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What should the AI consider?[message #303650] Fri, 20 April 2012 00:41 Go to next message
Faithless

 
Messages:442
Registered:October 2009
Location: The safe end of the barre...
So basically I'm working on a little thing called the AI.

What I'm planning to do:

I'm going to make a function that guesstimates how good the situation would be after doing a proposed action.
So when trying to determine whether we're going to do an action, we choose the one that gives us the highest "situational value".

example:
value = cover * coverWeight + estimatedDamageOnEnemy * dmgWeight + abilityToHitAnEnemy * hitEnemyWeight

action1 is to go towards the enemy, where our cover will be less, but we will have a better chance of hitting the enemy.
action2 is to shoot at an enemy, with little chance of hitting him.

Now lets say seeking cover is very important to this soldier, which would be reflected in the weights:
coverWeight = 2, abilityToHitAnEnemy = 1, hitEnemyWeight = 1
In that case action 1 will get a low value because it has bad cover.
action1 value = 10 * 2 + 0 * 1 + 60 * 1 = 80
action2 value = 30 * 2 + 10 * 1 + 30 * 1 = 100

This might result in the AI controlled soldier shooting (action2), even though the estimated damage is low, simply because his cover will be better in the end.
This way we have an way of judging every action by the same standards, thus making our choice well founded.

--------------------------------------------------------------

This next bit is where you guys come in:
I'm making a list of all the things the AI should consider, and this thread is basically your chance to propose new factors that should play a role.

This is what I have so far (though I'm not yet sure if all of these are currently possible).

Things that affect the value directly:
  • Will I be following my orders?
  • Will I be getting closer to somewhere I want to go?
  • How well can I be seen by known enemies on the new position?
  • How easily can known enemies hit me?
  • How good are my chances of hitting an enemy from my new position?
  • What is the estimated damage this action will do?
  • How much damage will this action do to me? (Firing an RPG at someone one square away?)
  • How high will my breath be?
  • How many enemies will I be spotting?
  • How much ammo will I have?
  • Am i blocking my mates shots? (maybe)
  • Am i moving to somewhere with alot of bodies?
  • Will this action bring me too close to a friend?
  • Will the new position harm me? (gas, fire)
  • Will the new position hinder my movement(water)?
  • Will I have enough AP left for another useful action?
  • How big an area will I be able to see?
  • Are there any expanding effects near me? (smoke, gas)

Things that affect weights (the importance of the things in the previous list):
  • Morale
  • AI Type (coward, brave, idiot, sniper or combination of things)
  • How strong we are compared to the enemy
  • Soldier stats
  • Alert Status
  • Traits
  • Weapon range vs enemy range
  • Weapon Damage potential vs enemy potential

So, go ahead and propose some genius things.

[Updated on: Fri, 20 April 2012 18:06] by Moderator

Re: What should the AI consider?[message #303653] Fri, 20 April 2012 01:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
H_412

 
Messages:27
Registered:October 2009
Maybe this factors into cover but could it check if there is a clump of soldiers in one spot and try and spread out a little? Particularly grenadiers or anyone carrying a big explosive.
Also related to cover, could the AI think of locations to break line of sight to escape large volumes of fire? Maybe a check on how many soldiers have been killed in the surrounding area and if they have seen the shooter or not.
Any of these feasible?
Re: What should the AI consider?[message #303654] Fri, 20 April 2012 01:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Faithless

 
Messages:442
Registered:October 2009
Location: The safe end of the barre...
the first two are done implicitly in cover, but i'll name them here separately.
Dead bodies check is a good addition.

[Updated on: Fri, 20 April 2012 01:18] by Moderator

Re: What should the AI consider?[message #303657] Fri, 20 April 2012 01:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Flugente

 
Messages:3494
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
Nice on, I'd be awesome if you can tweak the AI.

First of all, hermano had some ideas to counter the retarded AI behaviour in light, see this thread for that: http://www.ja-galaxy-forum.com/board/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=302886&#Post302886

He produced some code, I haven't seen at it, though.

Now, my input, in a more or less ordered form. I'll just list things you haven't mentioned.

Things that should influence the value:
  • Am I in gas/water (this is done in the current AI and its important)?
  • Are there dead buddies lying around? (Running through a door where there are 20 bodies lying around might indicate that we should take a different approach).
  • A kind of 'apprehension' of the players approach. Would propably be hard to do right. An easy way to do this would be to evaluate the current players style and draw deductions from it. One would simply have to further expand the kill statistics (kills by melee/explosives/guns/other etc.) to, perhaps, gun types (like snipe, MG...).
    If that is done, the AI could react accordingly. E.g. if the player team is sniper-heavy, put more emphasis on smoke grenade use over long range, a lot of flanking, and scope more if scopes are equipped (counter-sniper).
    If the player uses explosives a lot, spread more, thereby try to avoid other buddies.
  • Can I go into cover after my planned action?
  • Would I get out of the players firing cone if I moved, forcing the player to spend APs on turning? The more important the more the player uses the prone position...
  • is it day/night ?

Things that affect weights:
  • traits
  • current health?
  • current APs
  • have we heard something that might indicate mercs we do not yet know about?

Overall, a very big improvement would be a somewhat sophisticated memory for soldiers. Atm, they don't really have one, making their actions erratic. Actions like retreating into a building and then taking cover and a firing a position towards the door would increase the difficulty.

Another (minor) idea: put more emphasis on hurting the player instead of outright killing him. If given the choice between surely wounding the player or a very small chance of killing him, choose the safe option. The player has a very limited pool of troops, thereby he has to be much more careful... a highly wounded merc is effectively out of combat for at least several hours, perhaps even days.

Currently not possible, but perhaps worth a thought: skip our turn until later in our teams turn. I've too often seen nearby enemies run forward, almost reaching me, and with that they blocked their comrades view. Something like enemies that have a good firing position having their turn first would be good.

ULTRA-ULTRA-mean, and effective in ruining the players campaign:: shoot every head miner we see Very Happy


Re: What should the AI consider?[message #303658] Fri, 20 April 2012 02:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Faithless

 
Messages:442
Registered:October 2009
Location: The safe end of the barre...
Hey flug, the light wont be a problem, since light at night results in terrible, horrible, abysmal cover. And cover will now ALWAYS be considered (as opposed to just when seeking cover, atm).

Also, this is only part of the grand (and perhaps too ambitious) plan, so some of the things you said are covered elsewhere.

Two examples:
Persistent memory, the soldier will have a personal plan of what to do (though I am unsure how, as of now).
A commander will give orders, and he will determine the strategy (but soldiers may disobey these orders).

However this made me think of something else: it's important for the enemy to take in account how many tiles he can see (eg, more on the border of a light source).
This way we may be able to get them to camp at the edge of a light source!

Getting out of the players firing arc would be a bit iffy, I think. It will cost you more AP than him.
Also this is unrealistic behavior, which I would not like to encourage.

The current APs and noises are not supposed to affect the weight, because they aren't really linked to any of the factors that determine the situational value directly.



[Updated on: Fri, 20 April 2012 02:21] by Moderator

Re: What should the AI consider?[message #303664] Fri, 20 April 2012 06:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
tazpn

 
Messages:99
Registered:December 2007
Location: CA, USA
I love some of the suggestions particularly factoring number of dead bodies. Also ensuring they have an enough AP to make another action or interrupt an action. Too many rush into death trap or funnels and run out of AP while doing so.

Will the path to my new position harm me? Unless this is implicit as you consider each square separately along the path.
Re: What should the AI consider?[message #303667] Fri, 20 April 2012 08:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
TClaymore

 
Messages:35
Registered:July 2011
Hmm...what about coordination? Would it be feasible to have soldiers also consider the potential damage other soldiers can do to mercenaries, and take actions that help maximize this if they're not in a better position to do it themselves (for example, a machine gunner laying down suppression fire to cover an ally's flanking action), or is it already being considered?
Re: What should the AI consider?[message #303670] Fri, 20 April 2012 09:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dansken

 
Messages:87
Registered:March 2007
Location: Norway
"How big an area will I be able to see?" could be supplemented by:
"How big an area will my team be able to see?"

Increasing the teams total coverage has some value, making it easier to spot the enemy.

However, this suggestion and TClaymore's suggestion of coordination may be a better fit for the commander AI.
Re: What should the AI consider?[message #303672] Fri, 20 April 2012 10:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Headhunter

 
Messages:265
Registered:November 2009
Location: Sweden
This is more related to Strategic than Tactical, and I'm not sure whether it's an AI-issue, but if more than one squad is set to attack a liberated sector, the first squad should wait for the second and attack simultaneously.
Re: What should the AI consider?[message #303677] Fri, 20 April 2012 14:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
PasHancock

 
Messages:730
Registered:February 2011
Location: Estonia,Tallinn
I suggest:

Will i be vulnerable to grenades/mortars if i go to this place?
Am i open for snipers(can sniper see me)?
Is my teammate near me to support me?
Will i be able to find cover in case of suppression/enemy attack?
Will i be able to throw a grenade?
Should i help my teammate(s),stay at this place or should i retreat?
Should i change my weapon to Secondary in case my Primary weapon will be out of ammo,so i could save some AP to shoot with Secondary weapon?
(if sniper)I my position was revealed,should i change my Sniping point or continue sniping?
If enemy unconscious/in pre-dead state,should i change my target?


Things that affect weights:

Merc's weapon compared with soldiers
Armour
health

i hope this is right.

also,i have a question for you WarmSteel.
Are you going to add "Medical/Bandaging" for AI?
Will you make bombardiering possible?
Can you make AI crawl?

Thats all Smile
Re: What should the AI consider?[message #303681] Fri, 20 April 2012 15:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
TClaymore

 
Messages:35
Registered:July 2011
...I'm hoping the AI revamp would keep throwing knives valuable, though. I love those things.
Re: What should the AI consider?[message #303683] Fri, 20 April 2012 15:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3742
Registered:July 2009
Maybe for taking out a lone guard to set up in an advantageous position, but those kill whole sector one by one actions should become next to impossible.

Not exactly related to the situation value, but worth keeping in mind in the long run:
Have everyone report in periodically. One dude misses his call = go to next alert state, two or more missing their call = sweep their last position with a tight search pattern, forcing the player to either stand and deal with overwhelming numbers of enemies at once or retreat.


Re: What should the AI consider?[message #303684] Fri, 20 April 2012 15:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
TClaymore

 
Messages:35
Registered:July 2011
Awww. Welp, was fun to do while it lasted. Then again, digging in and unleashing lead hell on 15 guards is fun too.
Re: What should the AI consider?[message #303685] Fri, 20 April 2012 18:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Faithless

 
Messages:442
Registered:October 2009
Location: The safe end of the barre...
Quote:
Will the path to my new position harm me? Unless this is implicit as you consider each square separately along the path.

I would like to do this, but I'm not sure if it's possible without putting a heavy load on the CPU.

Quote:
This is more related to Strategic than Tactical, and I'm not sure whether it's an AI-issue, but if more than one squad is set to attack a liberated sector, the first squad should wait for the second and attack simultaneously.

Yup, outside my scope.

@PasHancock
Most of what you named are actions, not things that affect our situation.
Added the weapons for weights.

For your questions, no bandaging, no bombarding and I will probably make the enemy crouch when needed.

Quote:
Have everyone report in periodically. One dude misses his call = go to next alert state, two or more missing their call = sweep their last position with a tight search pattern, forcing the player to either stand and deal with overwhelming numbers of enemies at once or retreat.

Sounds nice, but also sounds like alot of work Razz

Also, I will not force a soldier to do any actions that don't make sense, if throwing a knife makes sense for him, then he will throw, otherwise, he will not.
Re: What should the AI consider?[message #303686] Fri, 20 April 2012 18:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
TClaymore

 
Messages:35
Registered:July 2011
Sounds good, but not my exact concern. What I was more worried about is that the improved AI would render sneaking through a sector with throwing knives completely impossible. I figure that ninja'ing through a sector and killing guards with throwing knives should still be possible, provided you're quick enough to ambush everyone in between their check-in periods (possibly have certain squads - like indoors, for example - isolated from other squads communication-wise?).

Barring that, I definitely don't mind throwing knives being nerfed by the AI too much. They could still be used to silently secure a foothold so your team can bring their other weapons to the fore when the alert comes, from what I see, and that's cool too.
Re: What should the AI consider?[message #303687] Fri, 20 April 2012 18:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Faithless

 
Messages:442
Registered:October 2009
Location: The safe end of the barre...
I don't think much will change, so long as they don't know where you are. Don't give them a reason to point their gun at you, and you can do all you want.

I will not implement xray vision or radar for the AI, simply cause I hate it when a game does that (bunch of lazy cheaters Sad ).
Re: What should the AI consider?[message #303693] Fri, 20 April 2012 19:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
TClaymore

 
Messages:35
Registered:July 2011
Yeah, that would feel like kind of a cheat. Thanks for the info, though!
Re: What should the AI consider?[message #303696] Fri, 20 April 2012 21:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Flugente

 
Messages:3494
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
short info: concerning bandaging: there already IS an AI-action that governs bandaging. Basically, If the AI decides it doesn't have anything better to do at all, it can reduce its bleeding. As this is done in DecideAction, in the routines that should govern the decision process and nothing else, this smells a lot like a fast hack by the devs.


Re: What should the AI consider?[message #303697] Fri, 20 April 2012 22:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Faithless

 
Messages:442
Registered:October 2009
Location: The safe end of the barre...
It's full of fast hacks.
Theres quest stuff being done in decideAction Sad
Re: What should the AI consider?[message #303704] Sat, 21 April 2012 04:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
usrbid

 
Messages:1536
Registered:December 2008
SMP has a tiny little bit on AI, you can find it here. (Admittedly not very useful in this context, but something to consider.)


Re: What should the AI consider?[message #303717] Sat, 21 April 2012 14:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dinglehopper

 
Messages:134
Registered:January 2008
Is going back and forth between that spot and this spot really a good plan?
Re: What should the AI consider?[message #303721] Sat, 21 April 2012 15:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
WaBlackHat

 
Messages:43
Registered:April 2012
dinglehopper
Is going back and forth between that spot and this spot really a good plan?


LOL, yeah I see that alot. Enemies and Militia bouncing back and forth between 2 or 3 squares their whole turn.
Re: What should the AI consider?[message #303925] Thu, 26 April 2012 05:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mattyc4

Messages:2
Registered:April 2012
Location: England
might aswell make the AI more intelligent so there more difficult. then it will be impossable to play.

I have a few times fired a mustard gas mortar shell and enemys run into the gas and ether stand there and die or retreat and continue searching. does this happen on anyone elses game.
Re: What should the AI consider?[message #304770] Wed, 16 May 2012 08:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
PasHancock

 
Messages:730
Registered:February 2011
Location: Estonia,Tallinn
any news?
Re: What should the AI consider?[message #304854] Wed, 16 May 2012 20:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Faithless

 
Messages:442
Registered:October 2009
Location: The safe end of the barre...
Well progress is slow, because I don't have much free time on my hands (and choose to spend most of it elsewhere Smile )

I've decided though that the situational happiness of a soldier will *not* be affected by any other of the soldiers.
Every soldier will only consider its own situation to decide it's "happiness" (including stuff like cover from enemy x).
To make a decision, the soldier will pick an action that creates a balance between the highest happiness score for his team and the lowest score for the enemy team.

This changes the list somewhat, since some of the items will be magically calculated in automatically.
The weights will still remain.

I will probably change the list a bit when i get around to it.

The items in it will be more along the line of the following (already implemented these, in fact).

After doing this action:
How high is my HP?
How high is my BP?
How high is my physical cover? (Chance to get through in the code)
How high is my visual cover? (Not really used by the old AI)

One problem that I have is that nearly every quest will be broken.
All quests will have to be adapted to the new AI, because part of the goal is to centralize decision making for quests.
Another problem is that because I'm modifying saved map data, I have to somehow fix old maps to still work.

EDIT:
Also, about externalizing the AI as a module, I will be making it easier to do this, but I will not actually do it.

[Updated on: Wed, 16 May 2012 20:56] by Moderator

Re: What should the AI consider?[message #305430] Thu, 31 May 2012 21:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Headhunter

 
Messages:265
Registered:November 2009
Location: Sweden
I've thought of two things worth considering.

1) AI should ignore "Dying" enemies.

2) AI should refrain from firing if there's ally in their line of fire.


What do you think?
Re: What should the AI consider?[message #305432] Thu, 31 May 2012 21:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
PasHancock

 
Messages:730
Registered:February 2011
Location: Estonia,Tallinn
Headhunter

1) AI should ignore "Dying" enemies.

2) AI should refrain from firing if there's ally in their line of fire.


1)i agree,because sometimes Soldiers waste many turns to hit my dying merc,

2)if his ally in same Position with,then yes,if one is standing and other sits or in prone,then no
Re: What should the AI consider?[message #305435] Thu, 31 May 2012 22:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Slax

 
Messages:1437
Registered:July 2006
Location: People riding polar bears...
1) A chance for AI personalities, maybe? Vindictive bastards will try to get a few punches in on a disabled merc. Wink Should be situational, at least.

2)Again, personalities! Something for the story tellers out there. Very Happy
Or not. Should be an experience level and morale thing. A rookie might panic and empty his magazine no matter what while an elite would maneuver in some way.

Re: What should the AI consider?[message #305637] Wed, 06 June 2012 08:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
fnulp

Messages:2
Registered:February 2012
WarmSteel

Things that affect the value directly:
  • How many enemies will I be spotting?
  • How much ammo will I have?
  • Am i blocking my mates shots? (maybe)
  • Am i moving to somewhere with alot of bodies?
  • Will this action bring me too close to a friend?
  • Will the new position harm me? (gas, fire)
  • Will the new position hinder my movement(water)?
  • Will I have enough AP left for another useful action?
  • How big an area will I be able to see?
  • Are there any expanding effects near me? (smoke, gas)


Some of that seems a bit too micro-managed? Maybe step back and see if you can't find more general algorithms and data structures that solves these and other issues in a more general way.

Whatever you do, consider that if the "shuffling back and forth" doesn't get fixed (the AI seems to forget about mercs during the turn, I think that's pretty much what makes it oscillate), any improvement to the AI would be polishing a turd. Even random bevaviour -- that is often dumb, but sometimes gets lucky and seems smart -- is better than predictable "when X, then Y" behaviour that can be easily abused.

Sometimes less is more..

For example, every merc could add to the "threat" value of tiles (that is, you'll want to use separate arrays for that) in their line of sight, even more so in their weapon range (use a generalized weapon range though, otherwise the AI could be fooled too easily by running with knives and shooting with guns). Just add stuff like water or gas to that threat value as well (make it such a high value that the situation has to be *really* bad to choose running through gas, but not too high so it can happen), instead of dealing with all that individually.

At the same time, tiles covered by teammates might have a separate "support" value... subtract threat from support, ta-da, you know wether the area is clear and how much so, and can use this as a weight for other decisions (of course I'm being simplicistic, but maybe it gave you an idea anyway).

It might make great things possible if you calculated, for each tile under consideration, how many tiles the one can see from there, and how many of those have mercs on or near them; giving an even higher score for tiles in weapon range (of the enemy who is currently deciding), lowering the score if there is cover between the enemy and the tile. If you found smart ways of caching and recalculating that data, it could even be feasible, it surely would make a lot of decisions much easer and less "special-case-y". Just find the spot that gives you maximum bang for your buck (which would be AP) with the least threat to yourself.. is very simple math once you set up those 2-3 arrays and keep them up to date.. Try to avoid special cases, turn them into general cases when possible.

And "how much ammo will I have" is irrelevant.. if you have ammo and the shot is worth taking, take the shot, THEN realize you're out of ammo and run away/find ammo. Don't think too far ahead (but also remember things you already tried and don't try them again in the same turn, that would fix so much).

[Updated on: Wed, 06 June 2012 08:38] by Moderator

Re: What should the AI consider?[message #305739] Fri, 08 June 2012 15:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JohnnySideburns

 
Messages:19
Registered:September 2007
how about:

Am I attacking or defending?
Am I clumping up with my friends unnescssarily?
Should I try to flank instead of engaging directly?
Are enough of my friends actively engaged for me/us to flank?
Am I being assertive enough? Do I follow thorough with my plan! instead of changing my mind?
Should I advance, retreat or hold my position?
Am I doing this alone?
Am I Elite, Regular or Weeny?
Will every guy I hate back home nail my hot wife because I left her a widow?

perhaps some way of making group decisions, so they will work with some sort of unity?

Re: What should the AI consider?[message #305907] Wed, 13 June 2012 09:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JohnnySideburns

 
Messages:19
Registered:September 2007
Am I getting in my mates line of fire?
if I shoot now is there a chance I'll unload into the back of one of my friends?
are we winning or losing?
should we make a coordinated retreat, and try again another time/ somewhere else?
where are the lines?
Re: What should the AI consider?[message #305960] Thu, 14 June 2012 23:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
afftor

 
Messages:13
Registered:October 2009
I imagine if this ever gonna be released, it gonna be much buggier than NCTH, new interrupt and overheating combined with unofficial release on WF maps. I do want better AI tho, since most ranged fights looks plainly same slaughter even when there's more than 30 enemies.
Re: What should the AI consider?[message #306084] Sun, 17 June 2012 19:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Taro_M

 
Messages:294
Registered:November 2008
It should be noted that modern military employs "Buddy System". In your team you have your buddy whom you cooperate and cover and he does same for you.

I think that more elite enemies should operate in teams of 2 at very least. Providing bouding overwatch, supporting each other etc. So AI should consider:

*Will I be able to support my buddy?
*Am I too far from my buddy?
*Is my buddy hurt/under heavy fire?

Im not saying all enemies should be like that. However limiting Rambo's running alone, straight under your sights.
Re: What should the AI consider?[message #306223] Wed, 20 June 2012 21:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Deane

 
Messages:62
Registered:January 2010
If you can, sort of, introduced a short term memory for each agents, say, for a couple of rounds, that would be very helpful in making a strong AI.
Re: What should the AI consider?[message #309055] Tue, 14 August 2012 12:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Saibot

 
Messages:201
Registered:September 2009
Definitely second putting the AI on a buddy system, at least with the elites. They should be leapfrogging and covering each other's approach, recognizing player tactics and adjusting, etc. Anything to differentiate them from redshirts besides just better gear and stats.
Re: What should the AI consider?[message #311839] Tue, 06 November 2012 20:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RasterOps

 
Messages:50
Registered:July 2004
Location: Tempe, Az. USA
They should consider staying in cover rather than being required to expend all APs to end their turn.
If CTH is low or zero, how about going prone and advancing rather than running in circles and never firing. Or maybe fleeing or running away to better flank.
  • Yes again, memory or lack thereof. The AI should stack or remember its actions. Let's say the AI retreats to cover or for some other reason/action. It needs to remember why it did this lest, the AI says "Hey, an enemy is over there. I'm going that way.", repeating its previously ineffective mistake.
  • Do I have any greandes?
  • Am I within grenade range?
  • Are there multiple enemies in range?
  • Yes a repeat. Am I clumping? Adding body count to a vulnerable position. If there are already a number of friends where I want to go then maybe I should go somewhere else.
  • Am I the only one left??? It's time to get outta here!
  • Am I a spotter but not in good cover? I should move to better cover and/or perhaps go prone.
  • Am I a spotter in good cover and prone? Did going prone cause me to lose sight of my enemies? If so, kneel.
  • Am I a spotter and in good cover? I shouldn't reveal my position. Wait for all others to end their turn and re-evaluate my actions, perhaps even skipping my turn.
  • Do I have a scoped weapon? Stop rushing and use my scope (not my body) to spot my enemies.
Re: What should the AI consider?[message #312583] Wed, 28 November 2012 14:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
krux

 
Messages:62
Registered:June 2011
I think people are getting into too small details IMHO. Most important should be to restore some parts of the AI that has been weakened during 1.13 development.

I remember the AI being more agressive, which is something many seem to agree with. A passive enemy will never be a challenge for the player, their only bet is to use their numbers to mob you. Story wise it would make sense with more suicidal enemies as they would probably fear being put infront of a firing squad accused of cowardice, more than they would fear our mercs.

A wild guess about the cause of the "running back and forth-problem" is that offensive and defensive actions is considered of equal value by the AI in too many cases. If these values was more biased towards the extremes, so the AI more often decides to either be really offensive or really defensive, not both on the same time.

If the AI had a commander (in the sense the player is the commander for the mercs) who decides a common strategy for all the soldiers, you wouldn't find situations where it feels like each enemy is running his own race (like one is retreating, while another is attacking). Of course individual morale/status of each soldier should be considered but on the whole there should be a more defined strategy. You would probably not notice that each soldier lacks memory or a plan if this was more defined.

The hardest part to get right would probably be those cases where you'd want the AI to NOT attack but neither do a full retreat. Like enemies defending a sector while the player outperforms them in equipment and firing range. With the "commander" implemented it would probably be easier to define a strategy for the enemy where, say, all troops hide until enough mercs get into reasonable range, then launch a full suicide attack.

tldr version: More aggressive enemies please.
Re: What should the AI consider?[message #312692] Sun, 02 December 2012 17:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mercury-FMJ

 
Messages:18
Registered:November 2012
Many of these ideas sound nice, but I'm not sure they can be implemented, at least not by the current programmers we have doing this for a hobby. AI is extremely hard to make; do you ever remember a game that actually had AI do anything smart? Even just getting them to take cover is extremely difficult and usually happens by chance (by this I mean shooting from cover; it seem to be not that hard to make AI hide behind something completely, but they generally expose themselves completely when they come out to shoot at you).

At the moment, I would be happy if someone could just make so the enemy all just runs to you and shoots as soon as they hear the alarm. Even that would be a big job though I think. The problem with specific instructions for different situations, is probably what caused the AI to be so bad in the first place. The problem is that the instructions work in occasional specific situations, and then are absolutely stupid most other times. Trying to implement enemies making "smart" decisions is, I suspect, the reason why they run around in circles.
Re: What should the AI consider?[message #312771] Tue, 04 December 2012 20:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Faithless

 
Messages:442
Registered:October 2009
Location: The safe end of the barre...
Which is why the idea was to remake the AI completely.

I never announced it as such because I knew it would probably never be finished. It's indeed on pause right now, until I feel like it again.
The problem isn't really a new AI, but it breaks all the quest and saved game data (maps and such).
Also all of the "do something" functions (shoot, walk over there, spray bullets all over), have to be able to simulate the action, which is mostly not the case right now.

Then there's also the matter if it will even be better than the original AI, something we won't know until it's done Wink
Re: What should the AI consider?[message #313326] Wed, 19 December 2012 13:50 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Torres

 
Messages:176
Registered:June 2010
Location: Canary Islands
It would be great if they stayed away from their comrades corpses, most of the time I have only to face the same direction and they keep coming even on open grounds with the bigmaps, it's just a massacre.

Also, would it be possible to make them fire at your last known position? make them start suppression fire or throw grenades, to at least force you to move.
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