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The Shotgun Project[message #301917]
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Sun, 18 March 2012 15:26
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Biernath_J |
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Messages:166
Registered:August 2003 Location: Poland |
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I guess I'm not the only one dissatisfied by the current shotgun implementation in 1.13?
I'll start this topic to centralize the brainstorming that took place in few different threads.
With NCTH, there's one thing done right for the shotguns - buckshot works as it should work, for the first time in JA2 history.
The purpose of firing multiple pellets is to hit things much more often. And it works now, even if your shot is badly placed, the spreading pellets usualy will hit the target.
Unfortunately, they are still very slow to aim and fire, and the ones with folding stocks are just awful.
First, take look at this article: http://www.angelfire.com/tx/ShotGun/TTS.html
It's a very interesting study made by a guy, who owns several shotguns and shoots them for life. He dispells some myths about the shotguns, and criticizes manufacturers, for not improving shotgun design over long, long years.
tl;dr version: shotguns are great but undeveloped platforms with lots of potential, replacing awful stock sights and adding advanced choking system makes them outstanding tactical weapons, not limited to stereotypical 20m range. And pumps are better than semiautos.
What I propose:
- reduce ready times for most shotguns - why are they so slow to raise, when compared to, say, assault rifles?
- rework aim levels/accuracy. Shotties with fixed stock - 3 clicks, folding stock - 4 clicks (3+1 from attachment), no stock - 6. Now, it's the other way around, having a steady support from a stock penaltizes you with 5 or 6 aimclicks, wtf?
he good thing about most shotguns, when compared to pistols or other smaller arms, is the long, fat barrel. While standard bead sights are pretty damn bad (from my experience too) this long barrel makes it really easy to point and shoot 'by the barrel', especially when you have the support of a stock. With a reflex sight, 2 aimclicks should be the perfect way of simulating this.
- rework APs to fire, now it's pretty much a mess. There should be no big difference between semiauto and pump shotguns here. Pumps are a little slower to fire, because you have to, well, pump between the shots. But now, we have huge gaps between some models, like 22 for Jackhammer or Streetsweeper (?!?) and 40+ for Baikal or CAWS, wtf? I think 28-30APs is a good starting point for the revision
- do something with damage. Shotties have good values 'on paper', but they don't work really well in game. Buckshot gives good results because it's easy to hit with it and multiple hits do massive breath damage, but slugs are a joke. It's not uncommon to hit a guy 3 tiles away with a slug to the chest, watch it go right through him and deal 13dmg. There might be some work to do with ammotypes too, but I think increasing damages is a good idea. Playing with customized xmls now, where the author set the shotgun damage to ~70, and it works pretty good. And NOT an overkill, as it might seem from such a high value.
- introduce new attachments - as written in the article above, some match ghostring sights and better, permanent chokes. Those could help the shotguns to stay useful for a long time.
Now, the worst part is that I can't really do anything myself, except maybe some basic XML editing... is anyone interested in doing such a thing? I would playtest it to death, I promise.
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Staff Sergeant
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Re: The Shotgun Project[message #301941]
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Sun, 18 March 2012 19:09
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Scouty |
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Messages:76
Registered:April 2008 |
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I always found it strange that slugs are described as "tears through body armor like tissue paper", while the ammo type is not actually armor-piercing. Shotguns with slugs rely on their high damage score instead.
I agree with the ready cost issue, just a tad high. If shotguns are meant for CQB, why are they so slow to raise?
As for the aim levels, I think NCTH puts way too much emphasis on the amount of aim levels in general. Especially when playing with the "increased aim costs" HAM option on. For regular maximum aim single shots, giving a decent aperture, the difference between 3 and 6 aim levels is immense. Almost to the point where the "AP to fire single" stat is irrelevant.
[Updated on: Mon, 19 March 2012 10:21] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Corporal
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Re: The Shotgun Project[message #301947]
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Sun, 18 March 2012 20:53
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Biernath_J |
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Messages:166
Registered:August 2003 Location: Poland |
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It's true, and to make matters worse, the current implementation of collapsible stocks adds +1 aim level. So some shotguns require 6 clicks (!) to be fully aimed.
The reduction of AP needed to ready a gun is often smaller than this 4AP extra time needed to aim, so collapsible stocks are all about the drawbacks.
Penetration of slugs is something legendary in police forces, those things kill people after punching through the back of the car AND the driver's seat.
I guess there are deforming slugs, something like HP effect too?
It wouldn't hurt to add another shell type, that's the best thing about the shotguns - vast choice of possible loads. So we could have red (ap) slug, blue slug, buckshot, flechette, maybe those fancy explosive slugs too?
Is there a up-to-date weapon table for 1.13 weapons?
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Staff Sergeant
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Re: The Shotgun Project[message #301976]
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Mon, 19 March 2012 16:39
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Ryft |
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Messages:278
Registered:June 2009 |
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That is largely a very good article that was posted. However, I find a couple of his comments on pump action vs. semi automatic to be a bit of a stretch, and there are some inconsistencies with it that are just bugging me.
Quote:To begin with, given a properly trained operator, pump guns are much more reliable than autoloaders. Autoloading designs are better than they used to be, but they still malfunction with much greater frequency than pump guns. Especially in adverse conditions.
Autoloaders are faster than pump guns. But not as much as you might think. With a little training a pump user can keep up quite well. The speed advantage just isn't so great as to make me want to accept the increased malfunction rate of the autoloader as a compromise.
Pump guns are much simpler to operate than autoloaders. It isn't rocket science, but autoloaders are more difficult and demanding to operate. I prefer simplicity myself.
On several of these points, what he's describing is like the difference between a revolver and an autoloading, semi automatic pistol, but he's exaggerating greatly from my perspective.
On his first point, an autoloading pistol or shotgun will definitely malfunction more frequently than their simpler counterparts, especially if mistreated, but what he is implying is that autoloaders are unreliable, and that's simply not true. If such weapons were unreliable, people wouldn't use them, especially when lives were at stake. When in good repair, such devices tend to go "bang" when you pull the trigger.
On his second point, for people with very little or no tactical training, there's a pretty noticeable difference in speed. For people with even some training, there is a noticeable, but fairly negligible difference, which is closer to what he's describing. However, I'm not sure how that's going to factor into a game where a shotgun user can mean the difference between Flo and Gus. And in general, the speed difference is still going to be noticeable unless you're a world class, expert user (of which YouTube videos are very amusing to watch). I guess this point is less a failing of the article, than a question of how we implement it, though he does throw another dig at unreliability in there.
Then, in a portion of the article that I didn't post, he's spot on about specialty ammo as a difference (well, and price, too). I'd be hesitant to expect a ton of reliability out of an autoloader if I was switching rounds with different loads all the time, between regular shotgun rounds, and then stuff like less lethal rounds, or lockbuster rounds, etc. Also not sure how we'd implement this, but he's definitely right.
Back to criticism, though... on his last point, comparing simplicity between pump and semiauto shotguns is like the difference between using a wooden pencil and a mechanical one. If that little of a change in simplicity is meaningful to that guy, I'm a little bit amused.
Also, if what he's arguing for is the continuing evolution of the weapon platform, he seems to miss the irony of preferring simplicity to demanding a more modern loading mechanism. I can't imagine gun designers are going to push shotguns towards a more tactical nature when their users on one hand dismiss a certain kind of site as "antiquated," and then turn their nose at a newer mechanism as "complicated".
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Master Sergeant
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Re: The Shotgun Project[message #301988]
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Mon, 19 March 2012 19:54
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Ryft |
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Messages:278
Registered:June 2009 |
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Biernath_J- pump action ones deal a bit more damage (gamey, but useful for game balance?)
Counterstrike used to use that same logic. Not sure I care for it, honestly. What I *would* like to see are perhaps some alternate weapons, entirely... perhaps a pump action in 10 ga?
I think where you want to go with this is with the reliability part. Early game, when you find pump actions, their increased reliability and ease of repair makes them very useful, when you are often scavenging used weapons in combat, or might not even have a tool kit to repair with. You need to get your team moving towards a target very quickly, to generate some money, and down time to repair weapons is rather precious. This makes simple weapons that don't jam up too frequently or are fast to repair highly desirable.
Sam_HotteBut i do agree that this is not worth any special consideration, IMHO.
And if you wanted to differentiate between loads you could easily give some reliability penalty to the particular ammo type.
Agreed on the first part... too small a game difference to really make an impact. Reliability on ammo isn't really a solution anyway, because these ammunition types would need to be cross compatible between pump and semi shotguns.
HazmatThe AP cost are the biggest issue imho.
There is no sense in using shottys now, because the best you can expect is to raise the gun and to fire a pretty wild shot.
On the next turn things look different but an AR is just better, more range, faster fire bigger chance to kill with a burst.
I really liked HAM5
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Master Sergeant
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Re: The Shotgun Project[message #301993]
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Mon, 19 March 2012 20:19
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Biernath_J |
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Messages:166
Registered:August 2003 Location: Poland |
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v4968 (and few older version) already treated buckshot volleys as 9 shot autofire for the purposes of suppression, that's my experience anyway.
In my current game, I've seen that effect a lot in early game, pinning enemies left and right.
About increased damage for pump shotguns, I was thinking something about extra 5 points of damage (some pressure is used for the gun cycling, instead of pushing the bullets) - not really noticable in the game, but someone could prefer that. It's not a big deal, I could live without it. Reliability and ease of repair should give pumps enough edge to compete.
I'm using customized XMLs for my game, those: http://www.ja-galaxy-forum.com/board/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=301651#Post301651
They upped shotgun damage to 75 something and gave them more accuracy.
Early game is hilarious, with people exploding when hit with buckshot, but later, it becomes much more balanced. When enemies begin wearing armor, buckshot rarely scores one shot kills, but it's a damn good manstopper. Nobody survives the second shot - with all armor protection, they would just go down for several turns, badly wounded. Fully upgraded CAWS is a beast, those elites with EXCELLENT condition and full dyneema armor just die, as they should. Headshots are very, very nasty, and legshots are very useful for midgame, when enemies wear vests and helmets, but not leggins.
I think it's a good starting point. It looks scary (70dmg, wtf!) but works well in-game.
Slugs still suck, only headshots are really effective with them. There has to be some changing to slug ammotype.
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Staff Sergeant
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Re: The Shotgun Project[message #302060]
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Tue, 20 March 2012 19:34
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Biernath_J |
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Messages:166
Registered:August 2003 Location: Poland |
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I guess I did study the topic enough to begin with some draft shotgun stats. Starting with lowest coolness.
The format I'll be using is:
NAME OF THE GUN
Action Point costs: (raise) single/burst/auto (reload)
Damage/Range
Reliability/Repair Ease
Aimclicks/Accuracy
I'm not touching OCTH values at all.
It would be the best if every draft I post would be commented to death before going to the next one, so please, bash the hell out of it and let's work something out of it.
#1
SAWED-OFF SHOTGUN
AP: (2) 20/-/25 (15)
DMG/RNG: 50/5
REL/REP: 0/3
AIM/ACC 1/5
A 'desperation gun', when you really need to put down this guy charging you with a machette, and you're not sure your single 9mm round would do the trick. No use in real combat (except for suppression factor).
For 25APs an option to fire both barrels at the same time.
The extremally low range of this scattergun needs an ammo edit for 2-shell lockbuster clip - change it to -4 range instead of -8.
In my opinion, it should take no attachments at all, because there's no way to mount anything on this thing. It only allows 1 aimclick, because there's nothing you can actually do with this one, besides aiming at a general direction, it doesn't really have (or need) any sights.
Not sure about the reliability, it's a very simple design, but the sawed off barrels might not be so friendly and cooperating all the time, maybe lower the value?
This should make it an useful gun, but really, really limited one. As it should be, because, seriously, it's not a gun to bring into a firefight. It's a matter of style to mow people with it Should make a decent lockpick and maybe help stealing stuff.
[Updated on: Tue, 20 March 2012 19:36] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Staff Sergeant
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Re: The Shotgun Project[message #302138]
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Wed, 21 March 2012 15:49
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Biernath_J |
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Messages:166
Registered:August 2003 Location: Poland |
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#2
SERBU SUPER-SHORTY
AP: (3) 25/-/- (30)
DMG/RNG: 50/9
REL/REP: 1/1
AIM/ACC: 2/7
Another 'toy' on the battlefield, not a serious weapon. It does some things better than sawed-off, but remains in the same class, as a desperation/style gun.
The built-in foregrip should be seriously considered, when making changes to this weapon:
1. two handed weapon, definitely! That foregrip is a serious help for the bad recoil of this one
2. less AP for pumping - 6AP would be my choice
3. foregrip provides better handling & accuracy
The increased repair/reliability comes from the fact, that those guns are made from Remington and Mossberg shotguns, which are famous for reliability.
As for the attachments - it has a single sidemount option. Scopes are useless with this one, I guess only 1 slot for laser. No chokes, duckbills and other madness.
I would reduce the price to 700-800 bucks and set it to minimum coolness, just as the sawed-off.
Both of those pocket cannons would benefit from a large holster rig that would carry some ammo too. Right now, those two babies have to be carried in the combat pack - no style at all!
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Staff Sergeant
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Re: The Shotgun Project[message #302384]
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Sun, 25 March 2012 21:18
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Biernath_J |
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Messages:166
Registered:August 2003 Location: Poland |
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#3
BAIKAL MP-133
AP: (14)28/-/-
DMG/RNG: 65/16
REL/REP: 2/2
AIM/ACC: 3/20
First of the 'serious' shotguns to discuss.
Built to last, it's not compact nor light, I'd go with 14APs to raise. Long barrel should explain dmg/rng/aim/acc values. Acc could be higher, but mp-133 comes with standard bead sights, which are crap.
Baikal shotguns have great reputation for quality and rugedness.
Since it comes with bullt-in interchangable choking system, the standard spreadpattern should be imp.mod with the possibility to attach full choke and possibly a duckbill.
It should be much cheaper than its main competitor - Remington 870
The real drawback of this one is 4 round magazine.
This should be a coolness 1 weapon, just as the two I posted earlier.
[edit]nvm, in-game picture shows that it has magazine extension, so it's 7 rounds, not 4
[Updated on: Sun, 25 March 2012 21:38] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Staff Sergeant
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Re: The Shotgun Project[message #302424]
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Mon, 26 March 2012 14:01
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Martin Neumann |
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Messages:6
Registered:February 2012 |
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One big problem I see with Shotguns and NCTH is that for Bugshot u wanna have a low accuracy gun (effectively increasing the chance to hit) while for Slugs u wanna have higher accuracy.
Shotguns don't have a rifled Barrel, and therefore are not very accurate despite their barrel length. (20 is way to much in my opinion, especially since its bad for firing bugshot)
As a simple fix I would add an accuracy bonus to Slugs (Similar as Match ammunition has). Slugs are self stabilizing projectiles (they have to due to the lag of rifling) so you can fire them with high accuracy.
As for the Difference between Automatic and Pumpaction:
A skilled shooter might be able to get close to the speed of the automatic. If I give it e.g. to Ira she is definitely not a skilled shooter.
I would keep the distance between automatic and pump-actions slightly bigger. If you use the new Skill system the Hunter gets a pump-bonus for pump-action making him kind of a shot-gun expert.
A cool feature would be if dual magazine could be somehow implemented.
Guns like the Neosted have 2 magazines (size 6 each) you can switch between the magazines instantly allowing to load e.g. bug-shot and slugs.
Maybe this can be done similar to the genade/assault rifles.
[Updated on: Mon, 26 March 2012 14:15] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Private
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Re: The Shotgun Project[message #302440]
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Mon, 26 March 2012 22:48
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Martin Neumann |
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Messages:6
Registered:February 2012 |
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I assumed accuracy was the accuracy value in NCTH. If its something else please explain.
Still think adding bonus accuracy to slugs is the way to go. Other ammo types have it so why not give to Slugs. Would work similar to how the behavior would be in real live and fits well with the game mechanics.
[Updated on: Tue, 27 March 2012 01:31] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Private
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Re: The Shotgun Project[message #302473]
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Tue, 27 March 2012 09:18
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Martin Neumann |
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Messages:6
Registered:February 2012 |
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Have u checked the internal mechanics of NCTH?
Handling (together with other factors like scope but NOT accuracy) influence the aiming, while accuracy is used to see if the fired bullet actually goes where its aimed. The worst gun ever for short ranges would be high handling and high a accuracy. (e.g. a Sniper Rifle or a shotgun with handling ~20 and accuracy ~60) Its much harder to aim especially for inexperienced Mercs, and if ure aim is off u miss for shure since gun inaccuracy can not give u a lucky shot. (especially true for bug-shot, burst and auto-fire) Try it in the game, and you see what I mean. I recommend putting values to extreme so u really see the difference.
If u wanna simulate different scopes u should modify the aiming part (handling or scope) of the process not the accuracy. I think I have seen a field in weapon.xml to give a bonus to base-cth (aiming related) changing that would be an option as well.
This way the weapon would be more interesting for support Mercs with low stats. Also it be more realistic, shotguns are NOT very accurate -> see the article u linked.
[Updated on: Tue, 27 March 2012 09:23] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Private
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