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Re: Handgrenades[message #279931] Sat, 14 May 2011 15:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Blue_Fox

 
Messages:548
Registered:September 2006
Location: Netherlands
Grenades for Dummies Very Happy

Perhaps give AI some dummies, fool them.

[Updated on: Sat, 14 May 2011 15:55] by Moderator

Re: Handgrenades[message #279934] Sat, 14 May 2011 16:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
tais

 
Messages:674
Registered:February 2008
Location: NL
now dont go compare the range of grenades and guns again, if we made it realistic and made guns shoot 10x further than now we would have an unplayable game.

If we lower the range of grenades compared to guns we would probably not be throwing further than 4 or 5 tiles, you have to look at the ranges game wise.

If the enemy is throwing grenades at huge distances there's obviously something wrong, but dont go and pull realism into this.


Re: Handgrenades[message #279960] Sun, 15 May 2011 14:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Blue_Fox

 
Messages:548
Registered:September 2006
Location: Netherlands
I think change grenade range to 80%.
Still comfortable using grenades then.
So 10 tiles wil be 8, 20 tiles will be 16.
Re: Handgrenades[message #279963] Sun, 15 May 2011 15:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
easterngames

 
Messages:28
Registered:April 2011
Location: Pennsylvania , USA
I dont see what all the fuss is about. Maybe it seems the AI has an advantage with grenade ranges but a player character that has the skills for grenade throwing can easily send one right back at any enemy ive seen that throws one. The problem comes from people using lame mercs like FLO to try to chuck a grenade against the games soldiers who are argueably professional soldiers.

But even if the AI is throwing them slightly farther, then whats the big deal? The AI honestly needs every edge it can get. When i throw grenades it usually because the AI has so nicelt bunched about 10 gusy into a tiny little area. If you as the living player are bunching up your troops... well i dont know what to tell you.


The game honestly doesnt really need to be made any easier. Until the day that some mad genius finds a way to include cutting edge modern AI into the game, it needs every advantage it can get.

[Updated on: Sun, 15 May 2011 15:56] by Moderator

Re: Handgrenades[message #279964] Sun, 15 May 2011 16:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Buns

 
Messages:662
Registered:September 2010
Tais
now dont go compare the range of grenades and guns again, if we made it realistic and made guns shoot 10x further than now we would have an unplayable game.

If we lower the range of grenades compared to guns we would probably not be throwing further than 4 or 5 tiles, you have to look at the ranges game wise.

If the enemy is throwing grenades at huge distances there's obviously something wrong, but dont go and pull realism into this.
I have never said that grenades should have a realistical range (that indeed would not be more than 5 tiles). Grenades should have a range that makes sense gameplaywise compared to the ranges of other weapons: A handgrenade is a close quarter weapon so its range should be something around that of other close quarter weapons, such as pistols and SMGs. This would lead to a range of about 10 to 20 tiles.

If we make that a maximum range for someone with 100 strength and 100 breath of 20 tiles we would have some average ranges of between 12 to 16 tiles for most characters. That would perfectly fit the ranges of all other weapons as being somewhere between pistol and SMG. I think it is obvious that, and why, handgrenades should not exceed SMGs and most ARs in range.

I don't say that the code that calculates ranges for HGs is broken; as far as I see it the game exactly does what was intended by the code. I would rather suggest to change some numbers here and there because the code causes a mis-balance.

What seems to be broken, on the other hand, is the accuracy part of throwing a handgrenade. As we all know, the AI has the ability to throw with a 100% accuracy by having grenades and breaklights always landing on the spot, regardless of distance. The player in return often comes up with results that are bizzar, such as having a grenade thrown over ten tiles landing more than five tiles away from the targeted tile.

Adding to that other observations, such as it seems that all AI characters have 100 strength when it comes to throwing as well as obstacles don't seem to matter for the AI (I have seen them throwing over houses, others report them throwing inside buildings, while my men even suck when trying to throw over a bush or a sandbag when standing right before the obstacle), it can be possible that the limitations in throwing do not (properly) apply to the AI.

Re: Handgrenades[message #279986] Mon, 16 May 2011 06:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
gas

 
Messages:8
Registered:May 2011
Location: Italy
easterngames

The game honestly doesnt really need to be made any easier. Until the day that some mad genius finds a way to include cutting edge modern AI into the game, it needs every advantage it can get.


Its not a matter of making the game more easy, the fact is if its possible to create a key in the ini like "max_grenade_range" (range 5-30 tiles) personally i think it can satisfy everyone.
Duno if its possible or not tbh and if its something hard to implement in case.
Also there is sure an incredible discrepancy between AI weapon accurancy and the grenade launch one, as the AI seems it sucks at shooting while its uber accurate at throwing.

the game is highly customizable and its the big plus of the mod cause it adds a lot of longevity, but also it means many of us could play more or less a different game.

If you play as your standard/personal taste with imba weapons covering 50+ as range + maybe mortars you prolly will never see this super granade throw issue, if not occasionally on the militia, cause prolly you will rarely see 1 single enemy shooting in this scenario.
But if you like more the cqb as idea, playing with slow weapon choice and very limited bobby ray arsenal you will see that it can be annoying to see a 26 tile grenade manual throw landing also quite perfect when your best weapon cant hit so far.
Today just cause ive read and posted in this thread and i had it in mind i tried to check the tiles after a super throw using the in game cursor and i can say a solider launched a tear gas covering nearly 26 tiles diagonally, after that i saw that a merc with heavy weapon trait using the standard granade launcher (m-76 maybe not sure)could not even cover this distance back, i had the red cross nearly 4 tiles less using the grandade launcher.
So i can surely agree that its an issue someone cant even notice, and that many playstyle may avoid it by default, but its present and if its possible to make it an .ini setting with custom max range and a custom accurancy penalty due to range could really be welecome as idea.

[Updated on: Mon, 16 May 2011 07:00] by Moderator

Re: Handgrenades[message #279991] Mon, 16 May 2011 10:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Deane

 
Messages:62
Registered:January 2010
Some peoples really needs a tutorial to actually read what this thread actually about~
Re: Handgrenades[message #279992] Mon, 16 May 2011 12:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lockie

 
Messages:3832
Registered:February 2006
Location: Scotland
Handgrenades , see ? That was easy ..... Smile


Re: Handgrenades[message #280020] Mon, 16 May 2011 19:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
easterngames

 
Messages:28
Registered:April 2011
Location: Pennsylvania , USA
Yes i have to agree that the handgrenade accuracy is not correct. In all honestly i can not remember the enemy ever missing with a thrown grenade, only them not going off sometimes due to low repair levels.

But i have a sneakeing suspicion this was not an accident or an error and the original programers put it that way on purpose.
Re: Handgrenades[message #280030] Tue, 17 May 2011 00:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Blue_Fox

 
Messages:548
Registered:September 2006
Location: Netherlands
My opinion is that AI grab to fast for a grenade.
Same as stupid HtH/Melee runners Smile

Maybe build in a restriction, only with the Trait Demolition(WF).
Make a buildin change of 10% for throw grenades when not have the Triat.
I was ambushed: got knived, 8 throw grenades and only a few shooting with their guns.

Chitzina:
Fidel(Demolition) hiding behind building throwing grenades (high Angled) ... hmmm is this fun ?
Fidel throw grenade 28 tiles
Btw: Razor throw 21 tiles from the other side.
Haywire & Gasket finish them off.



[Updated on: Tue, 17 May 2011 03:05] by Moderator

Re: Handgrenades[message #280035] Tue, 17 May 2011 06:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
raycrasher

 
Messages:54
Registered:August 2010
Location: Philippines
easterngames
Yes i have to agree that the handgrenade accuracy is not correct. In all honestly i can not remember the enemy ever missing with a thrown grenade, only them not going off sometimes due to low repair levels.


Noticed this as well. During night missions, the enemy will throw break lights and hit my merc, doing 1 damage EVERY SINGLE TIME. Although this only happens if I was careless enough to give away my position through excessive noise. Anyway, about thrown break lights, how in God's name can a break light do some damage when thrown? Especially to a merc in full battle dress?
Re: Handgrenades[message #280135] Wed, 18 May 2011 19:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ctiberious

 
Messages:605
Registered:March 2007
I beleive I've already stated it, but standard grenades DO HAVE a "max range" of 20 tiles assuming max breath and strength. They can bounce further, but their initial landing spot is not supposed to be more then 20 tiles away. Mini grenades, being lighter, have a max of 25 tiles, and break lights (being lighter still) have a max range of 35 tiles. I've tried testing this in my test game and I don't see enemies throwing beyond these ranges. But (and again, I've said this at least once) if you have a savegame that demonstrates an enemy throwing a grenade further, make it available to me and I'll look into it. Short of that, I just don't see an issue.

Re: Handgrenades[message #280241] Fri, 20 May 2011 01:31 Go to previous message
Blue_Fox

 
Messages:548
Registered:September 2006
Location: Netherlands
Quote:
Fragmentation grenade
The fragmentation grenade (commonly known as a frag) is an anti-personnel weapon that is designed to disperse shrapnel upon exploding. The body is made of hard plastic or steel. Flechettes, notched wire, ball bearings or the case itself provide the fragments. When the word grenade is used without specification, and context does not suggest otherwise, it is generally assumed to refer to a fragmentation grenade.

These grenades were sometimes classed as defensive grenades because the effective casualty radius of some matched or exceeded the distance they could be thrown, thus necessitating them being thrown from behind cover. The Mills bomb or F1 grenade are examples of defensive grenades where the 30

[Updated on: Fri, 20 May 2011 01:33] by Moderator

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