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Don't really get machine guns[message #256066] Tue, 13 July 2010 02:04 Go to next message
MikeJahn

 
Messages:53
Registered:June 2010
Hey folks, I have played the game for a while and have tried using machine guns but haven't ever found much use for them. Light machine guns (5.56 caliber) don't pack enough of a punch so it ends up being a lot of hits but nearly no damage, by the time they're close enough to do damage its better to just use a regular assault rifle. Heavy machine guns lack mobility (as expected) but they really don't deliver the punch id expect them to - they're supposed to be automatic heavy rifles basically but they don't hit a lot - their accuracy simply isn't good enough to compete with semi automatic rifles/sniper rifles so I end up using just rifles for long and SMG's/Assault rifles for short, machine guns have always been something of a - whatever it does another gun can do better - at short range less AP is wasted with a SMG or assault rifle, at long/medium range its better to just use a long range weapon. People will say its good for hurting morality or knocking people out but I have a stun grenadier for that so a machine gun would just be an inferior grenadier in that role. I really don't get MG's, someone explain?
Re: Don't really get machine guns[message #256098] Tue, 13 July 2010 10:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3804
Registered:July 2009
Did you activate the HAM settings? You can get a package with all settings activated here
The suppression settings greatly increase the usefulness of MG.

Basically, the choice of weapons always depends on the situation you find (or the one you create).
MGs are *not* meant to hit anything, basically when the enemy is close enough to be hit with auto fire, he's close enough to hit *you*.

MGs are meant to *control* the field. Best way to use them is at one end of a road together with some designated marksman and to secure the flanks with some assault rifles.
At the moment, I use an FN MAG and an Ares M4 Shrike together with 2 marksmen and 3 supporters. (planning on increasing to 12 mercs in total)
As nobody ever told the AI that it's suicidal to *charge* an MG nest, massacre ensures. I usually look for the exit of a mine or base or a nice, long road and position my team in a way, that the exit is *barely* in viewing range of the ACOGs on my MGs (well, ACOG Combo to be precise). The enemy won't come any farther. With two MGs I put roughly 100-150rds per turn in the general direction of the enemy, resulting in 90% of them not even *standing up* in *their* turn. The ones who do, or those wounded by the occasional hit, are easy prey for my marksmen.
That way, I waste circa 400+ rds of 5.56 for the shrike and 200+ rds for the MAG per figth, but I wasn't even in danger of being hit. (oh, and with drop all, I usually find enough ammo to even the losses).

That way, it's no problem to *control* 20-30 enemies with only 2 MGs in such a way that they don't ever come in sight range of you.

EDIT:
Just saw you posted this in the vanilla JA2 forum. If you mean the normal JA2, then yeah, MGs aren't that great.

[Updated on: Tue, 13 July 2010 10:50] by Moderator



Re: Don't really get machine guns[message #256138] Tue, 13 July 2010 19:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
MikeJahn

 
Messages:53
Registered:June 2010
I am playing regular 1.13 and I guess I don't have HAM fully activated, I am almost done with the game and never found any use for MG's, will restart the game with full HAM turned up since I am already really good without it. I figured that MG's should basically suppress but in the regular 1.13 I could neither put enough bullets down nor ever suppress anyone - it seemed like they could still fire back just fine.
Re: Don't really get machine guns[message #256141] Tue, 13 July 2010 20:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3804
Registered:July 2009
Quote:
in the regular 1.13 I could neither put enough bullets down nor ever suppress anyone

Yeah, problem is without HAM, suppression fire is broken to the extend of essentially not being there. I remember Headrock writing something like soldiers can only be suppressed once in their entire life, that's why it's impossible to keep them down.

So for basic 1.13 MGs aren't that useful. HBARs like the AUG HBAR or the MG36 can be used if you like high ammo capacity but the big 7.62s are just clumsy and slow.

A note on the accuracy:
Tracers are also reworked in HAM. Every fifth round is a tracer and gives a bonus to CTH, so long salvos become more accurate over time. I usually just don't use them because I can never find enough of them and normal AP does the job of keeping heads down just fine. But if you manage to get your hands on some mags, hit rates will increase drastically.


Re: Don't really get machine guns[message #256145] Tue, 13 July 2010 20:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
I always gave Conrad a heavy machine gun with a heavy bipod. As a support guy, he simply lit blackies up.
Re: Don't really get machine guns[message #256159] Tue, 13 July 2010 22:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Carpenter

 
Messages:10
Registered:July 2010
I don't have HAM on so this may not be applicable to everyone, but I've found that assault rifles with c-mags/drum clips do everything a MG does except better. Their lighter, quicker, and for all practical purposes as long ranged as they need to be. Unlike the MG's you can use their firepower agressively, rather then turtling and relying on the AI suicidally charging your position.

Re: Don't really get machine guns[message #256232] Wed, 14 July 2010 18:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kaerar

 
Messages:2050
Registered:January 2003
Location: Australia :D
That is true, however there are situations (Drassen Defence and other sector defence) where the heavier LMG's are superior. The Shrike, HBAR and MG36 are all good for close encounters but when you need mid range firepower the 7.62 LMG's really shine. H&K 21e being one of my fav's Wink


Re: Don't really get machine guns[message #264368] Wed, 06 October 2010 14:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Buns

 
Messages:669
Registered:September 2010
LMGs become realy usefull when being equipped with rod & spring and a refelx sight/ACOGO-Combo. That way you would be able to shoot up to 45 rounds from a HK 21 in one turn, provided the weapon is readied and the soldier has full APs. You are not able to shoot 45 rounds of 7.62 NATO with any AR because you would have to reload twice during that burst.

If possible you should use tracer ammo. I always find a lot of it on dead enemies, mostly in AR magazines. You should reserve that for your LMG.

When shooting long bursts with your MG remember Saving Private Ryan: "One man is waste of ammunition, three men are a target". When three or four enemies are standing on a spot (not to far away, of course) aim for one in the middle of that group, spit out the full burst, and have the recoil do the needed spread of lead. You will have multiple hits on all targets; the best result I had with that method indeed was three enemies down from "strong" to "dead" by one long burst of some 35 rounds. Each sniper would need three or four turns for the same result.


When using 7.62mm ARs having one MG per squad of 6 is highly recommended because those ARs are designed for single shots and should not be used on auto on distances beyond "dammed close". In case you prefer 5.56mm, having MGs is not that important because those ARs are already designed to be used on full auto or burst and can be upgraded with a C-mag adapter for massive shooting per turn.
Re: Don't really get machine guns[message #264991] Mon, 18 October 2010 00:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
D34THROW

 
Messages:17
Registered:October 2010
Location: In Arulco, working for Ki...
I bought a Minimi and a few hundred rounds of AP ammo from Bobby Ray's and gave it to Conrad. I'm currently taking the SAM site south of Cambria and blowing away every baddie that comes around a corner with it.

I thought the AI in 1.13 was supposed to be better? Razz
Re: Don't really get machine guns[message #265029] Mon, 18 October 2010 17:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Buns

 
Messages:669
Registered:September 2010
What do you expect the enemy to do in this situation? They are inside this house and the only way out is through the illuminated tiles in front of the only door.
Re: Don't really get machine guns[message #266844] Sun, 14 November 2010 05:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Julix

 
Messages:94
Registered:June 2010
Location: Germany

To be fair: The MG that can handle the proper laser is pretty good without it's surpressing skills. On short distance and with tracer ammo you can basically kill with a bit of autofire direction head, on long distance you'll at least hit AND surpress them.Forgot which gun it was... but with rod and spring and combo-scope it only cost like 27 to start firing, plus a couple of AP for extra shot. (Of 100 that is)
Re: Don't really get machine guns[message #267171] Sat, 20 November 2010 02:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sorca_2

 
Messages:203
Registered:September 2010
Location: California, USA
I had Raven using the MG36 with an AR suppressor at night in my first 1.13 game. When I eventually got a rod & spring and a trigger group, she was splattering heads all over the place. I think the MG36 is the only MG that can take a suppressor.
Re: Don't really get machine guns[message #269199] Sat, 01 January 2011 12:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
MikeJahn

 
Messages:53
Registered:June 2010
I have begun playing with suppression turned on normally and found that machine guns are far more useful and I in fact use them regularly. Currently I have one man with a MG-36 and the other with a Browning, the browning is relatively slow but its range is good and it packs a punch that seriously hurts enemies. MG-36 fires a ton but most bullets do minimal damage, been thinking of just switching to Glasers instead since some odd bullet will splatter a grunt.
Re: Don't really get machine guns[message #269201] Sat, 01 January 2011 12:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Logisteric

 
Messages:3381
Registered:December 2008
Location: B
i'd use tracers (night) or match (day) as soon as they are available

btw. can someone tell me if tracxers have a better supression-effect? i think it's even more frightening if you also see what's coming - maybe if you are at already at 20% shock it accelerates
Re: Don't really get machine guns[message #269207] Sat, 01 January 2011 13:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gorro der Grüne

 
Messages:1540
Registered:March 2009
Location: Broadwurschd-City
tracers are only seen from behind (since they have a "burning ass")
Re: Don't really get machine guns[message #269209] Sat, 01 January 2011 14:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Buns

 
Messages:669
Registered:September 2010
I think tracers eleminate the effect of flash surpressors (not sure whether or not that's the case in all versions 1.13), and match is a bit weaker than normal ball/AP. I use them both in LMGs too, preferably tracer: the RPKs I am using ATM have a whooping 0 autopenalty with tracers and muzzlebreak.
Re: Don't really get machine guns[message #269211] Sat, 01 January 2011 15:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gorro der Grüne

 
Messages:1540
Registered:March 2009
Location: Broadwurschd-City
Why should tracers do so?

Parts of the bullet are replaced by the traceringredient (te). which is covered in the bullets metal from 3 sides (all but the back side).
When shot the te begins to burn.
This has nothing to do with the muzzlebreake. The bullet has something like a comet's tail which is only visible frome behind (daytime) or perhaps from the site (stareless, moonless night). oc You see flak and 20mm from the side but no rifleammo like 7,62x?.

The muzzlebrake difuses the flames which come behind the bullet (out of the barrel)


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4c/Leuchtspurgeschoss.jpg


Re: Don't really get machine guns[message #269220] Sat, 01 January 2011 17:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Buns

 
Messages:669
Registered:September 2010
Gorro der Gr
Re: Don't really get machine guns[message #269222] Sat, 01 January 2011 17:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gorro der Grüne

 
Messages:1540
Registered:March 2009
Location: Broadwurschd-City
maybe in the game but not in rl
Re: Don't really get machine guns[message #269224] Sat, 01 January 2011 19:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Buns

 
Messages:669
Registered:September 2010
Well, yes, I was talking about JA2.
Re: Don't really get machine guns[message #269238] Sun, 02 January 2011 07:50 Go to previous message
MikeJahn

 
Messages:53
Registered:June 2010
Yep doing an upgrade of rod+spring and a reflex site greatly improves machine gun speed.
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