Home » MODDING HQ 1.13 » v1.13 Idea Incubation Lab » New CTH system - Presentation
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #259100]
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Wed, 11 August 2010 06:12
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Mauser |
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Messages:756
Registered:August 2006 Location: Bavaria - Germany |
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Brilliant dude!
that indeed looks quite awesome, like the "Ultimate Description Box"!
does your redesign mean we
[Updated on: Wed, 11 August 2010 06:15] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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First Sergeant
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Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #259106]
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Wed, 11 August 2010 07:16
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Behrooz |
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Messages:8
Registered:March 2004 |
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Love what you've done so far, Headrock!
A few quick comments:
- Some boundary conditions such as the duckbill attachment or 'match' grade ammunition could be dealt with via optional XML tags providing direct x/y axis scalars to bullet deviation.
;;Buckshot w/Duckbill
;;Results in a slightly broader but vertically flattened oval for buckshot pellets fired.
buckshotdeviation (x/y): 1.25 , 0.25
;;'Match'-grade ammunition:
;;Reduces the bullet deviation consistently across both axes when using this specialty ammo.
bulletdeviation (x/y): 0.80 , 0.80
- IMO, the current penalties for using a scope at less than the ideal distance are too punitive, at least twice what I'd say is reasonable: There's a substantial overlap between the effective ranges of iron sights and 2x or even 4x scopes. A 2x scope is entirely reasonable at 40m, while against a man-sized target rifle iron sights can easily be used out past 100m+ (pistols... not so much).
- In that same general 'feeling', using 7 tiles as the 'normal' shooting range feels too short for me, at least when using long guns. Defining 'normal' on an individual weapon-by-weapon basis in the XMLs isn't really feasible, so I can think of two quick options:
A. Use 'range' to calculate the 'normal range'-- something like 10 * log(range of each gun) would put all of the guns between 10ish for the pistols to 20 for the big anti-material rifles.
B. Define the 'normal' shooting distance based on weapon class: pistol/MP/SMG/AR/rifle/MG/sniper. Something in the neighborhood of 7 / 9 / 10 / 12 / 16 / 12?
- I think the quickest way to get a general adjusted 'accuracy' for all of the guns in the XML is making a general 'reference' deviation for each caliber. Once that's hashed out, the only things I can think of that should affect bullet deviation are modifiers based on barrel length and a more subjective modifier for precision barrel manufacturing / quality materials.
- Alex's Russian weapon would be a great resource for judging the effect of barrel length, comparing the relative accuracy of AK-variants of different barrel lengths firing the same round. This could be somewhat generalized for other calibers.
Thanks again for putting all of this effort into making JA2 even better! Keep up the good work!
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Private
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Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #259175]
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Wed, 11 August 2010 16:39
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CptMoore |
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Messages:224
Registered:March 2009 |
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Since a weapon actually consists of different modules, the general tabs should have some sort of selection. Like you should be able to select which of the attachements you want to calculate bonus' for.. or in which mode.
Currently grenade launcher mode and shooting mode are the only two differentiated.
I of course would like to see more splitting of modes
* snapshot without scope (laser attachement bonus)
* fastshot with scope (laser doesn't apply?, only scope with least AP)
* scopeshot (scope which has best optimal range)
Oh the last point gives me another (additional) idea, what about having subtabs about ranges? Since each range is different, make the general tabs include a range selection and then you could display actual hit probability for each target size (prone, crouch, stand)?
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Sergeant 1st Class
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Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #259179]
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Wed, 11 August 2010 17:07
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Minty |
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Messages:110
Registered:July 2009 Location: UK |
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HeadrockMintyOne very minor quibble though.. The selected tab is the lo-lighted one, right? However, in most tabbed applications these days, the selected tab is highlighted, with the non-selected tabs being shaded/greyed out. Might want to swap the graphics to see how it looks? There's one issue with that which would be impossible to overcome - the game's internal button system. I could swap the graphics, but the text on the button still moves slightly down and to the right when a button is pressed, to simulate it going "inwards". I would have to reverse the effect to achieve what you're talking about without making it look weird, and I don't think that's possible.
Ahh, no worries then. I didn't realise it was a hardcoded engine limitation. It's no massive thing, just a personal foible, definitely not a show-stopper.
[Updated on: Wed, 11 August 2010 17:09] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Sergeant
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Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #259607]
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Mon, 16 August 2010 16:03
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Headrock |
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Messages:1760
Registered:March 2006 Location: Jerusalem |
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Just to keep this thread from falling back too far in the list ( ), here's some in-game screenshots from UDB.
Guns usually have lots of data to display, making this the most interesting of all the UDB pages of course. You'll note that the last page displays info for the gun including all bonuses from the scope and laser. The -30% AP-to-Draw reduction of course comes from the gun itself.
The arrows on the right side are used whenever the list is too long to be displayed all at once. With NAS, it's quite possible that some guns will have very long lists.
By the way, in the picture you can see that all three values in the advanced tab columns are the same. However, once NCTH is completed, some items (like bipods, possibly folding stocks and so forth) will give different bonuses when standing, crouched, or prone. That's part of the point of this third page, and is really why UDB was created in the first place.
Finally, as an added bonus, I've added a very small feature that is nonetheless a great improvement:
When looking at a gun or any item with attachments, then right-clicking one of the attachments, we get the Description Box for that attachment. This isn't new, that's how JA2 always worked. But with UDB, if we now CLOSE the attachment's description, we return to the description box of whatever item we started with.
This is unlike the original description box, where, if we wanted to examine the various attachments on a gun for instance, we'd have to open the gun, open attachment #1, close the box, open the gun again, open attachment #2, and so forth. The new system saves just one click, but it makes a big difference. That'll be especially true with NAS.
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I'm now going to continue work on UDB, to port it to the tactical screen. This should not be too much of a challenge, since I've designed UDB to fit comfortably in both screens with very minor adjustments. The only thing that actually changes shape/size are the tab buttons (DESCRIPTION/GENERAL/ADVANCED).
The real challenge of course would be to make the old description box function properly when UDB is disabled. That could take a week to get right, though I hope it will not take that long.
As a side note, I probably mentioned this before but here it is again: UDB completely replaces EDB. Like EDB, it will not be available in 640x480 screen modes. However, unlike EDB, it will also not be available in the Tactical Screen when using the Old Inventory system. That's due to the inventory panel being much shorter, thus allowing less vertical space which is obviously required by UDB... In the tactical screen for the old inventory, the old description box will always be shown instead of UDB.
My apologies to OIV players who've gotten used to having EDB in the tactical screen - it can't really be helped right now.
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Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #259669]
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Tue, 17 August 2010 05:03
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Headrock |
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Messages:1760
Registered:March 2006 Location: Jerusalem |
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PROGRESS UPDATE
Work on UDB has just been completed, and it is functional as intended.
This means that NCTH is one step closer to completion.
The remaining steps are:
- Reformatting the XMLs
- Possibly the biggest task ahead, which requires adding at least three tags to every weapons in the game, and up to a dozen or more tags to each weapon attachment.
- Tweaking the AI
- The AI must be taught how to use the new CTH system, to avoid them firing a pistol at 50 tiles of range despite high CTH values. This sounds complicated, but really isn't - it's just a matter of finding the correct places to "intervene" and change them to measure CTH correctly.
- Adjust OCTH-related mechanics
- Things like damage output, penetration of objects, and experience gain are all dependent on a bullet's CTH value. However, the new system doesn't work the same way, so the value has to be treated differently by all those subsidiary systems as well. This is more of a thinking job: how to get those things working the same way as they did before but with a new value to work with?
- Launchers and Throwing Knives
- Both these weapon types used the OCTH system. With NCTH, I need to come up with a way to correctly calculate a Muzzle Sway value for them, and treat them accordingly once fired. This is a little more tricky than it sounds...
- Sniper skill and other skill-related crap
- The Sniper skill currently has no benefit in NCTH, simply because I haven't decided what to do with it yet. In addition, I need to work in the robot-skills (so that the robot's controller is the one whose skills are important for the robot's CTH...).
- Tank, Robot, Crepitus
- These "irregular" combatants should have their own modifiers for NCTH. So far I've received a few useful ideas about how to handle them, but not enough. I'll try to use what I've got (thanks to DepressiveBrot and others who've given ideas on this).
Bottom line: discussion.
Most importantly right now, things like the Sniper Skill and Special Combatants would be excellent. Of course, it would help if you could explain your ideas using the NCTH system as a guide.
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Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #259670]
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Tue, 17 August 2010 05:15
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CptMoore |
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Messages:224
Registered:March 2009 |
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Sniper skill: Zoom penalty and bonus' are better managed by a sniper. Sniper should have no problem aiming at moving targets. Sniper can aim at head/other bodyparts better than others.
I would distinguish between aiming at the body and a specific part.. if you try to aim at a specific part, as a non-sniper you actually loose accuracy.
Another idea is making drop-compensation accuracy dependant on the skill.. snipers have perfect drop compensation for rifles. Explosive guys are perfect with drop compensation with grenades (+GL). Throwing knife guys can compensate the throwing knife stuff.
This drop compensation eliminates the muzzle sway problem of the "gun" for throwing knifes.. since then only the shooters muzzle sway should count?
[Updated on: Tue, 17 August 2010 18:27] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Sergeant 1st Class
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Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #259712]
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Tue, 17 August 2010 18:38
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Headrock |
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Messages:1760
Registered:March 2006 Location: Jerusalem |
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Quote:but what you acctualy want is that your advanced tab is to show how the parameters of the gun are modified by everything - attachements, stance and (it should be) the user abilities to use that gun.
Actually no, it (that is, the game) doesn't work like that at all.
Firstly, it is impossible to take a shooter's skills into account when showing the box - because a description box can be shown for items in the sector pool, or items in a shopkeeper's inventory, and in both cases there's no one holding the gun. So for the few attributes that do depend on shooter stats (namely, AP costs), a static average value is used.
Secondly, no, the advanced tab does NOT show how the parameters of the gun are adjusted. In fact, that's what the General tab is for. And that shows the base value (without attachments), the attachment/ammo modifier, and the final value.
The Advanced Tab is used to show modifiers coming from ammo, attachments, and inherent abilities of the gun, including modifiers that are not related to the gun's performance. For instance, increased vision range. Most of them do not act on any property of the gun - they usually act on the shooter himself, and as such cannot be displayed the same way that General Stats are. Therefore, the advanced tab is used mostly for items that do not have their own general properties, like attachments.
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