Home » MODDING HQ 1.13 » v1.13 Modding, Customising, Editing » v1.13 Weapon & Item Refinement » MAM 2.4.5 - Caliber driven damage, penetration and tumble values - RELEASE!
MAM 2.4.5 - Caliber driven damage, penetration and tumble values - RELEASE![message #268973] Mon, 27 December 2010 00:21 Go to next message
MJOne

 
Messages:99
Registered:March 2010
Location: Sweden
[color:#FF6600]MAM 2.4.5 - MJOne's Ammunition Mod - 2.4.5![/color]
VISIT THE HOMEPAGE!
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This mod is made for JA2 1.13.4552
[color:#FF0000]Visit the homepage to read about the upcoming MAM 2.5 patch![/color]

Features

Calculated Values
  • New Damage Values for every weapon ingame, calculated based on:
    • Bullet Width
    • Bullet Weight
    • Bullet Speed
    • Bullet Shape
    • Bullet Type
    • Barrel Length
  • New Tumble Values for every caliber ingame, calculated based on:
    • Bullet Width
    • Bullet Weight
    • Bullet Speed
    • Bullet Shape
    • Bullet Type
  • New Penetration Values for every caliber ingame, calculated based on:
    • Bullet Width
    • Bullet Weight
    • Bullet Speed
    • Bullet Shape
    • Bullet Type
  • Calculated Range values for all weapons!
  • Calculated OLD CTH values for all weapons!
  • Calculated NCTH values for all weapons!
  • Changed most one-handed smg's, to two handed!
  • Future ammo addon support!
  • Two new invisble ammotypes (JHP, JSP)
  • Splitted errorenous ammotype AP/FMJ to AP and FMJ, AP IS NOT FMJ!
  • Some attatchment tweaks!
  • Possibility of ZERO damage for all calibers!
  • All ammotypes now have correct divisor value! (Old buckshot = Damage/4 is now = Damage/9, divisior is equal to number of pellets shot)
  • 50 weapons for the enemy to choose from, at every level of the game!
  • Calculated price values for all weapons!
Overview

Here I will present the inner workings of the MOD. I have based all my formulas on extensive research and fiddled with them to suit the gameplay.
I have paid a lot of attention to the thing called Energy Transfer. I will explain that furter down.

All the vanilla ammotypes Ball, FMJ, AP, HP, Match, Glaser, Tracer, AET, Buckshot, etc have all been replaced by ammotypes based upon REAL data.
Instead of having one ammotype with one tumble and penetration value for all calibers, I have made SEVERAL ammotypes for EVERY caliber in game, let's have a look:

Ammotype ----- Penetration Multiplier ----- Penetration Divisor ----- Tumble Multiplier ----- Tumble Divisor

9x19mm FMJ ------------ 947 ------------------------- 1000 --------------------- 100 -------------------- 100 -----
9x19mm AP --------------- 38 -------------------------- 100 ----------------------- 80 -------------------- 100 -----
9x19mm HP ------------- 284 -------------------------- 100 ---------------------- 160 -------------------- 100 -----

.45 ACP FMJ ------------ 1350 ------------------------ 1000 --------------------- 100 -------------------- 100 -----
.45 ACP AP ---------------- 54 ------------------------- 100 ----------------------- 80 -------------------- 100 -----
.45 ACP HP -------------- 405 ------------------------- 100 ---------------------- 160 -------------------- 100 -----


Don't let the tumble value here fool you, the tumble characteristics of each caliber has already been multiplied into the overall damage.
This is not as realistic as I wanted it to be, but it will not confuse anyone:

For example, say you have a weapon that states that it does 10 in damage, but has a tumble value of 1.5,
that means it is actually doing 15 in damage, not the stated 10...

However, you still have different tumble for different ammo types:

FMJ = 1
AP = 0,8
HP = 1,6
Glaser = 2
AET = 1,2
LRN = 1,15
JHP = 1,4
JSP = 1,3

I will post some pictures here to prove to you that there is still a dramatic difference between the calibers performance:

Study this picture in-depth
Toggle Spoiler


FOREWORD
Damage is a complex thing in RL when it comes to ballistics. Humans are 60%-70% water, so pressure and "waves" will form in the body when struck by a strong force.
How that will affect the inner organs and the like is beyond JA2 engine. However, it is worth mentioning. We are not simple wood boards that bullet fly through.
Then there is shock, blunt trauma, bleeding, after effects, fragmentation, deformation, pentration, tumbling, change of trajectory, hit loaction and all that stuff...
We can only try to simulate this to the best of our knowledge...

DAMAGE
Toggle Spoiler


TUMBLE
Toggle Spoiler


PENETRATION
Toggle Spoiler


RANGE
Toggle Spoiler


ACCURACY
Toggle Spoiler


SUMMARY
Toggle Spoiler


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Updates


Armor Overhaul! - Patch 2.4.5
Toggle Spoiler


Attachment Tweaks! - Patch 2.4.5
Toggle Spoiler


Five New Weapons! - Patch 2.4.5
Toggle Spoiler


Two New Mines! - Patch 2.4.5
Toggle Spoiler


Shotgun Tweaks! - Patch 2.4.5
Toggle Spoiler


Enemy has access to all ammo types! - Patch 2.4.1 - [color:#CC0000]IMPORTANT, READ THIS IF YOU WILL MODIFY MY FILES![/color]
Toggle Spoiler


Enemy drops all ammo types! - Patch 2.4.1
Toggle Spoiler


Added NEW FMJ Magazines for several calibers! FMJ IS NOT AP! - Patch 2.4 - [color:#FF0000]MAJOR FEATURE!!![/color]
Toggle Spoiler


Calculated Ammo Prices! - Patch 2.4
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Calculated Ammo box Capacity based on round volume! - Patch 2.4
Toggle Spoiler
Re: Automated Specific Ammo Type XML Stat Calculator - Calc Chart[message #268974] Mon, 27 December 2010 00:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Marlboro Man

 
Messages:1203
Registered:October 2005
Location: USA
Pretty neat indeed. Wink


Re: Automated Specific Ammo Type XML Stat Calculator - Calc Chart[message #268976] Mon, 27 December 2010 00:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sot

 
Messages:86
Registered:April 2009
Why complicate things? And all so complicated:) The current system works quite well ... IMHO in this game need to implement some other interesting features, such as the ability to charge one weapon magazines of different capacities Wink
But an adequate system of calculating the lethality of munitions do not really - too many parameters. Why turn the game into "physical calculator?
Sorry if I'm broken off your idea.
And sorry for my "English"Wink

[Updated on: Mon, 27 December 2010 00:43] by Moderator

Re: Automated Specific Ammo Type XML Stat Calculator - Calc Chart[message #268977] Mon, 27 December 2010 00:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
MJOne

 
Messages:99
Registered:March 2010
Location: Sweden
@Marlboro Man ---> Thanks!

@Sot ---> What do you mean complicated? It is not complicated, instead of guessing damage and let all the FMJ ammotypes have the same armor penetration, you type in 8 data-values and you get everything calculated for you. But I will release modified XML files so you don't have to change anything yourself. And it is also made to help modders who want to add custom ammo.

However I respect your standpoint. Smile
Re: Automated Specific Ammo Type XML Stat Calculator - Calc Chart[message #269019] Mon, 27 December 2010 23:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wil473

 
Messages:2842
Registered:September 2004
Location: Canada
Don't forget to add the new ammotypes to the possible EnemyAmmo selections.


Re: Automated Specific Ammo Type XML Stat Calculator - Calc Chart[message #269020] Tue, 28 December 2010 00:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
MJOne

 
Messages:99
Registered:March 2010
Location: Sweden
@wil473 ---> Thank you for that! Smile I hope it can handle more then 50 entries, right?
Re: Automated Specific Ammo Type XML Stat Calculator - Calc Chart[message #269507] Thu, 06 January 2011 23:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
MJOne

 
Messages:99
Registered:March 2010
Location: Sweden
Just a heads up, im almost done, im currently testing everything out.
Re: Automated Specific Ammo Type XML Stat Calculator - Calc Chart[message #269521] Fri, 07 January 2011 09:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sovereign

 
Messages:80
Registered:July 2010
Location: Jerusalem, Israel

I am very interested in this!
Re: Automated Specific Ammo Type XML Stat Calculator - Calc Chart[message #269531] Fri, 07 January 2011 12:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
MJOne

 
Messages:99
Registered:March 2010
Location: Sweden
Does anyone know if it is possible to increase the number(currently 50) of columns in the "enemy ammo choices" within the XML editor? I can manually change them in the XML file to a higher number(143) but as soon as I save the documents in the XML editor it cuts it back down to 50. That means that currently there is only room for the enemy to choose between FMJ and AP. Unless you do it manually, everytime after you have saved the documents in the XML editor, which is kinda boring in the long run.

As far as I can tell everything looks pretty ok, in my world. Wink

Everyone has an idea of what "realistic" is, I try to make the numbers speak for themselfs, but having said that, be prepare to take cover when the big calibers are flying over your head.

I am currently playing with 75% of gun damage and it works kinda well. I might increase it to 80-85.
I have also increased the armor values of some of the armors to neglect the power of the larger calibers 7.62x51 and upwards. Im trying to find as much information as possible about large calibers, ballistic gel tests and the trauma effect of being hit by such a large bullets. And from the information I have found..... it's nasty. Smile

Just the blunt force alone could kill you if you where wearing a protective vest or vests.

I will probarly release something soon for you all to try out.

Have a good one!

Ill be back...

[Updated on: Fri, 07 January 2011 12:38] by Moderator

Re: Automated Specific Ammo Type XML Stat Calculator - Calc Chart[message #270033] Wed, 12 January 2011 13:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
MJOne

 
Messages:99
Registered:March 2010
Location: Sweden
Okey, im currently tweaking the last things here, but it seems, that I can't stop myself from getting my hands dirty. I have changed the 5.56x45 magazine pictures to a new and darker picture. Based upon this:
http://mooreoutdoors.biz/weapons/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/heckler-koch-m4-m16-sa80.jpg

I still use the "funky" ammotype color codes, and I added the FRANgible and the FMJ(not AP!!!) in the same caliber(5.56x45).
If I get alot of sparetime I might update every picture, will see. And I WILL also add the FMJ ammotype for all the rifle calibers.

Bye for now...

/MJOne


[Updated on: Wed, 12 January 2011 13:13] by Moderator

Re: Automated Specific Ammo Type XML Stat Calculator - Calc Chart[message #270105] Wed, 12 January 2011 20:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Beka

 
Messages:89
Registered:November 2009
Location: Vault 13
I'm very curious to try your "mod" once it's done.
I hope you're doing enough testing to properly balance your new settings?!

I just might point out furthermore that in my opinion all JA2 mechanics and new features should have "gameplay" as top-priority - and we all know that gameplay is not always = realism.

I'm glad that someone takes a deeper look into the ammo types since I'm also annoyed by all the ammo types having similar stats. Just make sure that it adds to gameplay without making things too complicated.

Re: Automated Specific Ammo Type XML Stat Calculator - Calc Chart[message #270694] Wed, 19 January 2011 17:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Xardes

 
Messages:6
Registered:January 2011
I was looking for my thought the my XLM file to add it myself because a .44 magnum does the same damage then a 9mm and with the same armor penetration value (facepalm).

I shoot guns myself and if someone shoot a .44 at the range you feel the shockwave in your gut. I am glad to see than I am not the only one who knows that damage of guns comes from the Ammunition not from a barrel ceases in steel plastics or wood.

if want need help give me a sign.
Re: Automated Specific Ammo Type XML Stat Calculator - Calc Chart[message #270759] Thu, 20 January 2011 05:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bever

 
Messages:24
Registered:March 2009
Location: Australia
Went through and edited ammo types back a couple of years ago on one of my games. Was sweet until one day I broke something and then couldn't be bothered re-doing it all. Did all my xml manual entry though. I'll definatly give this a try once your finished it will be good to get a bit of difference between all the weapons in the game again.
Re: Automated Specific Ammo Type XML Stat Calculator - Calc Chart[message #270855] Fri, 21 January 2011 02:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
MJOne

 
Messages:99
Registered:March 2010
Location: Sweden
Well well, im kinda done, it's all about testing actually. I have alot around me atm, so maybe I'll just release it for others to continue the testing. I have custom ammo types and some custom graphics, but nothing major that will make an outrage. I have added 5.56x45mm FMJ + graphic, and 7.62x39mm FMJ + graphic. Remember, AP is seperate(not FMJ) but they are there as well.

Yeah, it's all about the ammunition, well 90% or so. Gunpowder load, bullet weight etc.

A fancy gun won't save your ass, a capable ammunition will.

Well I have to find somewere to upload the files then I'll post a link.



But it's not 100% finished, some more ammotypes will be added and the ARMOURS are not balanced right just yet. But they work.
And the Cold ammo is not changed at all. But thats about it. Everything else should be fine.

I will continue the work when I got time over.

Take care

/MJOne

[Updated on: Fri, 21 January 2011 02:37] by Moderator

Re: Automated Specific Ammo Type XML Stat Calculator - Calc Chart[message #270857] Fri, 21 January 2011 02:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
MJOne

 
Messages:99
Registered:March 2010
Location: Sweden
Here is the download link, make backup of your old files, the CalcChart is in the Data-1.13 directory.

Enjoy!

Be aware though, some ammo magazines of the 5.56x45mm and the 7.62x39mm does not have FMJ ammo type yet, meaning, the game will spit out a different(or the next id, im not sure) ammotype. For example, if you use the 30 round clip FMJ in the SKS, and unload you get the 10 round HP COLD ammo.

Im working on this of course as fast as I can, but you can still use the ammo as normal, it only effects the 5.56x45 and the 7.62x39.

I play with these settings in the JA2_options file:

MELEE_DAMAGE_MODIFIER = 85
GUN_DAMAGE_MODIFIER = 85

Because of a bug you need to change both values or the gun damage is somehow stored in the melee modifier, I can't remember, to actually see a change in the gun-damage.

Well well, here it is:

I use the 1.13.3356 build 10 03 07 version.

MASAT <- WTF? - MOD Download

"We can name it later..." /John Sheppard

[Updated on: Fri, 21 January 2011 13:33] by Moderator

Re: Automated Specific Ammo Type XML Stat Calculator - Calc Chart[message #271048] Mon, 24 January 2011 09:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bever

 
Messages:24
Registered:March 2009
Location: Australia
Sweet work on that table and the changes. I'll be keeping an eye open for your updates. Do you know if it will work on more recent SVN versions? I'll test it out and see how I go. If I'm getting to many crashes or loose to many features I'll start integrating it into my Modded XML Tables.

btw. Love your quote my wife saw it and she loves the whole Stargate franchise but Atlantis in particular. Lat week she told me if I'm spending so much time on this game I should do something useful for her and make it a Stargate Atlantis style spin off with Wraith instead of enemy soldiers. I'm useless with graphics though so her dream will have to wait till someone is as equally obsessed as her.
Re: Automated Specific Ammo Type XML Stat Calculator - Calc Chart[message #271559] Fri, 28 January 2011 05:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LootFragg

 
Messages:349
Registered:August 2009
Location: Berlin, Germany
Thumbing this bitch UP!

Now this is something I deem useful. Not only useful, I think I remember actually having nagged people and ranting about how far away from intuitive the gun values were. I've actually spent some time in JA2 trying to use big ass handguns, which always ended being pointless due to a .454 casull one-shot gun not even dealing significantly more damage than some high quality ACP pistol. Plus I always thought that 9mm slugs could destroy far more tissue than 5.56mm bullets. I know that the latter have triple the kinetic energy, but what good is it for when they just punch right through? I mean they can pierce trees. Why would they get entirely absorbed by a human body without ballistic protection? So the values always felt wrong. Assault rifles were too strong, rifles were superior to submachineguns and you'd only use SMGs if you wanted to stay silent.

That's why I think this could be a revolution. To me. And I don't care what other people think. =D
I only agree with those who were against making things more complicated on a certain point, which is that this ammo will never be entirely realistic. Flight paths are just nowhere near realistic, everything's built up on those isometric voxels and thus you can't create actual ballistics.

Nevermind though, I absolutely support this project, as long as it makes JA2 gun choices more intuitive. What I would want to ultimately see is:
    Large caliber guns actually becoming kinda useful against weakly armored foes on close ranges.
  • Assault rifles becoming FAR LESS useful when compared to (!) aforementioned larger caliber guns on short ranges, only due to hard knockback with poor stopping power, while maintaining superiority on higher distances with fast moving, high energy bullets that pierce through armor like it's butter.
  • Maybe AKs (Warsaw Pact 7.62x39mm ammo type guns) being a bit stronger while having less accuracy or range than they have without your changes. I felt that they were a bit too equal.
  • 7.62mm NATO guns not ruling the entire game due to their huuuuge range and intense damage only. Dunno if anything will change about range and accuracy, but if it will, heck yeah!
  • --> Therefore the H&K 417 16" not being superior to the 416 20" concerning every single value from range to damage and accuracy. It's an assault rifle on an M16 stock, how super amazing can it be only because it's got bigger rounds?
  • The .50 Beowulf rifle NOT being a sniper rifle. I mean, it shoots a PISTOL round. This has always bothered me since the one thing that the gun has in JA2 is range. While the only thing that this gun actually sports is huge bloody stopping power on short range. Make it a one-shot takedown weapon for CQC and I'll kiss ye feet, mate!
Also, ammo icons are a good thing, I'd even ask for more high resolution ammo pics, however, please, in advance, make sure your pic looks good when it's really small, because the main goal of small icons is to immediately recognize the item you're looking for.

So far, I haven't tested the values or anything and I probably won't until this is some sort of a final version. I'm just lazy as hell, can't find enough time to excessively play the game anyway and I hate upgrading, patching and remembering what version I'm on. And once I'm in a game, I don't want anything to change unless I find something noteworthy that I think has to be changed. Like a bug. I hate bugs. =D

By the way, you said something about blunt trauma. How do your values feel right now? Do high energy impacts deal "blunt" damage despite not penetrating armour? This'd make shotgun type weapons far more useful on close ranges. I doubt it's possible, though. I think JA2 bullet calculations don't accept damage from the blast if the projectile has been entirely absorbed by the vest.

Oh and will changing values make sniper rifle (big ass guns') bullets penetrate targets and walls more often? I just seriously want to use an MG3 to ANNIHILATE an enemy hiding in a small room. From what I've read so far, 7.62x51mm NATO punches through almost 24cm (like 10 inches) of brick wall. I uh... I want that. I really do. Please, give a poor psychopath a chance to destroy virtual people behind virtual walls with a virtual gun while laughing like a maniac. Mum's proud of me. ^^

I heart your mod. Or your project, your oeuvre. Opus! And please, please, please, make it so outrageously overwhelming that it will ultimately get sucked into 1.13's trunk to be there forever.

LootFragg


Edit: Alright, I guess I might have been quite a bit too euphorical about the whole thing. I now doubt penetrating walls will be affected. Still am looking forward to seeing modified gun values with a .50AE actually dealing damage. Oi cheers.

[Updated on: Fri, 28 January 2011 08:49] by Moderator

Re: Automated Specific Ammo Type XML Stat Calculator - Calc Chart[message #271575] Fri, 28 January 2011 13:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Slax

 
Messages:1437
Registered:July 2006
Location: People riding polar bears...
I'm all for reworking the game but this is just crazy. Balance goes right out the window!
Penetration values that cut right through anything and everything, pistols that barely do any damage...
Lots of work to be done, it would seem.

Re: Automated Specific Ammo Type XML Stat Calculator - Calc Chart[message #271742] Sat, 29 January 2011 11:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kellomies

 
Messages:50
Registered:October 2010
LootFragg
Plus I always thought that 9mm slugs could destroy far more tissue than 5.56mm bullets. I know that the latter have triple the kinetic energy, but what good is it for when they just punch right through? I mean they can pierce trees. Why would they get entirely absorbed by a human body without ballistic protection?
Because the human body is largely liquid and the shockwave produced by the bullet does all kinds of nasty things to it; see the concept of hydrostatic shock and related for more. Plus a lot of the "light and fast" rounds are intentionally designed to become unstable in semi-liquid medium like flesh and do unpleasant things like start tumbling...
Also, bustin' bones that get into way.

The ones that tend to zip right through (more or less) are the actual AP rounds, which tend to be mostly or entirely composed of some very hard metal so as to punch through stuff in the way; but then when you need to turn to *those* the target is probably armoured enough that the alternative is pretty much causing bruises tops...
Quote:
Assault rifles were too strong, rifles were superior to submachineguns and you'd only use SMGs if you wanted to stay silent.

...and this is a problem how exactly? Sounds more like very much an accurate enough representation of how it is in reality; the AR was pretty much the death knell of the SMG as a military weapon save for special purposes...Quote:
  • --> Therefore the H&K 417 16" not being superior to the 416 20" concerning every single value from range to damage and accuracy. It's an assault rifle on an M16 stock, how super amazing can it be only because it's got bigger rounds?
:confused:
...I don't really see what the platform has to do with the issue? Full-size rifle rounds beat the intermediates hands down when it comes to reach and power and by extension extended-range accuracy, period. Where they lose out is weight of both the round and the gun, and burst-fire controllability. Remember that the intermediates were developed because the full-sizes were found to be *excessively* powerful for standard infantry use, plus didn't quite play well with the need for a versatile selective-fire weapon the grunts could use equally for firefights at standard engagement distances and CQB in assault situations...
Quote:
  • The .50 Beowulf rifle NOT being a sniper rifle. I mean, it shoots a PISTOL round.
Wait what, how is *that* monster a "pistol round" beyond its .50AE ancestry? Not all that long-ranged by what I know of it though, I'll give you that.
Re: Automated Specific Ammo Type XML Stat Calculator - Calc Chart[message #271863] Mon, 31 January 2011 10:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LootFragg

 
Messages:349
Registered:August 2009
Location: Berlin, Germany
Hi Kellomies!
Kellomies
"light and fast" rounds
Okay, of course, different target "materials". I don't really know how a bullet behaves in human flesh when compared to solid stuff. Only thing I know is that we blew clean holes into a tree trunk (standard 5.56 FMJ), but of course, wood doesn't make the bullet tumble. I didn't imagine them to really slow down THAT much. Thanks.

Kellomies
an accurate enough representation of how it is in reality
I doubt it. Large calibers drop further at high ranges but a submachinegun with stock and good sights is pretty accurate at average combat distance as well, far less of course, but not THAT far. If the aforementioned debate about fast projectiles penetrating through is invalid, the only one big reason I'd deem submachineguns more useful on closer ranges is the low recoil due to using pistol rounds instead of highly energetic rifle rounds.

I also admit I'm trying to balance out the game on an intuitive scale more than actually accepting the superiority of a certain gun type. I mean assault rifles really beat submachineguns in every area once ammo is available. I'd only use small SMGs (large automatic pistols) or backup guns like the P90 for self-defense purposes. Admittedly, most SMGs are mainly used as PDWs. But I'm actually talking about those near rifle-sized SMGs being cheap guns and simple M4 clones being the weapon of choice be it in close quarters, average or large distance. It just feels like I'm supposed to use ARs anyway and use MP5s, combat shottys, sticks and stones as cheap means to keep enemies off my arse until they get available.
To make this clear, I don't want ARs to be weak, which they aren't. In open area fights I want them to kill and maim, but if you're up close with a well-armored adversary, you basically have to auto-fire him until he passes out when using 9mm SMGs, whereas you can use single shots out of your 5.56mm gun to pop his head. SMGs should be somewhat more accurate due to their low knockback to compensate for this. Somehow. And since half a kilojoule of kinetic energy leaves some slight bruises even behind ballistic protection, lots of impacts should cause some damage. Blahblah.

Kellomies
Full-size rifle rounds beat the intermediates hands down
They've got a higher range of course, but a steadier drop as well. Wait, DID range influence accuracy if you don't exceed it? Thought it did, but I might have been misleaded here as well. It's been a while since I read HowDoesItWork. Let's say it FELT like high range guns were more accurate even on distances somewhere inside their max range. Due to their almost linear flight path up to 200m and a bit beyond, 5.56x45mm bullets are said to be more accurate than for example 7.62x51mm, which have a narrower ballistic arc. Plus huge ass recoil this means smaller calibers SHOULD be better unless we're talking about really high ranges. And even then, a shorter barrel usually means less muzzle velocity (unless the powder's critical expansion speed is reached) and smaller guns tend to sway a bit more. You know, if the 20"-barreled .223 gun is supposed to be a DMR, why not take a .308 instead if it is just plain better (except for mag size and ammo weight)? I agree that DAMAGE and PENETRATION should be better and a .223cal DMR should never compete with some Dragunov in long range firefights. But both values and feeling of the guns always taught me that I basically HAVE to use 7.62 guns due to their huge accuracy, range, damage and almost no disadvantages except for good ammo being quite rare. Any range, maybe a backup gun for silenced ops. Too powerful fits it right, I've heard (can't say for myself) that 7.62 NATO rounds were capable of dislocating shoulders if used improperly. They're almost 3 times as powerful as 5.56 NATO rounds thus being far harder to handle. I find it very hard to control a light machine gun even when being prone. It feels just wrong. That's all I'm saying. And it shouldn't.

Kellomies
how is *that* monster a "pistol round"
Alright, that's exaggerated, it's a huge pistol round. But as you say, the pistol bullet isn't really capable of sustaining its flight path on higher distances, no matter how much power you put behind it. And it isn't supposed to as it was developed to fill the margin of an accurate closer combat rifle with both huge penetration and stopping power. The bullet doesn't fly far, accurately, but as long as it does it annihilates everything in its path, wake and line of sight while spitting fire and kicking people in the crotch. You want to take down anything and anybody in one shot (or more if the fellow hides behind something), but both long range combat and beginner friendliness are ignored. It's a hand cannon. So a .50 Beowulf is NOT a pistol round, sorry for being so inaccurate, but it's not a rifle round either as suggested by the game. How much range does it have? 45? 50? Add sights and play sniper.

So, Kellomies, you're absolutely right, I can't deny your arguments, really, but I still don't like the way things are/were (haven't tested it). The range of a gun is (not exclusively) influenced by its mere length, as a rule of thumb and not getting into detail with barrel lengths and calibers. Yes, I wouldn't use a 9x19 to combat somebody hiding 300m away, yes, I know ARs just punch through everything, but the gap feels just far too big. Even the shortest stubby ARs have far superior range only due to the ammo used. It feels so wrong. I'm a crybaby. =D

Cheers, SobFragg.
Re: Automated Specific Ammo Type XML Stat Calculator - Calc Chart[message #271873] Mon, 31 January 2011 13:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3742
Registered:July 2009
LootFragg
Yes, I wouldn't use a 9x19 to combat somebody hiding 300m away, yes, I know ARs just punch through everything, but the gap feels just far too big. Even the shortest stubby ARs have far superior range only due to the ammo used. It feels so wrong. I'm a crybaby. =D

Huh?
The SMGs all range between 16 and 23 (eliminating the odd ones, Magpul PDR with 27 and Spectre with 12). Top: P90 and AUG Para with 23
The Sub-Carbines begin at 23 (on par with the best SMGs) with the SCAR WP CQC, 24 for the AKMSU, 25 for Vikr SR-3 and Micro Galil.

So, I don't see that huge gap, it's a steady transition, just without overlap between SMG and carbine.
It might feel that way though as you are way more often out of range with a gun that doesn't even reach sight range so that 'every tile matters' kicks in. Whereas nobody really cares if a SR has 100 or 110 or an AR hast 40 or 45 if you don't use scopes beyond ACOG.

PS: Values are based on the excel table for rev 1203 on Dieters wiki.


Re: Automated Specific Ammo Type XML Stat Calculator - Calc Chart[message #273368] Fri, 11 February 2011 21:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
MasterN

 
Messages:44
Registered:February 2011
Location: Berlin - Ger
i haven't read all posts, so i won't interrupt ongoing discussions.

just want to say:
MJOne, n1.

as i am a huge supporter for more accurate (towards realism) data, i really appreciate your work.
this is a huge step forward. i hate the genericly applied values.

i am already on the way of changing the values of some weapons to be more accurate.
M82A2 for example, wiki: "Magazine capacity: 10 rounds"(not 11) and so forth ^^

also it isn't a sniper rifle:
thefucklub.wordpress.com/2010/12/09/barrett-m82a2/

[Updated on: Fri, 11 February 2011 22:05] by Moderator

Re: Automated Specific Ammo Type XML Stat Calculator - Calc Chart[message #273629] Tue, 15 February 2011 16:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
MJOne

 
Messages:99
Registered:March 2010
Location: Sweden
Hi everyone!

Sorry for not being here so much lately, woho thanks for all the feedback!


Yeah i will make it bugfree as soon as I got sparetime, I should be able to make it bugfree this weekend.

"...'ll incorporate it into my 113 installer..." <--- WOAW! Smile


I am building a homepage a for company atm, but I should be able to make it work this weekend.

Since I have all the formulas we can always finetune everything, even if it meens alot of work.
Nothing is final, see it as a work in progress.


Have good day everyone!

/MJOne
Re: Automated Specific Ammo Type XML Stat Calculator - Calc Chart[message #275452] Thu, 10 March 2011 03:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
judecca_hel

 
Messages:33
Registered:January 2011
very interesting mod
Re: Automated Specific Ammo Type XML Stat Calculator - Calc Chart[message #275561] Fri, 11 March 2011 20:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wolf00

 
Messages:1148
Registered:September 2006
Location: Czech Republic

still need pasword ...
Re: Automated Specific Ammo Type XML Stat Calculator - Calc Chart[message #275564] Fri, 11 March 2011 21:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
muso_2nd
Messages:1
Registered:December 2010
Location: Germany
@wolf00 Just use the link in the first post and you should be fine. Smile

Does anyone know why NAS doesn't work with this modification? I only get the normal 4 slots after installing it^^
Re: Automated Specific Ammo Type XML Stat Calculator - Calc Chart[message #282057] Fri, 03 June 2011 00:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DangerPumpkin

 
Messages:9
Registered:May 2011
Location: New England
I'm wondering, since you've done so much work with ammunition in game, (great mod by the way, love to see it included as an official 1.13 attachment) if you happen to know anything about how the dart, acidic and/or spit properties in ammotypes.xml work? I'm attempting to tinker with those, but not having much luck. Hope this isn't to far off topic.
Re: Automated Specific Ammo Type XML Stat Calculator - Calc Chart[message #285017] Wed, 29 June 2011 16:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Blue_Fox

 
Messages:548
Registered:September 2006
Location: Netherlands
THis is what i was looking for.
Need to be tuned for the official 1.13 version.
Re: Automated Specific Ammo Type XML Stat Calculator - Calc Chart[message #285019] Wed, 29 June 2011 16:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Off_Topic

 
Messages:1016
Registered:January 2009
Blue_Fox

Need to be tuned for the official 1.13 version.


The spreadsheet MJone made would be pretty useful if there was a development in this area.


Re: Automated Specific Ammo Type XML Stat Calculator - Calc Chart[message #285026] Wed, 29 June 2011 17:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Blue_Fox

 
Messages:548
Registered:September 2006
Location: Netherlands
Yes, i looked at it. Very nice.
Edit: I don't know how to use that (now).

[Updated on: Wed, 29 June 2011 22:48] by Moderator

Re: Automated Specific Ammo Type XML Stat Calculator - Calc Chart[message #285055] Wed, 29 June 2011 21:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
PasHancock

 
Messages:730
Registered:February 2011
Location: Estonia,Tallinn
do i need to start new game if i will install it?
Re: Automated Specific Ammo Type XML Stat Calculator - Calc Chart[message #285056] Wed, 29 June 2011 21:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Off_Topic

 
Messages:1016
Registered:January 2009
Nope.


Re: Automated Specific Ammo Type XML Stat Calculator - Calc Chart[message #285057] Wed, 29 June 2011 21:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
PasHancock

 
Messages:730
Registered:February 2011
Location: Estonia,Tallinn
Wow,thats fast Very Happy
Re: Automated Specific Ammo Type XML Stat Calculator - Calc Chart[message #285059] Wed, 29 June 2011 21:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Off_Topic

 
Messages:1016
Registered:January 2009
I'm messing around with these new starting gears, so i've half an eye on the boards....


Re: Automated Specific Ammo Type XML Stat Calculator - Calc Chart[message #285076] Wed, 29 June 2011 22:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Blue_Fox

 
Messages:548
Registered:September 2006
Location: Netherlands
You cant use all files, it will mess up your weapons.
If we serious gonnna use this chart, maybe need to change the Items.xml?
Do we need that File?

*Edit:

Dont know if its me, but (some) AP/FMJ have Cold Ammo Type

EAT is mixed too.

Example: 5.45x39mm Magazine has Cold AP/FMJ

[Updated on: Wed, 29 June 2011 23:02] by Moderator

Re: Automated Specific Ammo Type XML Stat Calculator - Calc Chart[message #285233] Fri, 01 July 2011 21:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Blue_Fox

 
Messages:548
Registered:September 2006
Location: Netherlands
I compared some values and looked at the JA2 Realistic Caliber Chart.

Im not clear where he get those values.
Example.

FN Oswald - Damage 64
7.62x51 AP Ammo - Armor piercing 5.3 - Bullet Tumble 0.8

I made myself a list of values for ammo
Re: Automated Specific Ammo Type XML Stat Calculator - Calc Chart[message #285251] Fri, 01 July 2011 22:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Blue_Fox

 
Messages:548
Registered:September 2006
Location: Netherlands
Yes, but i not understand how he used those values.
Re: Automated Specific Ammo Type XML Stat Calculator - Calc Chart[message #285257] Fri, 01 July 2011 22:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Blue_Fox

 
Messages:548
Registered:September 2006
Location: Netherlands
Yes i know, have that Spreadsheet.
I try to find a way to make new ammo, without changing weapons damage values.
*Edit
Quote:
Caliber ----- DMG ----- Penetration(Lower=Better) -- Afterarmor DMG (Different in different calibers to simulate caliber and type specific DMG)
9mm FMJ ----- 14 --------- 1,24 ------------------------- 0,78 ---------> 11 (After armor DMG multiplier)
.45 FMJ ------- 15 --------- 1,26 ------------------------- 0,92 ---------> 14 (After armor DMG multiplier)
.357 FMJ ------ 21 --------- 0,96 ------------------------- 0,96 ---------> 21 (After armor DMG multiplier)
5.56 AP -------- 39 --------- 0,24 ------------------------- 0,75 ---------> 30 (After armor DMG multiplier)

He used the gun damage.
***
Example of the 12.7mm
Armour Piercing: 5.5
4
22
Bullet Tumble: 3.1
22
7
Pre-Impact Explosion: 1.1
10
9

Here some values when use the Mulitpier/Divisor: Have till 8.0

0.3 3-1
0.4 26-11
0.5 2-1
0.7 3-2
0.8 4-3
0.9 16-15
1.0 1-1
1.1 12-13
1.2 11-13

[Updated on: Fri, 01 July 2011 23:00] by Moderator

Re: Automated Specific Ammo Type XML Stat Calculator - Calc Chart[message #285274] Fri, 01 July 2011 23:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Blue_Fox

 
Messages:548
Registered:September 2006
Location: Netherlands
Yes, check his Mod.
You cant use it with the new release because of the attachments.
His version weapons had just 4 slots.

Previous post:
Quote:
FN Oswald - Damage 64
7.62x51 AP Ammo - Armor piercing 5.3 - Bullet Tumble 0.8

Next week i start make a new spread sheet with all ammo available, then systematic change those 3 values.

[Updated on: Fri, 01 July 2011 23:40] by Moderator

Re: Automated Specific Ammo Type XML Stat Calculator - Calc Chart[message #285755] Tue, 05 July 2011 20:03 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Blue_Fox

 
Messages:548
Registered:September 2006
Location: Netherlands
And Enemies need to reload their guns.
Like you normaly see with those Kingpin Dudes.
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