Home » MODDING HQ 1.13 » v1.13 Idea Incubation Lab  » Idea on fixing traits for rifles (Rifles, Assault Rifles, Sniper Rifles, LMGs ..)
Idea on fixing traits for rifles[message #358915] Mon, 03 February 2020 04:04 Go to next message
CptMoore

 
Messages:220
Registered:March 2009
Hi there,

Questions/Idea here that I want to check with you guys first before implementing such a thing.

I'm always coming back to JA 1.13 and aimnas over the years, and my #1 problem I have are those gameplay mechanics that are based on weapon categories instead of weapon characteristics.
Rifle, Assault Rifle, Sniper Rifle and LMGs are for me one big group when it comes to gameplay mechanics as they all share similar characteristics
My issue specifically are the trait parts that cover aimlevel, CTH and effective range bonuses.
For example, a DMR assault rifle does not get aimlevel bonuses that are only for sniper rifles or rifles, even if it can shoot semi-auto same as a sniper rifle.

So my planned "fixes" would include the following parts... (my preferred solutions in bold)

Fix POSSIBLE_AIM_CLICK_ADDED_*, AIMING_BONUS_PER_CLICK_* (see Skills_Settings.ini):
- Merge into single POSSIBLE_AIM_CLICK_ADDED and AIMING_BONUS_PER_CLICK that apply to all weapon categories.
- Or remove or set defaults to 0
- Or keep combined Pistol/MP, keep Shotgun, but merge all Rifles+MG.
- Or, if feasible, differentiate by holding posture. Guns that use a stock (non-pistol) and guns that don't (pistol, temporarly folded stocks). Gunslinger would help with aiming without a stock while sniper would help with stock, ranger would get reduced bonuses for both.

Fix *CTH_MODIFIER:
- Merge *CTH_MODIFIER into CTH_MODIFIER.
- Or categorize 1) Pistol/MP 2) Shotgun 3) Rifles+MG, same as with aimlevels.
- Or remove or set defaults to 0
- Or, if feasible, adding a flat CTH bonus to a target at a certain range. Like CTH_MODIFIER_>500M=5% for snipers, CTH_MODIFIER_<50M=10% for gunslingers and ranger for in between. Auto Weapons get CTH for burst and auto fire no matter what range.

Fix EFFECTIVE_RANGE_TO_TARGET_REDUCTION, EFFECTIVE_RANGE_BONUS_*:
- Remove EFFECTIVE_RANGE_BONUS_* bonuses, sniper would be the only magician regarding range as we keep EFFECTIVE_RANGE_TO_TARGET_REDUCTION.
- Or remove all or set defaults to 0
- Or keep as is, as it makes pistol/mp and shotguns more viable gameplay wise

I already know that aimlevels are hardcoded to fall back to fixed base levels based on the category of a gun, instead I would like to change that for NCTH to the range of a gun.

I don't know if there are other category based game mechanics under the hood, but those were the ones that keep nagging me for years.

Please provide feedback to the overall idea and/or specific points.

Greetings,
CptMoore
Re: Idea on fixing traits for rifles[message #358916 is a reply to message #358915] Mon, 03 February 2020 10:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2632
Registered:May 2009
The traits were implemented to show a familiarity with certain weapons. How would someone who is familiar with semi auto rifles suddenly know how to better handle pistols or machine guns?
I could support the idea of extending the sniper aim click bonus to assault rifles but not LMGs. I don't see the requirement however, as snipers are already very powerful.

The CtH bonuses should stay as they are. They represent the shooters knowledge of weapon class specific attributes.

Range bonuses for pistols/shotguns have been implemented to make them more viable so they should stay as they are. The same applies to the sniper bonus to range. They are all "magicians" in their own field of expertise.



Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

Re: Idea on fixing traits for rifles[message #358917 is a reply to message #358916] Mon, 03 February 2020 12:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CptMoore

 
Messages:220
Registered:March 2009
Thx for the feedback, do have objections e.g. around LMGs

As LMGs we have e.g. the MG36, same gun as G36 just with a thicker barrel and worse stats in-game. The Aug HBAR also has worse accuracy than the AR variant and also has higher single shot AP (only slight though). Wouldn't that be enough to say that a sniper can use it and leverage his/her sniper skills, but those skills are wasted compared to using guns with better sniping characteristics? I just want to get rid of that the naming of the weapons category has some influence on the gameplay mechanics. I dont want to make LMGs be equal to snipers.

E.g. if a modder accidentally puts the m24 sniper rifle into the pistol category, while keeping the stats of the rifle, it shouldn't behave differently during combat (right now it would..). That's what I want to achieve, finding some other stats than weapon category to calculate the aiming bonus (e.g. accuracy, range, etc..).
Re: Idea on fixing traits for rifles[message #358919 is a reply to message #358917] Mon, 03 February 2020 14:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2632
Registered:May 2009
LMGs are for suppressing the opposition, not for scoring accurate hits. Have you ever fired an M60 or MG3? They don't even provide proper sights for accurate shooting. Sniper skills aren't of much use with such guns.

If a modder puts weapons in the wrong categories, it's his fault so he should fix that himself. Weapon class and type are the only ways for the game to tell the difference. The game cannot look at the gun and say "Oh, this looks like an MP5A4 so "pistol" category is probably wrong.".



Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

Re: Idea on fixing traits for rifles[message #358920 is a reply to message #358919] Mon, 03 February 2020 15:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CptMoore

 
Messages:220
Registered:March 2009
Quote:
Weapon class and type are the only ways for the game to tell the difference.
That's what is currently wrong and I believe I can fix. If a gun is inherently a worse gun for sniping (e.g. a M60), why do we need to put it additionally into a category that says "not sniper"?
We have accuracy, range, aim levels, optics and so much more already in the game for each gun. What game mechanics does "weapon category" produce that we can't model already with these and other stats? If we still need category, that would be the issue here.

E.g. M60 is flagged HeavyWeapon, while the MG36 is not.. both are LMG though. Since MG36 can be handled similar to a G36, shouldn't it behave similar then also in regards to the user with traits? Handling the M82A2 should benefit from sniper as well as from heavy weapons traits (assuming that would help with actual HeavyWeapon flagged weapons, which it currently doesn't), by using categories as stat we artificially limit where traits could be useful.

By removing weapon category as a pseudo stat, modders would have one chance less to make a gameplay mistake, and players have one less issue in understanding the traits. The weapon category should only be used for a single purpose, determining under which Bobby Rays tab to show the weapon. That is what I also found as quote from 2008 in the code: Quote:
UINT8 ubWeaponType; // exact type (for display purposes)
Re: Idea on fixing traits for rifles[message #358922 is a reply to message #358920] Mon, 03 February 2020 16:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2632
Registered:May 2009
There is nothing wrong with putting weapons into classes. If we'd use your approach then an RPK would suddenly be the snipers preferred choice compared to a Colt M4. How does that make any sense? Nobody would understand anymore why one weapon is useful with trait x but not trait y, which would fit much better according to the description. The classes make it perfectly clear. It's not without reason, weapons are put into classes in the real world. They serve different purposes and the classes reflect that.

Btw. where is the M60 flagged as heavy weapon? It's an LMG in both class and type. The type is not just for Bobby Rays. It's there to tell the player the classification of a weapon in all areas of the game, most importantly the description box.



Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

Re: Idea on fixing traits for rifles[message #358924 is a reply to message #358922] Mon, 03 February 2020 19:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CptMoore

 
Messages:220
Registered:March 2009
I'm basing my ideas on AIMNAS project item values, sorry for the confusion. There "HeavyWeapon" is being used (I assume to force hipfire animations?) and the MGs are given less base nAccuracy than their counterpart assault rifle weapons.

I understand now where your angle comes from regarding weapon classes LMG vs other rifles, as vanilla values are definitely not as balanced for such a change. Especially when looking at OCTH.

Vanilla RPK vs AK-47
ubReadyTime 19 vs 15
ubShotsPer4Turns 12.67 vs 12.85
bAccuracy 5 vs 4
usRange 400 vs 330
APsToReload 24 vs 20
nAccuracy 70 vs 63
ubAimLevels 5 vs 4
Handling 12 vs 11
ubWeight 48 vs 38

In vanilla, except for ready/firing speed, the AK-47 is worse than the RPK.


AIMSNAS RPK vs AK-47
ubReadyTime 15 vs 10
ubShotsPer4Turns 12.7 vs 15.2
bAccuracy 5 vs 4
usRange 840 vs 660
APsToReload 30 vs 28
nAccuracy 69 vs 73
ubAimLevels 5 vs 5
Handling 17 vs 12
ubWeight 48 vs 42

In AIMNAS, only OCTH and range is worse on an AK-47.


AIMNAS Tabuk DMR (same calibre) sniper rifle
ubReadyTime 11
ubShotsPer4Turns 11.5
bAccuracy 6
usRange 760
APsToReload 28
nAccuracy 86
ubAimLevels 8
Handling 16
ubWeight 45

Tabuk DMR wins except for speed.


Considering there are other mods that I never could reach, it probably makes sense to not include LMGs for the sniper traits.
Best would be just make it configurable and allow AIMNAS to decide getting rid of LMGs special status in Skills_Settings.ini .
I could make that for all weaponcategory based traits.
Re: Idea on fixing traits for rifles[message #358927 is a reply to message #358924] Mon, 03 February 2020 23:42 Go to previous message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3744
Registered:July 2009
You do have a point. The classes were all nice and distinct when there were 3 examples for each in Vanilla, they are a muddled mess now when you consider modern weapons families and modern usage. I'm not sure removing them is necessarily a better option than creating some of the transitions however...

And btw, there's indeed a difference between the HeavyWeapon tag (any particularly heavy weapon for animation and some other purpose) and the Heavy Weapon class, which is most things that go boom.



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