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Zero chance-to-hit on night time interrupts[message #354003]

Thu, 12 July 2018 19:34

RedFaction

Messages:47
Registered:July 2018

Hi !

A screenshot is better than a thousand words :

I cannot use links until I posted 5 messages so I put spaces in the link, sorry :/
h t t p s://i.imgur.com/GNAl3wr.png

The displayed layout is Dimitri's visibility.
His weapon is a Colt M4 Commando (range 30, but anyway it seems to happen with any weapon).

At night, every time I got an interrupt I have ZERO chance to hit !
The enemy is WAY in range I should be able to shoot him dead.

My only options are :
1. Pass my turn, loosing the benefit of the interrupt and loosing any chance to get another one for this merc
2. Make just one step toward the enemy to magically being able to shoot

Of course both options result in being shot by the enemy, either because he can finish his turn getting in range and shoot you (option 1) or because he will get an interrupt on you while you step toward him (option 2).

Any idea what's going on ?

Game version : SCI_JA2v1.13_Revision_8575_on_GameDir_2428

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Re: Zero chance-to-hit on night time interrupts[message #354008 is a reply to message #354003]

Fri, 13 July 2018 16:14

Hawkeye

Messages:2234
Registered:October 2005
Location: Australia

Here's the pic

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Re: Zero chance-to-hit on night time interrupts[message #354011 is a reply to message #354008]

Fri, 13 July 2018 17:06

RedFaction

Messages:47
Registered:July 2018

Thanks

As you see 0 chance to hit.

I'm using OCTH btw.

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Re: Zero chance-to-hit on night time interrupts[message #354012 is a reply to message #354011]

Fri, 13 July 2018 17:10

sevenfm

Messages:2444
Registered:December 2012
Location: Russian Federation

@RedFaction enemy is invisible (he is in red zone), so CTH = 0. There's a problem sometimes in 1.13 when the game shows enemy when he is actually invisible to mercs, it happens usually on the edge of sight distance.

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Re: Zero chance-to-hit on night time interrupts[message #354013 is a reply to message #354012]

Fri, 13 July 2018 17:30

RedFaction

Messages:47
Registered:July 2018

sevenfm wrote on Fri, 13 July 2018 17:10

@RedFaction enemy is invisible (he is in red zone), so CTH = 0. There's a problem sometimes in 1.13 when the game shows enemy when he is actually invisible to mercs, it happens usually on the edge of sight distance.

Hi sevenfm happy

When you say 1.13 you mean stock 1.13 ? Because I'm using the last build (SCI_JA2v1.13_Revision_8575_on_GameDir_2428)

It actually happens very often, if not all the time.
And indeed it's always at the edge of sight, because he has to cross it obviously big grin

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Re: Zero chance-to-hit on night time interrupts[message #354017 is a reply to message #354013]

Fri, 13 July 2018 18:48

townltu

Messages:385
Registered:December 2017
Location: here

You can place the nvg into the mercs pocket and equip it on interrupt.
Should substancially increase the chance to hit since the enemy is not only completely visible but also one tile closer.
May of course result in no interrupt at all if camo/stance etc of enemy outperforms mercs camo&stance etc.
If you play with AP costs to access inventory,
its possible to change to no AP cost in a running campaign with an simple ram hack, will post full details on demand.
Besides, i guess Dimi's nvg is gen I in not perfect condition,
only if its repaired to 100% mercs get the full +1 vision range bonus, and thus better cth.

Btw, similar effect on cth also for sniper with some vegetation in line to still visible target at mid_to_long range distance,
compared to same distance with clear sight. (use gabbi teleport to compare)

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Re: Zero chance-to-hit on night time interrupts[message #354018 is a reply to message #354017]

Fri, 13 July 2018 19:02

RedFaction

Messages:47
Registered:July 2018

townltu wrote on Fri, 13 July 2018 18:48

You can place the nvg into the mercs pocket and equip it on interrupt.
Should substancially increase the chance to hit since the enemy is not only completely visible but also one tile closer.
May of course result in no interrupt at all if camo/stance etc of enemy outperforms mercs camo&stance etc.
If you play with AP costs to access inventory,
its possible to change to no AP cost in a running campaign with an simple ram hack, will post full details on demand.
Besides, i guess Dimi's nvg is gen I in not perfect condition,
only if its repaired to 100% mercs get the full +1 vision range bonus, and thus better cth.

Hi townltu happy

You are right, he has a nvg gen I in 68% condition.
I'm just startled by the fact he can indeed see the enemy and get the interruption, but cannot do anything about it ROFL

As you suggest I think it's just better to get rid of the night vision and to get a "real" interrupt when the enemy is one step closer to you.

[Updated on: Fri, 13 July 2018 19:02]

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Re: Zero chance-to-hit on night time interrupts[message #354021 is a reply to message #354018]

Sat, 14 July 2018 01:16

Gopas

Messages:285
Registered:June 2016
Location: Norway

I have noticed myself that diagonal shots have an abysmal drop when it comes to accuracy, as opposed with straight shots. but 0%....daaaaamn ! I am also using the 1.13 8575 but i prefer to fight during day using sniper rifles for loooooong range engagements. I also use OCTH.

Nipson anomimata mi monan opsin

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Re: Zero chance-to-hit on night time interrupts[message #354606 is a reply to message #354021]

Fri, 31 August 2018 01:24

ZedJA2

Messages:205
Registered:January 2018

I'm going to post something related here also. This is in 8589 SCI build.

I found that with the Beretta Storm "Rifle" my marksman hit only 2 times out of 25 times at 5 hex-8 hex range (counting save scums I tried this maybe 60 times in 8 different situations). This seemed, in the end, to be related to having a 2x Scope on the Storm (with NVG and with a Silencer). Taking away the Silencer did not help. Removing the NVG at night, did not help. But removing the 2x Scope seemed to help a lot.

Is the 2x Scope only meant to be on pistols? It equips on the Storm, but I don't recall 2x scopes, in the older days of 7609 being for rifles. At full aim, my Marksman who was specialized for rifles per background and bonuses, literally could not hit the broad side of a barn with the Storm. If I savescummed still missed as well. But switching to a M1911, she consistently made the same shots.

So I am very wary now to even use the 2x scope, or mix it with Night Vision, even though not sure that mattered.

Perhaps Marksmen cannot truly use the Beretta Storm .45 as a rifle, or cannot use it with the 2x scope as such. Sorry if posted in wrong thread. What I'm getting at is that some of this could be gear mix or attachment related beyond the mere NVG choice, so I posted here.

My theory here is that 2x Scope does not work with NVG. This actually might make sense, as wearing both probably would not work. Perhaps one of you could answer this, especially someone like SevenFM or Flugente.

[Updated on: Fri, 31 August 2018 01:26]

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Re: Zero chance-to-hit on night time interrupts[message #354610 is a reply to message #354606]

Fri, 31 August 2018 13:41

LatZee

Messages:159
Registered:December 2015

All scopes have an optimal range at which they function. They also have minimal range, after which they start being counter productive. 5 tiles is too close for any kind of scope, even the small 2x scope at that point is giving you maluses to hit. NCTH cursor should be showing "effective" magnification factor used when you aim at someone, on the left side. If that magnification factor is red color and significantly smaller than the scope's (meaning if it shows something like 1.2 for 2x scope) you are better off not using the scope. Depending on the mod/scope/weapon you might be able to cycle to iron sights using . or if that is not possible, it's better to remove it completely ahead of time if you expect to fight in such close quarters. Also, having some kind of sidearm is an option, whether a pistol or a small SMG or shotgun, for times that your scoped rifle is not really useful at such distances.

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Re: Zero chance-to-hit on night time interrupts[message #354611 is a reply to message #354606]

Fri, 31 August 2018 13:56

silversurfer

Messages:2798
Registered:May 2009

From your description it seems that you are using NCTH system where using scopes at close range will cause a big penalty to the hit chance. This can be seen on the scope factor on the targeting reticule. It's red instead of white if you're too close to the target. Also it shows a zoom factor that is smaller than the scopes native zoom factor. The minimum distance for scopes is calculated by the formula:

NORMAL_SHOOTING_DISTANCE * SCOPE_RANGE_MULTIPLIER * scope factor / 10

With default values in CTHConstants.ini this means 9,8 tiles (70 * 0,7 * 2 / 10).

So at night it's best not to use scopes. Either use a different weapon, remove the scope or switch to reflex/iron sights.

edit: LatZee was quicker...

[Updated on: Fri, 31 August 2018 13:57]

Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

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Re: Zero chance-to-hit on night time interrupts[message #354631 is a reply to message #354611]

Sat, 01 September 2018 07:44

ZedJA2

Messages:205
Registered:January 2018

@ LatZee and silversurfer

Quality posts by both of you, thanks very much for the information. You are always helpful Silversurfer, but I must say this is the 3rd post in a few days where I've noted that LatZee has some really in-depth knowledge of the game, very much enjoy his illuminating posts. I am using NCTH and also the Enhanced Item Description system. I had not considered that the 2x Scope might have some malus, even at close range. I also completely forgot, as is usual, about using B to switch Scope modes. Not sure if I can aim down sights or not, I've only used the B key in past for Burst mode.

(Similarly I have to start exploring the $ key options and so on. I've never even refilled a canteen yet, well maybe once long ago via it. Now also the Assignments are much more in-depth due to Flugente's continued expansion of such features.)

However, I did find that with NVG the 2x Scope was virtually useless on the Beretta .45 Storm (perhaps called C4 Storm), an any range, from 5 hexes to 14 hexes, though possibly worse up close. Your reply Silversurfer, explains that well. It also makes sense and sort of goes with why in real life unless the scope has the NV built in, one is going to use either the scope or just the NV, usually NV at night. Appreciate the in-depth info, so I'm guessing that CTHConstants.ini defines Normal Shooting Distance for each weapon or situation.

I will definitely have to look better at the NCTH Targeting Cursor Overlay and search for this magnification factor on the left? I'll admit that I have been ignoring most of the overlay. Is there a place for good info on the current NCTH system?

Will this key info you mentioned be clear to me (the malus) in the Enhanced Description Box for the 2x Scope on once installed on the Beretta Storm Rifle?

I also noticed last session that the Enhanced Description Box does put things like SMG or Rifle at the end of most (if not all) weapons. Are these what the Backgrounds Bonuses go by to determine if a Rifle bonus is active (using a qualified rifle), etc.? Or to determine if Gunslinger bonus applies (to the right type of pistol or single shot mcp)?

Last I read on all this was, I believe, from Headrock's info on the HAM system long ago.

Anyway, thanks for the great replies. Certainly answered my question and added to my ability to play and love the game. The detail in this game, especially 1.13 is amazing.

[Updated on: Sat, 01 September 2018 07:48]

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Re: Zero chance-to-hit on night time interrupts[message #354638 is a reply to message #354631]

Sat, 01 September 2018 12:23

silversurfer

Messages:2798
Registered:May 2009

NV goggles are working just fine together with scopes but at close range there is no use for a scope. That's why I always have another weapon for close range/night time combat on my mercs. Usually that's a small SMG with AP ammo as soon as I can acquire/afford some. Not all scopes allow to switch to iron sights. In fact most don't allow it. That's why I try to get some reflex sights as soon as I can. With them I can sight modes anytime using the "." key.
The close range scope penalty is not the only penalty that applies. A moving target will apply a movement penalty depending on the direction of the movement in relation to your merc. There are penalties for the merc's condition (wounded, tired, drunk, ill, low morale).

In NCTH the indication of your chance to hit is the inner circle. If it is as small as the target you will most likely hit. It has color indication too from red to green (large to small). So don't be surprised if your scope factor is shown in red and the inner circle won't shrink much.

One more thing that has been implemented long ago is the "SCOPE_EFFECTIVENESS". This defines how well a soldier is able to use scopes. The base default is 50% which basically turns your 2x scope bonus for example into a 1x bonus. Not very useful now, is it? You could just use iron sights for the same 1x factor and NOT get the scope penalty for close range applied!
But on top of that 50% comes experience and marksmanship. As soon as this surpasses the 50% barrier your scope bonus grows beyond the 50%. So you see that a bad merc like Flo will not use scopes effectively unless she gains a lot of experience and marksmanship. Rangers, Marksmen and Snipers start at higher values because they have special training.

CTHConstants.ini is a good read to learn more about NCTH and its parameters. Apart from that you need to look at the game code to learn all the formulas.

The scope close range penalty is not displayed in the EDB because it is calculated dynamically for a target. The closer the target the higher the penalty.

I'm not sure what you mean by "background bonuses" of SMGs and rifles. The EDB displays bonuses and penalties of a weapon for it's current sight mode and owner. If you put an SMG in the hands of a "normal" merc with no special traits it will show different bonus/penalty values than on an auto weapons expert. All properties have a mouseover description which should explain what it's for.

Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

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Re: Zero chance-to-hit on night time interrupts[message #354640 is a reply to message #354638]

Sat, 01 September 2018 19:47

ZedJA2

Messages:205
Registered:January 2018

@ silversurfer

Thanks for the additional info. I was not fully aware of the "SCOPE_EFFECTIVENESS" concept and the relation to experience and marksmanship, although I began to read a bit of the old development of the NCTH (thread starts with 2014 posts) mostly led by SevenFM. Lots was being considered.

By "Background" bonuses, I simply meant things like the traits and so on in the Backgrounds -- such as Rangers, Marksmen, and Snipers.

Appreciate the further detail, I'll need to digest all this and get used to using and analyzing it more during play. You explain the rationale well, makes sense. I have been using a backup sidearm as needed, now that I know better how to determine when to use each from this discussion it helps a lot. I choose to allow for no cost inventory moves, since I never truly understood the priorities for the inventory shortcut moves, and it is too easy to make a mistake anyway (in my view) with the LBE mechanics (like understanding that a silenced pistol doesn't fit in certain holsters, and all that).

Thanks again.

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