Home » MODDING HQ 1.13 » v1.13 General Development Talk » Playing unstable 6023 ! Comments
| Playing unstable 6023 ! Comments[message #329958]
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Fri, 24 January 2014 05:12 
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 dravak |
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Messages:38
Registered:August 2010 |
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1 awesome work on the mod and progress .
All praises and love , but sadly combat has become a joke >.<
The new tohit , is essentially breaking the game and AI !
It is sad that am not able to burst hit with a M4 3 square away .
with 95 aim .
but fine badluck happens , scope seems to be "balanced"
But what is more sad that AI elite troops can't hit the broadside of the barn .
The AI cause of the new tohit calculation needing scopes to be eh marginal functioning.
Basically has become a walkover .
While they are a lot smarter , players missing seems to apply to them too .
Let say seen AI fire more then 20 shots only to have 1 shot connect .
More often then not it is understandable they run forth and back !
Cause there is almost no way for them to hit !
Only ones hitting are snipers and people with scopes !
So basically the new to hit is borked up , am playing on expert level .
Instead of playing jagged alliance 2 , am playing jagged scopes battle !
Infact it is easier to just run in and melee them to death >.<
When surrounded by 3 Elite NPC (blackshirt) . They seem to miss 75% of there shots.
Maybe later on they are more deadly when higher accuracy weapons come into play .
But currently let say the game isn't exciting this way , every fight running trough 3-8 full clips of ammo , it seems only ones hitting stuff are gunslingers with dual wielding .
My assault rifles , my pistols , my rifles .. Unless very small circles .
Are more often missing then not . So I can imagine the AI having even more problems hitting me .
Anyway to rebalance that so it becomes eh gun duels , instead of scope and melee duels ?
Will try next game old to hit chances again . But new really seems to feel danger I need to get within 10 squares .
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| Re: Playing unstable 6023 ! Comments[message #329966]
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Fri, 24 January 2014 07:37 
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| dravak |
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Messages:38
Registered:August 2010 |
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Anyway to give elites higher resistance to suppressions .
part of the game balance is those black shirts need to be feared !
And ammo is difficult to get , now was using so much ammo just to suppress them .
It really didn't feel like jagged alliance 2 , it felt like endgame where everybody had unlimited ammo !
So we just rock and roll , instead of early game where AI had the numeric superiority .
And player struggle with ammo and cash to get reliable weapons .
Problem is that now it feels like both AI and Players are playing a new game .
Called get close to spot for snipers and melee it out .
Suppression is infact too effective against both players and AI !
Coupled with shooting being ineffective , that it is beter to rush in and melee >.< (who ever tought bring fist and knives to a gun battle wasn't efficient)
The Elite AI also agrees with me , so does the same tactic , infact both of us are meleeing it out .
in the past once , we both gotten within 4-5 squares was , somebody was dead from shots .
Now it is why bother shooting with those ods , melee with the same AP achieves garantee kill !
Same as Elite AI is missing the 10 square shots , if Elited are missing those shots against people in the open (same as the player ) imagine those behind cover >.<
The changes to the NCTH are great , but somehow it is unbalancing the gameplay .
Bringing back the AI to the same level as players is ok for redshirts , but yellow should be tougher and elites should be feared .
Now it feels like playing something else , with abyssmal shooting till getting scopes !
I know part of the problem is people want more challenge , but nerfing the AI like this (I know it is unintended)
Makes the gameplay not jagged alliance anymore .
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| Re: Playing unstable 6023 ! Comments[message #329968]
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Fri, 24 January 2014 08:12
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| dravak |
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Messages:38
Registered:August 2010 |
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I agree with the no easy headshots 
That is 100% more enjoyable , but when torso shots starts to miss and all my games are new install .
I am installing this new revision on a new game like it should .
But both AI and my merc are missing on torso shots , the ones who are hitting reliable (if there is such a thing as reliable  ) are the ones with scopes .
I put in max aiming allowed on iron sight from 10 tiles (100 meters) so put in double the AP to see the shot on torso miss more often then not , the AI is having the same difficulty ,
Thus leading to wild burst fires , cause of beating the RNG .
here have them full in the open at 18 tiles , so flanked there position .
Took 5 turns to hit something , AI couldn't hit me cause was behind cover so didn't bother to shoot , no position for it to run cause of being flanked both ways .
It should charge forward ! Now it just hangs around doing nothing , my shots are ineffective too !
But as player you simply gamble .
Am not saying NCTH is bad , infact not sadly it breaks the AI in too many ways , but let try this update and will give conclusion after two days of gaming
To see if this one is beter or not . So all this is based on the old revision and playtrough .
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| Re: Playing unstable 6023 ! Comments[message #329969]
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Fri, 24 January 2014 08:26
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| Deleted. |
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Messages:2663
Registered:December 2012
Location: Russian Federation |
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You can see here how NCTH performs with new revision and recommended ini settings and decide if that is acceptable:
[Updated on: Mon, 27 January 2014 08:27] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Playing unstable 6023 ! Comments[message #329974]
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Fri, 24 January 2014 17:44
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| dravak |
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Messages:38
Registered:August 2010 |
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Ok >.< this is how am testing , am charging towards the enemy with different weapons , even at square 3 away .
My aim 95 is missing the orange small with 1-2 aiming circle .
Fine happens , wait AI red shirts can't hit with there pistol either so runs away .
Yellow shirt seems to function fine , it is red shirt and black shirts , that have abbysmal to hit .
Sure players to hit is ridiculous but it can be solved with scopes !
but how do AI handle it ?
Now edited a variety of weapons , but tohit seems way off that AI is acting ridiculous stupid !
(cause it cannot hit the broadside of the barn )
So just use move and fire , don't stand from pre arranged position to test .
Since AI is also moving and firing to assault people position .
So mixed encounter fights , it doesn't matter if you win or lose , cause if AI is acting this way cause it cannot hit !
It really doesn't feel like jagged allance .
Already boosted elite and regular aim up to 20-30 , still they can't hit reliable with there weapons .
Now all shot are taken against the torso (no aiming for head or legs) with 1-2 aim clicks extra .
difficulty is expert . So have a variety of troops to fight against from red yellow and black shirt all mixed up .
Nothing additional but Jag 1,13 with the latest patch on top of revision 6763 + 6817 .
Ok enough doom and gloom
The work additionally is superb and fun , each patch more fun things added .
Is it cause of some bugs in the aiming setting from items and combinations ?
Sadly the AI needs to represent a challenge or else it is a bit pointless
But will try old to hit system to see if the game brings a challenge on expert .
Cause love the work done so far , the new to hit circle is awesome . Sadly something is bit messed up .
Or is that AI is restricted on day 1-3 ? Thus making the shooting seems like pointless waste of ammo .
Or is there still some codes of weapon familiarity left ?
Honestly don't know at this point going to try a old to hit setting test .
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| Re: Playing unstable 6023 ! Comments[message #330017]
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Sat, 25 January 2014 23:59
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| dravak |
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Messages:38
Registered:August 2010 |
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Ok using the new tohit and AI , seems to be working at base ironsight 20 .
They seem to charge forward again , instead of hunkering down .
Sadly both them and me are playing a miss and shoot game , lets say missing and hitting is ridiculous .
When less then 20% of the shots connects , and misses within 5 squares are ridiculously high .
Assault rifles seems to miss as much as there pistols within the same range ,
Only one reliable is a gunfighter with ambidextrous , they seem to just get orange circles with 1-2 aim
Oh I finally saw a green circle with a 7xscope and reflex sight at 3 square away >.< !
Well lets say the new to hit system needs a lot of work , but it is funny tough .
It seems like a new game , even with scope 7x , scope 2x reflex sight and tier 3 weapons .
I am not hitting stuff at all above 20%
Sadly this leads to a melee , grenade and aoe game , which I do not like (don't like mass destrution) .
So I have to give up on this new to hit system , while I love the reticle work and love the usages of ammo !
And really tried to love it cause of the work put into it .
I don't understand how a assault rifle can get red circle at 5 square away !
Old to hit system some shots were bugged , so the graphic bar represented those shots .
But I just took a couple step closer or move a beter position , to get. Hit !
with the new system , I cannot differential the bugged shots from the none bugged shots .
Other then the occassional orange circles (probaly means 50% chance to hit)
So I really tried , AI is working fine now , with mass charges .
Test Area use expert , just create some mercs , instead of going to meet Miguel , go to San Mona straight away !
you will be ambushed and they usually call reinforcement , so you will notice the difference right away old to hit system !
And new to hit system ! , old you get a bit clobbered , new system the amount of misses are ridiculous !
that the ambush now even with working AI , seems in effective .
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| Re: Playing unstable 6023 ! Comments[message #330020]
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Sun, 26 January 2014 01:59
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| Off_Topic |
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Messages:999
Registered:January 2009 |
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Combat is something that needs more attention, not just with NCTH, playing the latest builds over the last few years it has slowly lost that JA feeling.
Firefights are seriously lacking something, I've read your posts here and I'm really not informed enough to pin point what it is that's missing. Obviously a lot of features have been added, which is great, but when something as basic as the combat is messed up, that should be the priority.
My own observations during an OCTH firefight early game:
Taunting inadvertently shows you where hidden enemies are.
The hit % bar is there for show, Enemy/Mercs can't hit shit. There was a time i used to hit the "F" key in order to see if i could move into a better firing spot.
You know that feeling of finding/stealing a decent rifle in the early game? Yes! I can finally engage at range, Marksman 98, Muhahaha! These redshirts won't know what hit them!!! Wrong... empty entire clip and get one soldier cowering shouting insults at me.
Interrupt at point blank with a shotgun full of buckshot, woohoo!... what? how did he miss that...
All these features like enemy reinforcements, zombies, suppression, DCA, etc... are great, but they are pointless until the combat gets taken care of.
Maybe it is just down to iron sight settings, but the early game used to be be my favourite part, now it's just a chore.
All these new features/INI settings need to revolve around how they affect gameplay, especially combat.
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| Re: Playing unstable 6023 ! Comments[message #330021]
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Sun, 26 January 2014 02:26
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| Deleted. |
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Messages:2663
Registered:December 2012
Location: Russian Federation |
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Last time i played with OCTH, i was disappointed. Can't say if it's broken, but i didn't like that experience.
NCTH is different story. It was supposed to move accent in firefights to suppression, and it definitely works as intended. Fighting with outnumbering enemies is challenging, they can easily suppress you from distance and then you're dead, if your teammates cannot help.
Still, good merc with right traits and decent rifle can reliably hit enemies at medium distance even in the beginning stage of game, even with iron scopes.
If you don't like increased bullets-to-hit ratio (supposed to be around 20 by it's creator), just make iron sights more effective, use handling corrections for shotguns etc. You can play usual headshot game if you change maximum aperture size. Shotguns are deadly effective in early game with their suppression ability.
One thing in NCTH that needs analysis is that sometimes random is strange. For example, too much extremely lucky shots at extreme distances, while at short range you miss too often. Probably some issues with random calculations, needs code review.
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| Re: Playing unstable 6023 ! Comments[message #330022]
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Sun, 26 January 2014 04:57
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| dravak |
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Messages:38
Registered:August 2010 |
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Listen it is not that NTC is broken it is different playstyle , with different rules !
Am testing both firefights on expert , sadly both OTC and NTC doesn't get near the experience I was used too .
Now OTC mid game is way too easy , cause boyaah headshots headshots .
NTC makes headshot difficult , even geared up to the max (which is a goodthing) sadly NTC makes early gameplay ridiculous not jagged alliance .
We moved too much stuff into items , a common failure of modern day gaming !
the balance has now shifted more to items then character , take example a marksman 50 give him the best load out !
And a marksman 95 with the best load out , the difference is so small .
So why invest into more expensive mercs , both can't hit the broad side of the barn with the normal equipment !
We need scopes , since when do mercenary need scopes ? They have to do with what they get .
To there best of abilities .
Since when is militia beter then mercs ? If militia were that good , then why waste so much money hiring mercs ?
Just hire only trainers .
While I love the progress , something must be done in combat , to bring back the RPG , the tension , the fire fights .
A middle ground must be found between OTC and NTC !
That doesn't lead to exploitive behaviour like , why bother buying guns without scope , just bring grenades and pistols !
AI doesn't hit squat till later on , neither does the player !
So sure we can all modify the game till we find the right challenge .
But part of early game was the struggle for stability , the challenge and hope that you will get enough money to hire beter mercs , not oh I don't need beter mercs , I need SCOPES and LAM and rifles !
Now stomp made it more exciting , cause it offered diversity in skills (even if that diversity was a nerf in to hit rating )
Scopes gives too much hit rating without really a penalty , it should be moved back to iron sights !
So AI can function again , so they are agressive again without borderline overwhelming players .
In OTC sure it is cheesy headshots , but when ambushed atleast you feel you going to die , so you want your turn !
your interrupts , your cover .
In NTC it feels like when it is your turn , it is fighting against missing your shots !
sure once you are equiped out to beat NTC misses And get reliable orange and rare greens,then sadly it becomes like ok , the AI can't hit the broad side of the barn so it is turkey shoot again !
I liked wildfire cause it was hard to take Drassenden in day 1 , cause half my people were wounded !
I want a firefight to be causing wounds if I missed at 10 tiles (fluke or not) not both side misses at 10 tiles for 3-4 round .
Is there a way to balance that AI is still agressive but both side atleast have a 40-60% hit ratio , not like NTC now a 20%
I really see the effort put into NTC , sure I can individual organise the weapons .
But I rather have power shifted back to the AI and mercs , in the end we are playing a mercenary game .
Not a items management , maybe NTC is good for mid and endgame .
But seems the early game already showed what is messed up , the AI and items being overpowered , the merc itself isn't important anymore .
People are nerfing the simple things that made you take mercs , but nobody is really rebalancing the items !
so in the end , who really cares about what makes shadow ,scope , lynx so legendary .
Not the stats anymore , not the character , nope just did they have a scope set up or not ?
That feels totally wrong !
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| Re: Playing unstable 6023 ! Comments[message #330028]
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Sun, 26 January 2014 13:47
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| dravak |
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Messages:38
Registered:August 2010 |
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first I added scopes and lam , now am changing stuff making the range back to 100 again .
Sorry when people misses at 3 square away , when the reticle is all green !
It is ridiculous , what you are saying reminds me of a youtube movie in afghanistan !
Where a SAW operator wasted 300 rounds at shooting air , just to supress !
At this rate , you have to carry 1000 round of ammo !
Sorry shooting at people is never easy , sadly the longer you are in the hotzone , the more second nature you get for hitting moving targets !
Once you get past that point of when your number is up , it is up .
You start focusing , and hitting somebody at 100 meters with enough time to aim is becoming regular .
Maybe people didn't know there were wars before wars with scope !
Still are wars being fought without scopes , maybe reminder enemies don't have scopes !
So are our troops trained worst then the enemies ? Offcourse not they are trained to the max , and scope are additional bonus to make sure they get a first burst/shot kills .
Looking trough the config of CTH , the aim can never exceed the skill of the operator .
Why the scope suddenly becomes necessary , is that it exceeds CTH max skill .
All the penalty is taken on the toon and action of the toon , scope just cheesy negate the handicap .
by making shots shortrange , by adding more bonus .
Example Aim too close why is it only -4 !
when aim high morale only gives 1 ?
Aim upwards give -20 !
Worst is all armour give more penalty then aim too close !
WTF ?
So aiming too close with scopes gives less penalty then wearing flak jacket ?
going to go trough the ini now , seriously if you want 20% hitrating and realisme , it shouldn't be trough scopes !
definetly not without serious penalties !
wearing x10 scope at short range only -4 ?
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| Re: Playing unstable 6023 ! Comments[message #330033]
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Sun, 26 January 2014 15:11
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| dravak |
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Messages:38
Registered:August 2010 |
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Ok maybe am a bit harsh , but basically AI is functioning again , does not need change visible range !
they are smarter ,infact the AI has a sever problem with tohit cause of all the penalties , which are too sever .
The penalties are divided into items , moving , aiming , cover etc . And skill capped !
Since AI has a certain skill marksman like our mercs , they can't hit squat !
Change to visible range is to make nightfighting exciting again !
So have a too easy time fighting at night increase the visible range .
Now AI is functioning again , am trying to make merc functioning again , so they do not need all those fancy weapons and scopes lam and batteries , cause in solving that , it also makes the AI more dangerous without looking like cheesing .
Jagged Alliance reason you wanted beter weapons was RANGE and Damage !
Now you got beter weapon , it doesn't feel like range and damage . It feels like firing pistols but paying more action points to ready and fire them .
Now AI aim can go higher like insane showed .
Also the taunts , there were in a build , but taken out cause it was stupid , it revealed the enemy position .
So they were sneaking up on your scope person or spot your scope person first .
Now they just give players warning negating the penalty of vision !
sorry all this NCTH discussion showed , that while all the upgrades and work are great !
There is a sever balance issue in the basic part of the game , the combat !
The combat in Jagged Alliance was sandbox ! Sandbox in the meaning people could make up there own tactic !
Want to go pure melee ? Sure your choice , the enemy going to pulverise you , but still doable cause of stealth and shandro stomp agility skill .
Want to sneak around killing people with headshot , sure it is possible , so is stealing there weapons .
Want to make snipers who headshot people ? Sure also possible .
Want to make machinegunner who spread lead all over the place , sure if you got the economy and STR to carry the ammo .
Want to hipshot or run and gun style combat , also possible make sure you have high aim mercenaries
Now it seems we are forced into playing with scopes and lam and batteries !
Or against a AI that is severly handicapped , that it is a choir , with weapons like rifles meaningless , SMG meaningless .
everything has to be bought or edited .
Now I think I said enough , didn't come here to have a fight with people , infact I love how much the jagged alliance has progressed , and how much work people put into there mods .
For me to enjoy the game this much , even crazy zombies cyborgs etc .
Sadly I was dissapointed at the combat , the main element that attracted me to this game and tons of others .
Combat with RPG growth and sandbox envoirement !
Will fix the ini and see if it becomes acceptable to me again , but by testing and changing stuff .
I remember why I stopped playing again so many years back 
It feelt like work , and spent more time in the editors and ini , then actually enjoying this marvelous piece of work !
I mean it even with the discussion feeling harsh , this work is really marvelous .
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| Re: Playing unstable 6023 ! Comments[message #330040]
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Sun, 26 January 2014 18:06
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| Deleted. |
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Messages:2663
Registered:December 2012
Location: Russian Federation |
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1. 1.13 combat system definitely needs good testing and balancing, but nobody wants to do it.
After all, base 1.13 is supposed to be a platform for mods, and in mentioned Overhaul and AFS some efforts were taken for balancing things.
2. Agree that scopes in NCTH are probably overpowered. This was discussed many times, problem is that whole NCTH thing is built around scopes and their magnification.
Maybe it would make sense to limit scope effectiveness for mercs with low mrk, in reality it's not easy to use high-power scopes without special training and experience, especially at long ranges or moving targets.
3. One workaround would be to just lower scopes mag factors (for example, limit max 10x scope to 2x-4x mag factor), increase penalties and such.
4. Another problem with AI is sight bonuses given to scopes - as AI cannot use them for recon effectively. So some players simply remove all vision bonuses from scopes, and increase base sight range instead.
5. There are a couple of posts here on forum from players who tried to balance NCTH considering their real experience, some of them suggested to remove scopes completely, or limit to just 2x small scope.
Topics with similar discussions:
Stock 1.13 state of NCTH and OCTH systems
NCTH Question after returning from absence.
DL 1.13 and NCTH/OCTH
I don
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| Re: Playing unstable 6023 ! Comments[message #330056]
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Sun, 26 January 2014 20:45
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| dravak |
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Messages:38
Registered:August 2010 |
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Now old CTH is still the same once AI can hit again so can your mercs sadly leads to the overpowered headshot , which can be solved by certain other feats or skills , the NCTH is a much harder problem .
Example put a sever penalty in the head shot outside the deadlyness range .
To compensate the problem , modify stomp sniper ability to increase headshot bonus by 25%
So headshot from extreme range is still possible .
NTCH issue I just can't place the problem , am running around with lam scopes and other stuff from editor .
Penalties removed from running and some basic gear , and I still cannot get reliable shot on torso !
From range 5-20 (assault rifle range)
the whole issue with the to hit problems of AI , is that cause the project uses multiple mods , the penalties and bonuses are placed all over the place for NTCH .
Example stomp has a -5 and -10 , but comes out +5 + 10 if you specialise .
But moving has 0,5 per tile , so AI going to move 10 tiles , it is -5 aim , armour and guns have penalties .
Wearing -8 % , this is all before even having to go trogh NTCH stuff where all the penalties lies .
Hardrock documented work , showed he balanced stuff to not make the bonus so sever and penalties so harsh .
Sadly example in NTC a forgrip is totally unbalanced , it gives ridiculous bonus !
So somewhere else must be a penalty ! But where ?
The whole thing is cause Somebody else makes changes by adding penalties someplace , all those penalties and balancing , works out that if a AI or merc doesn't take specialised gear and build .
It becomes gimped ! , example some aim click simply has no use , first shot aiming with NCTH is pointless .
Cause of all the penalty applied , aiming was used to make sure you sacrifice action points for more secure shots .
The whole issue with NCTH is example the m60e3 , it has ridiculous stats in NCTH , so to make it superb usage .
Coolness 9 , means someplace else must be penalties to make the rest of the LMG ridiculous underpowered .
While it is fine for people to edit there weapon in that way , cause of there own game preferences .
It is not balanced for general usage , and not something everybody should play .
Maybe somebody was trying to fix it and forgot to remove the stuff .
One of the reason it is so much work , is somebody has to go trough everything , even then I am not sure if the calculations are right .
basically removing scopes , would be might as well not using the NCTH reticle and NCTH , I really love the work put into it .
Sadly the AI also shows it has flaws , when AI shoot once at one square away and misses .
Then decides to melee for beter chances . Now redshirts aren't the problem .
Yellow shirts seems to work beter with NCTH cause they are used more as cannon bait by the AI !
Elites really show the sneakiness of the new AI especially with the old to hit system .
Sneaking up throwing grenades , then shooting from best possible area .
Let me read trough all the comments of people , but going trough a lot of things today made me realise why I stopped playing , in the end am also only human , and decided to barge trough the game with a edited squad and gear halfway become bored .
Which isn't how it supposed to be enjoyed and negating all aspect why the modding has become great .
New Weapons to buy , New mercs to hire , New challenges to be found , new features , imp etc .
New future project with your own base (basing on the website to tie in missions)
But all that was based on that combat that hooked us all , that sneaky ah let me have that assault rifle / smg/ sniper rifle so I can kill those AI zerg , wish the mercenary would be cheaper .
I really enjoyed the stable build , so offcourse was interested in the new features of unstable build .
And I love the NTCH reticle (even if I know it is inaccurate as hell , the old to hit bar wasn't 100% but atleast it gave a good indication) new one I can't even tell if it is going to hit fully in the green and smallest circle !
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| Re: Playing unstable 6023 ! Comments[message #330059]
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Sun, 26 January 2014 22:34
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| dravak |
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Messages:38
Registered:August 2010 |
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After reading hardrock explanations and checking the ini , by putting base float at 0 , all shots are 100% .
that is correct , his basic calculation was never meant for 20-25 % hit ratio , something gone horrible wrong .
His basic calculation if I read his explanation right , was that within effective weaponrange .
Some where around 45-55 % if you ad and substract penalties with 100 marksman merc .
Aiming isn't even important factor it provides small degree of bonus to offset the penalties , it is infact secondary problem , the deviation of the guns left and right the base float .
Or the size of the reticle growing bigger or smaller . Aiming purpose , can be changed to make the weapons more accurate .
Basically at 14,5 or even 10 weapons stop being weapons even with scope or laser attachement .
So somewhere around 5-7 is the ideal setup without global overhaul .
so the float integer has to be cut in half to allow the nice big reticle growing and shrinking .
So good news is NCTH broken , no but it needs headrock really and nobody else .
Cause it is his code and he put a lot of work into it .
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| Re: Playing unstable 6023 ! Comments[message #330060]
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Sun, 26 January 2014 22:57
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| silversurfer |
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Messages:2793
Registered:May 2009 |
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Maybe you should calm down a bit. Lot's of your statements come from incorrect assumptions. For example who said that -4 is the penalty that is applied for shooting with a scope below range? It's just a multiplier that is used in a function. The penalty is much higher. Maybe that is the reason why your mercs can't hit an opponent that is 3 tiles away. I don't know.
I played with NCTH for a long time and to me it is much more fun than the old system. Good mercs hit their target even with just a bare weapon using iron sights.
dravak
Jagged Alliance reason you wanted beter weapons was RANGE and Damage !
Now you got beter weapon , it doesn't feel like range and damage . It feels like firing pistols but paying more action points to ready and fire them .
Looks like you're playing a different game. Last time I played it was about bigger guns with more range and damage to keep up with enemy item progression.
dravak
The combat in Jagged Alliance was sandbox ! Sandbox in the meaning people could make up there own tactic !
Want to go pure melee ? Sure your choice , the enemy going to pulverise you , but still doable cause of stealth and shandro stomp agility skill .
Want to sneak around killing people with headshot , sure it is possible , so is stealing there weapons .
Want to make snipers who headshot people ? Sure also possible .
Want to make machinegunner who spread lead all over the place , sure if you got the economy and STR to carry the ammo .
Want to hipshot or run and gun style combat , also possible make sure you have high aim mercenaries
All of this still works fine. Actually I have lots of different roles in my team. My gunfighter is very deadly at low to medium range and he doesn't have scopes btw. Snipers only seldom miss their target. Most of the mercs have ARs. For close range I have a martial arts expert. I even have a ranger with a shotgun. Very good mixed team which works great together.
dravak
Now it seems we are forced into playing with scopes and lam and batteries !
Or against a AI that is severly handicapped , that it is a choir , with weapons like rifles meaningless , SMG meaningless .
everything has to be bought or edited .
That's nonsense. How do you think my team survived the Drassen counterattack? No scopes, no lasers, no mortars, artillery, 20 elite milita or anything. All of this wasn't available at that time. Sure, some mercs got wounded but they won and that is all that counts.
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| Re: Playing unstable 6023 ! Comments[message #330061]
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Sun, 26 January 2014 23:08
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| Deleted. |
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Messages:2663
Registered:December 2012
Location: Russian Federation |
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@silversurfer
Agree with most of your points, i must say that with your fixes and additions NCTH is finally playable with maybe some minor issues.
One known issue from my experience - too much misses at close range, too much extra lucky shots beyond maximum range. Maybe something wrong with used random distribution?
After some test battles, i found the following setting the best for my playing style:
NORMAL_SHOOTING_DISTANCE = 200
for good use of iron scopes, especially early in the game
IRON_SIGHT_PERFORMANCE_BONUS = 25.0
this value seems enough
LASER_PERFORMANCE_BONUS_HIP = 20.0
LASER_PERFORMANCE_BONUS_IRON = 15.0
LASER_PERFORMANCE_BONUS_SCOPE = 10.0
GRAVITY_COEFFICIENT = 6.0
RANGE_COEFFICIENT = 0.8
for weapons range to work correctly
SCOPE_RANGE_MULTIPLIER = 0.5
to compensate increased NORMAL_SHOOTING_DISTANCE
AIM_TOO_CLOSE_SCOPE = 0.0
scopes already do not give significant bonus at close range
MOVEMENT_PENALTY_PER_TILE = 2.0
increased to have more penalty shooting at moving targets - realism and tactics
MAX_EFFECTIVE_RANGE_MULTIPLIER = 2.0
MAX_EFFECTIVE_RANGE_REDUCTION = 0.5
MAX_EFFECTIVE_USE_GRADIENT = TRUE
for AI to shoot further
With these settings, scopes do not give additional aiming bonus at close range (<100), instead they allow to fire at greater range, where iron sights become useless.
And scopes have increased aim levels and tracking penalty, so they cannot replace iron sights completely.
So, at this point, i think that NCTH is very interesting and flexible system, so i don't see any reason to go back to OCTH.
[Updated on: Mon, 27 January 2014 08:26] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Playing unstable 6023 ! Comments[message #330063]
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Sun, 26 January 2014 23:37
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| dravak |
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Messages:38
Registered:August 2010 |
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Basically without the deviation in left right , weapon status and drop in gravity etc (missing y axis numbers)
Based on his formula in simple terms ,
Base CTH = 77,9 (10 level of base exp) 75,25 (1 level of base exp)
with added penalties and bonuses . Minimum CTH is half that 38,95 .
Maximum CTH suppose to be 97,9 .
So all the penalties and bonuses unless somebody messed up the coding , should lie in the ini above .
Basically the deviation , Degrees Maximum is what causes the weapons to function like pistols .
Since it swings wildly the tohit numbers , in a random way .
Degrees maximum is also tied into the graphic representation of the reticle .
So 14,5 while giving nice graphic representation sadly also , makes the shot totally inaccurate !
That is the coders job , to break that down that even with smaller numbers the reticle goes wider and Smaller.
Sadly HAM is never supposed to reached 100% , so you will never see the green cross and red cross align .
If you put the Degrees Maximum at 0 , (everybody has 100% chance to hit , no matter the status of the weapon , skills or any other factor)
So degrees maximum is what suppose to change to emulate the weapons of OCTH .
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| Re: Playing unstable 6023 ! Comments[message #330064]
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Sun, 26 January 2014 23:55
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| dravak |
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Messages:38
Registered:August 2010 |
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silversurferMaybe you should calm down a bit. Lot's of your statements come from incorrect assumptions. For example who said that -4 is the penalty that is applied for shooting with a scope below range? It's just a multiplier that is used in a function. The penalty is much higher. Maybe that is the reason why your mercs can't hit an opponent that is 3 tiles away. I don't know.
I played with NCTH for a long time and to me it is much more fun than the old system. Good mercs hit their target even with just a bare weapon using iron sights.
Oh you mean can do that too, change base iron sight to 50% it is before the formula .
Not after the formula , the before the complex formula before the max degrees part affect the NTCH the most , So a simple 50 bonus accounts for more then anything you changes after the base CTH !
Quote:
dravak
Jagged Alliance reason you wanted beter weapons was RANGE and Damage !
Now you got beter weapon , it doesn't feel like range and damage . It feels like firing pistols but paying more action points to ready and fire them .
Looks like you're playing a different game. Last time I played it was about bigger guns with more range and damage to keep up with enemy item progression.
And what point you didn't understand ? Quick quote same stuff we are both saying .
That it is about bigger damage and range , get a new assault rifle and it shoots like what ? With the same merc , you feel the RANGE difference from a gunfighter ?
dravak
The combat in Jagged Alliance was sandbox ! Sandbox in the meaning people could make up there own tactic !
Want to go pure melee ? Sure your choice , the enemy going to pulverise you , but still doable cause of stealth and shandro stomp agility skill .
Want to sneak around killing people with headshot , sure it is possible , so is stealing there weapons .
Want to make snipers who headshot people ? Sure also possible .
Want to make machinegunner who spread lead all over the place , sure if you got the economy and STR to carry the ammo .
Want to hipshot or run and gun style combat , also possible make sure you have high aim mercenaries
All of this still works fine. Actually I have lots of different roles in my team. My gunfighter is very deadly at low to medium range and he doesn't have scopes btw. Snipers only seldom miss their target. Most of the mercs have ARs. For close range I have a martial arts expert. I even have a ranger with a shotgun. Very good mixed team which works great together.[/quote]
And yes gunfighter function like OTCH , didn't all the tester say that ?
Cause you are having fun with your gunfighter , cause it is reliable , feels the same as OTCH !
Point is see , that is what people want that stuff feels familiar , assault rifle doesn't feel like assault rifles .
dravak
Now it seems we are forced into playing with scopes and lam and batteries !
Or against a AI that is severly handicapped , that it is a choir , with weapons like rifles meaningless , SMG meaningless .
everything has to be bought or edited .
That's nonsense. How do you think my team survived the Drassen counterattack? No scopes, no lasers, no mortars, artillery, 20 elite milita or anything. All of this wasn't available at that time. Sure, some mercs got wounded but they won and that is all that counts.
[/quote]
Cause work around the system doesn't mean , I can have fun with HAM now I understand what it does , reticle is just crap and inaccurate .
I am putting it at degrees maximum 6 , range 100 .
So sniper rifles becomes less accurate unless they are 20 tiles away .
assault rifle becomes the main weapon to use again . Well you supplied the NCTH in the base build , so without chances it should be functioning ,
Not with tweaks and changes still not functioning to the proper behaviour !
So this is unstable build , so over the years all those topic , say the same .
Something is off with NTCH , so what you supplied into the base build ,
Broke a AI into doing nothing but cower , get a new rifle it feels like a totally inaccurate , sure can tweak the weapons list to make them accurate like the M60e6
75% bonus when prone I mean terrific cheesing 
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