Home » PLAYER'S HQ 1.13 » v1.13 General Gameplay Talk » Integrating the ammunition part of my MAM mod in the Main 1.13 SVN
| Integrating the ammunition part of my MAM mod in the Main 1.13 SVN[message #307889]
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Sun, 22 July 2012 15:33 
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 MJOne |
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Messages:100
Registered:March 2010
Location: Sweden |
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Hi all!
(SCROLL DOWN FOR PICTURES!!!)
For you who do not know my JA 1.13 mod called MAM (MJOne's Ammunition Mod) check it out here:
Main MAM Thread
MAM Homepage
DOWNLOAD MAM LITE! - FOR JA 1.13 4870(Stable version, not svn)!
Just extract the content and overwrite your tabledata folder in JA2/data 1.13/ folder... MAKE BACKUPS!!
MAM LITE DOWNLOAD
CHANGELOG!
THIS VERSION WILL ONLY CHANGE THE TUMBLE & PENETRATION VALUES FOR ALL THE AMMOTYPES INGAME AND ENEMY AMMO CHOICES, NOTHING ELSE!
I did this so it would be easier for the mod to be implemented in the main trunk if that's what the authors of 1.13 mod would like.
[color:#CC0000]
TO CLARIFY!
All that you read below are formulas that I have used OUTSIDE the game, this mod doesn't add a single line of code to the game.
The calculated data are made in an Excel document, and from that I add the values in the XML editor.
Instead of all the calibers sharing the same tumble and penetration value, they have their own data based upon their diameter, weight, velocity etc...[/color]
In short my mod calculates damage, penetration and tumbling, range and accuracy values based upon real data for all CALIBERS and their different TYPE.(AP, HP, Glaser etc)
Like so:
Calculated Values
New Damage Values for every weapon ingame, calculated based on:
Bullet Width
Bullet Weight
Bullet Speed
Bullet Shape
Bullet Type
Barrel Length
New Tumble Values for every caliber ingame, calculated based on:
Bullet Width
Bullet Weight
Bullet Speed
Bullet Shape
Bullet Type
New Penetration Values for every caliber ingame, calculated based on:
Bullet Width
Bullet Weight
Bullet Speed
Bullet Shape
Bullet Type
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FOREWORD
Damage is a complex thing in RL when it comes to ballistics. Humans are 60%-70% water, so pressure and "waves"
will form in the body when struck by a strong force. How that will affect the inner organs and the like is beyond JA2 engine.
However, it is worth mentioning. We are not simple wood boards that bullets fly through. Then there is shock, blunt trauma,
bleeding, after effects, fragmentation, deformation, penetration, tumbling, change of trajectory, hit loaction and all that stuff...
Damage
This is based foremost on Kinetic Energy = ROUND(((0,5*(Bullet-Weight/1000))*(Bullet-Speed^2))*Number-of-Pellets).
This is the data I could find on the net, but it is all based upon when the bullet leaves the barrel.
This is called "Muzzle Energy". In RL the bullet will start to slowdown as it leaves the barrel.
This is not simulated in JA2 except "beyond effective range" as I know it, I might be wrong here.
So in order to get a average I have toned down the effect of KE abit here. But the biggest reason is because of ENERGY TRANSFER!
Let's have a look:
If a target is hit by a bullet and the bullet slowdowns and stay in the body of the target, that means that ALL of it's current energy(damage),
is transfered to the target. This is as effective as the round can become in terms of energy transfer. On the opposite, if the bullet goes through the body of the target,
then that means that the bullet still has energy(damage) in it. So we lose some of it's "damage potential" since all the energy was NOT transfered to the body,
otherwise the bullet wouldn't fly onwards. Therefore, we can not only look at KE when determining damage, as I did in my first version, I have now read more, and
therefore understand this concept better. This is simulated as well. Another thing that affects damage is the width of the bullet.
A bigger hole = more bleeding potential.
Weapon barrel length will increase damage since the speed of the bullet will be greater in a longer barrel.
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Tumble
Tumble is actually called "DAMAGE AFTER ARMOUR" in the XML editor, and it can mean alot of the stuff I mentioned earlier, pressure, fragmentation, trajectory...etc.
So that's what I tried to do with my formula. A wider bullet will create a bigger hole and have a bigger area of damage then a smaller one.
A longer bullet will create a bigger cavity when it tumbles then a shorter or a round bullet(which can only spin, not tumble, if not deformed).
A heavier bullet will more easily penetrate the body intact and not deform or tumble, however it produces more overall KE and pressure,
so the overall DAMAGE value will increase. A faster bullet will not slowdown enough to start to tumble unless it is very light.
So you can see an intresting dynamic here between weight and speed. There is also the Aero Index which I have made up to
stimulate shape of the bullet: 1 = Flat, 2 = Semi-flat, 3 = Round, 4 = Spitzer and so on...A lower value here will INCREASE tumbling/deformation.
Weapon barrel length will decrease tumble since the speed of the bullet will be greater in a longer barrel.
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Penetration
Penetration is a very complicated matter. There are many factors that are in play here, I have only taken a few of those into play here.
First off, Diamater of the bullet. The width of the bullet will affect penetration in a major way. A wider bullet will have to meet alot more
friction than a smaller one, and therefore penetration will be much less...unless...the energy(KE) behind it is greater! So I have tried to
balance these two against each other. Also the Aero Index, or bullet shape, will also play a big role here, a flat bullet will not penetrate as far as a sharp one.
Weapon barrel length will increase penetration since the speed of the bullet will be greater in a longer barrel.
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Range
Range is based upon a common formula that takes the height of the object when being thrown/fired, gravity and in my mod Aero Index(Bullet shape)
and number of pellets fired into count. It is pretty straight forward. The max range formula is based upon shooting the weapon standing up with
the weapon 1.65 meters above ground with flat elevation. This is not very realistic I know, but it was the easiest way to get a formula that is
semi-realistic and easy to understand. In RL you would tilt the weapon upwards for long range shoots. I am aware of this. We don't have any elevation
or azimuth feature ingame, so this is also the reason why I used this particular formula as well.
Weapon barrel length will increase range since the speed of the bullet will be greater in a longer barrel.
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Accuracy
This formula is most prone to get shot down, I suspect. Here I reason like this, a faster bullet and a heavier will be less affected by wind,
air resistance, moisture etc. A wider bullet will meet more air resistance and therefore be prone to move sideways more, which means it will be less accurate.
This is a VERY simple equation, but it works pretty good across the board. Atleast, that's what I think. Remember, with the new CTH(NCTH),
recoil will compensate for things like shooting the AK vs the M4 in auto-mode.
Weapon barrel length will increase accuracy since the speed of the bullet will be greater in a longer barrel.
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+++ alot more... my other features like reworking the armor types to get a wider spectra of protection levels might be applicable to the main 1.13 to
add some protection against the bigger rounds, the other features might interfer with the standard 1.13 like my new FMJ(not AP) magazines for alot of calibers,
calculated prices for weapons, my attachment edits, etc etc... I understand that and infact I agree with that. However, since I haven't seen anything like my
ammunition part of my mod on this forum I think this would add, without bragging, a nice push of realism to the game.
I am currently working on new formulas for my mod and it is currently called "MAM lite". And I hope this will be added to the main JA 1.13 trunk.
Because everytime the JA 1.13 team changes the XML files, I have to spend one to two weeks to reedit almost every item in the game. That is a ton of work. 
To the mod authors of JA 1.13 I can send you my excel document which you can study in depth. Everything in them can be tweaked and are currently not final.
So I hope you would see this as a project not something set in stone. Everyone has their own idea of what's "realistic". But I think we can all agree that
adding different damage, penetration and tumble values based upon real world data is a good thing for the JA 1.13 community and should improve the playing experience alot.
Well folks, what do you think?
Here are some pictures to clarify: (This is still BETA sort of, I can tweak all the values and individually if needed...)
The diagram reads as follows; The grey values after the "AMMO TYPE"(in blue) are the armor rating as ingame. 0 = flesh. The numbers in the red lines are damage as ingame.
Do not get alarmed by certain ammotypes like buckshot on these pictures, they have their own type inside my calcchart so the penetration depth for FMJ/AP does NOT reflect the performance of buckshot, and alot of other types...
CALIBERS USING FMJ AMMO PART 1
CALIBERS USING FMJ AMMO PART 2
CALIBERS USING AP AMMO PART 1
CALIBERS USING AP AMMO PART 2
/MJOne
[Updated on: Thu, 23 August 2012 20:40] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Sergeant
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| Re: Integrating the ammunition part of my MAM mod in the Main 1.13 SVN[message #307926]
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Sun, 22 July 2012 23:44 
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| MJOne |
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Messages:100
Registered:March 2010
Location: Sweden |
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Thanks for the feedback so far!
Well there is no problem for new modders, I have all the formulas in an excel document so when we need to add new calibers you only type in:
Bullet diameter, weight, velocity, bullet length, aero index(1-6, higer = sharper tip) and number of pellets fired.
Then my formulas calculate everything for you.
It's very simple and handy. I can add new calibers in a blink of an eye.
And the only reason why my mod was incompatible with 4870 was because I had do redo the whole process of editing almost every item in the game, since my mod was NOT added to the regular vanilla ja 1.13 mod. That's the whole point of my idea here ;)=
I can share the excel document and all my formulas to modders, no probs.
I really hope we can get this thing flying...
[Updated on: Sun, 22 July 2012 23:46] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Sergeant
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| Re: Integrating the ammunition part of my MAM mod in the Main 1.13 SVN[message #307966]
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Mon, 23 July 2012 12:41
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| Strohmann |
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Messages:287
Registered:August 2011
Location: Division Thought Crimes |
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i am afraid i am against a incorperation. while i appreciate more diversity, the current game balance would go right through the window.
at least the last time i played it:
- the spectrum of damage, penetration and armour values was so high that after a certain point many weapons were outright useless, limiting players choice
- range was so high for most weapons that it became a pointless stat (except for pistols, shotguns and some smgs)
- sniper rifles, even such as the dragunovs, had pinpoint accuraccy (~100), vanilla values range from ~80 - 90
- it came with a custom CTHConstants.ini that etablished very low cth-values for the enemies because hits were so lethal
- other things i forgot :crazy:
to be honest i incorperated some of it's changes for shotguns, larger pistols and anti material rifles in my own personal "mod", but the rest would go too far in my opinion.
edit:
before someone raises the objection just to include the ammo part: i don't how this would work, because some values like accuracy, range, damage etc. are tied to the weapons themselfes.
[Updated on: Mon, 23 July 2012 12:48] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Master Sergeant
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| Re: Integrating the ammunition part of my MAM mod in the Main 1.13 SVN[message #307973]
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Mon, 23 July 2012 13:58
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| MJOne |
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Messages:100
Registered:March 2010
Location: Sweden |
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@ Strohmann
Well first off, thanks for your criticism, but I must confess that I can't agree with you on "the current game balance".
In vanilla, there isn't much difference between a .44 magnum round and a 9mm round. Which is ludicrous. Different calibers have different uses.
It's all upto you and your play style. And frankly, what's the point of choice if all are the same?
You don't pick a weapon because it looks good, you pick a weapon that can get the job done, whatever that job is.
How much ammo do I want to carry? Marksman or assualt duty? Heavy- or light-armored targets? Encumbrance? Attachments? Magazine size? Range?
Spread? etc etc...
But I respect your views... I would say that my mod gives the player more chocies, depending on what you want to achieve and your playing style and the indivdual MERC style.
However, an assualt rifle will almost always be more powerful then an SMG. They both have their pros / cons. Atleast that's my point of view.
And in my own MAM mod, I have reworked the armors so they stop the first bullets well but degrade much much faster.
So spraying an with 9mm will eventually be quite effective. And in my new "MAM lite" version I have brought the different calibers somewhat closer to each other. But just a tad bit.
And I think it is not fair to say that it limits the player to certain weapons, as the game progresses you will have used alot of different weapons to the point your at now.
If you study my penetration chart(which sounds dirty) you will find that some calibers(like the .44) makes alot of damage at 0-20 armor rating, but lose their damage potetial very fast, while others
makes moderate damage and have a slow decline of damage through an armor rating between 0-50. And remember you can't carry around as much 7.62x51mm ammo as 5.56x45. And the later is much easier to control when firing auto.
On a last note...
That is correct, the range, accuracy and damage are weapon wise not ammo wise(except for tumbling which is a multiplier on damage)...
That's why I purpose a "MAM lite"(only the ammunition part and a new one for that matter), as I'm sure you read. 
That would only add penetration and tumbling values for all calibers. You know the values you find on the ammo ingame.
[Updated on: Mon, 23 July 2012 14:28] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Sergeant
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| Re: Integrating the ammunition part of my MAM mod in the Main 1.13 SVN[message #307984]
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Mon, 23 July 2012 17:26
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| Strohmann |
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Messages:287
Registered:August 2011
Location: Division Thought Crimes |
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nah, it was no criticism. you built your changes around specific assumptions and models in a closed system, your mod. which will work fine under that circumstances and of cource you are free to shape your mod as you please. but we are talking about incorperating some of it's parts into another system.
currently:
- you more or less "choose" to burst/auto to increase your hit probability
- you can use your "medium caliber" marksman rifles for body shots
what i fear is if the spectrum/spread of damage, penetration and armour values etc. becomes too wide, it more or less shifts to:
- you are "forced" to burst/auto with small calibers because the armor is so thick/the penetration/damage is so low
- you "must" use your "medium caliber" marksman rifles for head shots or switch to automatic weapons for body shots because the armor is so thick/the penetration/damage is so low
to keep it not at an abstract level, how would it look like?
MAMToggle SpoilerSkorpion vz.82
damage 11
armor penetration -20,4%
Desert Eagle .50 AE
damage 62
armor penetration +26%
AKM
range 53
damage 30
armor penetration +67%
M16A1
accu 60
range 70
damage 23
armor penetration +80,1%
FN MAG
accu 91
range 75
damage 41
armor penetration +71,4%
armor values ~ 10 - 55 VanillaToggle SpoilerSkorpion vz.82
damage 24
armor penetration 0%
Desert Eagle .50 AE
damage 29
armor penetration +25%
AKM
range 33
damage 32
armor penetration +25%
M16A1
accu 66
range 35
damage 31
armor penetration +25%
FN MAG
accu 81
range 63
damage 37
armor penetration +25%
armor values ~ 20 - 28 becomes then what? something like this?Toggle SpoilerFN MAG
damage 37
armor penetration +71,4%
armor values ~ 20 - 28
edit: running out of time atm, i expand the answer in the evening.
[Updated on: Mon, 23 July 2012 17:27] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Master Sergeant
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| Re: Integrating the ammunition part of my MAM mod in the Main 1.13 SVN[message #307997]
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Mon, 23 July 2012 21:32
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| Strohmann |
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Messages:287
Registered:August 2011
Location: Division Thought Crimes |
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according to this chart, the first ammo types you will find ingame, .38 special, 9x19mm, .45 ACP, 9x18mm etc. would be utterly useless against the very first armor, the kevlar vest with protection 20. given that these are loaded as ball as standard, they would loose even more. so you are forced to burst/full auto to destroy the armor, single shots weapon like pistols would be basicly limited to headshots at point black range given their accuracy etc.
of course one could change all armor values, but that leaves the relation between the ammo types untouched, e.g. lowering would empower the medium and heavy types even more.
another find: 5.56x45mm and 7.62x39mm are very close. i am no ammunition expert, but is this really the case in real life?
given that ingame the latter has less accuracy, range and produces more recoil, weapons loaded with it would have little use. (i believe this is already the case in unmodded vanilla, which is bad in my opinion.)
i am not against the idea of more diversity, but with such values the "gamy" vanilla balance would be shattered.
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Master Sergeant
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| Re: Integrating the ammunition part of my MAM mod in the Main 1.13 SVN[message #308113]
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Wed, 25 July 2012 18:36
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| Sandro |
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Messages:420
Registered:November 2008
Location: Mars |
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I have played with MAM shortly after it was released. Though I only used the damage part, no changes to gun range or accuracy, if I remember correctly.
It felt very good generally. But there were some things that caught my mind.
While differences between calibers were meaningful and good, differences between particular guns within the same caliber pool were nearly non-existant, which forced me to not even consider using something else than 1-2 guns within the same caliber type, the difference was only made by firing speed (reliability and other stuff does not take such a big part in JA2). So it often felt like I am meeting over and over the same gun with different name (for the same caliber type of course). Realistic it may be, but for the game it wasn't so pleasing. When I found a gun which shoots with 1 less AP needed than the other one with same damage, then I am going to use it of course. -1AP to shoot, +1 damage would be something I could a least think about. So maybe s small deviation in your system (+-5% for "random factors") within the same caliber type guns may be introduced - to use for balancing issues. Screw realism if it works against the game.
Other thing I noticed was the firing speed, i.e. AP costs were not touched. That is wrong imo. The system should be balanced as a whole. As you said, different calibers for different needs... low caliber may mean faster weapon. Large caliber for penetrating heavy armor means slower firing.
Otherwise I can approve the idea of implementing MAM to 1.13, however I believe more work should be done on the balancing first - AP costs at least to harmonize the gun usability. It would be a drastic change after all.
As a side note to the armor discussion - don't forget the armor coverage. Kevlar may stop any 9mm ball ammo with ease, but the vest does not cover 100% of the body and often you hit unprotected part dealing full damage. Even early on you are always able to hurt your enemies.
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, that's just to clarify on how I think and reason.
