Home » PLAYER'S HQ 1.13 » v1.13 Solutions,Tips & Spoilers » Suppression fire! Suppression fire! Suppression fire! (etc.) (I feel suppressed)
icon13.gif  Suppression fire! Suppression fire! Suppression fire! (etc.)[message #361578] Fri, 16 October 2020 17:05 Go to next message
Kurt

 
Messages:335
Registered:March 2004
I don't know where to put this, so I put it here.

Since last time I used it (3356) the enemy/milita AI has changed, some things have been vastly improved, others have gotten worse.
Is there a way to control those, to make them less present and aggravating?

  1. The Hand-to-Hand fanatics. There are always a bunch of Bruce Lees who will run up to the enemy, and start punching/kicking/biting his ankle. Obviously they will get killed instants later by their friends, shooting at the same enemy... If they haven't been already shot by their buddies while running across the whole map to reach some enemy.
    As a result, those are wasted soldiers making absolutely no difference, at best they prevent your sniper from taking out that enemy by standing in front of him. Unlike AI soldiers, you get scolded for shooting your own...
    Ideally there should have been a condition in the code saying that HtH or knife combat only occurs when opportunity allows it, and never if the soldier has to move more than 2-3 tiles to engage: In this case he uses a ranged weapon like everybody else.

    Is there a setting or way to limit the occurrence of Kung-Fu masters?


  2. Suppression fire! Suppression fire! (repeat 24 more times): It's the new big thing with the 8796 AI: Everyone does blindly spray bullets in the enemy's general direction, often from half across the map, yelling "Suppression fire!". And obviously, since the friends are closer to the enemies, he kills more friends than enemies. I once had enemies attack a sector defended by mercs and militia, the baddies killed one militia, the militia killed 6 militia and Dimitri, who got mowed down by a "Suppression fire!".
    Now I find (and have always found, if you check my old posts from 2007-2008 I was already ranting about it) the very JA2 notion of MG fire mainly causing suppression ridiculous: Tell it to the thousands of soldiers mowed down by machine gun fire while assaulting enemy lines in WWI! Why weren't they just suppressed? Anyway, in the settings I toned suppression down to "symbolical", but the AI still keeps spraying bullets (in a 60° cone!) all over the place, causing way more damage than the enemies, and occasionally injuring/killing my own mercs. Often I have the whole left side of my screen covered by yellow lines of "Suppression fire!", top to bottom.
    Ideally soldiers should only spray & pray if there is no friendly soldier in front of them.

    Is there a way to stop, or at least limit this madness?
Re: Suppression fire! Suppression fire! Suppression fire! (etc.)[message #361579 is a reply to message #361578] Fri, 16 October 2020 17:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sevenfm

 
Messages:2317
Registered:December 2012
Location: Russian Federation
1. With ALLOW_TARGET_HEADANDLEG_IFPRONE option enabled, prone soldiers cannot avoid being hit by unintended shot anymore.
2. AI_EXTRA_SUPPRESSION option makes AI to blind shoot more often.
3. AI_SHOOT_UNSEEN option allows AI to shoot at targets nobody sees at the moment, aiming at last known location.
4. AI_SUPPRESS_MIN_MAG_SIZE, AI_SUPPRESS_MIN_AMMO_REMAINING options control which soldiers will use suppression fire, increasing them can make it much more rare.

Because of the design of NCTH system, it's not possible to predict if bullet will hit friend when using autofire, or not, so there will be no adequate AI solution for that.

One radical solution is to allow AI avoid friendly fire completely (this is similar to how it worked in vanilla, where only visible standing soldiers could be hit at all by accident).
Also it's possible to check if whole suppression direction if safe (no friends or they are hiding), and also check adjacent directions. This would greatly reduce casualties but also make suppression fire much more rare.

Also, there's no point in "toning down" suppression, because AI doesn't care about suppression effectiveness settings anyway, so with your changes you just crippled AI by removing one of the most important features in 1.13
The only place where SUPPRESSION_EFFECTIVENESS option is checked is after attack when the game calculates resulting effect of attack.



7609+AI (r1705) | Unofficial modpack | Win8+ fix | Experimental project | Youtube | Trunk (r8908) | 1.13 Starter Docs

Кто в Москве не бывал, красоты не видал.


Re: Suppression fire! Suppression fire! Suppression fire! (etc.)[message #361580 is a reply to message #361579] Fri, 16 October 2020 19:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
edmortimer

 
Messages:1352
Registered:January 2015
Location: Home Free
As Seven said "AI_SUPPRESS_MIN_MAG_SIZE, AI_SUPPRESS_MIN_AMMO_REMAINING options control which soldiers will use suppression fire, increasing them can make it much more rare". Leaving the rest enabled and adjusting these two options should get what you want. I use 30 for both and it works for me.






Re: Suppression fire! Suppression fire! Suppression fire! (etc.)[message #361584 is a reply to message #361579] Fri, 16 October 2020 23:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kurt

 
Messages:335
Registered:March 2004
sevenfm wrote on Fri, 16 October 2020 16:24
1. With ALLOW_TARGET_HEADANDLEG_IFPRONE option enabled, prone soldiers cannot avoid being hit by unintended shot anymore.
No, I disabled this from the start. While I like the idea, there is already way too much friendly fire around. The kill/friendly fire ratio is simply ridiculous (1:4 at best).


sevenfm wrote on Fri, 16 October 2020 16:24
2. AI_EXTRA_SUPPRESSION option makes AI to blind shoot more often.
That one sounds just right and it was on "True"! Thanks!


sevenfm wrote on Fri, 16 October 2020 16:24
3. AI_SHOOT_UNSEEN option allows AI to shoot at targets nobody sees at the moment, aiming at last known location.
Where do I find that one? It's not in the Options, neither in the DifficultySettings.xml.

(But I don't think that's an issue here, it's all about huge battles with dozens of militia and even more enemies. Everyone has spotted everyone.)


sevenfm wrote on Fri, 16 October 2020 16:24
4. AI_SUPPRESS_MIN_MAG_SIZE, AI_SUPPRESS_MIN_AMMO_REMAINING options control which soldiers will use suppression fire, increasing them can make it much more rare.
That one I have difficulties understanding. What does mag size have to do with suppression? suprised
The explanation in the file is not very clear on what those values do, and what you'll get when changing them.

So, if I got this right, if I put them both to 500, only (non-existent) weapons with mag sizes of 500 will be eligible to be used for suppression fire? That could solve my problem radically.


sevenfm wrote on Fri, 16 October 2020 16:24
Because of the design of NCTH system, it's not possible to predict if bullet will hit friend when using autofire, or not, so there will be no adequate AI solution for that.
Well, spraying bullets towards a group of friendlies is a sure indicator that some of them are bound to get hit...


sevenfm wrote on Fri, 16 October 2020 16:24
One radical solution is to allow AI avoid friendly fire completely
What do you mean?


sevenfm wrote on Fri, 16 October 2020 16:24
Also it's possible to check if whole suppression direction if safe (no friends or they are hiding), and also check adjacent directions. This would greatly reduce casualties but also make suppression fire much more rare.
That sounds just perfect. So it is possible after all!


sevenfm wrote on Fri, 16 October 2020 16:24
with your changes you just crippled AI by removing one of the most important features in 1.13
Suppression is one of the most important features of 1.13? suprised
Well, let's agree to disagree. I consider it the most unrealistic and (thus) annoying feature, and am happy to always have been able to tone it down so that if a soldier/merc is fired at more than usual, he will crouch and/or try to get cover. In my case, SUPPRESSION_EFFECTIVENESS = 10.

(I expect my professional soldiers to be at least as resistant as the hastily trained grocers and farmers during WWI who happily assaulted enemy positions despite heavy artillery barrage and machine gun fire. I also expect them to shoot to kill, not to scare. Ammunition doesn't grow on trees...)
Re: Suppression fire! Suppression fire! Suppression fire! (etc.)[message #361585 is a reply to message #361580] Fri, 16 October 2020 23:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kurt

 
Messages:335
Registered:March 2004
edmortimer wrote on Fri, 16 October 2020 18:22
I use 30 for both and it works for me.
My setting defaulted (I didn't touch it) to 30 and 20, and it clearly doesn't work for me...

I'm very confused by the comment in the file.
It states: "Setting the mag size to 0 will mean the AI will try to use suppression on every weapon which is the result you used to get when setting the AI Suppression flag to FALSE."

If I got sevenfm right, setting it to 1000 would get me the equivalent of setting the AI suppression flag to FALSE - Meaning the AI doesn't bother with suppression at all.
Re: Suppression fire! Suppression fire! Suppression fire! (etc.)[message #361586 is a reply to message #361584] Fri, 16 October 2020 23:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sevenfm

 
Messages:2317
Registered:December 2012
Location: Russian Federation
AI_SHOOT_UNSEEN option is in the Ja2_Options.ini file, unless you use some ancient 1.13 version.

AI_SUPPRESS_MIN_MAG_SIZE means AI soldier will only use suppression fire when he has at least this size magazine on his gun.
AI_SUPPRESS_MIN_AMMO_REMAINING means AI soldier will only use suppression fire if he has at least this number of remaining ammo in his gun.



7609+AI (r1705) | Unofficial modpack | Win8+ fix | Experimental project | Youtube | Trunk (r8908) | 1.13 Starter Docs

Кто в Москве не бывал, красоты не видал.


Re: Suppression fire! Suppression fire! Suppression fire! (etc.)[message #361587 is a reply to message #361586] Fri, 16 October 2020 23:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kurt

 
Messages:335
Registered:March 2004
sevenfm wrote on Fri, 16 October 2020 22:16
AI_SHOOT_UNSEEN option is in the Ja2_Options.ini file, unless you use some ancient 1.13 version.
Define "ancient" - I use 8796, the last SCI from "Depri's v1.13 Builds and Packages".

(Yes, I'm aware there are more recent versions, but I was only made aware yesterday...)


sevenfm wrote on Fri, 16 October 2020 22:16
AI_SUPPRESS_MIN_MAG_SIZE means AI soldier will only use suppression fire when he has at least this size magazine on his gun.
AI_SUPPRESS_MIN_AMMO_REMAINING means AI soldier will only use suppression fire if he has at least this number of remaining ammo in his gun.
Thanks. So putting them both to 0 is not like deactivating suppression; On the contrary, it means the AI will use shotguns and rocket launchers for suppression. Isn't it?
In this case the explanation in the Options file needs fixing.
Re: Suppression fire! Suppression fire! Suppression fire! (etc.)[message #361588 is a reply to message #361587] Fri, 16 October 2020 23:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sevenfm

 
Messages:2317
Registered:December 2012
Location: Russian Federation
Kurt wrote on Sat, 17 October 2020 01:27
I use 8796, the last SCI from "Depri's v1.13 Builds and Packages".
Then I see no point in wasting my time answering questions about outdated version, there were many changes to AI since that, including fixing AI friendly fire check, suppression code and much more.



7609+AI (r1705) | Unofficial modpack | Win8+ fix | Experimental project | Youtube | Trunk (r8908) | 1.13 Starter Docs

Кто в Москве не бывал, красоты не видал.


Re: Suppression fire! Suppression fire! Suppression fire! (etc.)[message #361594 is a reply to message #361588] Sat, 17 October 2020 14:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kurt

 
Messages:335
Registered:March 2004
sevenfm wrote on Fri, 16 October 2020 22:34
Then I see no point in wasting my time answering questions about outdated version
No need to get snappy about it,


sevenfm wrote on Fri, 16 October 2020 22:34
there were many changes to AI since that, including fixing AI friendly fire check, suppression code and much more.
would had sufficed...


BTW, I wouldn't hold it against people to consider 8796 as the latest version: This very forum advertises it right now as "the best and latest JA2 v1.13 build"...

So please get your collective act together before snubbing people who try to help.
Re: Suppression fire! Suppression fire! Suppression fire! (etc.)[message #361599 is a reply to message #361587] Sat, 17 October 2020 20:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kitty

 
Messages:230
Registered:October 2017
Location: Germany
Kurt wrote on Fri, 16 October 2020 23:27

(Yes, I'm aware there are more recent versions, but I was only made aware yesterday...)

Nope. In your thread Newest version to date (2020)?, where you asked:

Kurt wrote on Tue, 01 September 2020 19:24
Hi everybody, I'm back after 10 years of absence (although I've kept playing JA2 1.13, about once a year). ... Would somebody be so kind to tell me where can I find the latest/best JA2 1.13 version out there? ...

you where allready provided with links to Starter Documentation, 7609, SVN, Discord and the link to most recent JA2-SCI (Jenkins Server by maeyanie) . On the very day you asked.




I need more details. (Didi Hallervorden)

Latest JA2 v1.13 (SCI-maeyanie) Compiling Guide 7609 (eng) MapEditor+UB 8908
Re: Suppression fire! Suppression fire! Suppression fire! (etc.)[message #361605 is a reply to message #361599] Sun, 18 October 2020 17:49 Go to previous message
Kurt

 
Messages:335
Registered:March 2004
Kitty wrote on Sat, 17 October 2020 19:57
you where allready provided with links to Starter Documentation, 7609, SVN, Discord and the link to most recent JA2-SCI (Jenkins Server by maeyanie) .
Sure, sevenfm mentioned those, but classified them as "development builds". For me a "development build" is a untrustworthy WIP compilation devs use to test stuff. Terminology, I guess, plus tower of Babel syndrome...

Anyway, as you see in that thread, I never guessed those were actually to be considered the more recent versions of the official SCIs. It didn't ever cross my mind.

After all, I created that thread specifically because I had realized this wasn't easy as clicking on "Downloads" and choosing "Latest Stable Version".
So, I was sent to the "/aimnas/1.13_starter_documentation" page, which at that time pointed to a repository which had 8796 as the latest version, and that's how I happened to choose that one.

Why else do you think I chose that one over some other?
My thread was titled "Newest version to date", that's pretty indicative of my intentions I think... happy


Anyway, it's useless and counterproductive to point fingers.
I'm thankful to sevenfm for his time and all his help, even if I'm slightly annoyed all the work I did on 8796 will have to be redone. But I'll survive. Shit happens.

One thing I insist about though: To prevent other people like me to have to cross the JA2-1.13 jungle machete in hand, you people need to set up a way for people to download the latest "general public" version without having to jump through hoops or make a crash course in programming. JA2-1.13 needs fresh new players, don't you all want your hard work to be appreciated?
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