Home » PLAYER'S HQ 1.13 » v1.13 General Gameplay Talk » Can this be fixed?
Can this be fixed?[message #327233] Sun, 27 October 2013 22:10 Go to next message
Wolf_22
Messages:4
Registered:October 2013
I recently installed version 1.13. I'm not sure what the build is or how to find it but the INI Editor is of version 1.5.0.0 (if that helps).

Anyway, I recently played this and I love the additional weapons that have been added. It's clear that a lot of work has gone into this and that's great, however, I found some things that I'm at odds with:

1.) Mercs can't move with an unzipped backpack.
2.) Mercs can't climb onto a roof while wearing back packs.
3.) It takes somewhere around 20 APs just to unzip your back pack just to have access to whatever you have in it and then when it's unzipped, you have to spend another 20-something APs to zip it back up so that you can move again.
4.) Pistols with suppressors can't be holstered unless you attach a suppressor after holstering the pistol each time it needs to be holstered.
5.) Throwing distances have been drastically decreased almost to a point where having grenades isn't worth it.
6.) It's all too common for enemies to see me before I see them for some reason (despite having things like extended ears, night vision goggles, etc.)
7.) Pistols appear to be jamming up way too frequently. I just finished a battle where a P210 9mm pistol jammed--and I kid you not--7 times within the span of 1 minute. You can't tell me that's normal, even on "Experienced."

Can any of these things be edited, tweaked, changed, configured, etc.? Some of these issues come close to being deal-breakers.

[Updated on: Sun, 27 October 2013 22:44] by Moderator

Re: Can this be fixed?[message #327234] Sun, 27 October 2013 22:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
tais

 
Messages:674
Registered:February 2008
Location: NL
1.) not a bug it's a feature, it's kinda hard to walk around with a backpack completely opened, things and stuff fallin out you know...
2.) not a bug, it's a feature, backpacks tend to be heavy, not so easy climbing on roofs with those...
3.) yes, doing stuff costs points in a turn based strategy game, you do understand the difference between a backpack and a combat pack right?
4.) that is sort of a bug, if a pistol with suppressor doesn't fit in a holster you also shouldn't be able to attach it while the gun is inside the holster, yes holsters differ, some accept pistols with suppressors
5.) that is a point that has been discussed a lot, atleast train up the required skills for throwing
6.) you're walking in the middle of the street and everybody is shooting at you from cover or what? it's pretty normal for enemies to see you when you see them, that's how fights start, you should use cover at that moment, just an advice Smile

Have you ever before played a turn based strategy game where soldiers shoot at eachother and stuff?
Because most of the things ur complaining about sound pretty normal to me...


Re: Can this be fixed?[message #327235] Sun, 27 October 2013 22:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
IoP

 
Messages:17
Registered:March 2012
0) You did not mention that carrying backpack lowers your APs.

1), 2) and 3) Have you ever seen any movies about strike teams and war? Are soldiers always carrying heavy backpacks into combat instead of lighter combat packs?
Re: Can this be fixed?[message #327236] Sun, 27 October 2013 22:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
pheloncab

 
Messages:281
Registered:August 2004
Location: So. Cal. or texas
1-4 are completely normal and are set up to make the game realistic

5- as Tais said its under discussion in many forms and facets, the big issue is that the original game was set with one tile being 10 meters, this has led to many problems when trying to improve the game and apply real world information (like gun and grenade ranges and area of effect) into the game.

There is a mitigation that is being created called BIG MAPS, however it is still in a limited Beta status and the reworking of all the sector maps and all the item data will take time to complete and to re-balance.

6 you can tweak sight ranges in the ini files, however most if not all of those will tweak ranges for both you and your enemies. using camouflage, cover, and moving in slow careful bursts with your troops taking the time to look in multiple directions will help minimize the unpleasant surprises.

Re: Can this be fixed?[message #327238] Sun, 27 October 2013 22:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
tais

 
Messages:674
Registered:February 2008
Location: NL
4.) needs some adding then, you should be able to add the suppressor to the gun while in the holster but after that you wont be able to take it out until you remove the supressor!


Re: Can this be fixed?[message #327239] Sun, 27 October 2013 23:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Larynx

 
Messages:184
Registered:April 2003
Tais
5.) that is a point that has been discussed a lot, atleast train up the required skills for throwing

This is something that has been bothering me for a long time. Even mercs that should be good at throwing are not.

Why is it that neither enemy soldiers nor militia are affected by this? I've noticed that they can throw roughly twice as far as mercs.
Re: Can this be fixed?[message #327240] Sun, 27 October 2013 23:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wolf_22
Messages:4
Registered:October 2013
Tais
1.) not a bug it's a feature, it's kinda hard to walk around with a backpack completely opened, things and stuff fallin out you know...

Backpacks never have Boolean outcomes. Believe it or not, you can partially-unzip a backpack to grab something in it without having everything fall out, and yes, even while moving around.

Tais
2.) not a bug, it's a feature, backpacks tend to be heavy, not so easy climbing on roofs with those...

But people can lift themselves onto a roof by grabbing and hoisting themselves up with soffit? At any given moment on Earth, every backpack is too heavy to haul up onto a roof, regardless of what's in it, how much it can hold, etc.? What if a building had a ladder or a stairway that led up to a roof? Would it be acceptable then to take a backpack onto a roof? Maybe we should consider getting with the developers to see if they would be willing to add acquirable components necessary to build pulley systems capable of lugging things like med kits, sniper rifles, et al onto roofs. That way, when someone like Ivan or Shadow need to have something lifted onto a roof, we won't have to make ourselves believe that the soffit will break with their extra backpack weight, even if the only thing in their backpack is a single syringe of Regeneration Booster (heavy, I know)...

Tais
3.) yes, doing stuff costs points in a turn based strategy game, you do understand the difference between a backpack and a combat pack right?

It's irrelevant because we've already established the fact that you can partially-unzip a backpack at this point.

Tais
4.) that is sort of a bug, if a pistol with suppressor doesn't fit in a holster you also shouldn't be able to attach it while the gun is inside the holster, yes holsters differ, some accept pistols with suppressors

...

Tais
5.) that is a point that has been discussed a lot, atleast train up the required skills for throwing

...

Tais
6.) you're walking in the middle of the street and everybody is shooting at you from cover or what? it's pretty normal for enemies to see you when you see them, that's how fights start, you should use cover at that moment, just an advice Smile

Nope. Not walking around with neon lights and a blaring boom box. I was wearing camo, night vision goggles, extended ear, in silent mode, crawling around behind shrubs. The enemy, however, was standing out in the open beside a building that had an entire wall blown-out. Nothing between me and the enemy except 10 squares worth of distance (and a shrub I thought I could hide behind). Yet, every single turn that kept occurring, my guy could never see him unless I took a couple steps closer to the enemy (not just in front of the shrub, but literally 1 additional step beyond this, whereby of course, my APs were exhausted by then).

Tais
Have you ever before played a turn based strategy game where soldiers shoot at eachother and stuff?
Because most of the things ur complaining about sound pretty normal to me...

Don't be a close-minded fan-boy who can't partially-unzip a backpack.

Okay, so I guess the consensus is, "...it's more real this way," despite discussing a game that centers around 10-30 people (respectively) who single-handedly liberate an entire country by defeating all of it's armed forces, armed rednecks, and mutant creatures, with guns that jam every other minute while sneaking around with backpacks that can't partially-unzip.

I guess water can't be squeezed from rocks.
Re: Can this be fixed?[message #327241] Sun, 27 October 2013 23:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3745
Registered:July 2009
Nocturnal
Tais
5.) that is a point that has been discussed a lot, atleast train up the required skills for throwing

This is something that has been bothering me for a long time. Even mercs that should be good at throwing are not.

Why is it that neither enemy soldiers nor militia are affected by this? I've noticed that they can throw roughly twice as far as mercs.
Just how far do you want to throw? I just ran a non-representative series of tests where Fidel's record was 30 tiles to detonation point with a light offensive grenade from a roof, 28 with relatively heavy grenades on even ground. Less well suited mercs still easily beat the 20 tile mark.

[Updated on: Sun, 27 October 2013 23:51] by Moderator



Re: Can this be fixed?[message #327242] Mon, 28 October 2013 00:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3745
Registered:July 2009
Wolf_22
Backpacks never have Boolean outcomes. Believe it or not, you can partially-unzip a backpack to grab something in it without having everything fall out, and yes, even while moving around.
Demonstration with a large 70+L trekking backpack or equivalent please. We could of course add a movement cost penalty that is even worse than re-shouldering.
Wolf_22
But people can lift themselves onto a roof by grabbing and hoisting themselves up with soffit? At any given moment on Earth, every backpack is too heavy to haul up onto a roof, regardless of what's in it, how much it can hold, etc.? What if a building had a ladder or a stairway that led up to a roof? Would it be acceptable then to take a backpack onto a roof?
Distinct lack of ladders and stairs in Arulcan architecture makes this a non-issue.Wolf_22
Maybe we should consider getting with the developers to see if they would be willing to add acquirable components necessary to build pulley systems capable of lugging things like med kits, sniper rifles, et al onto roofs. That way, when someone like Ivan or Shadow need to have something lifted onto a roof, we won't have to make ourselves believe that the soffit will break with their extra backpack weight, even if the only thing in their backpack is a single syringe of Regeneration Booster (heavy, I know)...
Needs animations. Besides, there's the age-old technique of guy-on-the-ground passing the heavy gear up to guy-on-the-roof before climbing up himself. That makes such a feature redundant and pointless.Wolf_22
It's irrelevant because we've already established the fact that you can partially-unzip a backpack at this point.
No, we haven't.
Wolf_22
...
...
Great attitude, any actual remarks on those points?
Wolf_22
Nope. Not walking around with neon lights and a blaring boom box. I was wearing camo, night vision goggles, extended ear, in silent mode, crawling around behind shrubs. The enemy, however, was standing out in the open beside a building that had an entire wall blown-out. Nothing between me and the enemy except 10 squares worth of distance (and a shrub I thought I could hide behind). Yet, every single turn that kept occurring, my guy could never see him unless I took a couple steps closer to the enemy (not just in front of the shrub, but literally 1 additional step beyond this, whereby of course, my APs were exhausted by then).
Night Ops trait?
Wolf_22
Don't be a close-minded fan-boy who can't partially-unzip a backpack.
Don't reiterate the same point 4 times like it means anything.
Wolf_22
Okay, so I guess the consensus is, "...it's more real this way," despite discussing a game that centers around 10-30 people (respectively) who single-handedly liberate an entire country by defeating all of it's armed forces, armed rednecks, and mutant creatures, with guns that jam every other minute while sneaking around with backpacks that can't partially-unzip.
I guess water can't be squeezed from rocks.
The consensus is that backpacks are logistic implements that pay for their large carry capacity by being a nuisance in combat. It's called balance.

[Updated on: Mon, 28 October 2013 01:03] by Moderator



Re: Can this be fixed?[message #327243] Mon, 28 October 2013 01:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Zombiehunter

 
Messages:185
Registered:March 2011
Location: Franconia, Germany
First of all, no soldier will run around with a partially unzipped backpack (speaking RL experience here), because if you do and you have to jump into cover, which might be very possible in a high threat environment, it is very very likely that you will spread the contents of your backpack all over the ground, when doing so. Every soldier who would run around with a partially unzipped backpack, would get his ass kicked by his superiors. Just sayin.

Nobody keeps stuff which he might need in battle in his rucksack, that's what LBE is for. I've never seen anybody putting for example his battle-ready ammo in his rucksack, anyone who does, is not in his right mind (except for extra ammo, to be used to refill the mags after a battle, or during the battle because it drags on for 8 hours) rucksacks are usually for not so important equipment. Think twice about what you put in there, you can't blame anyone but yourself if you put your rifle in the rucksack and then you have to spend 40AP just to get it out.

Next point, you won't see any soldier trying to climb a roof with his backpack on his back, you take the backpack and throw it on the roof, then you climb up yourself. Ingame simulated by, taking off your backpack, placing it in your hands, then you're able to climb the roof.

Then, Grenade throwing, I don't know how far you want to be able to throw a handgrenade, a standard handgrenade weighs almost half a kilo - I kid you not - grenades are to be thrown to a distance of up to 40 metres, but the average distance of throwing a grenade is more likely to be 15-20 metres, if at all.

The enemy hearing you before you see them, I can't reproduce that problem, because I never had that problem, then again, you said you were crawling through the bushes 10 tiles away from the enemy, unless you had a sneaking specialist doing that, I wouldn't be surprised about the enemy noticing you. After all, the enemy was standing there and suddenly he hears rustling in the bushes only 10 tiles (10 metres IIRC) away from him, well he would be a very stupid soldier, if he didn't suspect anything funny going on, especially if this was a warzone, where an ambush is always to be suspected.

Last but not least, welcome to the Forum, but consider changing your tone a bit, because if you keep writing your posts in this demanding, partially insulting style, you won't make much friends in here. Just my 2 cents.

-Zombie
Re: Can this be fixed?[message #327244] Mon, 28 October 2013 01:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wolf_22
Messages:4
Registered:October 2013
DepressivesBrot
Demonstration with a large 70+L trekking backpack or equivalent please.

Why? So that you can admit to being wrong? Seems like you try to play the realism card whenever it's convenient to do so.

DepressivesBrot
We could of course add a movement cost penalty that is even worse than re-shouldering.

At this rate, I can totally see you doing that, if not for game balance then definitely to show all those people around here (who might, heaven forbid, have different opinions, perspectives, and experiences) just who's boss.

DepressivesBrot
Distinct lack of ladders and stairs in Arulcan architecture makes this a non-issue.

How convenient.

DepressivesBrot
Needs animations.

Okay, up to this point, I had thought you were being another cynical, butt-hurt champion... But now? Now I'm not so sure, which is scary...

DepressivesBrot
No, we haven't.

And I'm not at all surprised.

DepressivesBrot
Great attitude, any actual remarks on those points?

Thanks! And no. Smile

DepressivesBrot
Night Ops trait?

Doubtful, due to the sunburn Ivan likely had...

DepressivesBrot
Don't reiterate the same point 4 times like it means anything.

Is 5 times okay? 6?

DepressivesBrot
The consensus is that backpacks are logistic implements that--blah, blah, blah...


It needs to be configurable. Otherwise, it's more of a irritation that no cream can cure.

I'll let you have the last word.
Re: Can this be fixed?[message #327245] Mon, 28 October 2013 01:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wolf_22
Messages:4
Registered:October 2013
Zombiehunter
...but consider changing your tone a bit, because if you keep writing your posts in this demanding, partially insulting style, you won't make much friends in here.


I'm not that desperate but thanks for your words of wisdom.
Re: Can this be fixed?[message #327246] Mon, 28 October 2013 01:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3745
Registered:July 2009
Wolf_22
Why? So that you can admit to being wrong? Seems like you try to play the realism card whenever it's convenient to do so.
No, so you just might -though by now I have serious doubts about your mental capabilities in this regard- realize the difference between a little combat pack and a big backpack when it comes to 'grabbing a bit of stuff on the move'. Also, see Zombie's answer.
Wolf_22
It needs to be configurable. Otherwise, it's more of a irritation that no cream can cure.
It is configurable, you can simply drop the backpack that was never meant to be taken into combat once you go into combat - voila, no penalties.

I won't even dignify the rest of your self-righteous drivel with a detailed response. Behave yourself and cut the oppressed-for-divergent-opinions act or you won't stay here for long.


Re: Can this be fixed?[message #327247] Mon, 28 October 2013 01:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Zombiehunter

 
Messages:185
Registered:March 2011
Location: Franconia, Germany
Wolf_22
DepressivesBrot
Demonstration with a large 70+L trekking backpack or equivalent please.

Why? So that you can admit to being wrong? Seems like you try to play the realism card whenever it's convenient to do so.


One Turn equals something between 5 and 10 seconds, now you tell me how you will find anything in your (probably poorly packed) hiking backpack.


Wolf_22
DepressivesBrot
Distinct lack of ladders and stairs in Arulcan architecture makes this a non-issue.

How convenient.


Well I didn't see you doing any modding work and that's why you have no idea how much work it is to implement such an unnecessary feature in the game. (Considering, I just told you how to haul your poorly packed rucksack onto a roof)

After all you just confirmed my suspicion, of you being just a little know-it-all, having no Real Life experience about that stuff you're talking about (maybe Airsoft or Paintball, but that hardly counts) nor do you have any experience about the modding business considering Jagged Alliance 2, so you might wanna back down a little.

-Zombie
Re: Can this be fixed?[message #327254] Mon, 28 October 2013 08:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Larynx

 
Messages:184
Registered:April 2003
DepressivesBrot
Nocturnal
This is something that has been bothering me for a long time. Even mercs that should be good at throwing are not.

Why is it that neither enemy soldiers nor militia are affected by this? I've noticed that they can throw roughly twice as far as mercs.


Just how far do you want to throw? I just ran a non-representative series of tests where Fidel's record was 30 tiles to detonation point with a light offensive grenade from a roof, 28 with relatively heavy grenades on even ground. Less well suited mercs still easily beat the 20 tile mark.

While trying to measure the distances I was getting in 1.13, I figured out the answer to my question. In vanilla JA2 (1.12), your stance has no effect on throwing distance because you automatically stand when throwing. 1.13 allows you to throw from any stance, and your range is greatly reduced when not standing. Because my mercs are never standing during combat, and because I was not accustomed to manually standing before throwing, I did not realize that stance would affect throwing distance.

So, from a standing position, throwing distances are much more reasonable, I think. I'm still getting a bit less in 1.13 as compared to 1.12, but I don't think it's anything to complain about. Dimitri was getting 21 tiles (maximum distance to red cursor) with a mini grenade in 1.13 compared to 26 in 1.12. While crouched, the distance was more like 14 in 1.13 (which is rarely useful).

What other factors affect throwing distance in 1.13?

Re: Can this be fixed?[message #327257] Mon, 28 October 2013 10:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2632
Registered:May 2009
Looks like some people haven't understood how backpacks work (ingame).

"Unzip" means:

1. Take your backpack off your back and put it on the ground. (That's why the merc goes to crouched stance btw.)
2. Open the backpack. Now you have access to its content.

"Zip" means:

1. Close the backpack.
2. Pick it up and put it on your back.


Once you understand how it works you can easily see some limitations.

1. You can't walk around while your backpack is still on the ground. It won't magically follow you. Wink
2. If you stand up you can't access the backpack anymore because your arms are not long enough.
3. It costs AP to perform the actions.

Simple, isn't it? Smile

The rest has been explained already.
1-3) are working as they should.
4) Could be fixed some day so that it is not possible to attach a suppressor if the pistol is in a small holster.
5) The best throwing distances can only be reached while standing. Don't try to toss a grenade while prone.
6) Enemies use Sun Goggles, NV goggles, Extended Ears and traits too. They can have better NV goggles than you. If the enemy sees you when you see him and he has more experience there is a good chance that he will shoot first.
7) Weapons can jam often when they are in need of repair/cleaning. I turned off the dirt system because jams were to frequent for my taste. Now my weapons usually only jam when I had no time to repair them before battle or if they are overheated.

Re: Can this be fixed?[message #327258] Mon, 28 October 2013 11:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3745
Registered:July 2009
Nocturnal
What other factors affect throwing distance in
1.13?
After a lot of debate, grenades were somewhat unintuitively assigned to Demolitions rather than throwing. I would have to dig up the formula to check for any attributes besides Strength, but I doubt there's more than one tile of additional variance.


Re: Can this be fixed?[message #327259] Mon, 28 October 2013 11:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Elvis_A

 
Messages:275
Registered:December 2012
Location: exUSSR
Wolf_22
I recently installed version 1.13. I'm not sure what the build is or how to find it but the INI Editor is of version 1.5.0.0 (if that helps).

Anyway, I recently played this and I love the additional weapons that have been added. It's clear that a lot of work has gone into this and that's great, however, I found some things that I'm at odds with:

1.) Mercs can't move with an unzipped backpack.
2.) Mercs can't climb onto a roof while wearing back packs.
3.) It takes somewhere around 20 APs just to unzip your back pack just to have access to whatever you have in it and then when it's unzipped, you have to spend another 20-something APs to zip it back up so that you can move again.
4.) Pistols with suppressors can't be holstered unless you attach a suppressor after holstering the pistol each time it needs to be holstered.
5.) Throwing distances have been drastically decreased almost to a point where having grenades isn't worth it.
6.) It's all too common for enemies to see me before I see them for some reason (despite having things like extended ears, night vision goggles, etc.)
7.) Pistols appear to be jamming up way too frequently. I just finished a battle where a P210 9mm pistol jammed--and I kid you not--7 times within the span of 1 minute. You can't tell me that's normal, even on "Experienced."

Can any of these things be edited, tweaked, changed, configured, etc.? Some of these issues come close to being deal-breakers.


2) there is a dirty trick when you put your backpack in your hand and climb on the roof, but my advice - just put on the ground as soon as battle begins so you will not lose APs and pick it up after. There are shortkeys for this:
SHIFT + B Drop backpacks for all mercs in the current sector. (New Inventory Mode only)
CTRL + SHIFT + F Pickup all dropped backpacks (NewInv mode only)

[Updated on: Mon, 28 October 2013 11:21] by Moderator

Re: Can this be fixed?[message #327260] Mon, 28 October 2013 11:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gambigobilla

 
Messages:714
Registered:July 2008
@DepressivesBrot
Throwing a knife and throwing a grenade are not much alike. Knives should fly to target much greater force and accuracy with a straighter path but for grenades speed, impact force and accuracy are meaningless unless you want to lodge your grenade at your opponents chest Very Happy On the other hand, assigning it to demolitions is not right either.

The only solution i can come up is remove grenade throwing range bonuses from traits, increase general throwing range a little bit, let the guy with strong arm throw it. I haven't made an extensive search about it but there are no hand grenade throwing specialists in any army so i don't see any reason why there should be in JA2. But of course this is a game, fans love bonuses, people are used to it, etc,

My name is Gambigobilla and this is my idea :headbanger:
Re: Can this be fixed?[message #327263] Mon, 28 October 2013 12:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3745
Registered:July 2009
Actually, I was going for the angle that chucking grenades doesn't really fit with the overall focus on laying and defusing bombs that the demo trait has. I.e. more 'skilled' tasks compared to throwing something somewhere. So both traits aren't really optimal and the bonus should be moved to applicable backgrounds. While it's not a true specialization, you'll usually find a few people who simply have a knack for it.


Re: Can this be fixed?[message #327265] Mon, 28 October 2013 12:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Asthner

 
Messages:45
Registered:August 2010
Location: Poland, Lodz
Using backgrounds and just attributes seems like a very reasonable direction to go. One more thing I
Re: Can this be fixed?[message #327643] Tue, 05 November 2013 18:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bananarepublic

 
Messages:38
Registered:October 2013
DepressivesBrot
Actually, I was going for the angle that chucking grenades doesn't really fit with the overall focus on laying and defusing bombs that the demo trait has. I.e. more 'skilled' tasks compared to throwing something somewhere. So both traits aren't really optimal and the bonus should be moved to applicable backgrounds. While it's not a true specialization, you'll usually find a few people who simply have a knack for it.


There's also throwing armed explosives (TNT). Where does that fit, if it fits anywhere?
Re: Can this be fixed?[message #327646] Tue, 05 November 2013 18:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gambigobilla

 
Messages:714
Registered:July 2008
Still i'd go for the merc with strong arm. Throwing takes place after arming the explosives so explosives skill is out of the picture and the throwing part is not precision throwing so only throwing range bonus should come from strength attribute.
Re: Can this be fixed?[message #327651] Tue, 05 November 2013 20:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Flugente

 
Messages:3481
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
I'm against moving trait stuff to backgrounds. Those weren't mean to become an alternate skill system. Besides, the AI cannot not get backgrounds and would thus never get that bonus.

Why exactly does 'throwing' not influence 'throwing grenades'? We should simply move that bonus.


Re: Can this be fixed?[message #327670] Wed, 06 November 2013 10:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Starwalker

 
Messages:768
Registered:October 2005
Location: Hannover, Germany
BTW, if I remember correctly, we invented an UI-button to just drop a backpack onto the ground.


Re: Can this be fixed?[message #327674] Wed, 06 November 2013 11:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2632
Registered:May 2009
And that button even works for picking up the backpack again. Very nice for workouts... :whistle:

Re: Can this be fixed?[message #327675] Wed, 06 November 2013 12:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
cnagorneac

 
Messages:185
Registered:April 2012
I have 3 points of view.
First Throwing skill as it is now is mostly for Night operations. So throwing grenades does not fit really.
But on second thought - Who will take Throwing having alternative of Athletics or NightOps. As for me it is now a very unnecessary skill. (I always prefer to use suppressors and have any other trait). But with grenade throwing it will become much better and usefull skill (Ability to throw 2 grenades per turn can not be overestimated).
On third thought. At the moment IMHO throwing trait is completely underrated, But if this change occurs, the same thing will become with Demoilitions. why would we need Demolitions? Any merc with Demolition trait would have no use.
All abovementioned is just my opinion and I will be glad to hear why I am wrong regarding the Demolitions trait that I think useful only because of throwing grenades.
Re: Can this be fixed?[message #327689] Wed, 06 November 2013 18:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bananarepublic

 
Messages:38
Registered:October 2013
Or perhaps those other skills are too good.
Night ops, for instance, has that -3 need to sleep. Being more active/aware at night does not correlate to needing less sleep.
In my opinion, that specific bonus (toned down a bit, perhaps) could be moved to backgrounds.

Cnagorneac brings a good point too.. the demolitions trait has no clear purpose right now:
Not only it helps with throwing grenades - which is the main benefit of this trait, unfortunately it has NOTHING to do with the explosives skill - but also has some minor (kinda useless) explosives skill bonuses inside.

[Updated on: Wed, 06 November 2013 18:28] by Moderator

Re: Can this be fixed?[message #327700] Wed, 06 November 2013 23:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sam Hotte

 
Messages:2005
Registered:March 2009
Location: Middle of Germany
Getting boni for attaching Triggers and being reliably able to plant/disarm bombs and traps (and Networks of them) is not useless for some playing styles ... IMVHO.
Re: Can this be fixed?[message #327701] Wed, 06 November 2013 23:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Larynx

 
Messages:184
Registered:April 2003
cnagorneac
First Throwing skill as it is now is mostly for Night operations. So throwing grenades does not fit really.

Break lights are certainly useful for night operations. Grenades are also excellent at night because they do not give away your position. I would say that thrown grenades are virtually only useful at night because daytime combat generally occurs at ranges beyond which one can throw a grenade.
Re: Can this be fixed?[message #327865] Sun, 10 November 2013 17:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bananarepublic

 
Messages:38
Registered:October 2013
Sam_Hotte
Getting boni for attaching Triggers and being reliably able to plant/disarm bombs and traps (and Networks of them) is not useless for some playing styles ... IMVHO.


I guess.. i have limited explosives experience in ja2 but usually trying to attach detonators to TNT and failing once or twice doesn't have any consequences.

I was thinking more along the lines that explosives skill could be linked to calculating cth on grenade throwing / shooting rifle mounted grenades (along with what is used today),
and then to maintain grenades being useful for the people without it they would receive a small radius bonus, along with a damage nerf.
Because... why do people with heavy weapons get a bonus to explosives skill if it doesn't help with their shooting heavy weapons?
Re: Can this be fixed?[message #327911] Mon, 11 November 2013 00:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
pheloncab

 
Messages:281
Registered:August 2004
Location: So. Cal. or texas
Bananarepublic
Sam_Hotte
Getting boni for attaching Triggers and being reliably able to plant/disarm bombs and traps (and Networks of them) is not useless for some playing styles ... IMVHO.


I guess.. i have limited explosives experience in ja2 but usually trying to attach detonators to TNT and failing once or twice doesn't have any consequences.

I was thinking more along the lines that explosives skill could be linked to calculating cth on grenade throwing / shooting rifle mounted grenades (along with what is used today),
and then to maintain grenades being useful for the people without it they would receive a small radius bonus, along with a damage nerf.
Because... why do people with heavy weapons get a bonus to explosives skill if it doesn't help with their shooting heavy weapons?


I thought the bonus was because Heavy weapons training usually included some information on explosives, and how they work, and what works best even if many of the heavy weapons aren't available in the game for balance purposes.
Re: Can this be fixed?[message #328196] Fri, 15 November 2013 05:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bananarepublic

 
Messages:38
Registered:October 2013
Yeah i suppose.
(although, going from that logic, being a heavy weapons expert - and thus dealing with explosive ammunition - might just increase your explosives knowledge because it helps you with shooting explosive ammunition somehow? [knowing how they work & how they explode & their aerodynamic, in depth])

But in retrospect, it probably wasn't such a great idea and has probably been discussed before..
Re: Can this be fixed?[message #328216] Fri, 15 November 2013 20:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
pheloncab

 
Messages:281
Registered:August 2004
Location: So. Cal. or texas
Something like that...

Also we have to remember that many things started based on the original Vanilla game and the limits of 1990s computing and balance.

Re: Can this be fixed?[message #328229] Sat, 16 November 2013 13:16 Go to previous message
sevenfm

 
Messages:2086
Registered:December 2012
Location: Russian Federation
Quote:
5.) Throwing distances have been drastically decreased almost to a point where having grenades isn't worth it.


As for grenade throwing, standing soldier with full health, full BP and effective strengh of 80 can throw mini grenade (300g) at 21 tile.
Super-soldier with strengh 100 and demolitions trait will be able to throw it at 30 tiles, and that is the range of AR's and grenade launchers.

Throwing range is reduced a lot when your merc is wounded or tired, so i think we can discuss lowering of that penalties or just assume that mercs need to have rest (or drink vodka water) and be healed.


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