Home » FULL CONTROL GAMES » #JAFDEV » Community Wishlist for JA:F
Re: Community Wishlist for JA:F[message #319543] Mon, 13 May 2013 19:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Vortexdr

 
Messages:57
Registered:April 2013
This popped up in another forum and was wonder about it as well.

Quote:
So they are leaving aside the possibility hinted by JA2: running out of resources to exploit going with the consequence of imposing a dead line on the long term completion of the campaign.

Their economy is based on infinite streams of revenues which bring money as long as you wish.

They dilute a bit more the island character that makes the Jagged Alliance series so promising.

The island settings has no meaning, it is just decorum.

Going back to the "UGOIGO" turn sequence was already a step backward. Now removing a strong characteristic of a tiny island economy is another on


http://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20376
Re: Community Wishlist for JA:F[message #319549] Mon, 13 May 2013 20:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JAFTeam

 
Messages:157
Registered:April 2013
Is there an infinite money revenue? Possible. But that's why we are thinking about sectors as money sinks, too. Especially those who will give you an advantage, like a hospital. And than again: Money won't bring you progress. Without a decent level of experience, some mercs won't join you, not caring how much you are willing to pay them. Money != progress. Plus you must hold sectors to have an income. And enemies won't wait till you're rich.
Re: Community Wishlist for JA:F[message #319551] Mon, 13 May 2013 21:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Arulcish_Lion

 
Messages:261
Registered:January 2013
Location: Saint-Petersburg, Russia
Quote:
Without a decent level of experience, some mercs won't join you, not caring how much you are willing to pay them
I think, it's a good idea. And it was amazing in JA1. But you should be ready that some players won't be happy by this. There are people who like to hire expensive mercs from the very beginning, or even hire them for one day - for their guns.

Quote:
Money != progress.
That's great.

Quote:
Plus you must hold sectors to have an income. And enemies won't wait till you're rich.
Do we need this income?
I understand that this question might look odd or even stupid. But in JA2 I usually can afford to forget about my cash limits and think, that I have endless money, cause I have some money to spend and contracts for all my soldiers untill the winning day (and even further)

☆★GL★☆
Re: Community Wishlist for JA:F[message #319553] Mon, 13 May 2013 21:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JAFTeam

 
Messages:157
Registered:April 2013
Well, the amount will differ. And not all sectors will have income. Some will. Others not. But yes, you'll definitely need the money. Otherwise you'd run dry very, very fast Wink
Re: Community Wishlist for JA:F[message #319558] Mon, 13 May 2013 23:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peal

 
Messages:259
Registered:August 2007
Location: Germany
lockie
Might be wrong , but haven't noticed any mention of underground areas , mines caves etc .


Since they did Space Hulk - you could see this game as an pure basement level of JA:F Smile I doubt they wont integrate it.

*edit

Well of cause I meant it like, you go down the stairs and a mob of symbiotic evil will stare at you from the dark. There you go I said it, the SciFi mode.

[Updated on: Mon, 13 May 2013 23:18] by Moderator

Re: Community Wishlist for JA:F[message #319563] Mon, 13 May 2013 23:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
MasterN

 
Messages:44
Registered:February 2011
Location: Berlin - Ger
As some wish for anal detail, and as Flashback seems to be in the past (I don't really know when JA2 is set to play):

How about Lynx and Buzz still being married like Raven and Raider are in JA2 and have them fall out with each other during the course of the campaign (if they survive)?


On another topic:
As I am still fairly concerned about the entire outcome(in whatever Form it may take place) I'd like to put together a little List of stuff I'd like to see supported by the game (NOT necessarily used as content for the release). I'm pretty sure that some of these points have been mentioned before but I'm a little tight on time, so forgive me if I haven't read all posts here.

- support for huge maps. Certainly not needed for the release (and perhaps even a bad idea since the design consumes a lot of time), but hopefully available for additions, as the scaled down view and weapon range is quite annoying at times.

- "Mac Gyver"-style item combinations resulting in useful equipment. Probably not too difficult to put into the game, but very nice eye-catcher.

- Possibility to remove the tactical grid entirely. While turn based combat, in one form or another, always relies on something like APs, a grid is theoretically fully unnecessaey. Distance in all directions can be easily calculated, and when an aming-system similar to that of 1.13 is used, a cover system might even be easier to implement without the constrains of a grid (just an assumption^^).

- Very Important is the AI. Some people wish for the removal of an institution like "Bobby Ray's" and a random drop like vanilla JA2 for balancing reasons. A good AI can manage to be a challenge better and longer with low-tech equipment, thus lessening the income and/or the supply of weapons, armour, ammunition and so on... I know that the implementation of AI becomes exceedingly more difficult the better it gets, but every hour spent here is spent wisely. Even more than any other sort of item or map-based content. (I don't know if I'm just pointing out the obvious to experienced game devs, but to me this is of such importance, that I can't avoid mentioning it as often as possible).

- More general this time... Options are very important as well. Some people prefer to live of the land exclusively. I for example don't. I also don't have a problem playing over powered characters, massacreing through the enemy forces. So please just put little checkboxes in there somewhere, where you can turn stuff on and off at your own choice. There are probably enough people who prefer the game to be customizable to their own preferences, even if this or that may not have been on the devs or anybody elses mind.



I can't think of more right now... I'll add anything else later...

[Updated on: Mon, 13 May 2013 23:36] by Moderator

Re: Community Wishlist for JA:F[message #319572] Tue, 14 May 2013 02:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
grim

 
Messages:344
Registered:July 2006
Location: France
Sweet_O
As some wish for anal detail

??? Hmm no thanks!
Re: Community Wishlist for JA:F[message #319578] Tue, 14 May 2013 07:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
MasterN

 
Messages:44
Registered:February 2011
Location: Berlin - Ger
fyi, anal can also mean something like
m
Re: Community Wishlist for JA:F[message #319617] Tue, 14 May 2013 13:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
grim

 
Messages:344
Registered:July 2006
Location: France
Thank you for the note. I didn't know that interpretation/nuance.

I'd like some MacGyver-ish Do-It-Yourself merges too. Barrel extenders and rod&spring are not very popular around here, but there are many other possibilities. It could be very "A-team" and give a little more emphasis on mechanics skill.
Re: Community Wishlist for JA:F[message #319623] Tue, 14 May 2013 14:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lockie

 
Messages:3853
Registered:February 2006
Location: Scotland
Quote:
Is there an infinite money revenue? Possible.


How cool would an "oil rig island" map be to attack/defend ? And it's a money spinner too .


Re: Community Wishlist for JA:F[message #319629] Tue, 14 May 2013 14:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JAFTeam

 
Messages:157
Registered:April 2013
Funny that you are talking about that... read the update in... prbly an hour or so.
Re: Community Wishlist for JA:F[message #319631] Tue, 14 May 2013 14:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
gdalf

 
Messages:89
Registered:May 2013
lockie have you been hacking FC's computers again...

Edit: I want a Bermuda triangle sector that explains what happened to Flight 19!

[Updated on: Tue, 14 May 2013 14:54] by Moderator

Re: Community Wishlist for JA:F[message #319633] Tue, 14 May 2013 15:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JAFTeam

 
Messages:157
Registered:April 2013
And I want to know what were the numbers all about in Lost :-/
Re: Community Wishlist for JA:F[message #319634] Tue, 14 May 2013 15:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shanga

 
Messages:3532
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia
I wanted to ask "the answer to life the universe and everything". But then i just Googled it (try it, it's for real).

Very Happy


Re: Community Wishlist for JA:F[message #319637] Tue, 14 May 2013 15:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lockie

 
Messages:3853
Registered:February 2006
Location: Scotland
Quote:
Poster: JAFTeam
Subject: Re: Community Wishlist for JA:F

And I want to know what were the numbers all about in Lost :-/


Absolutely nobody knows what the numbers or island or anything else was in Lost ! Wasted 7 seasons of my life watching it in the vain hope there would be some sort of wrap-up .

Oh well , here's to the next grab 'em and then just wing it series . :/


Re: Community Wishlist for JA:F[message #319853] Thu, 16 May 2013 16:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lifeline83

 
Messages:11
Registered:October 2008
Maps:

Re: Community Wishlist for JA:F[message #319867] Thu, 16 May 2013 20:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Cyborg

 
Messages:37
Registered:November 2006
Location: Europe
Lifeline83
Maps:


[Updated on: Thu, 16 May 2013 20:08] by Moderator

Re: Community Wishlist for JA:F[message #319903] Fri, 17 May 2013 09:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kaerar

 
Messages:2047
Registered:January 2003
Location: Australia :D
IMO the XCOM system is too simplistic and in a lot of ways broken. JA2's psuedo ray-casting method is far far more accurate and interesting Wink


Re: Community Wishlist for JA:F[message #319964] Fri, 17 May 2013 20:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lifeline83

 
Messages:11
Registered:October 2008
I agree that the XCOM system is too simplistic. That was just for make an example, but it reeaally needs improvements for become more realistic.

[Updated on: Fri, 17 May 2013 20:04] by Moderator

Re: Community Wishlist for JA:F[message #319965] Fri, 17 May 2013 20:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sam Hotte

 
Messages:2005
Registered:March 2009
Location: Middle of Germany
BTW more realistic:
The art style in the "demo scene" from last KS update could use a bit more realism graphics wise ...
Re: Community Wishlist for JA:F[message #319966] Fri, 17 May 2013 20:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shanga

 
Messages:3532
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia

The full game will have bump mapping and better details. You can't compare something WE pressured them to do in a week or two to a full game, that is done in a year or so.

Don't know why people tend to treat the diorama as if it was an alpha they have been working on for the past year or so. The fact is that if Jesper and Javier, without any other help from the rest of the team, managed to get this done in two weeks time and less... my hopes for the full game are much higher now.

Yea, me too would've like to see better textures and so on and so forth. But would've we gotten the diorama before KS was over? No. Would've we cried they have nothing to show? We would've.

Diorama is just a proof of ability. And a hint of style. I like both. And whoever says "oh no, it's Frontline Tactics" is either an idiot or wants to troll this game because his mum wouldn't let him pay the $25 to get it. I dig the people who say "I don't like 80's comics style". I understand that, not everyone was born before the '80s or ever held a comics book in his hand (Cartoon Network print-outs doesn't count). But to deny that JA:F has a style and just "looks like FT", like some trolls comment over the Interwebz... it's lame.

But honestly, I don't care so much. As I've already said on KS, the eye-candy stuff debate is idiotic from the start in a TBS game. All FC needs to do is not fuck it up too bad, give it personality and do proper gameplay. It's not like the previous developers set a very high standard for them.


Re: Community Wishlist for JA:F[message #319967] Fri, 17 May 2013 21:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
R@S

 
Messages:134
Registered:July 2004
Location: Sweden
I saw the diorama as an attempt to "set the mood", and I really liked what I saw. I personally don't mind the cartoony direction, as long as it is consistent throughout the game. If people complain that it will break immersion, they haven't given it enough thought. This is a game, and it'll take a couple of minutes playing and you'll be there in your mind.

Another thing that came to mind when reading some of the comments was the lack of detail. Seriously, what's that about? And even if they didn't go for the highest quality textures once they start on the game, but instead wanted to make huge maps without breaking any graphics cards, I'd be happy as well. Jagged Alliance has always been about fun, tactical gameplay, and as long as that's their goal I'll gladly pay my lousy 250$.

Great job Jesper and Javier, looking forward to seeing more of your art Smile
Re: Community Wishlist for JA:F[message #319975] Fri, 17 May 2013 22:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JAFTeam

 
Messages:157
Registered:April 2013
Keep in mind that this is the style-direction. Not the final quality (if you want to see some more polished stuff have a look at our Space Hulk Screens. They are not faked, although of course made from the right direction Wink). However with the style we also want to ease it modding the whole thing.

How that, you may ask? Well. Let's say we go for the ArmA-Style. Sure, that's quite a possible thing to do. But: This makes it harder to produce mods for the game cause people would need to add so many details to everything. We are still aiming for a realistic look, yet with stronger colors it's not only easier for us but also for modders to "coat" things a bit here and there if needed. Think about it: There might be some people out there with great ideas and whom are talented programmers or level-architects but lack texture / 3d-skills. In that direction, they could still realize their idea without being an ugly rubber ducky. And those with skills can still add lot's of details.

And for the gore stuff: It's even easier to show explicit gore if needed cause people will definitely realize it Wink
Re: Community Wishlist for JA:F[message #319979] Fri, 17 May 2013 22:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sam Hotte

 
Messages:2005
Registered:March 2009
Location: Middle of Germany
JAFTeam
Keep in mind that this is the style-direction. Not the final quality (if you want to see some more polished stuff have a look at our Space Hulk Screens.

As far as I'm concerned, it's not about the polishing but just about style direction 8or art style as I wrote it). And it's not my favourite for a JA setting.

Well, you cannot please everybody, but as far as I can tell from the comments on KS, there are quite some backers also wishing for less cartoonish style compared to the diorama.

Yes, it's hard to tell if the scenery would still look as it currently does when bump mapping etc. would be applied, but still ...
Re: Community Wishlist for JA:F[message #319980] Fri, 17 May 2013 22:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
grim

 
Messages:344
Registered:July 2006
Location: France
This is maybe not the style i would have given to a JA game, but this is A style, a strong one, not a random generic thing, and that's all i want. If you manage to show us some NPC or merc art until the end (a portrait, a detailed model, some voice acting or anything), and it has strong personnality, character, then you'll have a very good point!

Keep up the good work!
Re: Community Wishlist for JA:F[message #319981] Fri, 17 May 2013 22:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Loki7285

 
Messages:34
Registered:May 2013
not everybody can be pleased and to be honest graphics in Ja are not the factor why somebody plays it
Re: Community Wishlist for JA:F[message #319982] Fri, 17 May 2013 22:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shanga

 
Messages:3532
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia
ArmA is fugly as hell. Yea it's nice and wide. But UGLY.

If you want combat sims, Steam is cramming with them. I want my JA to be something else, because it deserves to be something else. It was never "another TBS". All other attempts, from Hired Guns to BiA, were just "another game" with a story remotely resembling JA2.

JA:F will definitely put its mark on the series and on the gaming scene. Mark my words.


Re: Community Wishlist for JA:F[message #319983] Fri, 17 May 2013 22:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sam Hotte

 
Messages:2005
Registered:March 2009
Location: Middle of Germany
Bivol
not everybody can be pleased and to be honest graphics in Ja are not the factor why somebody plays it

Problem is, that those who don't care for graphics at all can and probably will stick with JA2 (1.13) getting all the fun they do wish for. They have no reason to buy J
Re: Community Wishlist for JA:F[message #319985] Fri, 17 May 2013 23:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Loki7285

 
Messages:34
Registered:May 2013
i believe that JA:F can make a lot things better than JA 2
Re: Community Wishlist for JA:F[message #319990] Fri, 17 May 2013 23:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shanga

 
Messages:3532
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia
JA:F = better scripting, better modelling and an engine that's documented and most people can use.

JA2 v1.13 will never die and probably we'll get JA2 mods for another 10 years from now. But when you hit the limits in JA2 code, you have the above option.

What's to lose? $25?



Re: Community Wishlist for JA:F[message #319992] Fri, 17 May 2013 23:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sam Hotte

 
Messages:2005
Registered:March 2009
Location: Middle of Germany
Shanga
What's to lose?

The complete game (If it'd not be funded ...)
Re: Community Wishlist for JA:F[message #319999] Sat, 18 May 2013 00:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JAFTeam

 
Messages:157
Registered:April 2013
Well well. It will get funded. Anyways. Somehow. If needed, someone of us will take a credit on some house and put the money in. We won't let it fail. Not now. Not after all this hard work. Not after all the support you guys have shown. Not after all these sleepless nights.
Re: Community Wishlist for JA:F[message #320000] Sat, 18 May 2013 01:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sam Hotte

 
Messages:2005
Registered:March 2009
Location: Middle of Germany
That's a word!
But let's emanate some good vibes and believe for the KS to succeed ... Smile
Re: Community Wishlist for JA:F[message #320001] Sat, 18 May 2013 01:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
grim

 
Messages:344
Registered:July 2006
Location: France
It's nice, comforting to read this. I'm confident this campaign will be successful without such dedication, though.
Re: Community Wishlist for JA:F[message #320003] Sat, 18 May 2013 01:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
R@S

 
Messages:134
Registered:July 2004
Location: Sweden
Nice to see your true dedication to the JA franchise.

But don't worry too much, the Russians are coming! Smile
Re: Community Wishlist for JA:F[message #320004] Sat, 18 May 2013 01:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
EXile 150 Abyss

 
Messages:138
Registered:September 2009
Probably going to up my pledge another $100 every little bit helps...
Re: Community Wishlist for JA:F[message #320009] Sat, 18 May 2013 02:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JP'TR

 
Messages:104
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
JAFTeam
Well well. It will get funded. Anyways. Somehow. If needed, someone of us will take a credit on some house and put the money in. We won't let it fail. Not now. Not after all this hard work. Not after all the support you guys have shown. Not after all these sleepless nights.


I like your attitude! But i realy hope you don't need to throw your own money in the pot.

350.000$ is such a small amount, i tried to figure out how you come arround with this income. Your Teams Salary for maybe 1 1/2 years, and all other costs you will have, its hard to believe you can hold a development team above water with this, even if its a small Team as yours.
(Is it just me seeing parallels to the JA2 money system, where you allways have to fight for the mines to keep your wonderful team together? ^^)

Maybe if we all (we and you) are lucky, and you are able to create a BASIC with your first JA Game here, a Basic for following titles, and a new Basic for the modding community, then maybe you will have all the mines in your hand in future, what you could give the possibility to expand and bring JA back, in the real big way, some day.

But at this point, i hope you are aware about the difficulties for this project.
I just watched your nice Diorama, it shows you have the possibilities, and all what you say/write proves me that you want to do everything for a good JA-Comeback.

But i am still a bit scared, the new 3D with this uneven ground, the different Map-Scales (Town/Wood), could hardly change the most important things in gameplay, specialy if i look at the:

-grid system
(is it still the classic#-form? How will it be handled on all this uneven ground? Will we see at the first attemp, where we are in cover and how good is the cover, where is light, how strong and where not? This is sooo important)

-the destruction sytsem
(In JA you allways knew, a boiler will explode, the straight wall/fench, will get destroyed, AND we exactly knew the radius of explosions. Difficult on a not uniformly ground.)

-roof climbing
(in JA: low/flat roof = you can climb! High/pitched roof = no climbing!
With new 3D, more complex grafic, is see big problems on the transparancy in such points.

In JA a important basic was:
If you play this game, you never get stressed. You can play it for hours and through nights, and its allways nice and reassuring, and you exatly now what you are doing, there was a complete transparancy, what you let exactly plan all your steps.

Not that i am against anything of the new possibilities in 3D, and the more complex scenarios and all this, we need this, but i hope you know about the maybe upcoming problems with the new layout and the importance of these little details, and if you have difficult choices to do, my tipp would be to choose the classic way, even if you have to cut out something of the cool new stuff. (In my opinion: even if it means to make flat grounds again!)
I am sure the other Developers of "JA3s" had to mess with such porblems too, and for me these are mainreasons why they fail and why the gameplay never again reached JA1-2.

[Updated on: Sat, 18 May 2013 02:51] by Moderator

Re: Community Wishlist for JA:F[message #320018] Sat, 18 May 2013 13:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Claudius

 
Messages:15
Registered:January 2004
Location: France
Hello, I am long fan of the JA series, registered long time ago and appreciated the different mods. I posted long ago, but have still browsed the forum from time to time. And finally bumped on the KS announcement.

Of course I'm going to pledge.

I am a well appreciated Neverwinter Nights 2 mod builder (despite my rough English) under the name 'Claudius33'. I have released three faily long campaigns (40, 60 and 30 hours), one in French only (journal and walkthrough in English) and two bilingual French/English.

As the JAF Team wrote it in a post, I am a rather skilled programmer, level mapper and storyteller but know zylch about textures, let alone 3D modeling.

My dream would be a toolset as powerful as the Obsidian NWN2 toolset but on top the the JA world.

But first thing first let's help the KS and enjoy the game end 2014!
I don't know what is my real influence on the NWN2 community, and I don't think it is that much larger as the JA community.
Anyway I posted the text below on the Bioware NWN2 forum. Hopefully it will be posted on the NWN2's Vault front page today :

-----

If you are like me a long time fan of the Jagged Alliance series, the highly praised tactical turn based tactical RPG, here is finally an opportunity to get the long awaited sequel it deserves, Jagged Alliance : Flashback. The developper Full Control is fully commited to the project, and fully respectful of all the elements that have made Jagged Alliance a game so fun to play. Full Control has launched a Kickstarter that now ends within 5 days.

The Bear's pit forum is for Jagged Alliance what is the Vault is for Neverwinter Nights. It fully supports the project. And believe me, the JA community is very demanding.

You are a RPG fan, aren't you? Read what these famous folks have written :

"This is my type of game. Smile I think these guys really get it and I'm looking forward to this game." - Ian Currie, designer of the original Jagged Alliance games.

"I can't directly speak to Full Control's ability to make a great Jagged Alliance game. But I can say that they are very skilled with Unity, understand game/software development, and can move mountains with limited resources. I don't question their intentions or integrity. I backed Jagged Alliance: Flashback day 1. - Kevin Saunders, Project Director at inXile (Torment: Tides of Numenera)

"If you're a fan of turn-based tactical RPGs, be sure to check out the Kickstarter project from Full Control, Jagged Alliance: Flashback. If you've played the classic Jagged Alliance games, you know they are challenging and incredibly fun. In particular, Jagged Alliance 2 features great freedom to explore the world, a huge array of gear, awesome tactical fights, and a large cast of colorful mercenaries with cool personality mechanics.Full Control have shown a lot of love for what made the Jagged Alliance games so memorable, including elements found in fan tweaks (like JA2's 1.13 community patch). They've got about a week to go in their campaign, so head on over and check it out!" - Josh Sawyer, Project Director Osbidian (Project Eternity)

Whether or you are a fan of Jagged Alliance, or haven't played such a game yet, you *must* check the Kickstarter. This project MUST get funded. Let's make it happen!

Jagged Alliance : Flashback Kickstarter : http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2079547763/jagged-alliance-flashback

[Updated on: Sat, 18 May 2013 13:58] by Moderator

Re: Community Wishlist for JA:F[message #320019] Sat, 18 May 2013 14:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JAFTeam

 
Messages:157
Registered:April 2013
scope100


350.000$ is such a small amount, i tried to figure out how you come arround with this income. Your Teams Salary for maybe 1 1/2 years, and all other costs you will have, its hard to believe you can hold a development team above water with this, even if its a small Team as yours.
(Is it just me seeing parallels to the JA2 money system, where you allways have to fight for the mines to keep your wonderful team together? ^^)


Hehe, well. Space Hulk release will come. We hope to get some decent success out of it. Plus we generate money with previous games of course. It gets less and less each month, but it still is quite an amount. Plus we have quite some friends in the industry which helps reducing costs in terms of production value. May it be assets, voice overs or translations. In terms of budget, we definitely did our homework Wink
Re: Community Wishlist for JA:F[message #320022] Sat, 18 May 2013 15:34 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Sam Hotte

 
Messages:2005
Registered:March 2009
Location: Middle of Germany
Well, if budget runs dry by whatever and you start starving - ask the pit's bears to hunt some hamsters for BBQ ... Very Happy
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