Home » BIT COMPOSER GAMES » Jagged Alliance: Back in Action (by Coreplay) » Details about Plan & Go system revealed
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Re: Details about Plan & Go system revealed[message #267666]
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Thu, 02 December 2010 05:11
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1Samildanach |
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Messages:56
Registered:February 2009 Location: Southern hemisphere |
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Psycho1976Got to "love" answer number two. They are not even PLANNING for modding tools when actually making the game. Would it not be oh so much harder to make the tools afterward?
On release, what tools did Sir-Tech provide, and did they even express any intention to make such tools available? While your quote there says they're focusing on making the game rather than making it modifiable, from what they have said elsewhere they do understand the importance of user created content.
Note the highlighted words:
"In the release time frame there are no tools for modifications planned"
"..it took years until the source code of JA2 has been released. We won
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Corporal
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Re: Details about Plan & Go system revealed[message #267692]
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Fri, 03 December 2010 00:35
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1Samildanach |
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Messages:56
Registered:February 2009 Location: Southern hemisphere |
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Psycho1976The source code is not needed to be able to mod a game. What I meant, and I apologize if I was unclear, was that to make the game moddable after the game would be much harder. Especially if you have not planned for the game to be so in the first place.
Examples of great games that has been greatly modded: Elder Scroll Series (and now Fallout), Total War Series (and that is without a SDK). The big difference between those and JA2:R is that the devs support modding. One can though argue about the support from CA (Total War) since the Empire franchise.
BC's attitude to the fans so far leaves me little hope of they being very helpful...
Sorry, my main point was that while they are saying they're not planning to release tools when they release the game, they have expressed (elsewhere) an intention to release them at some point. Presumably they have stuff to make it possible for level designers to do their thing without bothering the programmers all the time (that's what the ESCS is), but I don't know anything about how they're actually doing things, same as you .
It'd be nice to have the tools out of the box, but you shouldn't go condemning them at this point from that quote. JA2 only got a map editor with UB, didn't it?
[Updated on: Fri, 03 December 2010 00:37] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Corporal
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Re: Details about Plan & Go system revealed[message #267728]
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Fri, 03 December 2010 19:32
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Buns |
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Messages:655
Registered:September 2010 |
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It's basically a question what data will be externalized and what will be part of the exe. For example in the Total War serial RTW and M2TW have certain key data, such as scripts, units stats, starting positions, externalized in txt files. That makes it relativly easy to mod those parts of the game. In Empire most content either is part of the exe or stored in highly obscure archives, what makes that game more or less unmoddable. Modding on a scale like 1.13 is of course impossible with any TW game.
In case of JA, the most important part of modding would be the ability to change the data of existing weapons (and other items), and to add new ones. If that's not possible with any run-of-the-mill programms it would be unmoddable too.
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As for Plan & Go, my opinion would be that any real time approach would seriously ruin the game. Just imagine you had Raven (scoped M14) and Buzz (Ares Shrike) camping around somewhere; now one bad guy comes around the corner near Raven and another one appears across the street at a window.
In JA2 you would check the options you have during your turn, what could be Raven shoots the guy at the window and Buzz bursts away the bad guy next to Raven; or Raven bursts with her M14 at the closer guy and Buzz tries to suppress the one on the window, or Buzz tries a heradshot herself; or Raven draws her pistol to shoot the guy next to her, Buzz is throwing a smoke grenade near the window and both try to get out the next turn; and so on - endless options, mostly depending on the items both carry around.
I cannot imagine how that could work in a RTC game. It would basically come down to one of the two possibilities: either the game is constantly paused, or each merc would end up with a certain role he always is fullfilling, here Raven is a sniper and reacts to everything with aimed shots from her M14 and Buzz is a MG gunner and bursts on everything she sees with her Ares.
Both switching roles or using different weapons or moving instead of shooting is not possible without the player being invloved - what would only be possible when you by chance had been babysitting those two and not were busy moving Grunty and Barry around on the other end of the map.
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First Sergeant
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Re: Details about Plan & Go system revealed[message #267794]
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Sat, 04 December 2010 16:48
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psycho1976 |
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Messages:29
Registered:February 2008 |
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BunsIt's basically a question what data will be externalized and what will be part of the exe. For example in the Total War serial RTW and M2TW have certain key data, such as scripts, units stats, starting positions, externalized in txt files. That makes it relativly easy to mod those parts of the game. In Empire most content either is part of the exe or stored in highly obscure archives, what makes that game more or less unmoddable. Modding on a scale like 1.13 is of course impossible with any TW game.
In case of JA, the most important part of modding would be the ability to change the data of existing weapons (and other items), and to add new ones. If that's not possible with any run-of-the-mill programms it would be unmoddable too.
Quite well put, with one small caveat...
Up until the Empire franchise of the Total War series the game was and IS VERY modded by the fans. I would actually go as far to compare the 1.13 mod of JA 2 to the Stainless Steel version. Both make the original game pale and add tons of new units/guns and change the game play beyond recognition!
I'm a great fan of M2TW, can you tell?
Edit: oh, the UFO-series are good fun to play, but as mentioned they lack the tactical depth of JA2. Basically for me the UFO games are more of an "arcade-style" combat and more for an action fix.
[Updated on: Sat, 04 December 2010 16:51] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Private 1st Class
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Re: Details about Plan & Go system revealed[message #267959]
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Tue, 07 December 2010 22:17
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Zarax |
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Messages:54
Registered:February 2007 Location: Italy |
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Psycho1976BunsIt's basically a question what data will be externalized and what will be part of the exe. For example in the Total War serial RTW and M2TW have certain key data, such as scripts, units stats, starting positions, externalized in txt files. That makes it relativly easy to mod those parts of the game. In Empire most content either is part of the exe or stored in highly obscure archives, what makes that game more or less unmoddable. Modding on a scale like 1.13 is of course impossible with any TW game.
In case of JA, the most important part of modding would be the ability to change the data of existing weapons (and other items), and to add new ones. If that's not possible with any run-of-the-mill programms it would be unmoddable too.
Quite well put, with one small caveat...
Up until the Empire franchise of the Total War series the game was and IS VERY modded by the fans. I would actually go as far to compare the 1.13 mod of JA 2 to the Stainless Steel version. Both make the original game pale and add tons of new units/guns and change the game play beyond recognition!
I'm a great fan of M2TW, can you tell?
Edit: oh, the UFO-series are good fun to play, but as mentioned they lack the tactical depth of JA2. Basically for me the UFO games are more of an "arcade-style" combat and more for an action fix.
RTW Modder here
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Corporal
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Re: Details about Plan & Go system revealed[message #267978]
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Wed, 08 December 2010 17:33
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CptMoore |
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Messages:224
Registered:March 2009 |
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It is possible to mod good structured binary files, however you need time and knowledge to do so. Just look at XCom ufo defense for modding capabilities, yea they are limited but they made some stuff work. Or the TES loaders (for morrowind, oblivion, fallout .. ) they bring more functionality.
Unfortunatly for small community games, like tactical games, there just aint enough people that invest time to make those binary modifications. Source code modifications are much much easier to do, and are therefore more probable to happen. XML modifications are even easier since you only need a text editor to do so (and time..).
But I really hope they make the whol plan and go system logic mostly in LUA or a similar scripting language so we could add gameplay elements of ourselfs if wanted.
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Sergeant 1st Class
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Re: Details about Plan & Go system revealed[message #268008]
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Wed, 08 December 2010 21:18
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psycho1976 |
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Messages:29
Registered:February 2008 |
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BunsPsycho1976Up until the Empire franchise of the Total War series the game was and IS VERY modded by the fans. I would actually go as far to compare the 1.13 mod of JA 2 to the Stainless Steel version. Both make the original game pale and add tons of new units/guns and change the game play beyond recognition!
I'm a great fan of M2TW, can you tell? I am a seasoned modder of RTW and M2TW as well (wouldn't reveal my nick from the TWC, but I know what I am talking about). The thing is that you can do some magic with the script, trait files, unit stats, graphics etc; but all that's nothing compared to the abilities of JA2 where you have access to the source code. Something on the level of, say, New Inventory is completly impossible in M2TW because without the source code you can neither implement something complete new nor get around any hardcoded limits.
Won't argue against that, but for a noob like me it is magic (in both games that is. Currently trying out the latest compilation of sub mods for Stainless steel, bloody awesome!)
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Private 1st Class
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Re: Details about Plan & Go system revealed[message #273232]
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Thu, 10 February 2011 21:27
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Gomeril |
Messages:3
Registered:July 2008 |
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The worst thing they do is removing the fog of war. Fog of war is the specialty of computer gaming. Nearly impossible to do with boardgames or tabletop games. And the idea, that this would make a game more "strategic" is plain silly. And we have chess already, thank you very much.
I know this is heretic, but I am not against a pause system. Provided you can get the game to stop at all relevant events, you can do all the micromanagement you like during the pause, and there will be no hectic clicking at all. It was nicely done in Brigade E5 and the sequel. The problem with those games were the bugs and that they fucked up about everything else in game design.
My two cents. Now bring it on.
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Civilian
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