Home » MODDING HQ 1.13 » v1.13 Modding, Customising, Editing » v1.13 INI Customisation and Help » Morale_Settings.ini - Strange setting? (Either morale drops, or it drops)
icon5.gif  Morale_Settings.ini - Strange setting?[message #361753] Tue, 03 November 2020 22:04 Go to next message
Kurt

 
Messages:411
Registered:March 2004
While going through the settings I noticed those lines in Morale_Settings.ini (in 8915/2579, but also in 8796 SCI):

; modifiers to morale gain depending on merc character (only if new trait system is on)
; note: can't change a positive event into negative and negative event into a positive one!

MORALE_MODIFIER_SOCIABLE_ONE_MERC_NEARBY = -2
MORALE_MODIFIER_SOCIABLE_NO_MERCS_NEARBY = -5

Shouldn't SOCIABLE_ONE_MERC_NEARBY be a positive number?
Shouldn't the sociable merc be reassured by the presence of someone nearby? Instead of get depressed?
Or did I misread the whole concept?

[Updated on: Tue, 03 November 2020 22:05]

Re: Morale_Settings.ini - Strange setting?[message #361754 is a reply to message #361753] Tue, 03 November 2020 22:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2766
Registered:May 2009
Those are penalties for not having enough (sociable) or too many people (loner) around. The values are correct. If there is more than one person around, the sociable character will get no penalty. If there is nobody around the loner will get no penalty.



Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

Re: Morale_Settings.ini - Strange setting?[message #361761 is a reply to message #361754] Wed, 04 November 2020 16:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kurt

 
Messages:411
Registered:March 2004
silversurfer wrote on Tue, 03 November 2020 21:28
If there is more than one person around, the sociable character will get no penalty.
Heavens, that is a terrible handicap! So a "sociable" character will get depressive if (s)he isn't in the middle of a crowd?...

That makes "sociable" characters unusable for all intents and purposes in the game. After all this is not a Napoleonic wars simulation with troops marching in close ranks, my mercs always spread out. I can manage to give the sociable ones a partner, but I can't afford to give them a retinue, at least untill you increase MAX_NUMBER_PLAYER_MERCS to >32.

I personally think a sociable character should only get depressed if all alone.
After all, if he has somebody around, he has somebody to talk to. I really don't see what having two chaperons would improve (possibility to play cards?...).

[Updated on: Wed, 04 November 2020 16:06]

Re: Morale_Settings.ini - Strange setting?[message #361766 is a reply to message #361761] Wed, 04 November 2020 18:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
edmortimer

 
Messages:1364
Registered:January 2015
Location: Home Free
Quote:
Heavens, that is a terrible handicap!
Actually, the "secret" on why nobody can make another Jagged Alliance is that they forgot that the characters are not supposed to be super-Rambos, or even trained mercenaries. Every character has a flaw - a real flaw (at least until some got nerfed) - that makes them different from every other character in every other game. Wh6y? Because the original designers knew nothing about guns, mercenaries, tactics, or anything military. They created stereotypical gun-nut characters with all the comical flaws such characters have. They never anticipated, and nobody thinks of it now, that actual gun-nuts and gun-nut wannabes will love the stereotypes . . . warts and all.

Edit: Besides, it's not supposed to be easy to put together a team, or to keep it together. That's part of the game strategy.

[Updated on: Wed, 04 November 2020 18:41]






Re: Morale_Settings.ini - Strange setting?[message #361768 is a reply to message #361766] Thu, 05 November 2020 15:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kurt

 
Messages:411
Registered:March 2004
edmortimer wrote on Wed, 04 November 2020 17:37
the characters are not supposed to be super-Rambos, or even trained mercenaries.
While I can understand and even accept the idea, I'm a stickler for logic: I would accept this if I had hired them in a bar or some backwater gun show, but not if they advertise themselves as more or less seasoned mercenaries and/or army vets, and claim high salaries.
There is a strong contradiction here, it's not logical, and that bothers me. speechless


edmortimer wrote on Wed, 04 November 2020 17:37
Every character has a flaw - a real flaw (at least until some got nerfed) - that makes them different from every other character in every other game.
There is quite a difference between having flaws and being unfit for the task.
Example, I can live with Buzz's craziness, it even amuses me sometimes. She's a good, efficient element, and her crazy fits don't create too much trouble. On the other hand I definitely can't live with a merc who acts day & night like a spoiled teenage girl and constantly throws tantrums because he doesn't like this or that.
This is a tactical combat game, not a reality show simulation! cheeky

Fortunately I can bring everything back to (what I consider) normal by editing the config files. So there are still strong dislikes, and you still can't put some people together, but it doesn't feel like a reality show anymore, and I'm not tempted to shoot my own mercs anymore...


edmortimer wrote on Wed, 04 November 2020 17:37
it's not supposed to be easy to put together a team, or to keep it together. That's part of the game strategy.
I think it has been exaggerated a little too much over time.
Too much for my own taste anyway (but fortunately I can tone it down).

My yardstick is the original game. You had flawed characters, you had some merc combinations to avoid at all costs, but all in all it was about combining their individual strengths, not about being annoyed by their collective weaknesses.

I agree this is a personal taste issue, and different people will have different opinions on the subject.
Because of that, I would suggest to dial everything down, especially the new, additional morale interactions, and leave it to each player to increase/decrease them to taste.
You can even distribute ready-made configuration sets: "Highly professional", "Vanilla JA2", "Unruly Bunch", "Herding Cats"! big grin

Never forget, the fact (general) you like something, doesn't mean anybody else will, and the huge strength of JA2-1.13 is that it is a blank canvas everybody can paint his very own ideal game upon...
Please guys, don't lose that!


Long story short, for me it will be MORALE_MODIFIER_SOCIABLE_ONE_MERC_NEARBY = 0.
I would had made it 1 (merc happy he's not alone), which seems more logical to me, but according to how you said it works I guess he would lose that bonus if more than one person is nearby, which would be silly.
Re: Morale_Settings.ini - Strange setting?[message #361770 is a reply to message #361768] Thu, 05 November 2020 15:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
edmortimer

 
Messages:1364
Registered:January 2015
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Quote:
My yardstick is the original game. You had flawed characters, you had some merc combinations to avoid at all costs, but all in all it was about combining their individual strengths, not about being annoyed by their collective weaknesses.
It's the old MinMax vs Role Play debate. There are many more mercs in the game that have no business being mercs than the very few mercs that fit the description of being professional soldiers. Be that as it may, you are free to mod the game however you like to be whatever you like, as we all are. The original game was a fantasy roleplay walkabout with guns.





Re: Morale_Settings.ini - Strange setting?[message #361772 is a reply to message #361770] Fri, 06 November 2020 16:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kurt

 
Messages:411
Registered:March 2004
edmortimer wrote on Thu, 05 November 2020 14:31
a fantasy roleplay walkabout with guns.
ROFL Now that's a cute description! Love it!

I've always thought of JAx as tactical strategy games with roleplay features. As in, the main goal is tactical combat, and to liven it up they added some very colorful characters, so you could either pony up and get the professionals, or try to slug your way through Arulco with the cheap misfits, hoping to eventually train them enough to be up to the task.


But the "scrape a living and make do" mode has its limits, especially after the 600th playthrough... I've changed my game completely: Deidranna's soldiers don't sport silly peashooters which can't hit the broad side of a barn at more than a couple tiles, they carry perfectly working ARs, sniper rifles and heavy weapons, and they outnumber you vastly. You get a different kind of kick when you know the redshirts ahead are most certainly carrying a mortar and some RPGs, not to mention heavy anti-material sniper rifles ranging over half the map and killing with a single bullet...

I don't say that's what the game should be, just explaining what I'm going for in mine.
For now.

I'll definitely also try a Zombie Invasion (primitive zombie flick weapons, zombies only killable by headshot), and a Covert Operations playthrough with only 2-3 covert spies relying on sabotage and infiltration, most likely starting by assassinating Deidranna in her palace.

Re: Morale_Settings.ini - Strange setting?[message #361773 is a reply to message #361772] Fri, 06 November 2020 17:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
edmortimer

 
Messages:1364
Registered:January 2015
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The bottom line is we all want it our own way. You say you want more of the original play, but then you throw out the original concept - one integral to FRP games, you start at 1st level with the worst weapons, fight the 1st level monsters, etc . . . IOW, pistols in the beginning. You and I both dislike that, and we both mod to change it to be more of a real-life mercenary war. Others mod it for same or different reasons. 1.13 is a mod, and the designers of 1.13 (which I am not one) can go whichever way they choose, and probably aren't very much interested in what anyone trashing their view of the game play has to say. I could be wrong. Maybe they like it.

You should read more interviews with the original designers.





Re: Morale_Settings.ini - Strange setting?[message #361775 is a reply to message #361773] Fri, 06 November 2020 17:49 Go to previous message
Kurt

 
Messages:411
Registered:March 2004
edmortimer wrote on Fri, 06 November 2020 16:07
You say you want more of the original play
No, no, I just advocate a more neutral base game.

Don't get me wrong, I think the new morale settings are great to have, they're just not yet streamlined.
For instance, where is the SEE_ZOMBIES_MORALE_DROP setting I'd like to see?... big grin
With stages, from "1 zombie" = nothing, to "more zombies than us" = panic?
That, IMHO of course, would be more important than implementing petty dislikes and jealousies. Where is the "alone in the woods with a bloodcat = scared shitless" setting? There is one for the bugs, but only for the insectophobes, and I'm pretty sure everybody would feel queasy when facing half a dozen of those, and get a small morale boost when they kill one. And so on.


edmortimer wrote on Fri, 06 November 2020 16:07
you start at 1st level with the worst weapons, fight the 1st level monsters, etc . . .
You're right, but don't forget we've been playing this game (at least me) since the initial release. I (me) do not need the slow tutorial levels anymore, so please let me start directly at level 5, with the level 5 monsters.
Obviously I'm talking about myself, and I don't expect others to do the same. Just explaining.


edmortimer wrote on Fri, 06 November 2020 16:07
the designers of 1.13 (which I am not one) can go whichever way they choose
Still, the fact we're still playing it decades later is due to the fact they remained true to the original spirit of the game, the spirit which made the JA series a success.
Of course now they can decide to turn JA2-1.13 into a cooking simulator (for instance), but chances are they will be playing it alone.

Note I'm not "trashing" anyone's view. I'm just stating my opinion, as food for thought, because usually creators need external feedback (not just gushing), and have questions like "what do you think, is this better, or that?".
Sorry, the "if you're not with me you're against me" position is silly. We're all grown-ups (even aged), not kindergarten kids.
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