Home » PLAYER'S HQ 1.13 » v1.13 General Gameplay Talk » OCTH vs NCTH
Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #348689 is a reply to message #332442]
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Fri, 03 February 2017 18:45
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cbasd |
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Messages:11
Registered:February 2017 |
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Hello
Sorry for bumping thread, but how to reduce AIM_TOO_CLOSE_SCOPE to the minimum ? I should set it for 0.0 ?
I dont want any penalties for using scopes
[Updated on: Fri, 03 February 2017 19:29] Report message to a moderator
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Private
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Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #348700 is a reply to message #348699]
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Fri, 03 February 2017 21:12
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cbasd |
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Messages:11
Registered:February 2017 |
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silversurfer wrote on Fri, 03 February 2017 20:26If you want to remove the aim too close penalty completely you should set AIM_TOO_CLOSE_THRESHOLD to 0.0.
I cannot find this in cthconstants.ini
I have version (7609)
[Updated on: Fri, 03 February 2017 21:16] Report message to a moderator
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Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #351939 is a reply to message #351936]
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Sat, 06 January 2018 22:07
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townltu |
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Messages:384
Registered:December 2017 Location: here |
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I play both, and often change during a running campaign
when the actual cth system gets boring or i am too disappointed by the results as both have their flaws.
Thats done by flipping the byte at offset C06338h in ram from 00h to 01h,
without any recognizeable issues in the game,
which brings me to the main reason for this message, my question:
Why has the Ncth/Octh switch been moved from the options that are accessable during gameplay
(as it still was e.g. in 4870, btw is its number just a coincidence? as we start at tile 4870)
to a spot where a hack is required to switch on the fly,
this forces most players to drop a campaign when they are not satisfied with their cth selection.
Well, perhaps now more are able to switch cth whenever they like ;)
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Master Sergeant
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Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #351948 is a reply to message #351941]
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Sun, 07 January 2018 14:58
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townltu |
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Messages:384
Registered:December 2017 Location: here |
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silversurferThe switch was removed just like many other experimental switches because it wasn't needed anymore. NCTH isn't experimental anymore. It works fine and if some player doesn't like its default settings he can always change them.
I agree with your statement but cant recognize an answer to my question
why was it moved to a spot where it is accesable only on start of a new game?
There are reasons to switch cth amd other start options:
In my actual campaign with experimental exe, shooting at moving targets with octh appears broken,
i am glad to continue the campaign with ncth which i might have ended otherwise.
Some Guy on YT played an IM campaign and repeatedly got iirc freezes(or some other gamebraking stuff) in combat
so he was glad to do the ram hack and continue the LP.
etc
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Master Sergeant
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Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #351952 is a reply to message #351950]
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Sun, 07 January 2018 15:38
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townltu |
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Messages:384
Registered:December 2017 Location: here |
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I did ot intend to offense you or make negative statements about your work,
so i tried to express that it was only my personal impression by adding "appears" in front of "broken".
Sorry!
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Master Sergeant
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Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #351959 is a reply to message #351955]
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Mon, 08 January 2018 15:06
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LatZee |
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Messages:185
Registered:December 2015 |
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SmokinGun wrote on Mon, 08 January 2018 01:48
With Arul Revisited 1.4 (an older version of NCTH) at its most stable 7609 release, it felt unplayable using NCTH. While playing both Arul Vacations 1.8 and Urban Chaos 4.5 NCTH seemed great. I'm guessing other peoples experiences vary with tastes and versions/mods being played. But I can certainly affirm NCTH varies wildly in playability and enjoyment based on its build. So essentially disabling the option to switch between OCTH/NCTH in the preferences can be a game breaker playing older mods.
On the other hand, I'm right now in early phase (32 progress) of a playthrough with the latest AFS (so much like 4.5 Urban Chaos), and honestly I'm bored to death. My sniper IMP got some .30car starting rifle and with sig sight bought from Tony on day 1 he so far hits 70% of headshots from max range. Got him M1 carbine with no32 4x scope recently, and now he does it even outside of range (literally the moment anyone enters the visual range of 4x scope, it's bullet to the head time, even though it is kinda outside of rifle range by some margin). Everyone else is completely useless, Ira spots for him, everybody else is here just to make some noise and discourage enemies from approaching him. It's even more OCTH than OCTH but it is horrible NCTH it is like if you read the idea of NCTH and then do it completely the other way round
And that is perfectly fine. The whole point of a modable project like this is that everyone can adjust the game to his taste. But the whole idea of NCTH was to move away from that kind of super gamey gameplay. For some weird reason, in reality, modern armies don't just throw away their assault rifles and equip everybody with WW1 bolt action rifles and go around headshotting everyone. Instead, NCTH tries to be more "realistic", making volume of fire more important and strictly better than super precise single shots. Just like it has been in real life for quite some time. It wasn't always super succesful at that, but newer versions do it pretty fine. And some mods like SDO make it even better, both by fixing weapon progression to make more sense with NCTH and modifying the NCTH itself.
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Staff Sergeant
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Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #351960 is a reply to message #351959]
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Mon, 08 January 2018 16:13
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townltu |
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Messages:384
Registered:December 2017 Location: here |
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LatZee wrote on Mon, 08 January 2018 15:06...
And that is perfectly fine. The whole point of a modable project like this is that everyone can adjust the game to his taste. But the whole idea of NCTH was to move away from that kind of super gamey gameplay. For some weird reason, in reality, modern armies don't just throw away their assault rifles and equip everybody with WW1 bolt action rifles and go around headshotting everyone. Instead, NCTH tries to be more "realistic", making volume of fire more important and strictly better than super precise single shots. Just like it has been in real life for quite some time. It wasn't always super succesful at that, but newer versions do it pretty fine. And some mods like SDO make it even better, both by fixing weapon progression to make more sense with NCTH and modifying the NCTH itself.
Armies dont throw away their ARs because they allow everybody to get a kill every 200-400(?) rounds,
(so compared to real numbers a crappy mrk 60 merc is already a good shot,
and realistic ammo/kill ratio would probably make JA2 weapons unuseable before anybody dies, how cool would that be irl!)
while only a few people are able to combine the vectors of target&projectile in their head
and also coordinate body&tool so that both meet at the desired spot.
Besides JA2 was imo not designed as an army vs army game, its more guerilla warfare.
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Master Sergeant
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Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #351962 is a reply to message #351960]
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Mon, 08 January 2018 16:24
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LatZee |
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Messages:185
Registered:December 2015 |
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townltu wrote on Mon, 08 January 2018 15:13
Armies dont throw away their ARs because they allow everybody to get a kill every 200-400(?) rounds,
(so compared to real numbers a crappy mrk 60 merc is already a good shot,
and realistic ammo/kill ratio would probably make JA2 weapons unuseable before anybody dies, how cool would that be irl!)
while only a few people are able to combine the vectors of target&projectile in their head
and also coordinate body&tool so that both meet at the desired spot.
Besides JA2 was imo not designed as an army vs army game, its more guerilla warfare.
Ah yes, sorry, guerrilas all over the world are throwing their AKs to the garbage because Mosin Nagant with a PEM scope is a weapon of mass destruction and AK is basically a club that can be used to make some noise that might scare and suppress people at distance. Just like in AFS/UC and OCTH
It's ok. You like OCTH and want NCTH to be like it. As mentioned, there are mods that do it, there are ways to do it yourself if you want to, or you can, you know, use OCTH, it's not like it is gone. But let's not pretend that it makes any sense NCTH is goint in the other direction by design, and complaining about it misses the point completely.
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Staff Sergeant
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Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #351963 is a reply to message #351962]
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Mon, 08 January 2018 17:10
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townltu |
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Messages:384
Registered:December 2017 Location: here |
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LatZee wrote on Mon, 08 January 2018 16:24... Pls read my 1st message in this thread, while i like both its not about N vs O -cth
but the placement of the ncth/octh switch, (so it was somewhat off topic;)
and add to that the switches for iron man and interrupt system(even more ot!)
which both also appear(IM 2 and IS 3 campaigns) to have no negative effect on the game when switched on the fly.
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Master Sergeant
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Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #351964 is a reply to message #351963]
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Mon, 08 January 2018 17:55
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LatZee |
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Messages:185
Registered:December 2015 |
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townltu wrote on Mon, 08 January 2018 16:10Pls read my 1st message in this thread, while i like both its not about N vs O -cth
but the placement of the ncth/octh switch, (so it was somewhat off topic;)
and add to that the switches for iron man and interrupt system(even more ot!)
which both also appear(IM 2 and IS 3 campaigns) to have no negative effect on the game when switched on the fly.
And that is also perfectly fine, I'm always for more options, when possible, but if the guys actually working on it don't think so, oh well...
I, kinda, "took exception" to calling some really "bad" NCTH implementations good (which doesn't really mean that it is a bad CTH system in itself, just that making NCTH work, more or less, like OCTH is not a good NCTH implementaion). SDO is a good NCTH implementaion, it makes NCTH work better, while maintaing the goals of NCTH (making shooting work more in line with reality, avoiding headshot game, increasing the number of shots needed per hit, making suppresion important, and so on...), AFS/UC is, at this point, more of a OCTH pretending to be NCTH which is, as I said, perfectly fine. But calling it a good NCTH system is completely missing the point of NCTH.
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Staff Sergeant
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Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #352010 is a reply to message #351964]
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Sat, 13 January 2018 20:04
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Shadow |
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Messages:39
Registered:December 2008 Location: Argentina |
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While I like the concept of NCTH and its higher reliance on volume of fire, I'm struggling quite a bit with it (Experienced difficulty). I fear that for the sake of balancing later gameplay, the result is making the already challenging early game even harder.
Your mercs are generally outnumbered, and therefore the requirement for higher volume of fire plays in the enemy's favour when they need such benefit the least, when everyone has nothing but pistols. I remember the need to close the range early on, from my days of playing 1.13 years ago (version 3000-something, I think), but now even night fights are troublesome in a way I don't remember them being before.
I often find myself at max range (12+ tiles) and unable to get closer to get a better shot without massively exposing my guys, to the point day or night makes little difference because I'm already spotted at that distance even without NVGs. In that situation, the enemy can easily afford taking pot shots until someone takes a bad hit. I can't. Cover seems more fickle than ever, feeling somewhat ineffective unless the merc is in a perfect position against a single enemy. Against 2-3, the "danger view" commonly becomes red all over unless the character falls back considerably, only to repeat the same situation at a later time.
The only times I can operate with an acceptable degree of effectiveness is basically when I have tools to break line of sight, like buildings or very dense cover (thick woods). This gives way to boring exploitative tactics, like the classic "hunker down in a shack and shoot them down one by one as they walk through the door". Most wilderness fights lack such, so they're a pain.
Overall, it just doesn't feel fun, between frustrating straight fights with uncomfortable levels of savescumming, and dull exploits.
So, ranting aside, what am I doing wrong? How can I alleviate these issues without turning the later game into a cakewalk? That's sort of what happened with the old system.
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Private 1st Class
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Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #352012 is a reply to message #332442]
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Sat, 13 January 2018 23:41
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LatZee |
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Messages:185
Registered:December 2015 |
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Well, now that is a problem... for some reason, the game is still using the old way of weapon progression where first everyone is fighting with sticks and stones, and then at some point someone invents a pistol and so on while that kind of progression makes some kind of sense with OCTH where weapon range is THE defining (could even be called sole important) weapon stat, but it makes no sense whatsoever with NCTH. In NCTH, pistols should never be first choice weapon (like they are not in reality, for no military or paramilitary organization).
There are couple of ways how to solve this. You can use one of mods that changes equipment/progression. Silversurfer mentioned a mod that he used that is called Lev's progression, found at http://thepit.ja-galaxy-forum.com/index.php?t=msg&th=22160&goto=347016&#msg_347016
The files might be gone, but I can probably find them and put them somewhere if needed
My poison of choice is SDO, found here... http://thepit.ja-galaxy-forum.com/index.php?t=msg&th=20708&goto=351386&#msg_351386
It is also kinda problematic, as it hasn't been updated for quite some time and will have problems with newer versions of 1.13, but is perfectly usable with, for example, 7609 version (which has the possible advantage of Sevenfm's modifications being available, http://thepit.ja-galaxy-forum.com/index.php?t=msg&th=21864&start=0& ). Again, I have a, for personal use, kinda up to date "lite" version (lite as I removed most of the stuff that wasn't really tied to weapon progression/performance, like changes to mercs, vehicles and so on, to make it easier to keep it updated with changes), if someone wants it
AFS, http://thepit.ja-galaxy-forum.com/index.php?t=msg&th=20916&start=0& is also an option, although, as I said, it is kinda getting more OCTHish, both in weapon progession (so it is often still pistols and so on early), and performance. But it is still an excellent addition, certainly worthy of a try.
The other solution which is probably used by many people is, well, Bobby Ray put it on higher qulity, give yourselfs some more money at the start and poof, problems solved
You can also make more than 1 IMP, they get decent-ish weapons at the start (if they have some weapons related skill, so auto weapons, marksman and so on).
The last two "solutions" have the advantage of being asymmetrical, as the opponents will be stuck in the pistol land early, unlike you. So that would make early game a bit easier.
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Staff Sergeant
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Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #352013 is a reply to message #352011]
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Sat, 13 January 2018 23:51
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Shadow |
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Messages:39
Registered:December 2008 Location: Argentina |
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silversurfer wrote on Sat, 13 January 2018 16:15I haven't played in a long time but last time I played JA2 1.13 I used a modification for enemy gear which gives them more old rifles, shotguns and SMGs from the start. Once I was through the first fight I had a nice assortment of starter weapons. My IMP had good equipment from the start because IMPs get trait specific weapons which helped a lot. Of course one can always hire mercs with better equipment to have an easier start but that usually means less mercs because of financial restrictions. Also I always try to scavenge some stuff from wilderness sectors and farms before going for a town.
Hmm, that's interesting. Would that require detailed tweaking or would bumping up REGULAR_EQUIPMENT_QUALITY_MODIFIER and perhaps ADMIN_EQUIPMENT_QUALITY_MODIFIER a couple of points do? Don't know about ELITE_EQUIPMENT_QUALITY_MODIFIER, since it seems that gets a bonus by default.
How do enemy loadouts work for the three enemy levels by default? Does enemy loadout generate when you first encounter a team of goons, or earlier?
Gotta check out those mods, LatZee. Thank you for your comments! The problem with mods is usually compatibility with the latest builds, but we'll see.
EDIT: Damn, Lev's progression mod is 404. Anyone care to host it somewhere?
[Updated on: Sun, 14 January 2018 00:32]
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Private 1st Class
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Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #352019 is a reply to message #332442]
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Sun, 14 January 2018 15:06
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Shadow |
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Messages:39
Registered:December 2008 Location: Argentina |
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Excellent, thanks!
What'd you guys say is the right Bobby Ray's quality setting using Lev's progression? The standard x2 seems insufficient to keep up with the modified enemy progress. I don't think Lev modded BR. The default's supposed to represent one step ahead of that, from the looks of it.
Can the setting be changed mid-game? I'm several days into my current playthrough.
Also, I've taken a peek into SDO's CTHConstants.ini, and there are substantial differences compared to the latest unstable build (8511). I could spot the following at first glance if I'm reading correctly:
- Higher iron sight effectiveness (33 > 25) + slightly higher laser sight effect on iron (17 > 15)
- Tighter maximum range (1.0 < 1.1)
- Higher effect of gravity past max range (4.5 < 6.0)
- No change when shooting targets from the side (1.0 < 2.0)*
- Considerably higher bullet deviation (8.0 > 5.0)
- MUCH higher AI range tolerance for shots (1.75 > 1.4)
- Considerably higher accuracy drop past max range (0.85 > 0.5)
*This is a tricky one for me: normally, shooting at someone from the side shouldn't make much of a difference. But if the target's prone and the shooter's somewhat close, the impact should be huge.
I'm sure there are finer changes, but I think the major effect of the aforementioned tweaks is that the AI will try and shoot from much farther away (175% max range instead of 140%) and with harsher effects on its own accuracy, between the altered general accuracy drop, gravity and deviation beyond max range.
This can be assumed to result in a lot of wasted time and ammo on the enemy's part. Certainly an easier time for my mercs and I, to some extent: it'd help entertain Deidranna's goons when spotted from afar. Close quarters combat wouldn't change much, it seems, other than encouraging the player to stay within effective range. Worth a try, overall.
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Private 1st Class
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Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #352026 is a reply to message #352019]
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Sun, 14 January 2018 18:41
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LatZee |
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Messages:185
Registered:December 2015 |
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Shadow86 wrote on Sun, 14 January 2018 14:06
I'm sure there are finer changes, but I think the major effect of the aforementioned tweaks is that the AI will try and shoot from much farther away (175% max range instead of 140%) and with harsher effects on its own accuracy, between the altered general accuracy drop, gravity and deviation beyond max range.
This can be assumed to result in a lot of wasted time and ammo on the enemy's part. Certainly an easier time for my mercs and I, to some extent: it'd help entertain Deidranna's goons when spotted from afar. Close quarters combat wouldn't change much, it seems, other than encouraging the player to stay within effective range. Worth a try, overall.
SDO makes larger general changes, so it can't be judged only on CHTConstants.
First thing, it is a complete weapon progression rebalance. There are smgs and rifles available from coolness 1. Most mercs (and enemies) get them by default. There are even early game machine guns (like BAR) which can be acquired very early (from day 1 at Tony with a bit of luck). Also, shotguns are more useful, bordering on even overpowered with the amount of suppression the buckshot causes
It uses longer base view range, which creates situations where visual acquisition range is not necessarily conductive to immediate shooting. So combat gets less "plop down to the ground and shoot at everything you see as soon as you see it". Early on, you'll generally have to get a bit closer or shoot just for suppression. Sometimes, if there is not a good way to flank/advance, you might end up in a bit of a stalemate, where you can only exchange inefficient fire with the enemy, which is basically the way that combat in open spaces looks in reality those changes in CTHConstants are to encourage AI to shoot from those distances which are a bit longer than the vanilla 1.13.
Since it is expected that you'll waste more ammo, it is more readily available, both in drops and from Tony.
Next big change (which is, mechanically, horribly gamey, but useful) is that lower magnification scopes (up to 5x or so) dont give vision range bonuses. This more or less fixes the biggest JA2 problem nowadays, that AI is bad at using scopes, and so, once you get them, the game kinda degenerates into you shooting at them and they never even seeing you. So, as the scopes are less gamebreaking, they are much more available, so 3x rifle scopes or the old 4x scopes (like no.32 or PEM) are very easily obtainable from the start, which helps with NCTH,
Now, a bad thing (if you are used to the "normal" 1.13) is that even with a scope, rifles are still relatively bad. Not useless. But relatively bad. In vanilla 1.13 or something like AFS, if you make, for example, a sniper expert IMP and and get him something like M1 carbine with No.32 scope, they become one man army (or at least they would, if M1 carbine wasn't kinda unreasonably bad in vanilla 1.13 having same range as the Thompson or 9mm carbines, which is not very realistic ). Quite literally. In SDO, someone like that is going to be useful because he can kinda break those stalemate situations, by getting a hit every now and then at those larger distances, but they will miss a lot. Generally the hit rates are lower, and that means that it can be dangerous getting caught with a slow firing weapon if enemies do get closer. Especially so if you use some kind of scope that blocks iron sights as that means you'll basically never hit anyone if they get too close. Meaning, having some kind of quicker sidearm (a pistol, machine pistol or smaller smg or even a small shotgun) is absolutely necessary.
It also means that rifles are horrible weapons for unskilled mercs. So if you want your Ira, MD or Barry to be kinda useful, it is better to give them something that can at least be useful even if they never hit anything, but still do a bit of suppression. Or score a lucky hit simply through the increased volume of fire.
There are a lot more changes, it is generally harder to carry around lots of stuff and so on and on. It certainly takes some time to get used to all the changes (or revert some of them if you don't like them). And of course, it is not for everyone. It's perfectly reasonable not to like it. It would be very boring if everyone liked the same things
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Staff Sergeant
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Re: OCTH vs NCTH[message #352035 is a reply to message #352034]
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Mon, 15 January 2018 18:38
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LatZee |
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Messages:185
Registered:December 2015 |
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Shadow wrote on Mon, 15 January 2018 15:53Which bits of SDO are you keeping in order to achieve compatibility with the latest dev builds, LatZee?
Well, the really necessary part is updating AmmoTypes.xml or else weapons do practically no damage. Besides that, I add items that come with new features (so, anti air missiles, bear traps, riot shields and stuff like that), keep JA2_Options and Skills_Settings.xml updated, and all the rest I have either removed, as things like Merc changes I consider more of Strohmann's preferance than the core part of SDO, or are not all that super important (like adjusting new merchants a bit and non essential stuff like that).
As I said, I do it for personal use, seeing as I did kick out or change some things, wouldn't really want to distribute it as I don't know whether Strohmann would be happy with it, but I can put it up somewhere if you want to give it a try, as it would be stupid for you to have to do some of the drudge work updating it again
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