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static guns[message #329950] Thu, 23 January 2014 23:14 Go to next message
Nasenbaer is currently offline Nasenbaer

 
Messages:36
Registered:July 2013
Location: Germany
Hi folks,

I have some notes to the discussion concerning the static-guns. Flugente and Maalstroom spoke about it here:
http://www.bears-pit.com/board/ubbthreads.php/topics/329947/Re:_Pending_Feature:_Increased.html#Post329947

Since it does not match to the thread there, I allowed myself to start a new one.

I think there could be a way to implement such a feature (with some limitations)

Here the idea:
There is an item that represents a Heavy Machinegun and the attendant ammo in

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Private 1st Class
Re: static guns[message #329952] Fri, 24 January 2014 00:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot is currently offline DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3658
Registered:July 2009
For something requiring as much work as this, I'm sure there'd be room for less messy handling on the user side.

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Captain

Re: static guns[message #329953] Fri, 24 January 2014 01:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Khor1255 is currently offline Khor1255

 
Messages:1817
Registered:August 2003
Location: Pleasantville, NJ
This has been talked about before and if I remember correctly the animations for it were the main sticking point.

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Sergeant Major
Re: static guns[message #329978] Fri, 24 January 2014 20:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lockie is currently offline lockie

 
Messages:3721
Registered:February 2006
Location: Scotland
Hey Dan , my recollections are the anims had been done , but a lot of work to code . Sure I saw a working gun emplacement a couple of years back :headscratch:

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Captain

Re: static guns[message #329979] Fri, 24 January 2014 20:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot is currently offline DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3658
Registered:July 2009
There's one set of anims for a big guy with GPMG on tripod, so we're at the least lacking normal dudes and gals for a clean implementation.

As to what's the main sticking point:
Most of the time we have coders around who could potentially make this happen if they focused a significant amount of time and effort on it while there are rarely any animators around that will finish whatever they began. So yes, animations are a major issue but this feature still wouldn't happen overnight if someone provided them.

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Captain

Re: static guns[message #329980] Fri, 24 January 2014 21:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Maalstroom is currently offline Maalstroom

 
Messages:340
Registered:December 2008
Location: en route to San Hermanos
after 10th of February I'm kind of free. I'm an architect, ofcourse I'm working mostly on 3d objects to represent my projects but I'll give it a try. The good news are that I'm not going anywhere the bad news are that I'm mostly busy with real projects which take lots of time and thinking...
you can see some of my now already built works here:
https://www.facebook.com/ulrich.heine.x/media_set?set=a.614963535234619.1073741830.100001629347043&type=3

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Master Sergeant
Re: static guns[message #329988] Sat, 25 January 2014 02:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Khor1255 is currently offline Khor1255

 
Messages:1817
Registered:August 2003
Location: Pleasantville, NJ
Though labor intensive, animations for this game aren't really hard if you start with a stock animation and just modify it. Of course you have to do it frame by frame and it gets wonky if you change the size of any individual panel but you can adjust this with the xy coords tool in STI Edit.

I tried to make a better parachute animation but since it required increasing the size of the parachute the only way it could have been implemented is if I could have changed the tile it drops you onto to one near the bottom of the screen instead of near the top.

But for a static gun I would recommend just using a crouching rifle animation then crafting the static weapon into the frame.


I lost some really cool underwater insertion animations and other crap I had when I did a reinstall years back. Now since my only real computer is loaded with Win 8 turdorama I can't even run the image editing software I own. I tried a few other editors but they are just too limiting and each frame takes forever.

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Sergeant Major
Re: static guns[message #329992] Sat, 25 January 2014 13:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Maalstroom is currently offline Maalstroom

 
Messages:340
Registered:December 2008
Location: en route to San Hermanos
ok I took a look in the sti files and I've compared the static gun animation for the big body with _CR_AIM.Sti and the new file is the old file with a static gun added to it, you can all compare the files. just extract all the anims from the anims.slf and export all the bmps from the mentioned sti and them make a comparison i gimp or photoshop. I'll try to do the same thing for the female and normal body till the end of February starting 14-15th.

till then I'll be around.

the woman hitting with the rifle is based on F_PUNCH.sti so the rest will go the same way.

[Updated on: Sat, 25 January 2014 14:11] by Moderator

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Master Sergeant
Re: static guns[message #330012] Sat, 25 January 2014 20:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Khor1255 is currently offline Khor1255

 
Messages:1817
Registered:August 2003
Location: Pleasantville, NJ
Bravo. That's how you get it done.

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Sergeant Major
Re: static guns[message #330030] Sun, 26 January 2014 13:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Maalstroom is currently offline Maalstroom

 
Messages:340
Registered:December 2008
Location: en route to San Hermanos
Flug hope you see this and you'll reply.

firing from the hip is relevant because as you said what the merc sees and what gun sees is different. Static guns can work on the same principle, but as i've seen so far in the animated gif posted by sandro a few yeas ago in this thread:

http://www.ja-galaxy-forum.com/board/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=279450

the merc is actualy aiming the gun, the gun and mercs eyes are at the same level. so the only thing that has to be done once the animations are ready is the magic work of your hands - coding Smile). Btw there are some animation for looking through binoculars, as far as I know, that should be linked to your spotter code.

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Master Sergeant
Re: static guns[message #330034] Sun, 26 January 2014 15:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Flugente

 
Messages:3509
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
I probably should have clarified a few things. Okay then:

Hip firing is a different aiming mode. When using it, you don't use any scopes/sights on the gun, and receive a hefty malus to cth. The bonus is that the AP-cost is lowered significantly - one quickly fires relatively unaimed in the general direction of the enemy. But all the cth functions still work the same way. The gun animation simply indicates we aim differently, but we don't :laugh:

Static guns are different. First of all, what I always assumed to be obvious is that a static gun is still on the map if nobody operates it. It is a structure on the map. One cannot simply pick it up, once cannot move through it, and it can be fired at/damaged. Like a crate, or a door, or a barrel. The new thing about static guns would be that a soldier can interact with it - he can operate it and fire it. If you envision static guns to be different, then your idea might actually doable - but as I don't know it, I'll now outline why my idea isn't possible at the moment. This might be a long bit of explanation, be warned :sign:

The 'structure part' is one of the main problems of the entire thing. Obviously, we don't have any map structures that are static guns. Those can be created however - smeag creates lots of new stuff, like vehicles, trees and whatnot for his maps. But: We cannot use those in maps already in existence. Period. This is the reason the fortification feature works only a few some vanilla maps but in all of smeag's bigmaps: Most vanilla maps don't have that structure. If you order the game to build a sandbag in a map that does not have that tile, the game will either build nothing or something else. Like a dishwasher, or part of a wall. The map simply does not know what a 'sandbag' is. Smeag wisely added the sandbag tiles to his bigmaps even before it was implemented, so you can go wild with fortifications there. And many vanilla maps are pretty full, so we can't just add new tiles there.
What has been tried quite a few time in the last years, but never fully successfully, was to make maps able to 'know' structures they weren't build with. We once came close, but the added structures were only there graphically, but had no shadow, doors couldn't be opened etc.. In my view solving this would be a major milestone in JA2 modding. Solving this would lead to a myriad of cool mod ideas and greatly improved maps. Like being able to fortify everything, which much more selection. It would allow the player to 'build' his HQ. Add infirmary wherever you want. Build a camp in the desert. Use pows and conscripts to build an airstrip. Build roads. I'm sure you get the picture :venus:

Now no the aiming and firing. Lets assume we have an static gun in a map. Now, how does a merc interact with it? He'll crouch behind it and then do what? Current interaction with tiles is simple - we can open or close a crate or a door. But we want to aim, shoot and reload a static MG. First, structures do not have a gun assigned to them. I'd hack that by 'hiding' a 'handler' gun that represents the MG. But when do we access it? Easiest would be to give a merc the 'handler gun' when he has free hands and is behind the MG, and remove it if he moves away (similar to weapon mounting - the property only shows up on certain conditions, and is removed immediately if the condition is no longer fulfilled).

We can fire the 'handler gun'. But wait! We want the MG itself to fire!. That's bad. There are no structures that can fire. Easiest way would be to create a special animation where the operating soldier also causes the muzzle flash. If we overlay that over the gun, it creates the illusion that the gun itself fires.
How do we aim and fire? This is a new problem, as the gun we 'fire' is not at the same position as the soldier that fires it. We might be able to see a target, but there might be no direct line of fire from the gun - it might be obstructed by wall etc.. This is very bad. We would have to account for this in all cth calculations - aiming and firing might happen from 2 different locations. Both for OCTH and NCTH, as people will cry bloody murder if we do otherwise :hmm:

A somewhat heretical idea would be to instead use one of the 65k new soldierslots for the gun. Then we'd have no problem with the map structure restrictions and the cth calculations. I previously said that this was the way to go for sentries, so what's the problem?
I can only warn very intently of this. A sentry is basically a soldier that does nothing except shooting if it sees someone. A static MG is something completely different. It is not an 'actor'. It would have to be removed from all soldier handling, AI calculations etc. etc.. Also, we then have the problem that we do not know how to even fire it. Especially not the AI.

I am not trying to stop you from making animations, far from it. This game desperately needs that. Perhaps someone else already has an idea for a much easier implementation of static guns that would work with that. I sure don't. :whoknows:

[Updated on: Sun, 26 January 2014 15:33] by Moderator

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Captain

Re: static guns[message #330036] Sun, 26 January 2014 16:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Maalstroom is currently offline Maalstroom

 
Messages:340
Registered:December 2008
Location: en route to San Hermanos
Your thinking is "hervorragend" as always Smile, but flug, I think the people want the 5th animation from this link

http://www.ja-galaxy-forum.com/board/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=279450

implemented in the game, just as Nasenbaer said. Nothing fancy, it should work for the beginning just like any other animation, like firing a gun from crouched position or like firing a mortar. Again noting fancy just effective against your 256 enemies dropping in in massive counter attack, just till all the things you've just pointed are going to be done. It would be just some beautiful cosmetics Smile)

[Updated on: Sun, 26 January 2014 17:02] by Moderator

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Master Sergeant
Re: static guns[message #330037] Sun, 26 January 2014 17:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Flugente

 
Messages:3509
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
So... all you want is for MGs to somehow suddenly use an entirely different firing animation when crouching,for no apparent reason? Which would have nothing to do with static MGs?

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Captain

Re: static guns[message #330038] Sun, 26 January 2014 17:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot is currently offline DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3658
Registered:July 2009
Find a nice low wall, ramp the mounting bonus up to 100% of prone and be done with it. Will give you instant results compared to lobbying for weeks for a feature that's not going to happen anytime soon.

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Captain

Re: static guns[message #330039] Sun, 26 January 2014 17:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Maalstroom is currently offline Maalstroom

 
Messages:340
Registered:December 2008
Location: en route to San Hermanos
no flug, what I'm saying is that some MGs should be fired only from crouched position using this animation. Some of them are so heavy that you can't aim them from standing position and some of them are so hard to handle that you need a tripod to hold them in place and fire them.

https://www.google.ro/search?q=tripod+machine+gun&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=oCvlUqvkKMvMswbsxIHQDg&sqi=2&ved=0CCUQsAQ&biw=1152&bih=765
Smile
http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/vickers-machine-gun-on-a-tripod-circa-1912-news-photo/83394551
http://www.sangam.org/2009/05/images/TigersinAkkaraayan2008.jpg
http://en.academic.ru/pictures/enwiki/50/220px-MG3_Tripod.JPEG
http://www.firstlegionltd.com/gerstal023germanmg34tripodmountedmachinegunteam.aspx

mercs can carry such a gun but shouldn't be able to use them without assembling them, pros bigger fire power cons merc being exposed to sniping...

It's better to make a small step in the right direction than no step at all. I you say no, it's going to be a no an I'm gonna to stop arguing.

Dupri good luck finding such a nice low wall in the middle of nowhere like in some farm lands in AIMNAS.

[Updated on: Sun, 26 January 2014 18:08] by Moderator

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Master Sergeant
Re: static guns[message #330041] Sun, 26 January 2014 18:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot is currently offline DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3658
Registered:July 2009
Make one then. Either you have time to prepare a position or you're attacking and wouldn't use a HMG anyway.

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Captain

Re: static guns[message #330042] Sun, 26 January 2014 18:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Maalstroom is currently offline Maalstroom

 
Messages:340
Registered:December 2008
Location: en route to San Hermanos
Dupri are you always having such a negative point of view? Smile

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Master Sergeant
Re: static guns[message #330043] Sun, 26 January 2014 18:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Deleted.

 
Messages:2663
Registered:December 2012
Location: Russian Federation
NightOps mod has heavy MG (Kord) similar to what Maalstroom speaks of.
Firing only when crouched, needs AP for preparing etc.

[Updated on: Sat, 03 January 2015 22:39]

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Lieutenant

Re: static guns[message #330044] Sun, 26 January 2014 18:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gorro der Grüne is currently offline Gorro der Grüne

 
Messages:1448
Registered:March 2009
Location: Broadwurschd-City
Maalstroom
Dupri are you always having such a negative point of view? Smile


he is extremly friendly today :innocent:


*duck(barberie)&cover*

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Sergeant Major
Re: static guns[message #330046] Sun, 26 January 2014 18:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Maalstroom is currently offline Maalstroom

 
Messages:340
Registered:December 2008
Location: en route to San Hermanos
I'm going to install night ops... Smile to see what anims I can rip from there Smile)

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Master Sergeant
Re: static guns[message #330048] Sun, 26 January 2014 18:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot is currently offline DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3658
Registered:July 2009
Maalstroom
Dupri are you always having such a negative point of view? Smile
Are you dyslexic or do you just refuse to spell my name right?

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Captain

Re: static guns[message #330049] Sun, 26 January 2014 18:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Deleted.

 
Messages:2663
Registered:December 2012
Location: Russian Federation
@Maalstroom you can also ask Arulcish Lion here on forum, as he is official representative of NO and Metavira team.

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Lieutenant

Re: static guns[message #330050] Sun, 26 January 2014 18:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Maalstroom is currently offline Maalstroom

 
Messages:340
Registered:December 2008
Location: en route to San Hermanos
You're so funny depressivebrot. Now I get your personality... better. Smile) but I'd rather be dyslexic.. Smile)

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Master Sergeant
Re: static guns[message #330062] Sun, 26 January 2014 23:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Maalstroom is currently offline Maalstroom

 
Messages:340
Registered:December 2008
Location: en route to San Hermanos
just checked night ops - all three animations are already done. M_hmg.sti F_hmg.sti S_hmg.sti. they are working fine in the game so i still don't get why this thing wasn't imported in the main trunk, the roll animation and crouched grenade throwing are in, so why was this skipped??? there are a lot of good things in a lot of mods but somehow they simply don't get to be included in...

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Master Sergeant
Re: static guns[message #330071] Mon, 27 January 2014 06:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Hawkeye is currently offline Hawkeye

 
Messages:2414
Registered:October 2005
Location: Australia
Maalstroom
after 10th of February I'm kind of free. I'm an architect, ofcourse I'm working mostly on 3d objects to represent my projects but I'll give it a try. The good news are that I'm not going anywhere the bad news are that I'm mostly busy with real projects which take lots of time and thinking...
you can see some of my now already built works here:
https://www.facebook.com/ulrich.heine.x/media_set?set=a.614963535234619.1073741830.100001629347043&type=3


-This content is currently unavailable- got a working link?

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Lieutenant

Re: static guns[message #330075] Mon, 27 January 2014 10:18 Go to previous message
Maalstroom is currently offline Maalstroom

 
Messages:340
Registered:December 2008
Location: en route to San Hermanos
this works
http://www.flickr.com/photos/115595412@N02/

these are from some years back when I was making the arch viz too, now it's not the case anymore... Smile

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Master Sergeant
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