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Cth/INI Settings for new stable release[message #330139] Tue, 28 January 2014 22:33 Go to next message
Off_Topic

 
Messages:1019
Registered:January 2009
This will be the place we can focus all discussion on creating the best INI settings for the Stable release scheduled for later this year.

Please feel free to add your input, it's an important aspect of the game.

I'll put all suggestions here so it will be easier to compare them.

If you have figures you'd like to suggest, try and support them with reasons as to why you think they work. It will make it easier to test/notice improvements.

IRON_SIGHT_PERFORMANCE_BONUS affects the size of the base shooting aperture for iron sights by x percent.
; Values can go from -50.0 (penalty) to 50.0 (bonus of 50 percent will make the aperture half as large)
; The default is 0.0
IRON_SIGHT_PERFORMANCE_BONUS = 0.0 [color:#33FF33]15.0[/color]

; LASER_PERFORMANCE_BONUS_XXX also affects the size of the base shooting aperture by x percent but is used for lasers.
; The bonus only applies if the target is in laser range and the given sight is used.
; The bonus is also influenced by the light level at the target spot. The darker the spot the better the laser dot
; can be seen and the higher the resulting bonus will be.
; The defaults are 0.0 If all values are 0.0 the old NCTH laser behaviour is used.
; Values can go from 0.0 to 50.0
LASER_PERFORMANCE_BONUS_HIP = 0.0 [color:#33FF33]25.0[/color]
LASER_PERFORMANCE_BONUS_IRON = 0.0 [color:#33FF33]15.0[/color]
LASER_PERFORMANCE_BONUS_SCOPE = 0.0 [color:#33FF33]10.0[/color]
;------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

; This is the maximum angle, to either side of the shooter, that a bullet may fly.
; The CTH system works by shooting bullets randomly inside this angle. Increasing
; your aim will make the angle smaller, thus making rounds more likely to hit the
; target.
;
; This value is a FLOAT, with a range of 0 to 22.5. If set to 0, all shots will
; be 100% on target, regardless of aiming.
; Decreasing this value causes all shots to be more accurate.
DEGREES_MAXIMUM_APERTURE = 15

; The Range Coefficient works with the listed weapon range to determine the weapons
; maximum range. Once a bullet reaches it's maximum range, gravity pulls it towards
; the ground.
RANGE_COEFFICIENT = 1.1

; The Gravity Coefficient determines how powerful gravity is once it kicks into
; action - this happens when the bullet reaches the "maximum range" of the gun
; that fired it.
; The lower this coefficient, the faster will bullets change their trajectory
; towards the ground, hitting it sooner.
; Conversely, by increasing this value you can let bullets fly further beyond
; the max range of the gun. That will effectivelly let guns hit targets further
; beyond their max range, though it is not a reliable way to hit any target.
GRAVITY_COEFFICIENT = 4.0 [color:#33FF33]10.0[/color]

; The Vertical Bias "flattens" the target appeture which restricts the vertical amoun
; by which a bullet can travel. Vertical bias is ultimately based on stance where
; a standing shooter is always at 1.0, a prone shooter is at the indicated bias, and
; a crouching target is midway between the two.
VERTICAL_BIAS = 0.5

; The Scope Range Multiplier is applied against a scopes magnification to determine
; the scopes minimum effective range. Sniper and Hunter training has a slight effect
; on this. Valid range is 0.5 - 1.5, with a default of 0.7. The higher you set
; this multiplier, the less effective scopes become.
SCOPE_RANGE_MULTIPLIER = 1.0 [color:#33FF33]0.7[/color]

; The Side Facing Divisor is applied against the shooting offsets when a target is
; facing directly perpendicular (i.e., East or West when shooter faces North or South)
; to the shooter. This is to account for a visual error in the NCTH system. The
; Valid range for this divisor is 1.0 - 10.0. If you don't think it should be as easy
; to hit a target from the side as from head on, just set this value to 1.0
SIDE_FACING_DIVISOR = 2.0

; This is the basic chance PER SHOT to lose 1 point of weapon condition with each
; bullet fired. The formula for this chance is 1 in BASE_DEPRECIATE_CHANCE, so higher
; values result in slower degradation.
; The default value for OCTH is 15, but NCTH requires a **much** higher
; expenditure of bullets, resulting in severely-reduced weapon condition after every
; battle. Therefore, the default for NCTH is currently 150.
; Valid range is 0-10000.
BASIC_RELIABILITY_ODDS = 45


[Base CTH]

;------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
; Base CTH is an amount of CTH given freely to the shooter for any shot he makes.
; The basic value is determined by skills, and later the modifiers reduce or
; increase it appropriately. Characters with low skills, or with bad factors
; affecting their performance, will receive bad base CTH.
; The maximum amount of Base CTH you can have is 33 points. This is only
; achievable by super-mercs in excellent conditions.

; These settings determine the importance of each character skill in calculating
; your Base CTH. By default, Experience is 3 times more important than the other
; skills. Base CTH, before modifiers, is equal to the sum of the player's skills,
; each multiplied by the appropriate value from these, and then divided by the
; sum of all these four values.
;
; These values are FLOATS, with a range of 0.0 to 10.0. Setting a value to 0
; will render the appropriate skill irrelevant for calculating base CTH. DO NOT
; set all four values to 0, unless you want to see lots of crashes.
;------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BASE_EXP = 3.0
BASE_MARKS = 1.0
BASE_WIS = 1.0
BASE_DEX = 1.0

;------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
; These settings control the effect that various factors have on the shooter's
; Base CTH. By increasing a value, you can increase that factor's importance
; on raising or lowering Base CTH.
;
; These values are all FLOATS, with ranges of -1000.0 to 1000.0. Pay close attention
; to the positive/negative and read the explanations carefully. Some factors are
; better when HIGHER, others better when LOWER.
;
; After calculating Base CTH from skills (see above), the factors governing it
; (below) are all pooled together into one penalty value. That penalty value is
; then used as a percentage to increase or decrease your Base CTH. In other words,
; if all factors amount to -50.0, you'll lose half your Base CTH. If they amount
; to 20.0, you'll gain 20% extra base CTH.
;------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

; This is a modifier given per each morale point below 50.
BASE_LOW_MORALE = -1.0

; This modifier is given per each morale point above 50.
BASE_HIGH_MORALE = 2.0

; This modifier is given to any character with the "PSYCHO" trait.
BASE_PSYCHO = -3.0

; This is the modifier given when shooting one "cube" upwards. A cube is
; 1/3 of a tile high. This takes into account both stance and level. For
; example, a standing merc shooting at the legs of a target on the roof
; gets 1*this modifier. A prone merc on ground level shooting at the
; head of a target on ground level gets 2*this modifier.
;
; The shooting upwards modifier is then divided by the range to the target
; (in tiles). In other words, at a range of 2 tiles the modifier is
; HALVED. at a range of 10 tiles, the modifier is divided by 10. Etcetera.
; This means that the further the target is, the less relevant the upwards
; angle is.
BASE_SHOOTING_UPWARDS = -15.0

; This is the MAXIMUM modifier given to a shooter when injured. To get this
; much, the shooter must be dead (0% health...). It's linear,
; so at 50% health the shooter gets exactly half the penalty.
; Note that "Bandaged" damage counts as half as much as bleeding damage.
; Therefore, 50% bandaged damage is as bad as only25% bleeding damage.
BASE_INJURY = -30.0

;------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
; These are the modifiers given for different levels of drunkness. Naturally,
; the more drunk you are, the more your CTH suffers.
;------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BASE_DRUNK_TIPSY = -5.0
BASE_DRUNK = -20.0
BASE_DRUNK_WASTED = -50.0
BASE_DRUNK_HUNGOVER = -10.0

; This is the MAXIMUM modifier given to a shooter when fully fatigued (0% breath).
; It's linear, so at 50% breath you get half the modifier.
BASE_FATIGUE = -15.0

; This modifier is applied when shooting at the same target again. If the target
; has moved between shots, or the shooter does anything but shoot at the target,
; the modifier is lost.
BASE_SAME_TARGET = 5.0

; This is the modifier given when the shooter is in a cloud of gas and does
; not have a gas mask on.
BASE_GASSED = -15.0

; This modifier is applied when the shooter is being bandaged by someone else.
BASE_BEING_BANDAGED = -5.0

; This is the MAXIMUM modifier given when the target reaches the maximum number
; of Suppression Shock points, which by default would be 30. It's linear, so at
; 15 shock points you get half the penalty.
; Note that characters with high experience stop accumulating shock much earlier,
; and so are much less subject to this modifier than other characters.
BASE_SHOCK = -150.0

; This modifier is applied if the target has exceptional agility or experience level.
BASE_AGILE_TARGET = -5.0

; This modifier is applied if the shooter can't see the target. This happens
; when shooting at a target spotted by someone else.
BASE_TARGET_INVISIBLE = -100.0

;------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
; These modifiers work very differently from the others. The are related to a
; concept called Gun Handling, which is still being adjusted. Basically,
; Gun Handling is equal to the AP Cost to Ready the gun. Heavier, more
; cumbersome guns like sniper rifles or machine guns get a high Gun Handling
; value, and thus decrease Base CTH proportionally. Pistols, on the other hand,
; have very low Gun Handling values.
;
; BASE_DRAW_COST is applied per each Gun Handling point.
;
; The other values act as multipliers applied directly to the Gun Handling
; value. For example, by default a pistol fired with one hand (other hand
; full or holding another pistol) gets its Gun Handling value doubled.
;
; Please note that all of these except BASE_DRAW_COST should be POSITIVE.
; The higher they are, the greater their effect.
;------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BASE_DRAW_COST = 2.0
BASE_TWO_GUNS = 5.0
BASE_ONE_HANDED = 2.5
BASE_STANDING_STANCE = 2.0
BASE_CROUCHING_STANCE = 3.0
BASE_PRONE_STANCE = 4.0
BASE_HEAVY_WEAPON = 2.0

;------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
; These modifiers are applied based on game difficulty, and only affect
; the base CTH of ENEMY COMBATANTS.
;------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BASE_DIFFICULTY_NOVICE = -30.0
BASE_DIFFICULTY_EXPERIENCED = 0.0
BASE_DIFFICULTY_EXPERT = 20.0
BASE_DIFFICULTY_INSANE = 50.0


[Aiming CTH]

;------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
; Aiming CTH is the amount of CTH you get for adding extra aiming to your
; shot, by paying extra APs.
;
; First, the game calculates the maximum CTH our shooter can have, using
; the shooter's skills as a guide. This is called the CTH cap, and the shooter
; can NEVER have more CTH than this cap, ever.
;
; The program then subtracts the Base CTH value from the CTH Cap, coming up
; with a number called the Maximum Aiming Bonus. At peak condition, and with
; the maximum number of aiming levels applied, the shooter will reach his
; CTH Cap, meaning he will be as accurate as he can be.
;
; Note that for each AP you spend on aiming, you only get PART of the Maximum
; Aiming Bonus. In fact, you get 8/36 of it for the first AP, 7/36 for the
; second AP, 6/36 for the third, and so forth. The last AP gives only 1/36
; of the total bonus, but that little bit can sometimes be crucial.
;------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

AIM_EXP = 1.0
AIM_MARKS = 3.0
AIM_WIS = 1.0
AIM_DEX = 2.0

;------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
; This value is multiplied against 1/2 the scopes mag factor to determine the
; actual penalty applied. Setting it too low will make it impossible to use
; scopes within effective range
;------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

AIM_TOO_CLOSE_SCOPE = -4.0

AIM_GUN_CONDITION = -2.0
AIM_LOW_MORALE = -2.0
AIM_HIGH_MORALE = 1.0
AIM_PSYCHO = -5.0
AIM_VISIBILITY = -1.0
AIM_SHOOTING_UPWARDS = -20.0
AIM_INJURY = -60.0
AIM_DRUNK_TIPSY = -10.0
AIM_DRUNK = -40.0
AIM_DRUNK_WASTED = -90.0
AIM_DRUNK_HUNGOVER = -15.0
AIM_FATIGUE = -40.0
AIM_GASSED = -80.0
AIM_BEING_BANDAGED = -20.0
AIM_SHOCK = -150.0
AIM_TARGET_INVISIBLE = -50.0
AIM_SNIPER_SKILL = 25.0

AIM_DRAW_COST = 0.5
AIM_STANDING_STANCE = 1.5
AIM_CROUCHING_STANCE = 1.25
AIM_PRONE_STANCE = 1.0
AIM_TWO_GUNS = 4.0
AIM_ONE_HANDED = 2.5
AIM_HEAVY_WEAPON = 2.0

AIM_DIFFICULTY_NOVICE = -30.0
AIM_DIFFICULTY_EXPERIENCED = 0.0
AIM_DIFFICULTY_EXPERT = 20.0
AIM_DIFFICULTY_INSANE = 50.0


[Shooting Mechanism]

MOVEMENT_MRK = 3.0
MOVEMENT_WIS = 2.0
MOVEMENT_DEX = 1.0
MOVEMENT_EXP_LEVEL = 2.0
MOVEMENT_TRACKING_DIFFICULTY = 40
MOVEMENT_PENALTY_PER_TILE = 1.0

PRE_RECOIL_WIS = 2.0
PRE_RECOIL_EXP_LEVEL = 3.0
PRE_RECOIL_AUTO_WEAPONS_SKILL = 2.0

RECOIL_MAX_COUNTER_STR = 3.0
RECOIL_MAX_COUNTER_AGI = 1.0
RECOIL_MAX_COUNTER_EXP_LEVEL = 1.0
RECOIL_MAX_COUNTER_FORCE = 10.0
RECOIL_MAX_COUNTER_CROUCH = 10.0
RECOIL_MAX_COUNTER_PRONE = 25.0

RECOIL_COUNTER_ACCURACY_MIN_ERROR = 0.2
RECOIL_COUNTER_ACCURACY_DEX = 3.0
RECOIL_COUNTER_ACCURACY_WIS = 1.0
RECOIL_COUNTER_ACCURACY_AGI = 1.0
RECOIL_COUNTER_ACCURACY_EXP_LEVEL = 4.0
RECOIL_COUNTER_AUTO_WEAPONS_DIVISOR = 4.0
RECOIL_COUNTER_ACCURACY_TRACER_BONUS = 10.0
RECOIL_COUNTER_ACCURACY_ANTICIPATION = 25.0
RECOIL_COUNTER_ACCURACY_COMPENSATION = 2.0

RECOIL_COUNTER_FREQUENCY_AGI = 3.0
RECOIL_COUNTER_FREQUENCY_EXP_LEVEL = 2.0
RECOIL_COUNTER_FREQUENCY_AUTO_WEAPONS_DIVISOR = 4.0

;------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
; These set the percentage by which the autofire target offset is improved. At 20%, it takes 5 "steps" (based on CFF)
; to reach best offset improvement.
;------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RECOIL_COUNTER_INCREMENT = 1
RECOIL_COUNTER_INCREMENT_TRACER = 25

;------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
; This value determines the distance ratio for recoil. Higher values result in
; less overall recoil movement at longer ranges.
; This value is an INTEGER, with a range of 10 to 1000. The distance is
; measured in METERS, not tiles, so 100 means 10 tiles.
;------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

NORMAL_RECOIL_DISTANCE = 70

MAX_BULLET_DEV = 5.0
RANGE_EFFECTS_DEV = TRUE

;------------------------------------------------------------------------------
; MAX_EFFECTIVE_RANGE_MULTIPLIER
; Maximum effective range of Gun that AI will still attempt to shoot
; Default: 1.1 which equates to 110% of the gun's effective range
; MAX_EFFECTIVE_RANGE_REDUCTION
; Maximum reduction of chance to hit when exceeding effective range
; Default: 0.5 which equates to 50% reduction
; MAX_EFFECTIVE_USE_GRADIENT
; Whether to apply the reduction as a flat reduction or as gradient
; Default: FALSE which is flat reduction when exceeding range
;------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MAX_EFFECTIVE_RANGE_MULTIPLIER = 1.1 [color:#33FF33]1.4[/color]
MAX_EFFECTIVE_RANGE_REDUCTION = 0.5
MAX_EFFECTIVE_USE_GRADIENT = FALSE [color:#33FF33]True[/color]

Silver Surfer

CTHConstants.ini
IRON_SIGHT_PERFORMANCE_BONUS = 15.0
LASER_PERFORMANCE_BONUS_HIP = 25.0
LASER_PERFORMANCE_BONUS_IRON = 15.0
LASER_PERFORMANCE_BONUS_SCOPE = 10.0
GRAVITY_COEFFICIENT = 10.0
SCOPE_RANGE_MULTIPLIER = 0.7


Ja2_Options.INI
BASE_SIGHT_RANGE = 14
OVERHEATING = TRUE
DIRT_SYSTEM = FALSE


Svenfm

NORMAL_SHOOTING_DISTANCE = 200
for good use of iron scopes, especially early in the game

IRON_SIGHT_PERFORMANCE_BONUS = 25.0
this value seems enough

LASER_PERFORMANCE_BONUS_HIP = 20.0
LASER_PERFORMANCE_BONUS_IRON = 15.0
LASER_PERFORMANCE_BONUS_SCOPE = 10.0

GRAVITY_COEFFICIENT = 6.0
RANGE_COEFFICIENT = 0.8
for weapons range to work correctly

SCOPE_RANGE_MULTIPLIER = 0.5 [color:#33FF33]0.7[/color]
to compensate increased NORMAL_SHOOTING_DISTANCE

AIM_TOO_CLOSE_SCOPE = 0.0
scopes already do not give significant bonus at close range

MOVEMENT_PENALTY_PER_TILE = 2.0
increased to have more penalty shooting at moving targets - realism and tactics

MAX_EFFECTIVE_RANGE_MULTIPLIER = 2.0
MAX_EFFECTIVE_RANGE_REDUCTION = 0.5
MAX_EFFECTIVE_USE_GRADIENT = TRUE
for AI to shoot further


Strohmann

MAX_EFFECTIVE_RANGE_MULTIPLIER = 1.75
MAX_EFFECTIVE_RANGE_REDUCTION = 0.85
MAX_EFFECTIVE_USE_GRADIENT = TRUE

For bullet drop:
RANGE_COEFFICIENT = 0.6
GRAVITY_COEFFICIENT = 6.0

[Updated on: Thu, 30 January 2014 21:37] by Moderator



Re: Playing unstable 6023 ! Comments[message #330149] Wed, 29 January 2014 11:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Strohmann

 
Messages:288
Registered:August 2011
Location: Division Thought Crimes
GRAVITY_COEFFICIENT = 10.0
While i agree that the arcing is not realistic, increasing this setting to such high values leads to "what you see is what you can shoot at", making the stat gun range nearly pointless (pistols firing bullets with meagerly nominal range of 12 fly 60+ tiles before hitting the ground...). The only difference becomes, that the shooter either needs drop compensation to hit the target with a gun or not. I would prefer having some guns that can't reach that far, overruling realism concerns in this case.

MOVEMENT_PENALTY_PER_TILE = 2.0
I think it would be better to give the individual attachments/scopes a -penalty instead of a global increase. Also this doubling is likely (one of?) the source(s) of the increased missing-at-short-ranges cases.

AIM_TOO_CLOSE_SCOPE = 0.0
I'm sorry, but what?? Ignoring the realism aspect of effortlessly aiming at a (moving) target at short range with a high-power scope, one of the core concepts of NCTH is not only to give no bonuses for using the "wrong" magnification at the wrong distance a la OCTH, but to punish the player for doing so! You aren't supposed to use your (sniper) rifles in cqc without much hassle...

--
Let's see where these settings
BASE_SIGHT_RANGE = 16
NORMAL_SHOOTING_DISTANCE = 200
SCOPE_RANGE_MULTIPLIER = 0.5
lead us (test done with sun goggles at 13:00 o'clock, MinRng = Scope's minimum range before penalties kick in, OptRng = Scope's optimal range, further away it starts to loose effectiveness):

Sniper Scope 10x: SightRng 67, MinRng 100, OptRng 200 tiles
PSO-3 8x: SightRng 59, MinRng 80 tiles, OptRng 160 tiles
Battle Scope 7x: SightRng 52, MinRng 70 tiles, OptRng 140 tiles
ACOG 4x: SightRng 40, MinRng 40 tiles, OptRng 80 tiles
Scope 2x: SightRng 36, MinRng 20 tiles, OptRng 40 tiles
Default Sight Range: 32

-> Except for the lowest magnifying scope these settings lead to always getting the BASE/AIM_TARGET_INVISIBLE penalties within the optimal range or too-cloose penalties if not...
In order to make this work at all AIM_TOO_CLOSE_SCOPE had to be set 0.0, breaking one core concept of NCTH in the process.

BASE_SIGHT_RANGE = 16
NORMAL_SHOOTING_DISTANCE = 140
SCOPE_RANGE_MULTIPLIER = 0.5

Sniper Scope 10x: SightRng 67, MinRng 70, OptRng 140 tiles
PSO-3 8x: SightRng 59, MinRng 56 tiles, OptRng 112 tiles
Battle Scope 7x: SightRng 52, MinRng 49 tiles, OptRng 98 tiles
ACOG 4x: SightRng 40, MinRng 28 tiles, OptRng 56 tiles
Scope 2x: SightRng 36, MinRng 14 tiles, OptRng 28 tiles
Default Sight Range: 32

-> The high-power scopes only have a very small unpenalized tile range, before negative modifiers would kick in.

These example show, why it's often not a good idea to change the NORMAL_SHOOTING/RECOIL_DISTANCE, because of the potential of breaking the scope-to-range balance. Instead i suggest to increase the IRON_SIGHT_PERFORMANCE_BONUS (i think buffing iron sights in relation to scopes was the aim in the first place; i use the value 35 in my mod, which is at the upper end of sensible values) and to create different magnifications for high-power scopes through item transformations instead of changing the SCOPE_RANGE_MULTIPLIER.

Edit:

Another aspect that i felt wasn't talked about: below the difficult insane non-elite enemies rarely get a scope assigned at all, but these are vital for NCTH! All these AI-related settings MAX_EFFECTIVE_RANGE_MULTIPLIER,
MAX_EFFECTIVE_RANGE_REDUCTION and MAX_EFFECTIVE_USE_GRADIENT can act only as as "crutch", if this, the real underlying problem, doesn't get solved, too. So i suggest to externalize this assignment chance/at least increase it for NCTH, so most the enemy forces don't keep stuck with iron sights later in the game, while the player sports scopes.

--
Another opinion throw-in from my side: not just relating to this thread, but in others too, i often get the impression players want NCTH to be OCTH 2.0 . No, it's not! Please read Headrock's threads and core concept and don't try to force it to become something it never was meant to be.

OT: is it really that difficult to write the name of my forum alter ego? I have read all kind of funny variants so far, ranging from Strongman to Strohnmann to Sthronmann. It's really just the german version of straw man Very Happy .
Re: Playing unstable 6023 ! Comments[message #330150] Wed, 29 January 2014 11:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sevenfm

 
Messages:2355
Registered:December 2012
Location: Russian Federation
@Strohmann

Thanks for explanations, your help is much appreciated with our effort to find optimal values for stock 1.13 NCTH. And sorry for misspelling your name Smile

As for these settings:
AIM_TOO_CLOSE_SCOPE = 0.0
NORMAL_SHOOTING_DISTANCE = 200
SCOPE_RANGE_MULTIPLIER = 0.5
I agree that stock 1.13 should use more conservative settings (close to those suggested by Silversurfer).
But i really like what they give to my gameplay:
scopes don't give bonuses within iron scopes range (so you cannot compensate bad skills with 4x scope, and no headshot game without high skills+good rifle+laser), instead they allow my shooter to prolong shooting range with nearly same CTH/aperture.
And still iron scopes are more effective at range < 150 because of iron sight bonus and movement penalties for tracking with optics.
So this system seems to be very balanced and realistic, at least for my taste Smile

Concerning GRAVITY_COEFFICIENT = 10.0, i agree that it's too much, because gun ranges become obsolete - you can really shoot with pistols at extreme ranges and actually hit due to random and skills.
Instead i use GRAVITY_COEFFICIENT = 6.0 and RANGE_COEFFICIENT = 0.8 and these settings seem to be good.


Re: Cth/INI Settings for new stable release [message #330151] Wed, 29 January 2014 11:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2762
Registered:May 2009
Since I couldn't post in the other thread (announcement?) I'm going to post my comments here.

First I want to make sure that we talk about NORMAL maps here because they are the ones in the stable release. Big maps need adjusted settings which are not part of this discussion.

Also keep in mind that some of these values influence each other. Changing too many at once isn't a good idea. Wink

About my settings - Ja2_Options.INI:

BASE_SIGHT_RANGE = 14
I set this value because it is twice the NORMAL_SHOOTING_DISTANCE = 70 and also the default combat distance for 2x scopes. There was no other reason than that. Of course this could be set higher to make it easier to spot people but I wouldn't do it because it will make it too easy to spot opponents without additional help. Why use binoculars? Why use light sources if you can see perfectly during night missions? Also there are other items and traits that improve vision so no need to increase this any further.

OVERHEATING = TRUE
This is just a personal preference and has nothing to do with NCTH. You should remove it from the list.

DIRT_SYSTEM = FALSE
Same as above - just a personal preference.


CTHConstants.ini:

IRON_SIGHT_PERFORMANCE_BONUS = 15.0
After playing a bit more I agree that this value could be increased a little. I guess 20 would be a good value which is not overpowered.

LASER_PERFORMANCE_BONUS_x
These were implemented on request to get rid of the old behaviour that made lasers work like scopes. I guess the values are ok.

GRAVITY_COEFFICIENT = 10.0
Bullets were dropping much too fast in the past once they reached effective weapon range. This makes them fly farther. This value wasn't tested. I took it because 4.0 was too low. After some more playing I agree that 6.0 is sufficient.


Other settings:

RANGE_COEFFICIENT
This should not be changed (especially not below 1) because it determines the range the bullet will fly before dropping to the ground. If this is below 1 it will make weapons have less range.

NORMAL_SHOOTING_DISTANCE
I wouldn't recommend changing this because it will influence/break all kinds of calculations. Especially scopes above 2x will become useless if this value is increased. I played around with higher values than 70 and didn't like the results. For example even with SCOPE_RANGE_MULTIPLIER = 0.5 optimal combat distance for your sniper with a 8x or 10x scope will be 80 to 100 tiles if NORMAL_SHOOTING_DISTANCE = 200. No combat takes place at such extreme distances in JA2.

MAX_EFFECTIVE_x
These influence the probability that AI will fire their weapons. Increasing the range is good but I'm also going to check the AI gun range decision making and see if I can improve it. I hope this will finally make the AI use their chances better.

[Updated on: Wed, 29 January 2014 11:57] by Moderator


Re: Cth/INI Settings for new stable release[message #330152] Wed, 29 January 2014 11:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Off_Topic

 
Messages:1019
Registered:January 2009
Sorry about the mix up, I didn't realise you couldn't post in a general announcement.

Apologies for misspelling your name Strohmann, i think it's just my English speaking brain trying to make sense of a strange arrangement of letters.

Anyway, carry on.


Re: Cth/INI Settings for new stable release[message #330153] Wed, 29 January 2014 12:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sevenfm

 
Messages:2355
Registered:December 2012
Location: Russian Federation
ja2_options.ini:

BASE_SIGHT_RANGE = 14 is generally good for regular maps, though i personally prefer 16, because it allows AI to behave more effectively later in the game when AR's become available.

DIRT_SYSTEM = FALSE
Agree on that, i saw a lot of new players asking "why my gun isn't shooting?" or "how to clean it? i'm stuck! please help!"

And a side note: ja2_options.ini contains a lot of OCTH settings, which confuse players thinking that they apply to NCTH too.

[Updated on: Wed, 29 January 2014 12:02] by Moderator



Re: Cth/INI Settings for new stable release[message #330155] Wed, 29 January 2014 12:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Strohmann

 
Messages:288
Registered:August 2011
Location: Division Thought Crimes
No harm done, i just found i kind of funny, as >Derpbrot< has the same problem (trololol).

Quote:
[...]scopes don't give bonuses within iron [sights] range


They already didn't before you changed the settings at all.

Scopes alone making poor shooters too good is a problem with overemphasis of the magnification factor in the formulars i think (silversurfer help us out here).

[Updated on: Wed, 29 January 2014 12:15] by Moderator

Re: Cth/INI Settings for new stable release[message #330160] Wed, 29 January 2014 12:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Strohmann

 
Messages:288
Registered:August 2011
Location: Division Thought Crimes
Quote:
RANGE_COEFFICIENT
This should not be changed (especially not below 1) because it determines the range the bullet will fly before dropping to the ground. If this is below 1 it will make weapons have less range.
Why? As far as i understood the settings, the total gun range (the distance before the bullet hits the ground) is composed of the straight flying distance and the distance while the bullet is in the process of dropping. RANGE_COEFFICIENT controls the end of the first in relation to the nominal gun range, GRAVITY_COEFFICIENT the second. So if one carefully decreases the first while increasing the last, the total gun range hasn't to change at all (or just slightly). Doing so allows firing over great distances to be more difficult for poor shooters for example, as for the skill needed to correctly compensate the drop.
Re: Cth/INI Settings for new stable release[message #330162] Wed, 29 January 2014 12:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2762
Registered:May 2009
The magnification factor is THE thing Headrocks system is based on. It basically is like:

Put target at:
7 tiles
14 tiles
28 tiles
49 tiles
...

and then aim using:
iron sights
2x scope
4x scope
7x scope
...

You will see the same picture in all cases which will make aiming at 49 tiles with 7x scope as easy as at 7 tiles with iron sights. Of course this is not exactly true because of other factors that influence shooting in reality but for the game it is simple and effective. That's one reason I switched to NCTH as soon as I could. It makes shooting feel more realistic.


Strohmann
Why? As far as i understood the settings, the total gun range (the distance before the bullet hits the ground) is composed of the straight flying distance and the distance while the bullet is in the process of dropping. RANGE_COEFFICIENT controls the end of the first in relation to the nominal gun range, GRAVITY_COEFFICIENT the second. So if one carefully decreases the first while increasing the last, the total gun range hasn't to change at all (or just slightly). Doing so allows firing over great distances to be more difficult for poor shooters for example, as for the skill needed to correctly compensate the drop.

The point is that we shouldn't make it more difficult to fire at someone that is inside gun range. For example if we use a gun that has 13 range and the target is 12 tiles away with RANGE_COEFFICIENT = 0.8 bullet drop would already start at 10 tiles and the game would "think" that is has to compensate which is not good. GRAVITY_COEFFICIENT tells the game how fast it should pull the bullet to the ground.

[Updated on: Wed, 29 January 2014 21:39] by Moderator


Re: Cth/INI Settings for new stable release[message #330176] Wed, 29 January 2014 21:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2762
Registered:May 2009
I already found a problem with CTH evaluation which makes AI reluctant to fire their weapons. Once this is fixed it will not be necessary anymore to increase MAX_EFFECTIVE_RANGE_MULTIPLIER to high values. I found 1.4 to be enough. Too high values will make AI fire from too far away and the bullets will drop to the ground before they reach the target.

[Updated on: Wed, 29 January 2014 21:59] by Moderator


Re: Cth/INI Settings for new stable release[message #330185] Wed, 29 January 2014 23:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sevenfm

 
Messages:2355
Registered:December 2012
Location: Russian Federation
One problem with scopes in NCTH is that they don't need skill to be used.
In reality, if you give a 4x scope to unskilled shooter, he will actually shoot worse than with iron sights, especially when weapon is not mounted on surface.
And using of high power scopes needs very special training.
The only thing that currently limits CTH with high power scopes is overall CTH cap.
In reality, 4x magnification does not simply translate to 4x CTH improvement ( you can achieve this result only with high-skilled sniper )
So it cannot be compensated by ini settings, and is probably the man flaw in NCTH system, often pointed by players ( including dravak, who actually started this discussion :rant2: )

Apart from that, Silversurfer's suggested settings with all corrections seem to be very good for 1.13 :bluecool:


Re: Cth/INI Settings for new stable release[message #330194] Thu, 30 January 2014 11:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2762
Registered:May 2009
You already got me thinking about adding some "scope effectiveness" to the game. I think it will be based on marksmanship and experience and use the AIM_MARKS (default 3.0) and AIM_EXP (default 1.0) modifiers to weight the two factors. I planned to make it 50% fixed / 50% variable effectiveness but this could also be an ini setting.

It would work like this:

fixed part:
This is what a shooter always has. So if that value is set to 50 and the shooter has a 2x scope he will use it as 1x scope.

variable part:
This is what the shooter will get based on marksmanship and experience. Special traits will be handled separately.

example - shooter with 2x scope, 80 marksmanship, level 5:

fixed part is 50% so 2.0 * 0.5 = 1.0
variable part is also 50% so ( 2.0 * 0.5 ) * ( 3.0 * 80 + 1.0 * 5 * 10.0 ) / 4 / 100 = 0.725

When we add these we get a scope factor of 1.725.

If we say that everything is variable this shooter would only get:
fixed part is 2.0 * 0 = 0.0
variable part is ( 2.0 * 1.0 ) * ( 3.0 * 80 + 1.0 * 5 * 10.0 ) / 4 / 100 = 1.45

Expert snipers should always get 100% scope effectiveness.
Marksman and expert rangers should always get at least 80% because they have scope training.
Hunters could get at least 60% because of some scope training.

So let's take the first example from above and pretend that the merc is a marksman. The variable part would only grant him 0.725 points. Because he is a marksman he will have at least 0.8 so his scope factor would be 1.8. That's a small increase compared to a normal soldier with the same attributes.
In the second calculation his effective scope factor would be 1.6 compared to 1.45 of a normal soldier.
A hunter with the above attributes would not benefit from his minimum 60%. His attributes have already brought him over the threshold.

What do you think about that?

Re: Cth/INI Settings for new stable release[message #330195] Thu, 30 January 2014 11:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
yarco

 
Messages:31
Registered:October 2013
Sevenfm
One problem with scopes in NCTH is that they don't need skill to be used.
In reality, if you give a 4x scope to unskilled shooter, he will actually shoot worse than with iron sights, especially when weapon is not mounted on surface.
And using of high power scopes needs very special training.
The only thing that currently limits CTH with high power scopes is overall CTH cap.
In reality, 4x magnification does not simply translate to 4x CTH improvement ( you can achieve this result only with high-skilled sniper )
So it cannot be compensated by ini settings, and is probably the man flaw in NCTH system, often pointed by players ( including dravak, who actually started this discussion :rant2: )

Apart from that, Silversurfer's suggested settings with all corrections seem to be very good for 1.13 :bluecool:

very interesting. is it possible to disallow using these scopes without proper training (perk)?
for example hunter can use 2x, 4x a 7x scopes, but cant use 10x scopes
sniper can use 7x and 10x scopes, but also get some penalisation for smaller scopes and so on...

[Updated on: Thu, 30 January 2014 11:47] by Moderator

Re: Cth/INI Settings for new stable release[message #330197] Thu, 30 January 2014 12:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3705
Registered:July 2009
JA2 has never and should never include the line 'You have to be at least lvl 9001 to use this mega cool sword'


Re: Cth/INI Settings for new stable release[message #330198] Thu, 30 January 2014 14:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2762
Registered:May 2009
I will never deny scope usage for any merc. The proposed "scope effectiveness" would make sure that the merc needs to know how to use them (marksmanship and experience).

Take a poor shooter like Ira for example. She is level 2 with 55 marksmanship. With fully dynamic scope effectiveness a 2x scope will leave her with a mag factor of 0.925. That is worse than iron sights so she would be better off without a scope. A 4x scope will help her a bit over long distances with a mag factor of 1.85 but the scope penalty will hit her hard when the target is too close.

I may also add a global scope effectiveness modifier which allows to increase/decrease the upper limit of the mag factor. Initially the modifier will be 1.0 so a 2x scope will provide max 2x mag factor as it is now. Players can increase (make scopes more potent) or decrease (make scopes less potent) the modifier.
With this modifier it will be possible to give expert snipers a bonus while the average merc still cannot reach full mag factor. A value of 1.1 is probably a good start.

Re: Cth/INI Settings for new stable release[message #330199] Thu, 30 January 2014 15:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gorro der Grüne

 
Messages:1476
Registered:March 2009
Location: Broadwurschd-City
to use a scope ANY scope is purely a matter of discipline and breathing - it will be learned within half a day or never
Re: Cth/INI Settings for new stable release[message #330203] Thu, 30 January 2014 17:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2762
Registered:May 2009
Gorro der Gr

Re: Cth/INI Settings for new stable release[message #330205] Thu, 30 January 2014 17:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2762
Registered:May 2009
CTH evaluation for the AI is fixed with revision 6855. AI is now much more willing to fire from farther away. Please test the new behaviour.

I was using the following values for my tests:

MAX_EFFECTIVE_RANGE_MULTIPLIER = 1.4
MAX_EFFECTIVE_RANGE_REDUCTION = 0.5
MAX_EFFECTIVE_USE_GRADIENT = TRUE

Re: Cth/INI Settings for new stable release[message #330206] Thu, 30 January 2014 17:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gorro der Grüne

 
Messages:1476
Registered:March 2009
Location: Broadwurschd-City
no he/she stars very slow and has to practice In the beginning this will be verrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrry slow and the usable distance will be short, but it can be used from the first day.

btw I forgot to mention strength
JA-wise about 60 for a slow shot, about 70 for 1 shot/turn and about 80 for more than one
examples are not for antimaterial rifles (I never shot one)

I learned shooting within a week, afterwards I only became quicker and my range improved (but not much 400m G3 prone without scope)

Since I was the best in that battalion I dare give some advice.

[Updated on: Thu, 30 January 2014 17:54] by Moderator

Re: Cth/INI Settings for new stable release[message #330210] Thu, 30 January 2014 21:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sevenfm

 
Messages:2355
Registered:December 2012
Location: Russian Federation
http://i.imgur.com/KgBgEz7.jpg
The main factors affecting scope effectiveness are:

1. Shooter's general ability to use scope
Optical sights (except reflex sight) need to keep eye straightly on the optical line.
Any merc with a basic training (a least 50-60 MRK) should be able to use them correctly.

2. Shooter's ability to measure distance (bullet drop), wind and other factors and apply aiming corrections.
Not necessary for NORMAL_DISTANCE and maybe even up to 2 x NORMAL_DISTANCE, highly needed starting from 4x.

3. "Muzzle stability" - ability to keep aim on target.
In NCTH, scope magnification 2x allows shooter to see target as if it was at distance/2, and it's right.
Problem is that actual aiming distance is not changed - you should aim twice more precise even with 2x scope.
And at 10x distance your shooting skills should be amazing to use increased sight from 10x magnification to actual hit. (this includes a lot of factors from muzzle stability to the way that the trigger is pulled)
example picture:

4. Shooter's stance
This mainly affects "muzzle stability".
Shooting at ranges starting from 4xNORMAL_DISTANCE should be possible only when prone or with mounted weapon.

Unfortunately, i don't know NCTH system well enough to make actual shooting formulas.
One thing i am sure is that mag factor should be only a part of calculation and should not replace actual distance for calculating muzzle stability, bullet drop etc.

I think that Silversurfer's system looks good as it allows to tie scope effectiveness to MRK and EXP, so mag factor will not be simply translated to CTH factor for any merc.
I also think that it should be:
-optional
-ini configurable so players will be able to experiment and adjust it to their playing style (and maybe some adjustments will be needed to adapt this for bigmaps project)

EDIT: maybe shooters stance/ mounted weapon should play a role in that system? At least it allows to greatly improve weapon stability and reduce tremor, and that is critical for distant/high precision shots.
Even a high skilled super-sniper cannot make successful shot with 10x scope at 1.5km while standing.

[Updated on: Thu, 30 January 2014 21:34] by Moderator



Re: Cth/INI Settings for new stable release[message #330211] Thu, 30 January 2014 21:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Off_Topic

 
Messages:1019
Registered:January 2009
We should try to stay on topic lads, NCTH is what it is for now, we are just trying to find the best possible way to present it for the stable release.

I've started to keep of track of suggestions in the first post, if there is more than one suggestion for different settings, i'll colour code and catalogue them.

Going to start a new game with your recommended settings Silversurfer, i'll let you know how i get on.


Re: Cth/INI Settings for new stable release[message #330212] Thu, 30 January 2014 21:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sevenfm

 
Messages:2355
Registered:December 2012
Location: Russian Federation
I also vote for 6.0 - 10.0 is too much:
Quote:
GRAVITY_COEFFICIENT = 10.0
Bullets were dropping much too fast in the past once they reached effective weapon range. This makes them fly farther. This value wasn't tested. I took it because 4.0 was too low.
After some more playing I agree that 6.0 is sufficient.

Also agree with 20 for bonus:
Quote:
IRON_SIGHT_PERFORMANCE_BONUS = 15.0
After playing a bit more I agree that this value could be increased a little.
I guess 20 would be a good value which is not overpowered.

If we don't change NORMAL_SHOOTING_DISTANCE=70, then we should not change SCOPE_RANGE_MULTIPLIER = 1.0

[Updated on: Thu, 30 January 2014 21:46] by Moderator



Re: Cth/INI Settings for new stable release[message #330213] Thu, 30 January 2014 22:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2762
Registered:May 2009
Sevenfm

If we don't change NORMAL_SHOOTING_DISTANCE=70, then we should not change SCOPE_RANGE_MULTIPLIER = 1.0

We need to change that or anything above a 4x scope is completely useless. On normal maps there is no combat over distances > 40 tiles.

With SCOPE_RANGE_MULTIPLIER = 1.0 we have minimum scope distances of:
14 tiles (2x scope)
28 tiles (4x scope)
49 tiles (7x scope)
56 tiles (8x scope)
70 tiles (10x scope)

With 0.7 everything except the 10x scope is useful:
10 tiles (2x scope)
20 tiles (4x scope)
34 tiles (7x scope)
39 tiles (8x scope)
49 tiles (10x scope)

On big maps a multiplier of 1.0 is fine.

Re: Cth/INI Settings for new stable release[message #330236] Fri, 31 January 2014 19:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2762
Registered:May 2009
Making good progress on the scope effectiveness. There will be two new Ini settings:

; Scope effectiveness multiplier defines the upper limit of the scopes magnification
; that is achievable by any shooter. Scope magnification makes the size of the
; shooting aperture smaller, making shots more accurate. A multiplier of 1.0 will 
; make a 2x scope provide a maximum of 2x magnification (make the aiming reticule 
; half as large). A low skill shooter will only be able to achieve a much smaller
; effective magnification. Scope effectiveness is determined by a shooters experience
; and marksmanship attributes. Attributes are weighted by AIM_EXP and AIM_MARKS.
; Valid values are from 0.5 to 1.5 with a default of 1.1
SCOPE_EFFECTIVENESS_MULTIPLIER = 1.1

; Scope effectiveness minimum defines a minimum percentage of scope effectiveness 
; that any merc will achieve no matter how bad/good his skills are (see also description
; of SCOPE_EFFECTIVENESS_MULTIPLIER above) For example if the parameter is 50 a 2x scope
; will provide at least 1x magnification. The rest comes from the shooters experience
; and marksmanship. A value of 0 will make effectiveness calculation fully dynamic.
; 100 means that the shooters skills are irrelevant and he can use any scope to its
; full potential.
; Valid values are from 0 to 100 with a default of 50
SCOPE_EFFECTIVENESS_MINIMUM = 50
; Certain traits provide their own fixed minimum values. Defaults are 80 / 90 / 100
; If the shooter wants to exceed these he will have to do so by the normal formula.
SCOPE_EFFECTIVENESS_MINIMUM_RANGER = 80
SCOPE_EFFECTIVENESS_MINIMUM_MARKSMAN = 90
SCOPE_EFFECTIVENESS_MINIMUM_SNIPER = 100

The defaults have been set after careful consideration and some Excel work. Wink

How does it work?

In NCTH when using scopes a certain magnification factor is applied to the targeting aperture. The aperture is divided by this magnification factor. This makes the aperture smaller and the target easier to hit. The value of this magnification factor will now be altered by "scope effectiveness". Scope effectiveness simply defines how skilled a soldier is with scopes. This should take care of legitimate complaints that any soldier can use scopes like he is a professional sniper.

Some example values of magnification factors a soldier can achieve with the different scopes (rounded):
	Exp	Marks	2x	4x	7x	10x
Juan	4	21	1.38	2.77	4.84	6.92
Gasket	5	44	1.60	3.20	5.60	8.00
Carlos	6	62	1.78	3.55	6.22	8.88
Miguel	6	82	1.94	3.88	6.80	9.71
Lynx	3	99	2.00	4.00	7.00	10.00
Ranger at least		1.76	3.52	6.16	8.8
Marksman at least	1.98	3.96	6.93	9.90
Sniper always		2.2	4.4	7.7	11

As you can see the better the merc gets the better he can use a scope.
Juan has almost no benefit from the scope. As soon as AIM_TOO_CLOSE_SCOPE penalty takes effect his scope bonus will probably be destroyed by the penalty.
Miguel has much experience and good marksmanship and is able to use a scope quite well.
Lynx has no sniper training but his attributes are so good that he is able to achieve full bonus with a scope.

The special traits have at least the values above. Rangers and Marksmen can achieve higher values if their attributes are high enough.

You may say "Wtf? The sniper gets better magnification than the scope provides!". This is true and you can also achieve that with an Uber-Soldier BUT I think that this is a well deserved bonus for the real snipers to show those "I have a 7x scope! Now I'm a sniper!" wannabes out there what a real sniper can do. Wink

edit: Added Ini modifiers for traits.

[Updated on: Sun, 02 February 2014 12:26] by Moderator


Re: Cth/INI Settings for new stable release[message #330241] Fri, 31 January 2014 21:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Strohmann

 
Messages:288
Registered:August 2011
Location: Division Thought Crimes
[Nvm, was nonsense.]

Can the trait values please be made configurable, too? Are the values in your second table just used for the aperture size calculation or for the too-close penalty, too (snipers getting a worse minimum range than rookie shooters)?

[Updated on: Fri, 31 January 2014 21:57] by Moderator

Re: Cth/INI Settings for new stable release[message #330245] Fri, 31 January 2014 22:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2762
Registered:May 2009
Yes, they can be made configurable. I just didn't want to add 3 more modifiers.

The values in the table are just used for the aperture size calculation. The penalty applies equally to all shooters based on the real magnification of the scope * SCOPE_RANGE_MULTIPLIER like it used to be.


edit: I updated my previous post with Ini settings for the traits.

[Updated on: Sat, 01 February 2014 12:12] by Moderator


Re: Cth/INI Settings for new stable release[message #330271] Sun, 02 February 2014 12:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2762
Registered:May 2009
I just committed the latest changes to the code and also GameDir. Code revision 6870 contains the new scope effectiveness mechanism.

GameDir revision 1930 has the new defaults for scope effectiveness and also the other defaults. Since not too many people tend to try them and report back I decided to force the new defaults on everyone so hopefully they will at least come back and complain. Razz

Here are the values:
IRON_SIGHT_PERFORMANCE_BONUS = 20.0

LASER_PERFORMANCE_BONUS_HIP = 25.0
LASER_PERFORMANCE_BONUS_IRON = 15.0
LASER_PERFORMANCE_BONUS_SCOPE = 10.0

GRAVITY_COEFFICIENT = 6.0

SCOPE_RANGE_MULTIPLIER = 0.7

SCOPE_EFFECTIVENESS_MULTIPLIER = 1.1

SCOPE_EFFECTIVENESS_MINIMUM = 50
SCOPE_EFFECTIVENESS_MINIMUM_RANGER = 80
SCOPE_EFFECTIVENESS_MINIMUM_MARKSMAN = 90
SCOPE_EFFECTIVENESS_MINIMUM_SNIPER = 100

MAX_EFFECTIVE_RANGE_MULTIPLIER = 1.4
MAX_EFFECTIVE_RANGE_REDUCTION = 0.5
MAX_EFFECTIVE_USE_GRADIENT = TRUE


Re: Cth/INI Settings for new stable release[message #330410] Sat, 08 February 2014 01:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Drakwarg

 
Messages:8
Registered:February 2014
Not relevant to this thread

[Updated on: Fri, 14 February 2014 18:17] by Moderator

Re: Cth/INI Settings for new stable release[message #330423] Sat, 08 February 2014 11:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2762
Registered:May 2009
Anyone else thinks that these here should get some overhaul? They represent the base and aim CTH bonus for the different difficulty levels for enemy soldiers.
BASE_DIFFICULTY_NOVICE = -30.0
BASE_DIFFICULTY_EXPERIENCED = 0.0
BASE_DIFFICULTY_EXPERT = 20.0
BASE_DIFFICULTY_INSANE = 50.0

AIM_DIFFICULTY_NOVICE = -30.0
AIM_DIFFICULTY_EXPERIENCED = 0.0
AIM_DIFFICULTY_EXPERT = 20.0
AIM_DIFFICULTY_INSANE = 50.0


I play on experienced all the time and also do my testing on experienced and for me gameplay is balanced. The other difficulty modifiers are probably too high. I think they should be changed to something like:

BASE_DIFFICULTY_NOVICE = -15.0
BASE_DIFFICULTY_EXPERIENCED = 0.0
BASE_DIFFICULTY_EXPERT = 15.0
BASE_DIFFICULTY_INSANE = 30.0

AIM_DIFFICULTY_NOVICE = -15.0
AIM_DIFFICULTY_EXPERIENCED = 0.0
AIM_DIFFICULTY_EXPERT = 15.0
AIM_DIFFICULTY_INSANE = 30.0

or even:
BASE_DIFFICULTY_NOVICE = -10.0
BASE_DIFFICULTY_EXPERIENCED = 0.0
BASE_DIFFICULTY_EXPERT = 10.0
BASE_DIFFICULTY_INSANE = 20.0

AIM_DIFFICULTY_NOVICE = -10.0
AIM_DIFFICULTY_EXPERIENCED = 0.0
AIM_DIFFICULTY_EXPERT = 10.0
AIM_DIFFICULTY_INSANE = 20.0

The bonuses are cumulative so on higher difficulty levels the bonus can get quite high.

Re: Cth/INI Settings for new stable release[message #330430] Sat, 08 February 2014 14:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gambigobilla

 
Messages:705
Registered:July 2008
Do these settings effect both OCTH and NCTH?
Re: Cth/INI Settings for new stable release[message #330431] Sat, 08 February 2014 14:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3705
Registered:July 2009
No, no cthconstants.ini settings ever affects OCTH.


Re: Cth/INI Settings for new stable release[message #330432] Sat, 08 February 2014 14:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sevenfm

 
Messages:2355
Registered:December 2012
Location: Russian Federation
All settings from CTHConstants.ini (including these) apply only to NCTH.
At least should be.


Re: Cth/INI Settings for new stable release[message #330590] Fri, 14 February 2014 17:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Drakwarg

 
Messages:8
Registered:February 2014
Wondered why the enemy was quite so accurate on insane...

I always changed ini to AIM_DIFFICULTY_INSANE = 10.0 on insane difficulty + AR maps ( the number of enemy that combo means to troll though is enormous)..

but that might be a little to light for some people I wanted huge number of enemies that were not ridiculously accurate

tho the fact i they are cumulative meant they were still quite accurate (i left all other settings as is) and seemed to cope with NCTH system reasonably well. i.e. bad cover and or positioning meant almost certain death. good cover positioning meant they still had a go or at least tried to give suppression fire.

am currently early in my new (with new ini settings) NCTH play through.(no scopes or laser sights yet) so far seems reasonable as long as you stick to the high stat (Agil/dex/wis) mercs and that they have auto weapons/ machine-gunner traits ..

Bad : severely limits the number of mercs that are actually any use in a fire fight.( tho there are myriad alternative tactics to straight "fire fight")

Good : does especially with enlarged squad size make me specialize mercs into their roles.
: do actually end up using some of the ammo you find ( quite reasonable found ammo to shot ammo ratio.)
: snipers do actually have to wait for that perfect shot, (for head shots) but when they do are still suitable lethal.

[Updated on: Fri, 14 February 2014 18:24] by Moderator

Re: Cth/INI Settings for new stable release[message #330593] Fri, 14 February 2014 18:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Drakwarg

 
Messages:8
Registered:February 2014
Random comment

Suppression : do not let Barry,(both back ground and personality have negatives to his suppression resistance) get even slightly shot at, 1 or 2 pistol shot with no squad leader around and he is a quivering wreck. ( great for making mercs seem individuals)

: people more designed for front line battle fair far better especially if backed up with a squad leader.

[Updated on: Fri, 14 February 2014 18:20] by Moderator

Re: Cth/INI Settings for new stable release[message #331038] Tue, 04 March 2014 17:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tyxe

 
Messages:78
Registered:May 2012
Location: France
I play expert.
I love the new NCTH parameters, especially iron sight bonus.

Silversurfer setting are good.
I personally like better Base sight range 15/16 and iron sight bonus 25.
I'm ok with the standard BASE_DIFFICULTY and AIM_DIFFICULTY (maybe a bit high though).
MAX_EFFECTIVE_RANGE_MULTIPLIER = 1.4 is not enough IMO (at least at the beginning).
I should test much more the latest SCI though, i only played it recently (only played 1.13 4870 before, but an awful lot of it).

However i think a huge flaw of 1.13, NTCH or OCTH are the implementation of the scopes.
I felt something was very wrong with that (no challenge, bad behavior of the AI, mid game seem broken) so i tried very recently playing pure vanilla JA2 (discovered the game with 1.13, never played vanilla before).

The main huge difference is nothing give you a base sight advantage daytime in vanilla (not even sniper scope, well sun goggle give you 2 squares bonus which is only a 8% increase but even then only very infrequently : on bright day).
In vanilla the enemies are on the same foot as the player in term of sight range daytime, the gaming experience difference result is considerable.
Giving player realistic but monstrous sight bonus with scope completely change the dynamic of the game and break the gameplay and the AI, making it feel very wrong.


I like that the gunfight is done at higher range in 1.13 though, especially with the increase resolution, it feels right.
I also find that the AI can still be challenging with the right ini even if scopes give to the player a sight and magnification advantage.
However the AI can't adjust when every member of your team have a sight range bonus of at least 50% (even sun goggles give you a 10% sight increase daytime and a massive 20% in bright time).
Both the scope magnification bonus and the sight range bonus is so massively OP in 1.13 that whatever the ini tweaks are done, the only way the game to still be challenging is to massively increase the size of the opposition.

Finding the right scope magnification bonus and the scope sight range bonus for scopes is what should be done IMO.
The current values are nice, round and realistic but very bad in term of balance and completely change the nature of the combats.
Balance should be the first priority (sniper scope did not give you any sight range bonus in vanilla after all).

In 1.13 4870 i played with these values (base sight 16, expert) :
- scopex2/1.6 magnification factor/5% sight bonus
- scopex4/1.8 magnification factor/10% sight bonus
- scopex7/2.0 magnification factor/15% sight bonus
- scopex8/2.2 magnification factor/20% sight bonus
- scopex10/2.4 magnification factor/25% sight bonus
- sun goggles give a 5% sight bonus but only in bright day.
- night goggles v1/v2/v3/v4 give respectively a 10%/15%/20%/25% night sight bonus.

It worked well.
Only issue, as usual, being the beginning where having a scopex2 very soon if not right from the start is almost mandatory on expert(unless cheesing).
That's why i"m very happy about the new iron sight bonus feature for NCTH, it could change that.
Feel free to move my post to Playing unstable 6023 ! Comments topic, i hesitated to post it there or here.
Re: Cth/INI Settings for new stable release[message #331043] Tue, 04 March 2014 20:32 Go to previous message
sevenfm

 
Messages:2355
Registered:December 2012
Location: Russian Federation
@Tyxe
Increased sight range from scopes is known and old problem in 1.13.
Though AI sometimes looks through scopes for recon, it cannot use them effectively because of current AI limitations.
Possible solutions (some of them are implemented in mods):
1. Increase BSR to 18-20 and remove vision bonuses from scopes. Set average penalty for 'SHOOT UNSEEN', so that only snipers (with spotters) will be able to compensate it. Use spotters with binocs for scouting ans spotting.
2. Tweak scope magnifications and set small vision bonuses.
3. Tweak LOS/AI code.


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