Home » BIT COMPOSER GAMES » Jagged Alliance: Back in Action (by Coreplay) » Details about Plan & Go system revealed
Re: Details about Plan & Go system revealed[message #267636] Wed, 01 December 2010 17:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
psycho1976 is currently offline psycho1976

 
Messages:29
Registered:February 2008
Some new questions answered today...
Quote:
Hi BigFatLady,

here are the answers on your questions:

Q1: If you keep the original Mercenary, what would you do with the voices? I mean a full re-voicing would change the "original" feeling, it's kind of an hard decision for you isn't it?
That

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Private 1st Class
Re: Details about Plan & Go system revealed[message #267666] Thu, 02 December 2010 05:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
1Samildanach

 
Messages:56
Registered:February 2009
Location: Southern hemisphere
Psycho1976
Got to "love" answer number two. They are not even PLANNING for modding tools when actually making the game. Would it not be oh so much harder to make the tools afterward?

On release, what tools did Sir-Tech provide, and did they even express any intention to make such tools available? While your quote there says they're focusing on making the game rather than making it modifiable, from what they have said elsewhere they do understand the importance of user created content.

Note the highlighted words:
"In the release time frame there are no tools for modifications planned"

"..it took years until the source code of JA2 has been released. We won

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Corporal
Re: Details about Plan & Go system revealed[message #267671] Thu, 02 December 2010 08:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
psycho1976 is currently offline psycho1976

 
Messages:29
Registered:February 2008
1Samildanach
Psycho1976
Got to "love" answer number two. They are not even PLANNING for modding tools when actually making the game. Would it not be oh so much harder to make the tools afterward?

On release, what tools did Sir-Tech provide, and did they even express any intention to make such tools available? While your quote there says they're focusing on making the game rather than making it modifiable, from what they have said elsewhere they do understand the importance of user created content.

Note the highlighted words:
"In the release time frame there are no tools for modifications planned"

"..it took years until the source code of JA2 has been released. We won

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Private 1st Class
Re: Details about Plan & Go system revealed[message #267692] Fri, 03 December 2010 00:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
1Samildanach

 
Messages:56
Registered:February 2009
Location: Southern hemisphere
Psycho1976
The source code is not needed to be able to mod a game. What I meant, and I apologize if I was unclear, was that to make the game moddable after the game would be much harder. Especially if you have not planned for the game to be so in the first place.

Examples of great games that has been greatly modded: Elder Scroll Series (and now Fallout), Total War Series (and that is without a SDK). The big difference between those and JA2:R is that the devs support modding. One can though argue about the support from CA (Total War) since the Empire franchise.

BC's attitude to the fans so far leaves me little hope of they being very helpful...

Sorry, my main point was that while they are saying they're not planning to release tools when they release the game, they have expressed (elsewhere) an intention to release them at some point. Presumably they have stuff to make it possible for level designers to do their thing without bothering the programmers all the time (that's what the ESCS is), but I don't know anything about how they're actually doing things, same as you Wink.

It'd be nice to have the tools out of the box, but you shouldn't go condemning them at this point from that quote. JA2 only got a map editor with UB, didn't it?

[Updated on: Fri, 03 December 2010 00:37] by Moderator

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Corporal
Re: Details about Plan & Go system revealed[message #267719] Fri, 03 December 2010 14:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shanga is currently offline Shanga

 
Messages:3482
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia
What makes a game moddable (not map-able) is for the functions and models used for various bits and pieces to be:

a) not hardcoded
b) easy editable in mainstream utilities (think Maya for 3d models)
c) not packed into some impossible archive (NOT like JA2 JSDs)
d) well documented and commented modding wise

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Captain
Re: Details about Plan & Go system revealed[message #267728] Fri, 03 December 2010 19:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Buns is currently offline Buns

 
Messages:655
Registered:September 2010
It's basically a question what data will be externalized and what will be part of the exe. For example in the Total War serial RTW and M2TW have certain key data, such as scripts, units stats, starting positions, externalized in txt files. That makes it relativly easy to mod those parts of the game. In Empire most content either is part of the exe or stored in highly obscure archives, what makes that game more or less unmoddable. Modding on a scale like 1.13 is of course impossible with any TW game.

In case of JA, the most important part of modding would be the ability to change the data of existing weapons (and other items), and to add new ones. If that's not possible with any run-of-the-mill programms it would be unmoddable too.

---------------------------

As for Plan & Go, my opinion would be that any real time approach would seriously ruin the game. Just imagine you had Raven (scoped M14) and Buzz (Ares Shrike) camping around somewhere; now one bad guy comes around the corner near Raven and another one appears across the street at a window.

In JA2 you would check the options you have during your turn, what could be Raven shoots the guy at the window and Buzz bursts away the bad guy next to Raven; or Raven bursts with her M14 at the closer guy and Buzz tries to suppress the one on the window, or Buzz tries a heradshot herself; or Raven draws her pistol to shoot the guy next to her, Buzz is throwing a smoke grenade near the window and both try to get out the next turn; and so on - endless options, mostly depending on the items both carry around.

I cannot imagine how that could work in a RTC game. It would basically come down to one of the two possibilities: either the game is constantly paused, or each merc would end up with a certain role he always is fullfilling, here Raven is a sniper and reacts to everything with aimed shots from her M14 and Buzz is a MG gunner and bursts on everything she sees with her Ares.

Both switching roles or using different weapons or moving instead of shooting is not possible without the player being invloved - what would only be possible when you by chance had been babysitting those two and not were busy moving Grunty and Barry around on the other end of the map.

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First Sergeant
Re: Details about Plan & Go system revealed[message #267771] Sat, 04 December 2010 12:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
usrbid is currently offline usrbid

 
Messages:1506
Registered:December 2008
Yo Buns, the game pauses at certain events, like soldier sees enemy, soldier gets hurt etc. Have you played any of the UFO Aftermath, Afterlight etc.? No need to imagine how this could work, just play the demo if you want to see how it actually works.

Now I am wondering how many people might be in the same situation and simply not know how pause events automatically stop time. (And the user can choose the event types which pause the time in an options screen).

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Sergeant Major

Re: Details about Plan & Go system revealed[message #267774] Sat, 04 December 2010 13:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Geist is currently offline Geist

 
Messages:13
Registered:October 2010
Dieter
Yo Buns, the game pauses at certain events, like soldier sees enemy, soldier gets hurt etc. Have you played any of the UFO Aftermath, Afterlight etc.? No need to imagine how this could work, just play the demo if you want to see how it actually works.

Now I am wondering how many people might be in the same situation and simply not know how pause events automatically stop time. (And the user can choose the event types which pause the time in an options screen).


Dieter, I have played UFO Aftermath. It is a different game. It isn't as deep as is JA2. Yes it works. But I never got the impression to having total control of the events, like I have in JA2. I know it is a question of taste, but I think it is the same for the majority of the die-hard players of JA2.

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Private
Re: Details about Plan & Go system revealed[message #267784] Sat, 04 December 2010 13:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lockie is currently offline lockie

 
Messages:3721
Registered:February 2006
Location: Scotland
Quote:
Dieter, I have played UFO Aftermath. It is a different game. It isn't as deep as is JA2. Yes it works. But I never got the impression to having total control of the events, like I have in JA2. I know it is a question of taste, but I think it is the same for the majority of the die-hard players of JA2.


Couldn't agree more .

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Captain

Re: Details about Plan & Go system revealed[message #267794] Sat, 04 December 2010 16:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
psycho1976 is currently offline psycho1976

 
Messages:29
Registered:February 2008
Buns
It's basically a question what data will be externalized and what will be part of the exe. For example in the Total War serial RTW and M2TW have certain key data, such as scripts, units stats, starting positions, externalized in txt files. That makes it relativly easy to mod those parts of the game. In Empire most content either is part of the exe or stored in highly obscure archives, what makes that game more or less unmoddable. Modding on a scale like 1.13 is of course impossible with any TW game.

In case of JA, the most important part of modding would be the ability to change the data of existing weapons (and other items), and to add new ones. If that's not possible with any run-of-the-mill programms it would be unmoddable too.


Quite well put, with one small caveat...

Up until the Empire franchise of the Total War series the game was and IS VERY modded by the fans. I would actually go as far to compare the 1.13 mod of JA 2 to the Stainless Steel version. Both make the original game pale and add tons of new units/guns and change the game play beyond recognition! Smile

I'm a great fan of M2TW, can you tell? Razz

Edit: oh, the UFO-series are good fun to play, but as mentioned they lack the tactical depth of JA2. Basically for me the UFO games are more of an "arcade-style" combat and more for an action fix.

[Updated on: Sat, 04 December 2010 16:51] by Moderator

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Private 1st Class
Re: Details about Plan & Go system revealed[message #267818] Sun, 05 December 2010 08:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
usrbid is currently offline usrbid

 
Messages:1506
Registered:December 2008
Yo guys, I am not saying UFO After* is better, it isn't. I *hate* that I have to adjust the camera angle all the time, and of course it is very shallow game play.

I am just explaining to Buns and whoever else wants to know about pause time how it works / feels. From the post it felt that there are a lot of open questions around pause time, which is really not necessary as there are plenty of examples out there.

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Sergeant Major

Re: Details about Plan & Go system revealed[message #267867] Mon, 06 December 2010 09:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Megabit is currently offline Megabit

 
Messages:31
Registered:August 2010
Location: Croatia
lockie
Quote:
Dieter, I have played UFO Aftermath. It is a different game. It isn't as deep as is JA2. Yes it works. But I never got the impression to having total control of the events, like I have in JA2. I know it is a question of taste, but I think it is the same for the majority of the die-hard players of JA2.


Couldn't agree more .


Me too!

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Re: Details about Plan & Go system revealed[message #267959] Tue, 07 December 2010 22:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Zarax

 
Messages:54
Registered:February 2007
Location: Italy
Psycho1976
Buns
It's basically a question what data will be externalized and what will be part of the exe. For example in the Total War serial RTW and M2TW have certain key data, such as scripts, units stats, starting positions, externalized in txt files. That makes it relativly easy to mod those parts of the game. In Empire most content either is part of the exe or stored in highly obscure archives, what makes that game more or less unmoddable. Modding on a scale like 1.13 is of course impossible with any TW game.

In case of JA, the most important part of modding would be the ability to change the data of existing weapons (and other items), and to add new ones. If that's not possible with any run-of-the-mill programms it would be unmoddable too.


Quite well put, with one small caveat...

Up until the Empire franchise of the Total War series the game was and IS VERY modded by the fans. I would actually go as far to compare the 1.13 mod of JA 2 to the Stainless Steel version. Both make the original game pale and add tons of new units/guns and change the game play beyond recognition! Smile

I'm a great fan of M2TW, can you tell? Razz

Edit: oh, the UFO-series are good fun to play, but as mentioned they lack the tactical depth of JA2. Basically for me the UFO games are more of an "arcade-style" combat and more for an action fix.


RTW Modder here Smile

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Corporal
Re: Details about Plan & Go system revealed[message #267977] Wed, 08 December 2010 16:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Buns is currently offline Buns

 
Messages:655
Registered:September 2010
Psycho1976
Up until the Empire franchise of the Total War series the game was and IS VERY modded by the fans. I would actually go as far to compare the 1.13 mod of JA 2 to the Stainless Steel version. Both make the original game pale and add tons of new units/guns and change the game play beyond recognition! Smile

I'm a great fan of M2TW, can you tell?
I am a seasoned modder of RTW and M2TW as well (wouldn't reveal my nick from the TWC, but I know what I am talking about). The thing is that you can do some magic with the script, trait files, unit stats, graphics etc; but all that's nothing compared to the abilities of JA2 where you have access to the source code. Something on the level of, say, New Inventory is completly impossible in M2TW because without the source code you can neither implement something complete new nor get around any hardcoded limits.

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First Sergeant
Re: Details about Plan & Go system revealed[message #267978] Wed, 08 December 2010 17:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CptMoore

 
Messages:224
Registered:March 2009
It is possible to mod good structured binary files, however you need time and knowledge to do so. Just look at XCom ufo defense for modding capabilities, yea they are limited but they made some stuff work. Or the TES loaders (for morrowind, oblivion, fallout .. ) they bring more functionality.

Unfortunatly for small community games, like tactical games, there just aint enough people that invest time to make those binary modifications. Source code modifications are much much easier to do, and are therefore more probable to happen. XML modifications are even easier since you only need a text editor to do so (and time..).

But I really hope they make the whol plan and go system logic mostly in LUA or a similar scripting language so we could add gameplay elements of ourselfs if wanted.

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Sergeant 1st Class
Re: Details about Plan & Go system revealed[message #268008] Wed, 08 December 2010 21:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
psycho1976 is currently offline psycho1976

 
Messages:29
Registered:February 2008
Buns
Psycho1976
Up until the Empire franchise of the Total War series the game was and IS VERY modded by the fans. I would actually go as far to compare the 1.13 mod of JA 2 to the Stainless Steel version. Both make the original game pale and add tons of new units/guns and change the game play beyond recognition! Smile

I'm a great fan of M2TW, can you tell?
I am a seasoned modder of RTW and M2TW as well (wouldn't reveal my nick from the TWC, but I know what I am talking about). The thing is that you can do some magic with the script, trait files, unit stats, graphics etc; but all that's nothing compared to the abilities of JA2 where you have access to the source code. Something on the level of, say, New Inventory is completly impossible in M2TW because without the source code you can neither implement something complete new nor get around any hardcoded limits.


Won't argue against that, but for a noob like me it is magic Wink (in both games that is. Currently trying out the latest compilation of sub mods for Stainless steel, bloody awesome!)

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Private 1st Class
Re: Details about Plan & Go system revealed[message #273232] Thu, 10 February 2011 21:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gomeril is currently offline Gomeril
Messages:3
Registered:July 2008
The worst thing they do is removing the fog of war. Fog of war is the specialty of computer gaming. Nearly impossible to do with boardgames or tabletop games. And the idea, that this would make a game more "strategic" is plain silly. And we have chess already, thank you very much.

I know this is heretic, but I am not against a pause system. Provided you can get the game to stop at all relevant events, you can do all the micromanagement you like during the pause, and there will be no hectic clicking at all. It was nicely done in Brigade E5 and the sequel. The problem with those games were the bugs and that they fucked up about everything else in game design.
My two cents. Now bring it on.

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Civilian
Re: Details about Plan & Go system revealed[message #273292] Fri, 11 February 2011 06:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
usrbid is currently offline usrbid

 
Messages:1506
Registered:December 2008
HeroQuest and similar board games support fog of war very easily due to rooms and corridors being determined when the player discovers them.

http://www.winsoftware.de/screenshots/big/heroquestgame.JPG

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Sergeant Major

Re: Details about Plan & Go system revealed[message #273304] Fri, 11 February 2011 10:35 Go to previous message
nollan is currently offline nollan

 
Messages:106
Registered:July 2006
Location: Le Su
Someone should REALLY convert that game to Flash, iPhone or whatever. Great game.

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Sergeant
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