Home » MODDING HQ 1.13 » v1.13 Idea Incubation Lab  » Logical Bodytypes
Re: Logical Bodytypes[message #258738] Sun, 08 August 2010 11:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lockie is currently offline lockie

 
Messages:3721
Registered:February 2006
Location: Scotland
Works fine for me Bio .

Report message to a moderator

Captain

Re: Logical Bodytypes[message #258750] Sun, 08 August 2010 13:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CptMoore

 
Messages:224
Registered:March 2009
Hey Bio, I'm the guy how made some changes to the cover display (END-toggle) and I just wanted to ask why the heck the performance is so bad when several transparent tiles are added to the scene? Is transparency (half transparency where you can still see the background) just slow or should it have same performance as normal objects?

My implementation and algorithms are not optimized, but when the main problem is this transparency stuff then an optimization somewhere else wouldn't change anything.

Report message to a moderator

Sergeant 1st Class
Re: Logical Bodytypes[message #258791] Sun, 08 August 2010 20:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bio

 
Messages:62
Registered:April 2009
Location: Rhineland-Palatinate/Germ...
Hi CptMoore,

hmm not sure, would have to see what functions you are using (which blitter function is invoked and what is done beforehand). The blitting of partially transparent tiles should be very efficient. I can't imagine a noticable performance degredation if blitting a lot of these. For instance at times I was blitting all 15 defined layers for all bodytypes (so for the stock bodytypes 15 x the same animationsurface per render cycle). I probably had around 4, 5 mercs on screen. Thats about 60 additional tiles blitted (the bliter invoked supported transparency and shadows afaik). I did not register any performance degredation (CPU utilization was not notably higher either). 60 is a about 8 x 8 squares. I don't know how many tiles you are blitting, judging by the screenies you posted maybe about 16 x 16, so maybe about four times as many? I don't think that should be a problem.

Report message to a moderator

Corporal
Re: Logical Bodytypes[message #258800] Sun, 08 August 2010 22:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CptMoore

 
Messages:224
Registered:March 2009
Ok, thx thats what I needed to know. My guess it must be the LOS function itself, but I'm afraid of touching it (its a curley bracket monster used by almost every other function in the code).

Report message to a moderator

Sergeant 1st Class
Re: Logical Bodytypes[message #258849] Mon, 09 August 2010 01:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bio

 
Messages:62
Registered:April 2009
Location: Rhineland-Palatinate/Germ...
One last update before I'm off for the week (or I'm probably gonna import my sources and release a build tomorrow or the day after).

Thankfully I realized on time, that mixed palettes were completely unnecessary. I simply changed the head into a seperate layer (it was already defined anyways). So in my demo setup, the dress uniform has it's fixed palette (no body parts shown), while the head has the dynamic palette and thus the skin and hair color of the merc wearing it. Looks great.
For this to work for other body skins as well, it will obviously require to put the hands into an extra layer as well, but that's not really a problem.

Report message to a moderator

Corporal
Re: Logical Bodytypes[message #259237] Thu, 12 August 2010 01:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sandro is currently offline Sandro

 
Messages:420
Registered:November 2008
Location: Mars
The videoclip looks amazing, Bio. Looking forward to see this in full power.

Report message to a moderator

Master Sergeant

Re: Logical Bodytypes[message #260359] Mon, 23 August 2010 13:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ormus n2o is currently offline Ormus n2o

 
Messages:28
Registered:March 2010
Location: Poland; Wielkopolska; Pi&...
So what is going in this thread? Any progres?

Report message to a moderator

Private 1st Class
Re: Logical Bodytypes[message #260363] Mon, 23 August 2010 13:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
abbadon101 is currently offline abbadon101

 
Messages:6
Registered:June 2008
I almost jizzed when you changed his clothing in the video. Well done.

Report message to a moderator

Private
Re: Logical Bodytypes[message #260376] Mon, 23 August 2010 19:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mauser is currently offline Mauser

 
Messages:756
Registered:August 2006
Location: Bavaria - Germany
that demo video looks quite impressive Bio!

looks like what you do is working quite well and offers a lot of new options and visual treats.

let

Report message to a moderator

First Sergeant
Re: Logical Bodytypes[message #260404] Mon, 23 August 2010 23:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bio

 
Messages:62
Registered:April 2009
Location: Rhineland-Palatinate/Germ...
Progress is being made, albeit not quite as fast as I would like (my careless notion about making the hands into seperate layers being a piece of cake, well it was not quite so). I wasted a good junk of the last weekend on that problem alone. Sorry for not releasing anything yet. The main reason (the actual main reason begins with la and ends on zy) I decided against releasing, was that I felt some documentation was needed. It has reached a grade of complexity were it wouldn't make much sense to hand it out without at least some basic readmes/howtos. Also I wanted to produce some more material to enable others to properly test it (especially features like dynamic hands, that probably no one beside myself cares about right now Razz).
In the meantime, I worked on both the 3dsmax rendering script and the post processing framework.
Stuff that I needed for a new concept I coined overlays. So the hands for instance are not a layer but are an overlay over another prop. In the case of hands that would be the body. Other examples are LBE stuff, holsters. Or for instance goggles on the head prop (though those probably would be barely noticable. Overlays are like skins in that they don't have own geometry. The difference being, that there is only one skin rendered per prop (for instance the default body xor the dress uniform, or the ak47 with wooden buttstock/handguard xor without) but there can be multiple overlays that are rendered in the same layer over the skin. Mind you overlay is a concept that exists only for the render scripts and the post processing. The logical body types or LBT implemenetation does not need to know about it.
Also began giving the post processing framework a major overhaul (as indicated as being necessary earlier), to accomodate for all the new stuff I added recently. It's probably still a weekend of work, but after that the infrastructure for both the batch rendering process for 3dsmax (blender is also on the roadmap) and the post processing will be finished and will satisfy the needs of the logical bodytypes implementation.

Report message to a moderator

Corporal
Re: Logical Bodytypes[message #260459] Tue, 24 August 2010 14:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Beka is currently offline Beka

 
Messages:86
Registered:November 2009
Location: Vault 13
This looks IMPRESSIVE.
Just thinking that this feature miracle could one day actually be available and playable for everyone makes me feel really, really happy.

Report message to a moderator

Corporal 1st Class
Re: Logical Bodytypes[message #260466] Tue, 24 August 2010 16:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
MikeThePro is currently offline MikeThePro

 
Messages:175
Registered:November 2007
Location: Bulgaria

Interesting. This way mercs will finally look like mercs.
Indeed a hard-work project though, but one worth the efforts.
Congrats, the whole thing is truly as people say "awesome".

Report message to a moderator

Staff Sergeant
Re: Logical Bodytypes[message #260545] Wed, 25 August 2010 03:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
abbadon101 is currently offline abbadon101

 
Messages:6
Registered:June 2008
I am very pleased to see you are making progress with this, even if you feel it isn't going fast enough.

I do love JA2 but after playing through it about 4 times completely now I have not played it in a little while, but this would certainly make me pick it up again, as one of my biggest gripes with it is the lack of detail for the graphic (yes I know its old).

I must say what you have done so far it incredibly good, and I eagerly await its release.

Report message to a moderator

Private
Re: Logical Bodytypes[message #260550] Wed, 25 August 2010 07:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mauser is currently offline Mauser

 
Messages:756
Registered:August 2006
Location: Bavaria - Germany
Quote:
Progress is being made, albeit not quite as fast as I would like


better make some solid and slow progress than fast progress that shows problems later. kust take your time and make it right. we have waited for a feature like this for so many years, we

Report message to a moderator

First Sergeant
Re: Logical Bodytypes[message #260836] Sat, 28 August 2010 07:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
SharkD is currently offline SharkD

 
Messages:352
Registered:July 2003
You might want to try POV-Ray as well. If you're a programmer as you say you might like it since you interact with it through a scripting language.

It's free, and the documentation is excellent. If you need any help PM me.

Report message to a moderator

Master Sergeant
Re: Logical Bodytypes[message #261865] Tue, 07 September 2010 11:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RustKnight is currently offline RustKnight

 
Messages:20
Registered:May 2008
Location: Romania

Two questions actually:

Are these graphical detail features going to be implemented to enemies as well ?

And why is this posted in the general discussion ? - i thought it should have been placed into development section..?

Report message to a moderator

Private 1st Class
Re: Logical Bodytypes[message #261920] Tue, 07 September 2010 22:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jmaze is currently offline jmaze
Messages:2
Registered:September 2009
AndrewB
Two questions actually:

Are these graphical detail features going to be implemented to enemies as well ?


I too am curious about this feature

Report message to a moderator

Civilian
Re: Logical Bodytypes[message #261936] Wed, 08 September 2010 01:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bio

 
Messages:62
Registered:April 2009
Location: Rhineland-Palatinate/Germ...
SharkD
You might want to try POV-Ray as well. If you're a programmer as you say you might like it since you interact with it through a scripting language.

It's free, and the documentation is excellent. If you need any help PM me.


How would you go about rigging and animating characters with POV-Ray? Though some googling brought me to this http://news.povray.org/povray.animations/thread/%3Cweb.4bdf545b88bb62bc926a7e230@news.povray.org%3E/ which looks kinda interesting. Btw. love your sprite work

Report message to a moderator

Corporal
Re: Logical Bodytypes[message #261946] Wed, 08 September 2010 01:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bio

 
Messages:62
Registered:April 2009
Location: Rhineland-Palatinate/Germ...
AndrewB
Two questions actually:

Are these graphical detail features going to be implemented to enemies as well ?

And why is this posted in the general discussion ? - i thought it should have been placed into development section..?



Of course. All objects represented by a SOLDIERTYPE instance, so naturally enemies too.

Good question. I thought about asking a mod to move this thread over there and also un-stickying (is that a word?) the old thread.

Another good question would be though, whether it is still worth all the effort, if next year JA reloaded will be released? I hate the idea of spending so much time (and all the animating work still required will require a sh!itload of additional time) only to see all modding effort switching over to the new game as a modding baseline. I wish I had adopted this project a couple of years ago...

Btw. last weekend I worked on implementing alpha mapping. I decided to do that because I didn't like the way the LBE overlays I had done looked (with pixel resizing they basically look like half a dozen out-of-place black pixels). I already implemented the batchrender and post processing part. This will require me to make some alterations to the data model and will also require a new set of blitters or extend the existing ones (should be easy enough though). However I will probably not use the alpha mapping feature for anything but certain overlays (LBE, goggles ans stuff like that) for now. I did some tests and imo bodies and weapons simply look better with sharper contours (and I have to admit that I'm rather fond of pixel art Razz). However the feature will be fully functional for all layers/animation one wants to create and if using the 3dsmax batchrender framework creating animations with alpha maps from would be as easy as switching the alpha rendering mode on and re-render all animations.

Report message to a moderator

Corporal
Re: Logical Bodytypes[message #261956] Wed, 08 September 2010 06:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jmaze is currently offline jmaze
Messages:2
Registered:September 2009
[quote=Bio]AndrewB


Another good question would be though, whether it is still worth all the effort, if next year JA reloaded will be released? I hate the idea of spending so much time (and all the animating work still required will require a sh!itload of additional time) only to see all modding effort switching over to the new game as a modding baseline. I wish I had adopted this project a couple of years ago...


I would say the effort is well deserved Bio.Please dont abandon this project

Report message to a moderator

Civilian
Re: Logical Bodytypes[message #261962] Wed, 08 September 2010 11:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
MikeThePro is currently offline MikeThePro

 
Messages:175
Registered:November 2007
Location: Bulgaria

Agree. Even with all new games coming out people won't leave JA2.
Heck, I still play the first part and Deadly Games even though I got the second one with all these flashy mods and stuff.

If Reloaded is good, it may draw the attention for a while, but still won't leave previous JA games in the shadows.

Report message to a moderator

Staff Sergeant
Re: Logical Bodytypes[message #261963] Wed, 08 September 2010 11:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mtb20 is currently offline mtb20

 
Messages:14
Registered:September 2010
I think it all depends how "epic" it will be. Lookin at other franchises(Xcom,Fallout...) we can clearly discern that there are many levels of "epic"...and the trend is now in favour of low attention spans and eye candy.

Report message to a moderator

Private
Re: Logical Bodytypes[message #261964] Wed, 08 September 2010 12:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gorro der Grüne is currently offline Gorro der Grüne

 
Messages:1448
Registered:March 2009
Location: Broadwurschd-City
There were a lot JA's coming out next year.

How much have we seen?

Carry on, please :et5:

[Updated on: Wed, 08 September 2010 12:03] by Moderator

Report message to a moderator

Sergeant Major
Re: Logical Bodytypes[message #261965] Wed, 08 September 2010 12:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
tais

 
Messages:656
Registered:February 2008
Location: NL
yup, we'll believe the stories of modern JA's when we play them, anything before that is nonsense
and we'll probably come back to 1.13 when we're finished playing the new ones, why?
because we can make 1.13 whatever we want it to be.. and that is a proven fact Razz

Report message to a moderator

First Sergeant

Re: Logical Bodytypes[message #261966] Wed, 08 September 2010 13:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mauser is currently offline Mauser

 
Messages:756
Registered:August 2006
Location: Bavaria - Germany
Bio
Another good question would be though, whether it is still worth all the effort, if next year JA reloaded will be released? I hate the idea of spending so much time (and all the animating work still required will require a sh!itload of additional time) only to see all modding effort switching over to the new game as a modding baseline.


well, is anything we do here really worth the effort? but we do it anyways, just because we want to, because we CAN.
what sense does it really make to put in all this effort into such an old game with such an old engine, when every year now a newer JA game with a much better engine COULD become available?

It may be a shitload of work to make your logical bodytypes feature work, but if you do it smart, then you maybe won

Report message to a moderator

First Sergeant
Re: Logical Bodytypes[message #261968] Wed, 08 September 2010 13:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CptMoore

 
Messages:224
Registered:March 2009
JA reloaded will not come out with its source code right? So it will not be able to compete with JA 1.13.

Report message to a moderator

Sergeant 1st Class
Re: Logical Bodytypes[message #261973] Wed, 08 September 2010 16:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Logisteric

 
Messages:3199
Registered:December 2008
Location: B
Mauser
well, is anything we do here really worth the effort? but we do it anyways, just because we want to, because we CAN.


yes, we can!

Report message to a moderator

Captain
Re: Logical Bodytypes[message #262001] Wed, 08 September 2010 23:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RustKnight is currently offline RustKnight

 
Messages:20
Registered:May 2008
Location: Romania

Heresy!

There-is-no-such-thing as a 3-D jagged alliance, i simply spit at the sight of such.

The epoch of 2-d isonometric game has been sadly concluded. I preffer to stay locked in the past and refuse this waste disposal manifesting itself in modern rigid mind blocked games.

Report message to a moderator

Private 1st Class
Re: Logical Bodytypes[message #262100] Fri, 10 September 2010 13:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lepidosteus is currently offline Lepidosteus

 
Messages:95
Registered:November 2007
Location: Land of Buns.
JA2r/JA3 won't be better than 1.13, especially with the work that you've done so far.

Keep it up!

Report message to a moderator

Corporal 1st Class
Re: Logical Bodytypes[message #262357] Sun, 12 September 2010 21:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sorca_2 is currently offline sorca_2

 
Messages:202
Registered:September 2010
Location: California, USA
Yeah Bio, everyone agrees we've got to make this happen! Let me know if you need help with any basic Photoshop stuff. I bought it with a crazy student discount and I need to keep my skills up.

Report message to a moderator

Sergeant 1st Class
Re: Logical Bodytypes[message #263434] Fri, 24 September 2010 03:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
abbadon101 is currently offline abbadon101

 
Messages:6
Registered:June 2008
Any news on this at all, I know it is probably slow going but it would be good to here it is still being taken forward, I would hate to see this project fail as it would breathe a new lease of life into JA2.

Report message to a moderator

Private
Re: Logical Bodytypes[message #263443] Fri, 24 September 2010 07:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sorca_2 is currently offline sorca_2

 
Messages:202
Registered:September 2010
Location: California, USA
I couldn't agree more and... actually yes there is! I was going to wait another day or two to post an update here when I had a little more detail, but here's what I know for sure. Hopefully Bio doesn't mind my speaking on his behalf:

Bio is pretty busy right now, but he's still working on it. He accepted my offer for help (!!!) with the massive amount of Photoshop gruntwork that needs to be done. I hope this will cut down on the time to completion and reduce the psychological stress of tackling a giant project alone. I communicated with him a couple of times this week, and he's working on giving me my first official assignment very soon. I don't want to say much more without knowing more details myself.

Meanwhile I've been messing around with adapting JA1/DG merc faces for JA2 just to get back in the Photoshop saddle because I've probably got more will than skill right now. I also began work on the new user guide, but I had already decided that help on the logical bodytypes is the most important contribution I could make, so I'm 100% committed with any way I can help on this. The guide might take a little longer than I thought, but even if I only finish the first 2 sections, it'll be more than we have right now.

Anyway, I hope that's what you wanted to hear. Very Happy

Report message to a moderator

Sergeant 1st Class
Re: Logical Bodytypes[message #263843] Tue, 28 September 2010 21:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bio

 
Messages:62
Registered:April 2009
Location: Rhineland-Palatinate/Germ...
No, I don't mind at all. However we should clarify that the amount of photoshop work that will be needed in the coming weeks is a result of the decision to go a secondary path in the generation of animation content.

The idea is, to create prop layers for the stock models too (which will have to be done manually).
This is actually what someone in this thread inquired about and I denied him, because at the time I thought it would be impracticle. But I had a change of heart. After Sorca inquired about stuff he could help out with and mentioned photoshopping specifically, I thought that maybe it would be a good idea to revisit that idea of adding layers for the stock models. So I tried to apply one of my already rendered props (a hat) to one of the stock models
and it worked quite well indeed (due to the fact that the stock models and the one I did have roughly the same geometry/height/pivot point). Still to get a good result, every single frame should be corrected seperately.
So although this is a lot of manual work, I think it is worth the effort.
Not only will it probably be finished sooner than the creation of all animations for the render scenes (for both Blender and 3dsmax) due to the fact that it is easier to find people with photoshop skills than with animating skills. But also a few people voiced their concern of JA2 losing it's "flair" with completely new, albeit more realistic models. So for these people you get layers ontop of the stock animations, preserving the JA2 style and adding more ways of differentiating the different characters.
I think I mentioned this before in a different thread. Hats, facial gear, maybe hair/facial hair and backpacks and stuff, should be quite achievable. It's gonna be harder for clothing and especially weapons though. We will start with a couple of simple props and see how it goes. Also this will enable others to play around with the logical bodytypes implementation in a sensible fashion.

And maybe Sorca will also help me with the documentation a bit? Wink

[Updated on: Tue, 28 September 2010 21:23] by Moderator

Report message to a moderator

Corporal
Re: Logical Bodytypes[message #263847] Tue, 28 September 2010 21:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Khor1255 is currently offline Khor1255

 
Messages:1817
Registered:August 2003
Location: Pleasantville, NJ
That's great news. Layers upon the existing animations is far easier - in my opinion - and therefore far more likely to actually be accomplished. Apart from that, it retains the classic Ja2 look and I'm quite happy enough with that.

Report message to a moderator

Sergeant Major
Re: Logical Bodytypes[message #263856] Tue, 28 September 2010 22:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mauser is currently offline Mauser

 
Messages:756
Registered:August 2006
Location: Bavaria - Germany
Well Bio, that are great news indeed. i wish you and all that help you out good luck with it.

if you really can pull off the complex layered sprites and do it in a way that new models, animations and props can be added with relative ease by others, this should be the probably greatest graphical improvement of JA2 since it

Report message to a moderator

First Sergeant
Re: Logical Bodytypes[message #263863] Tue, 28 September 2010 23:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sorca_2 is currently offline sorca_2

 
Messages:202
Registered:September 2010
Location: California, USA
@Bio: Of course I can help with documentation! Very Happy

Report message to a moderator

Sergeant 1st Class
Re: Logical Bodytypes[message #264216] Mon, 04 October 2010 12:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
abbadon101 is currently offline abbadon101

 
Messages:6
Registered:June 2008
Bio and helper minions (joke Smile ) do you have any examples of the work so far that would be great. I know it would help to keep us even more interested than we are at the moment.

[Updated on: Mon, 04 October 2010 12:57] by Moderator

Report message to a moderator

Private
Re: Logical Bodytypes[message #264325] Tue, 05 October 2010 21:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sorca_2 is currently offline sorca_2

 
Messages:202
Registered:September 2010
Location: California, USA
Sorry, I don't have much to show you yet. It's pretty boring to look at so far, like asking to look at the Pyramids while they're still just a pile of big lumpy rocks. Don't worry though, we're picking away at it. Right now I'm just trying to get a handle on scope and coming up with the most efficient methods. Give it another week or two and I bet we'll have something more solid. It's early, but I'm feeling pretty good mojo for this project so far.

Report message to a moderator

Sergeant 1st Class
Re: Logical Bodytypes[message #264625] Sun, 10 October 2010 03:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bio

 
Messages:62
Registered:April 2009
Location: Rhineland-Palatinate/Germ...
For the record. There are now 3 separate (all though closely connected) projects going on:

LOBOT - The logical bodytypes implementataion.

BARE - The batch render and post-processing framework. Collection of tools, scripts, scenes, models and so on for rendering animations (in 3dsMax6 and hopefully soon in Blender). As well as generating STI containers and XML code for the use with LOBOT.

JADES - Jagged Alliance Dynamically Equipped Sprite. For the generation of layers for the stock body types. I wrote a small batch script for extracting all the frames of an STI container in such a way, that it can be used with BARE. I hope that Sorca will take the lead on this one.

In time there will be separate threads for all three in the development sub-forum.

Report message to a moderator

Corporal
Re: Logical Bodytypes[message #264626] Sun, 10 October 2010 04:04 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Mauser is currently offline Mauser

 
Messages:756
Registered:August 2006
Location: Bavaria - Germany
sounds good (and complicated and work intensive) Bio. make it so!

Report message to a moderator

First Sergeant
Previous Topic: Delete MOBILE_MILITIA
Next Topic: Idea on fixing traits for rifles
Goto Forum:
  


Current Time: Fri Mar 29 09:21:56 GMT+2 2024

Total time taken to generate the page: 0.02325 seconds