
Of course, there are still the issues with slots and % status being displayed, but i'm afraid that's well beyond my capabilities.

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Private 1st Class
Re: Truly Customizable Weapons - proof of concept, issues and feature requests[message #259336] Fri, 13 August 2010 00:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Minty is currently offline Minty

 
Messages:110
Registered:July 2009
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That is.. Gorgeous, ko5ma.. Uber-pimpage ahoy, by the looks of it. Very Happy

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Sergeant
Re: Truly Customizable Weapons - proof of concept, issues and feature requests[message #259352] Fri, 13 August 2010 02:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Faithless is currently offline Faithless

 
Messages:439
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Location: The safe end of the barre...
I was thinking of having the option to display the item a second time (once in the slot, another time wherever the user chooses).
Would that do? I still need to look if it's a good idea in terms of being sensible code, though.

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Master Sergeant
Re: Truly Customizable Weapons - proof of concept, issues and feature requests[message #259354] Fri, 13 August 2010 07:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
usrbid is currently offline usrbid

 
Messages:1506
Registered:December 2008
Hi ko5ma, Just an example, some scopes allow mounting of other stuff on them like for example a reflex sight, a red dot laser etc. Some copes actually have rails on top of them which allow you to mount anything which can be mounted on a regular rail, like for example another scope such as an acog on an 18x scope. Not sure if you had thought of this. This is just to make you aware of it.

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Sergeant Major

Re: Truly Customizable Weapons - proof of concept, issues and feature requests[message #259360] Fri, 13 August 2010 10:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Minty is currently offline Minty

 
Messages:110
Registered:July 2009
Location: UK
WarmSteel
I was thinking of having the option to display the item a second time (once in the slot, another time wherever the user chooses).
Would that do? I still need to look if it's a good idea in terms of being sensible code, though.

That'd be fantastic, WarmSteel. Especially if the second display-sprite was drawn without background-box or statusbar.

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Sergeant
Re: Truly Customizable Weapons - proof of concept, issues and feature requests[message #259361] Fri, 13 August 2010 10:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ko5ma

 
Messages:35
Registered:January 2010
Location: Poland
WarmSteel
I was thinking of having the option to display the item a second time (once in the slot, another time wherever the user chooses).
Would that do? I still need to look if it's a good idea in terms of being sensible code, though.

This would be the optimal solution actually, assuming we can choose the x,y coordinates of the second picture anywhere on the "canvas". As it is atm, if the picture extends too far away from the original attachment slot, it causes a CTD when you attempt to move it.
EDIT: Would it have to be *the same* picture? Could we call another pic (even from the same file, for example item is 777 in mdp1items.sti, but for the canvas image we call 778)? If it was also possible to enlarge the "canvas" somehow, that'd be the ultimate solution to large pic issues, weapons built from parts could be much more detailed too. Smile

Dieter
Hi ko5ma, Just an example, some scopes allow mounting of other stuff on them like for example a reflex sight, a red dot laser etc. Some copes actually have rails on top of them which allow you to mount anything which can be mounted on a regular rail, like for example another scope such as an acog on an 18x scope. Not sure if you had thought of this. This is just to make you aware of it.

I am not planning to change the way accessories work (aside from lowering the amount of accessory slots on non-railed weapons and shuffling the slots a bit in general), the purpose of this mini-mod is adding customizable internal and external parts - so you still will be able to mount a Docter sight on an ACOG (but you won't have to if you have a front rail, the reflex can be put there too). Not sure about scope-on-a-scope solutions, for several reasons. First - i don't think that's actually sensibly possible in game, the attachment parameters would be added, you'd get a single mega-scope rahter than 2 separate ones. Second, tbh i've never seen anyone do it irl, is it even possible? I have an ACOG, with the high base you'd get no cheekweld whatsoever, this combined with the extremely short eye relief means you'd probably get a black eye on the first attempt to fire. Not sure why anyone would even bother with it anyway, i doubt the "main" scope would be a fixed-power type. And imagine the weight of this combo! Smile

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Private 1st Class
Re: Truly Customizable Weapons - proof of concept, issues and feature requests[message #259850] Thu, 19 August 2010 12:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
usrbid is currently offline usrbid

 
Messages:1506
Registered:December 2008
Someone asked this question in the IRC chat, back then I posted over a dozen pics, here are some quick examples.

Sniper scope with side mounted reflex sight
http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/gggaz1_6193.gif

This one is an airsoft sniper scope with a top mounted rail with a reflex sight. I have seen this in real with a leupold and an acog mounted on top.
http://img.redwolfairsoft.com/upload/product/img/AS-M700MD-DT2L.jpg

Sniper scope with I don't know what mounted on top
http://www.rap4.com/paintball/images/Mount/T68_Extreme_Sniper_with_High_Rise_Tri_Rail_Ring_Mount.jpg
http://www.rap4.com/paintball/images/T68/T68_UDSF_Gun.jpg

Battle scope with top mounted reflex sight
http://www.cgwgun.com/images/Products/TRTA01NSNDOC.gif
http://www.opticsbestbuy.com/store/i/is.aspx?path=/Shared/Images/NCStar/stp3942d.jpg&lr=t&bw=350&bh=350

Another combo example
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_BfntzXv0_PE/S79ykdlaaXI/AAAAAAAAAlw/_xMFHSr1r4I/s1600/DSC_6707.JPG
http://www.usrnsf.com/Rifle_History/M3%20Carbine.jpg

Giggle, but real
http://www.defensereview.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/KAC_M110_with_BulletFlight_2.jpg

This one looks like something I want to have.
http://www.centerfiresystems.com/productimages/optics/SCORIF19-B.jpg

None of these pics are mine. Found them on Google pic search.

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Sergeant Major

Re: Truly Customizable Weapons - proof of concept, issues and feature requests[message #259859] Thu, 19 August 2010 16:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ko5ma

 
Messages:35
Registered:January 2010
Location: Poland
Dieter
Someone asked this question in the IRC chat, back then I posted over a dozen pics, here are some quick examples.

Sniper scope with side mounted reflex sight
http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/gggaz1_6193.gif
[color:#FF0000]404[/color]

This one is an airsoft sniper scope with a top mounted rail with a reflex sight. I have seen this in real with a leupold and an acog mounted on top.
http://img.redwolfairsoft.com/upload/product/img/AS-M700MD-DT2L.jpg
[color:#FF0000]Leupold-lookalike with a Docter - pretty standard these days, but i do not think it could work with an ACOG - see below.[/color]

Sniper scope with I don't know what mounted on top
http://www.rap4.com/paintball/images/Mount/T68_Extreme_Sniper_with_High_Rise_Tri_Rail_Ring_Mount.jpg
[color:#FF0000]Some scope with an Aimpoint M3.[/color]

http://www.rap4.com/paintball/images/T68/T68_UDSF_Gun.jpg
[color:#FF0000]Some crappy airgun scope with an equally crappy airgun reddot (i actually used to have one of these ages ago).[/color]

Battle scope with top mounted reflex sight
http://www.cgwgun.com/images/Products/TRTA01NSNDOC.gif
[color:#FF0000]ACOG with a Docter reddot, that's the combo i use on my AR15, though i'm leaning towards a Meopta 1-4x K-Dot...[/color]
http://www.opticsbestbuy.com/store/i/is.aspx?path=/Shared/Images/NCStar/stp3942d.jpg&lr=t&bw=350&bh=350
[color:#FF0000]As above.[/color]

Another combo example
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_BfntzXv0_PE/S79ykdlaaXI/AAAAAAAAAlw/_xMFHSr1r4I/s1600/DSC_6707.JPG
[color:#FF0000]NV unit in front of an ACOG, would be possible in TCW (mounted on front rail).[/color]

http://www.usrnsf.com/Rifle_History/M3%20Carbine.jpg
[color:#FF0000]That's not a combo per se, it's an old active NV unit with a built-in illuminator - in JA2 it'd be a single item.[/color]

Giggle, but real
http://www.defensereview.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/KAC_M110_with_BulletFlight_2.jpg
[color:#FF0000]Hehe, yeah, the KAC iPhone mount... I'll pass.[/color]

This one looks like something I want to have.
http://www.centerfiresystems.com/productimages/optics/SCORIF19-B.jpg
[color:#FF0000]Errrr, ok. ;P[/color]

None of these pics are mine. Found them on Google pic search.


Some notes above, sorry for the post dissection Smile.

Re scopes on scopes - i was quite curious and actually looked around a bit, but still havent found any non-airsoft pics of multiple-scope combos. Personally, i don't think we should use airsoft as a base for what's possible in game. Don't get me wrong - i like it, but the truth is, in airsoft you can get away with a lot of silly stuff that wouldn't work in reality. A few points in regard to your first picture and scope-on-scope combos in general:
- first, you probably could *install* an acog on that rail, you just couldn't *use* it. I don't know if you've ever used an ACOG, but as i've written before, they have very short eye relief distance - your eye needs to be ca. 3-4cm from the lens to see the full sight picture. The rear lens is located about 5cm from rearmost rail point. If you installed it this way, you'd end up having to place your eye *in front* (and above) of the main scope's rear lens. Unless your eye is detachable, that'd be hard to do. Even if you just touch the main scope to be as close to the ACOG, you'd be hit in the teeth when firing. Not optimal.
- second, height over bore issues - even if you could get the proper sight picture, the scope, when installed so high over barrel's axis, will give you a rather large difference between point of aim and point of impact. If you zero it at, say, 100m, the shift at 200m will be MUCH higher than if it was installed on rail.
- third, height over stock and cheekweld issues - this is already a problem even with small reddots, hence why angled or offset mounts like this have been designed. You can't really aim a long weapon properly without having a proper cheekweld. The higher the secondary optic is, the more difficult it gets. In case of an ACOG on top of a sniper scope, your head would be hanging in midair.
- fourth, what's the point? If you think you need a 4x scope on top of your 10x, why not get a 3-9x or 4-12x instead, get all you need and save weight at the same time?
- fifth and final, it won't work in JA2 anyway due to reasons explained in my previous post Smile.

Re small reddots on scopes - they are pretty popular these days, you'll even notice that some branches of US military have adopted an ACOG (TA31) + Docter combo not long ago as their RCO. There are major differences between them and scopes though:
- no eye relief - you can mount a reddot as far in the front as you like and it'll work the same
- compact size (Docter, Aimpoint T1) -> lower height over bore and better cheekweld, even though it's less important in close quarters; low weight makes them ideally suited as emergency sights (cause that's what they are)
- works in JA2 ;P

EDIT
To clarify a bit, here's how i would like to see the "western" sight accessories, if i decided to modify the way they work (actually, i've made some of them a while ago, for "internal" use):

Small reddots: Docter, Aimpoint T1 etc.
Large reddots: Aimpoint 3000, Aimpoint M3/M4, EOTech 5xx, Trijicon Reflex etc.
Scopes: well, all scopes ;P
Magnifiers: Aimpoint 3x, EOTech 4x
In-line NV: AN/PVS-22 etc.
Large NV: AN/PVS-4 etc.

Possible attachment points:
Top rail: anything except for magnifiers and in-line NV
Front top rail: in-line NV, large and small reddots
Scopes create an additional slot for small reddots only
Large reddots create an additional slot for magnifiers only

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Private 1st Class
Re: Truly Customizable Weapons - proof of concept, issues and feature requests[message #260726] Fri, 27 August 2010 09:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
usrbid is currently offline usrbid

 
Messages:1506
Registered:December 2008
Burris XTR-14 1-4x24 rifle scope with an Eotech 512 on this forum, it just takes some time to find these.

Probably the reason why these combos are a little harder to find is military thinking, a sniper will rarely need a reflex sight. However when you go into other applications e.g. hunting, some of these combos might make more sense.

Of course I know that these combos cannot be done with the current v1.13. There are several mods e.g. Smeagol's AIM that do some (if not most) of what you are talking about. Ideally 1.13 should be expanded to allow these combos.

By the way the very fist pic I posted:

Sniper scope with side mounted reflex sight
http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/gggaz1_6193.gif

works for me. I tried a dozen times, comes up every time. Too bad you get a 404, maybe play around with the URL or look on Google to get the page with the pic?


Uh, here is another one:
http://www.pbase.com/illusive_airsoft/image/84255260/original.jpg

Uh, more cool stuff:
http://www.laruetactical.com/pics/AimpointMicroT-1withLT-724AngledQDmountCombo500-00/myalbum/p9100858.jpg

[Updated on: Fri, 27 August 2010 10:02] by Moderator

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Sergeant Major

Re: Truly Customizable Weapons - proof of concept, issues and feature requests[message #260813] Sat, 28 August 2010 02:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ko5ma

 
Messages:35
Registered:January 2010
Location: Poland
Again, that's reddots/reflex sights on scopes - that's normal, pretty popular these days among both military and civvies. It has its uses and i'm not disputing that (though an EOTech would certainly not be my primary choice. I'd really like that canted T1 LaRue mount, but Jesus Christ it's expensive...). What i am disputing is only the use of scopes on scopes (as in: magnifying optics on top of other magnifying optics), since you mentioned you'd like to see it done and i don't think it's a good idea for reasons stated above.

In any case, that's beyond the scope (;P) of my small project in its current form, maybe something for the future. In the meantime, i'm working on a customizable Glock - unfortunately, the inability to change calibers via attachments is a big limiting factor here, so 9mm only for now. But still - threaded barrel w/ suppressor + slide lock + subsonic ammo = wholesome night-ops fun.

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Private 1st Class
Re: Truly Customizable Weapons - proof of concept, issues and feature requests[message #260834] Sat, 28 August 2010 07:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
usrbid is currently offline usrbid

 
Messages:1506
Registered:December 2008
Uh, there is a solution to change the glock caliber by changing barrels, use the SCAR merge trick, instead of a conversion kit, just use a barell as the merge item, should work just fine.

I saw an AR at the Shot Show 2010, I forget who the manufacturer was, maybe Stag Arms? Anyway, the lower receiver had two parts, the mag well was separate from the frame which houses the trigger group, both were combined by sliding them into one another, this made the AR able to change calibers from 5.56 to 45 ACP, to 9 Luger, and even 22 LR, pretty neat stuff! of course the AR barrel was swamp-able as well, and you needed to buy the barrels for the other calibers. Maybe some more ideas for you?

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Sergeant Major

Re: Truly Customizable Weapons - proof of concept, issues and feature requests[message #260863] Sat, 28 August 2010 11:29 Go to previous message
ko5ma

 
Messages:35
Registered:January 2010
Location: Poland
I know it can be done with item merges, i've done it before, it's just that i would prefer to do it via attachments only. There are other great mods that use merges, but full customization is something new and interesting, at least in my opinion. And as said a few posts before, to keep the same level of detail, i'd need a lot of weapon.xml entries - as of right now, i've got 10 Glock frame types, 11 slides, 12 barrels, for a total of 132 allowable basic combinations - before adding controls, recoil springs, spring rods, triggers, magazines...

As for a modular lower receiver - neat idea. I dont think it's actually needed for pistol calibers, as usually semi-permanent magwell inserts are used, but it could be very nice for 7.62x39 for example. Unfortunately, it'd still require attachment-based caliber change. Maybe someday.

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