Home » PLAYER'S HQ 1.13 » v1.13 General Gameplay Talk » Sight Range with Scopes
Sight Range with Scopes[message #355539] Wed, 31 October 2018 00:21 Go to next message
Stoerte
Messages:4
Registered:November 2014
Location: near Frankfurt Germany
Hi there, I started playing version 7609 with NCTH again after some years and I don't understand how far mercs can see with scopes and binoculars and what influence the scouting skill exactly has. I've done some testing in daylight, brightness 86/100.

without anything: 28 tiles (seems like no penalty, I expected it to be 14 (BASE_SIGHT_RANGE) * 2 * 0.86 = 24).
10x30 binocular: 44 / 56 (scouting)
10x scope: 49 / 60 (scouting)
7x scope: 39 / 50 (scouting)
10x scope on weapon: 49 / 51 (scouting)
7x scope on weapon: 39 / 42 (scouting)

So the maximum distance at which a merc equipped with a sniperrifle (10x scope) can engage an enemy is 49 tiles, because he can't se further? That's not even double the distance as without anything. Am I missing anything?
Why does a Scout have an increased sight range with an unfitted scope compared to a scope fixed on a gun (I know this comes from the Skills_Settings.INI, but it makes no sense)?
What does SIGHT_RANGE_INCREASED_WITH_BINOCULARS = 40 and SIGHT_RANGE_INCREASED_WITH_SCOPES = 10 mean?
Why can mercs see farther with a 10x scope than with a 10x30 binocular?
How is the penalty for close range calculated, I know it's something about SCOPE_RANGE_MULTIPLIER = 0.7, but what exactly?


[Updated on: Wed, 31 October 2018 00:51]

Re: Sight Range with Scopes[message #355541 is a reply to message #355539] Wed, 31 October 2018 11:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2462
Registered:May 2009
If you want to know how something is calculated you best look at the code. Function "CalcNewChanceToHitGun" in "Tactical\Weapons.cpp" does the CtH calculation for NCTH. It uses a number of functions in "Tactical\Items.cpp" to get scope factor, scope range modifiers and so on.

The part where scope penalties come into play is this:
Toggle Spoiler

In modern builds there is a "AIM_TOO_CLOSE_THRESHOLD" parameter in CTHConstants.ini that can be used to lower the normal scope penalty threshold.



Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

Re: Sight Range with Scopes[message #355542 is a reply to message #355539] Wed, 31 October 2018 13:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Stoerte
Messages:4
Registered:November 2014
Location: near Frankfurt Germany
Thanks for your answer, but I don't want to know about NCTH. I'm rather interessted in the effect that scopes, binoculars and the scout skill have on sight range and how I can engage targets on great distances, i.e., 70 tiles, when I can only see like 40 to 50 tiles with weapon mounted scopes.
Re: Sight Range with Scopes[message #355543 is a reply to message #355542] Wed, 31 October 2018 15:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2462
Registered:May 2009
Actually you were asking about NCTH because SCOPE_RANGE_MULTIPLIER only affects NCTH. That's the part that I answered.



Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

Re: Sight Range with Scopes[message #355544 is a reply to message #355543] Wed, 31 October 2018 15:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Stoerte
Messages:4
Registered:November 2014
Location: near Frankfurt Germany
Ok, I wasn't aware of this. I'm sorry, I didn't meant to be rude - english isn't my mothertongue. I'll look up the information you pointed out.
Do you know where I can find any information about my sight_range releated questions in the code, i.e., the factor that scopes have in increasing the sight range?
Re: Sight Range with Scopes[message #355545 is a reply to message #355544] Wed, 31 October 2018 16:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2462
Registered:May 2009
No need to apologize. Many players don't know how exactly each of the game's parameters is used, myself included. big grin
Actually the whole CTHConstants.ini file is about NCTH only.

Regarding your question about which parts of the code handle stuff related to sight range modifiers - I can't tell you offhand. What I always do when I want to find stuff like that is to take the game option - let's take "SIGHT_RANGE_INCREASED_WITH_BINOCULARS" for example - and then search the code. First stop is "GameSettings.cpp" which shows that the option value is stored in the variable "gSkillTraitValues.usSCSightRangebonusWithBinoculars". Then I search the code for that and find it in "Items.cpp". Ok, the code there doesn't exactly show how this bonus is used but it's in function "GetTotalVisionRangeBonus" so I check where this is called and find this formula which shows that it's a percentage modifier:
sDistVisible += sDistVisible * GetTotalVisionRangeBonus(pSoldier, bLightLevel) / 100;

So "SIGHT_RANGE_INCREASED_WITH_BINOCULARS = 40" increases sight range with binoculars by 40 percent. The same logic applies to "SIGHT_RANGE_INCREASED_WITH_SCOPES = 10" as we also end up in function "GetTotalVisionRangeBonus" where it is added. Scouts profit more from binoculars than scopes, at least from their trait bonus.

Just like game options you can also search for parameters from Items.xml or other files if you're curious to see what the game does with them.

For example the "<DayVisionRangeBonus>60</DayVisionRangeBonus>" of your "Compact Binoculars" represents 60 percent bonus and therefore allows a sight range of:

28 + 28 * 0.6 = 44
or
28 + 28 * (0.6 + 0.4) = 56 (40 additional percent from scouting)

There are "Quality Binoculars" with "<DayVisionRangeBonus>100</DayVisionRangeBonus>". With those you can get 56 tiles sight range or 67 with scouting.



Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

Re: Sight Range with Scopes[message #355552 is a reply to message #355545] Wed, 31 October 2018 21:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ZedJA2

 
Messages:143
Registered:January 2018
I thought I'd follow up with an even more noobish question. Where do the Binoculars need to be to actually improve site range?

It looks like they have to be in the main hand. But it also seems you have to use either a $ option or something like that, maybe a CTRL-V or whatever. I've never seen the actual bonus, I doubt it is the . options like for changing sighting mode on a gun from burst, to single, to auto, to scoped, etc.

Likewise, I also still don't really know how to exactly use the Focus Skill. I know you have to use some special option again and have the correct Skill or Trait, like Marksman for Rifles or Gunslinger for pistols. I guess the correct weapon type must be in main hand, and I probably have to use then a $ option and look for Focus in that set of options.

Don't want to mess up this thread, but the question is related and this post is already helpful to me.
Re: Sight Range with Scopes[message #355555 is a reply to message #355552] Wed, 31 October 2018 23:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2462
Registered:May 2009
Binoculars need to be in the main hand to provide their bonuses and penalties. You can easily verify this with the END key.



Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

Re: Sight Range with Scopes[message #355557 is a reply to message #355555] Thu, 01 November 2018 01:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ZedJA2

 
Messages:143
Registered:January 2018
That's right the END key, thanks for the info. I'll check it out next time in game.
Re: Sight Range with Scopes[message #355558 is a reply to message #355557] Thu, 01 November 2018 02:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
edmortimer

 
Messages:1119
Registered:January 2015
Location: Home Free
Using the "L" key to look while the binoculars are in the main hand gives me the binocular bonus in Seven's 7609 - and I think it is the same in the current version of 1.13




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Re: Sight Range with Scopes[message #355560 is a reply to message #355558] Thu, 01 November 2018 03:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LatZee

 
Messages:100
Registered:December 2015
edmortimer wrote on Thu, 01 November 2018 01:37
Using the "L" key to look while the binoculars are in the main hand gives me the binocular bonus in Seven's 7609 - and I think it is the same in the current version of 1.13


Having to raise binoculars is specific to Seven's exe, in vanilla 1.13 it's enough to just have them in the main hand big grin
Re: Sight Range with Scopes[message #355561 is a reply to message #355560] Thu, 01 November 2018 09:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2462
Registered:May 2009
LatZee wrote on Thu, 01 November 2018 02:38

Having to raise binoculars is specific to Seven's exe, in vanilla 1.13 it's enough to just have them in the main hand big grin

Is there even an animation for looking through binoculars? If not, using L to "raise" them wouldn't provide any visual feedback which would be kinda bad. If there is an animation it would make sense to also implement this in standard 1.13 to make it consistent with weapons that we have to raise in order to use their sights.



Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

Re: Sight Range with Scopes[message #355567 is a reply to message #355561] Thu, 01 November 2018 20:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LatZee

 
Messages:100
Registered:December 2015
silversurfer wrote on Thu, 01 November 2018 08:49

Is there even an animation for looking through binoculars? If not, using L to "raise" them wouldn't provide any visual feedback which would be kinda bad. If there is an animation it would make sense to also implement this in standard 1.13 to make it consistent with weapons that we have to raise in order to use their sights.


No animation, but if I remember correctly, "raising" binoculars makes a merc into a spotter directly, so that acts like feedback big grin
Re: Sight Range with Scopes[message #355569 is a reply to message #355567] Thu, 01 November 2018 21:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
edmortimer

 
Messages:1119
Registered:January 2015
Location: Home Free
Quote:
No animation, but if I remember correctly, "raising" binoculars makes a merc into a spotter directly, so that acts like feedback big grin



yes, they get a portrait icon like the spotter does.




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Re: Sight Range with Scopes[message #355570 is a reply to message #355569] Thu, 01 November 2018 21:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2462
Registered:May 2009
I guess turning a merc into a spotter by raising the binoculars is a more intuitive way than using the special $ menu. I'll leave that up to Flugente.



Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

Re: Sight Range with Scopes[message #355571 is a reply to message #355569] Thu, 01 November 2018 21:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sevenfm

 
Messages:1731
Registered:December 2012
Location: Soviet Russia
edmortimer wrote on Fri, 02 November 2018 00:03
yes, they get a portrait icon like the spotter does.

Since I cannot use new icons in Ja2+AI project, I use spotter icon for watching.
If someone want to incorporate this change into main trunk, I think adding new portrait icon for indication should work, at least it's better than allow running around with binocs in the hand and having full sight bonus.
In VR I made a new icon for watching mode to distinguish it from spotting:
https://i.imgur.com/qUM5urR.png



7609+fix | 7609+AI (r847) | 7609 unofficial modpack | Win8+ fix | Experimental project | Vengeance:Reloaded | Youtube

"It's already "dog-eat-dog", friend. Not sure what worse a bunch of zombies could do."


Re: Sight Range with Scopes[message #355577 is a reply to message #355571] Thu, 01 November 2018 23:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ZedJA2

 
Messages:143
Registered:January 2018
This sounds like an excellent suggestion to add the Spotter icon, and via raising the Binoculars.

Keep in mind several things:

1) The description of the Binoculars at best simply says either "on your person" or "in inventory", although I don't have the description in front of me at the moment. So that should be updated as well.

2) Feedback to the player on any changed state, is always a good thing. Such as in SevenFM's description of his revised Suppression in his AI mods.

I've been having another issue with the $ menu. It doesn't come up if I try to bring it up, on initial load of Tactical Display of a sector. I have to move first for it to be allowed. I noted some other things like that lately, especially in non-standard 1024x768 mode, this is with the new combined registry hack that I believe SilverSurfer suggested (it may occur with other hacks).

Maybe I should add the DLLs also. Everything looks fine, and works fine, provided I have Vsync Off in my Nvidia settings. With Vsync On, I could not scroll on sector load. I had to click or move first to achieve that. Now with Vsync Off, display is fine, but I can't do a $ command unless I do something first on Tactical Sector load.

[Updated on: Thu, 01 November 2018 23:39]

Re: Sight Range with Scopes[message #355726 is a reply to message #355577] Thu, 08 November 2018 13:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Hawkeye

 
Messages:1864
Registered:October 2005
Location: Australia
Does anyone know why a merc cannot lift/look through binoculars even if they have enough AP to do so? I note on a number of occassions I get the warning 'not enough action points blah blah blah' even when they clearly do have enough. Usually this happens when my AP's are low but still enough to lift.

Which icons are which? I tend to have a delay sometimes when using the binoculars, one as pictured above with the binocs, I take it that is watching, scanning or looking through the binocs, a red eye and then a blue eye, which I take blue is spotted but what is the red? I've been using spotting for a while and it's a great feature, but how does the binocs action differ from the blue eyed one?

And how come Igor's field of view is so wide there? Shouldn't it have more tunnel vision?


Re: Sight Range with Scopes[message #355733 is a reply to message #355726] Thu, 08 November 2018 15:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ZedJA2

 
Messages:143
Registered:January 2018
@ Hawkeye

Perhaps it is related to something I recently mentioned about raised weapon costs with the L key once red numbers show.

I found that after raising the weapon via the L key, that then firing with the weapon deducted 2 more AP than the red numbers showed upon firing. Not sure if that applies to your binoculars situation.

See if it happens if you have 3 more AP than the Raise Binoculars cost in Red APs. I'm guessing that would work, but if you have only 1 more AP than the Raised Weapon Costs shown in L key with Red APs, then it will probably not allow you to raise it. Maybe, dunno, just mentioning it.

I'm just saying that I noticed the costs are borked for L key Raised Weapon and then firing that weapon. There may be more issues with it. SilverSurfer said he would try and look into it soon when he got the chance, although he may have to be reminded or he may be busy.

Whoa, I did not even know about the Blue Eye and Red Eye, you say this is pictured above the binocs, interesting. I'll have to try this out, I've never successfully used it yet. But I believe Ira has some binocs and supposedly I need to use the B key per above in v1.13 without mods. I'll check it out, though I'm getting sleepy, been up all night.
Re: Sight Range with Scopes[message #355745 is a reply to message #355733] Fri, 09 November 2018 03:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Hawkeye

 
Messages:1864
Registered:October 2005
Location: Australia
Quite possibly. I'm using the older 20/25AP system which may not help things, but believe most of the time I have 7AP's (I think it's 5 to lift) but get the not enough points warning.

Flugente's instructions are here are mention the eye icons.

http://thepit.ja-galaxy-forum.com/index.php?t=msg&th=21603&goto=329093&#msg_329093

I wasn't aware Seven had added the binocular icon and currently I'm using spotting in Vengeance: Reloaded, so their may be differences with the later 1.13 features, which I wouldn't mind noting.


Re: Sight Range with Scopes[message #355746 is a reply to message #355561] Fri, 09 November 2018 03:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Hawkeye

 
Messages:1864
Registered:October 2005
Location: Australia
silversurfer wrote on Thu, 01 November 2018 18:49

Is there even an animation for looking through binoculars? If not, using L to "raise" them wouldn't provide any visual feedback which would be kinda bad. If there is an animation it would make sense to also implement this in standard 1.13 to make it consistent with weapons that we have to raise in order to use their sights.


Enemies have that 'shade eyes and scan the distance' animation, which may work, though not sure if the big body and female bodytypes use it, I know the standard one does, but again don't think they do this in crouched or prone stance.


Re: Sight Range with Scopes[message #355747 is a reply to message #355745] Fri, 09 November 2018 08:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sevenfm

 
Messages:1731
Registered:December 2012
Location: Soviet Russia
Hawkeye wrote on Fri, 09 November 2018 06:42
I wasn't aware Seven had added the binocular icon

sevenfm wrote on Tue, 02 February 2016 20:00
Description of some new features in r1108
Changed the way binocs work: instead of instant cheating vision range bonus, they now need to be activated, similar to weapon raising - use look cursor (L or middle mouse button) and left click. New portrait icon will show that merc is 'watching' now.
If merc spends APs or swaps hands, 'watching' status is lost, and you need to activate it again.
http://i.imgur.com/FJr97QB.png

Sevenfm's changes and features

[Updated on: Fri, 09 November 2018 08:58]




7609+fix | 7609+AI (r847) | 7609 unofficial modpack | Win8+ fix | Experimental project | Vengeance:Reloaded | Youtube

"It's already "dog-eat-dog", friend. Not sure what worse a bunch of zombies could do."


Re: Sight Range with Scopes[message #355749 is a reply to message #355747] Fri, 09 November 2018 09:13 Go to previous message
Hawkeye

 
Messages:1864
Registered:October 2005
Location: Australia
Sorry Seven, must've missed that first time around. Have been using it when playing mind you, so all very intuitive. thumbs up


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