Home » PLAYER'S HQ 1.13 » v1.13 General Gameplay Talk » The Problem with Spawning at the Edge of the Map
| The Problem with Spawning at the Edge of the Map[message #355417]
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Wed, 24 October 2018 04:03 
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 bouchacha |
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Messages:24
Registered:October 2013
Location: District of Columbia |
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This has been a long-standing point of annoyance with the game. Whenever enemies enter a sector, they spawn at the edge and have full AP. A common scenario as to why this is infuriating happens quite often like this:
1. Mercs just took over a sector
2. Mercs are not heavily wounded and are reasonably awake so they start travelling to another sector
3. For whatever reason, that's not a good idea anymore so travel is cancelled
4. Mercs start doctoring, repairing, training, etc
5. A few hours later, enemies invade the sector from the same direction my mercs were previously travelling to
You can imagine how the fight starts: a line of enemies literally right next to my squad of mercs huddled together in a group.
I recognize that this was part of original JA2 but it does not make it any less frustrating. There are few things more immersion breaking than have 20 dudes literally teleport 3 feet behind you. There are ways to work around this but they're incredibly tedious. The 'easiest' method would be to load the sector each time you plan on parking somewhere and have your mercs run into the middle of the map. It works but it's not ideal.
A much better solution would be something like this: If engaging in a sector defense fight, the game loads the tactical placement screen except now you have almost the entire map to set a placement. The map also indicates the direction of enemy attack. It would look something like this:
Instead of placing your mercs manually each time you anticipate a potential attack, you only do so when an attack actually happens. Moreover, you place by teleportation instead of watching them jog all over the map. It seems perfectly reasonable that when entering a sector (especially one prone to attack) that your mercs would automatically take up defensive positions instead of stand awkwardly in a group in the middle of the road at the edge of town. So from both realism perspective and a QoL perspective, this suggestion seems to pass. I have no idea how difficult it would be to code, but it seems doable since it's just piggy-backing off of existing interfaces.
Thoughts?
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Private 1st Class
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| Re: The Problem with Spawning at the Edge of the Map[message #355423 is a reply to message #355417]
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Wed, 24 October 2018 10:22 
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| ZedJA2 |
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Messages:202
Registered:January 2018 |
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I had replied to this, but the server went down so I won't be as long.
I have mixed feelings towards your suggestion. I'll explain.
1) I like having options and your proposal is on the surface reasonable.
2) There are such settings to have no AP for Enemy Reinforcements and Militia in the INI. I do make use of those, since I find battle at the map edge a bit wonky, and I always make the militia have no AP to balance the reinforcements having no AP (enemy reinforcements can come from several adjacent sectors, and that's plenty balancing enough for low-tier mercs).
3) I think that the point of militia is to act as the eyes and ears for this sort of situation. Even if they just groan from being hit, that is intel. I always set the options so that I see what the militia sees, as I like to presume we can communicate by hand signals, friendly civilians, radio, whatever. I usually will also allow the sectors passed thru to show ? patrols since I consider this info given by the resistance civilians to us.
4) I already position my mercs BEFORE I TASK OUT THE CHORES, placing the mercs usually 2 tiles from the edge of roofs, just one tile to the side of a window, behind buildings, and so on. You occupy the town for a reason. That key reason is to secure it and add to your safety to do tasks. Job 1 therefore is placement.
5) Any Merc with the Scouting trait, will be able WHILE ON DUTY STATUS, to see any adjacent sector's enemies and displays such on the Strategic Map. This combined with number 3 and 4, should be sufficient to make you capable of handling any enemy attacks.
6) Other than that I do think you are right and attacks by enemies cannot be forced to have no AP when entering a sector (it will effect Reinforcement, and there is a setting for such in the INI). However, if you set them to have no AP, and like many have long range weapons, you will have a huge advantage and defense is already a huge advantage in JA2, in my view.
Since I believe that the Militia and Merc Positioning can be done to already negate the majority of this enemy surprise attack advantage, I'm not one to say your suggestion is required. I like having options though, but I think it would make the game too easy.
I play with low tier Mercs and use Militia as support, early warning forces for recon (I set the option in the INI to see whatever my Militia see), and I think the current situation makes Scouting Trait more useful. With your suggestion, I think those become devalued. In one campaign example, mere Flo armed with a .38 Special and a back-up Makarov in the initial defense of Drassen, was able to hold off and take down 4 attackers as they entered the door to the building she was holding ( I had expected them to come in there). At the time shotguns were poor at range (wow with the first Ranger level 1 ranger skill, THAT has changed, I actually hit for the first time something at beyond 7 tiles with a shotgun in 8589). But one of my shotgun mercs maneuvered behind them to save Flo as she was hurt and ran out of ammo in her two weapons (at 38-41 Marksmanship from start to end of battle, allowing her to pick up another Makarov and continue her "education". For this reason, I have to say it can be very exciting as it is, and I love positioning before Tasking Out.
Put another way, the only real advantage of attack for the A.I. is that first turn when we don't know where they are. From then on, everything the player has done in placement, fortification, mining, sandbagging, Radio Operators, and Militia kicks in strongly for the player. The most exciting thing about being attacked is where and how well their first turn goes for the enemy. Without this excitement, I don't know that I'd have as much fun or find using militia as enjoyable. I like that some of my militia can die, some of them put on a great show, and these attacks provide the opportunity for that. If enemy have no AP at start, I think they are fish in a barrel, especially late in the game.
Still a worthy suggestion and deserving of some discussion. Just thought I'd start it off.
<Ooops I see that in the process SilverSurfer has already started it off and basically suggested what I independently had come up with>
[Updated on: Wed, 24 October 2018 10:40] Report message to a moderator
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Sergeant 1st Class
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| Re: The Problem with Spawning at the Edge of the Map[message #355425 is a reply to message #355423]
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Wed, 24 October 2018 13:11
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| townltu |
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Messages:384
Registered:December 2017
Location: here |
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I think that the option to place mercs on the map also if we defend a sector makes sense in specific case:
During battle in sector A of town X, we realize an imminent attack on sextor B of town Y,
but cant place mercs who arrive within time from other town Y sectors
as the game can not load sector B while a battle is running in A.
It would be also nice to have an AP % value for arriving reinforcements, instead of full or zero option.
p.s.
while i dont use the ?, my squads usually have a scout,
and i frequently use the "cancel movement" workaround to teleport people to safe map borders,
but you really dont want to e.g. stand out in the open of Grumm mine for the counterattack from 3 sides.
[Updated on: Wed, 24 October 2018 13:19] Report message to a moderator
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Master Sergeant
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| Re: The Problem with Spawning at the Edge of the Map[message #355444 is a reply to message #355437]
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Thu, 25 October 2018 04:31
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| ZedJA2 |
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Messages:202
Registered:January 2018 |
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That's a fair point, Crackwise, I have seen that happen quite a few times over the years, where enemies are right next to where you can place your friendly attackers.
But then, we could pretend that they have a very aggressive commander or were preparing to enter our own sector just prior to our attack. In other words, the A.I. is getting smart or more realistic.
It also makes enemies with short ranged weapons a definite threat or immediate cannon fodder, depending on how it goes.
Although I'd also lean towards trying to correct that issue, at first, the simplest solution is to use Militia again, making Militia very valuable. This combined with the Radio Operators, Scouts, and New Strategic Movement, makes them invaluable, as you will get to see the enemy placement in the battle (it you don't auto-resolve it), your militia will likely take out the ones on the edge at least or damage them, and they will be available as support if your Mercs likewise assault the sector while the Militia are there or en route.
I believe once the Militia are en route, if you are likewise en route before they arrive, you will be given an opportunity to synchronize your attacks, making it also easier to avoid being the target.
My point is, and I'm pretty sure others will mention this, the value of some other features will be diminished by over-riding current other features, and although this might seem a good idea, almost everything is designed with the current features in mind. Just we have to use these features, if we don't, we pay. So I dunno. As an option fine, but forced re-positioning might actually lead to a weakened A.I. in result, if not in brains.
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Sergeant 1st Class
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| Re: The Problem with Spawning at the Edge of the Map[message #355449 is a reply to message #355430]
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Thu, 25 October 2018 23:29
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| bouchacha |
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Messages:24
Registered:October 2013
Location: District of Columbia |
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silversurfer wrote on Wed, 24 October 2018 07:21The game shows the player that enemy troops are coming so if the player doesn't react it is his fault, isn't it? I don't think we should invest time in coding a worse method of placing mercs on the map as there is a better method already available.
Well no, the game shows that enemy troops are near but it doesn't showcase direction. They could move from the adjacent sector to yours, or go to another and enter from another side. The basis of my suggestion is that it is tedious micromanagement to cancel my mercs assignments, have them jog to an optimal defensive position, then re-assign. If enemy position shifts again, the mercs have to again jog across the map to where they're needed. It's annoying to do and I found my response instead is to instead train militia ASAP and then let them auto-resolve it whenever enemies attack.
A corollary to this suggestion is to eliminate energy drain in non-hostile sectors so that your mercs can run infinitely everywhere. There is no interesting gameplay element to running and pausing when there is literally no danger, especially since you can regain energy by just staring at the screen long enough. If a game replenishes a resources by just staring at the screen with nothing at stake, good game design warrants skipping that waiting period.
sevenfm wrote on Wed, 24 October 2018 16:46Why not just put mercs arriving in peaceful sector at the center spot instead of the edge? It would solve most of the problems - they will not be attacked immediately and they will have some time to take positions before enemy gets closer.
I thought of the same solution at first but then realized (as silversurfer said) you're not always allowed access over an entire sector.
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Private 1st Class
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| Re: The Problem with Spawning at the Edge of the Map[message #355453 is a reply to message #355452]
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Fri, 26 October 2018 03:29
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| ZedJA2 |
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Messages:202
Registered:January 2018 |
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Well, I can see there is a different philosophy at work here or interpretation of gameplay.
Mercs spawning at the middle of a sector, were at one time what you expected vehicles that could not move on the tactical maps to do, or a drop from a helicopter to do. But how otherwise do you justify safely getting to the middle of a sector, aren't you just ignoring the map creator's screening forces? I mean the current expectation is you have to enter from a map side, so weren't they designed to resist such edge based entries? So now the map spawn points need to be totally redone.
Also, energy drain is an aspect of the game you are supposed to have to deal with tactically. And it isn't hard to do, nor does it require staring at the screen as time goes by. USE CANTEENS -- place it over the merc's body figure in the inventory, click, and presto-whammo you have more stamina. They did not even make it hard to refill the canteen, and a canteen contains more than 1 drink in it. I just tried it today to make sure and immerse myself more into the reason for gear. To refill a canteen, you are going to have to use one of the obscure menus, probably the $ menu, but hey, it is just one more thing to learn that has other useful functions on it.
Now, if you just see this as makework, and you auto-resolve all militia battles, no wonder you are bored and not seeing the point of most of the features. If you then spawn in the middle of maps, what is the point of any helicopters via resources down the road? What is even the point of having Radios and Strategic Movement or Militia at all?
Again, if enemies are about to get ready to attack your sector while you were attacking them, they might be gathered on the edge of the map, whether it is the edge of the destination or origin sector, just like in real life, such things may be opportune or inopportune.
Are we saying that the A.I. is too hard because it can use the whole map, just like we can, and we find that is unfair? Whew, I dunno. This one goes into the whateversville basket. I can see making these changes if we are willing to correct all the maps and change spawn points, and unite the new features. But what a lot of work for very little gain. Why not then just use Covert Ops and see if they are on the map edge first, to guarantee every invasion of an enemy sector is pure victory, could be done right now.
[Updated on: Fri, 26 October 2018 03:33] Report message to a moderator
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Sergeant 1st Class
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| Re: The Problem with Spawning at the Edge of the Map[message #355455 is a reply to message #355449]
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Fri, 26 October 2018 10:15
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| silversurfer |
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Messages:2793
Registered:May 2009 |
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bouchacha wrote on Thu, 25 October 2018 22:29
Well no, the game shows that enemy troops are near but it doesn't showcase direction. They could move from the adjacent sector to yours, or go to another and enter from another side. The basis of my suggestion is that it is tedious micromanagement to cancel my mercs assignments, have them jog to an optimal defensive position, then re-assign. If enemy position shifts again, the mercs have to again jog across the map to where they're needed. It's annoying to do and I found my response instead is to instead train militia ASAP and then let them auto-resolve it whenever enemies attack.
A corollary to this suggestion is to eliminate energy drain in non-hostile sectors so that your mercs can run infinitely everywhere. There is no interesting gameplay element to running and pausing when there is literally no danger, especially since you can regain energy by just staring at the screen long enough. If a game replenishes a resources by just staring at the screen with nothing at stake, good game design warrants skipping that waiting period.
If enemy troops are near you should always assume that their intent is to attack. They're not just around to enjoy the view. Yes, they could decide to move on. So what? You might as well attack them instead. Only under one condition I would accept your "pre-battle interface" idea. It has to be an optional feature.
Removing energy drain is no option for various reasons, one of them is exploiting stat training.
sevenfm wrote on Thu, 25 October 2018 22:34@bouchacha I'm sure it's technically possible to determine if it's safe to place mercs at central spot.
Technically possible maybe but not advisable. It's a game feature that the player shouldn't be aware of all opposition. If he suddenly finds himself at the map border instead of the map center he knows that there is something off.
Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MODReport message to a moderator
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