Home » MODDING HQ 1.13 » v1.13 Bug Reports » "Repairable" issues - Just a heads up (Not a code bug, but something to fix nevertheless)
icon1.gif  "Repairable" issues - Just a heads up[message #361728] Sun, 01 November 2020 15:43 Go to next message
Kurt

 
Messages:429
Registered:March 2004
This is not an actual code bug, but still something to look into.
Note I'm talking about 8796 SCI, since as a WinXP user it's the last version I can use.
So, if the issues described thereafter have been fixed since, please disregard and don't bite my head off... happy


There are a lot of inconsistencies with the Damageable/Repairable tags in Items.xml: Many items which in real life are damageable and/or repairable lack those attributes, notably all LBE items, but also a lot of other miscellaneous items (not damageable laptop, not repairable flash suppressor, some not damageable meds (but not all!), and so on).

When you find a discarded LBE item like a vest, it's always damaged but you can't repair it, which is annoying and silly (I know we're living in the "Age of Disposables", but sewing has been invented as early as the Middle Paleolithic!...).
Also, all (new) clothes (for disguises) are for some unfathomable reason "water damageable". My, I didn't know that, and have been washing my clothes with water for years!...

Anyway, you get the idea.

I think whoever maintains that file needs to go through all the items and add/fix Damageable/Repairable/RepairEase/WaterDamages tags as needed, following common sense (water shouldn't damage clothes, but definitely the camera, for instance).
Re: "Repairable" issues - Just a heads up[message #361730 is a reply to message #361728] Sun, 01 November 2020 19:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sevenfm

 
Messages:2434
Registered:December 2012
Location: Russian Federation
Nothing stops you from using XP-compatible exe from my sig, together with actual gamedir.



7609+AI (r1972) | Experimental project | Unofficial Modpack | Youtube | Trunk (r8948) | 1.13 Starter Docs | 1.13 How to get

Искусственный - да, интеллект - нет.


Re: "Repairable" issues - Just a heads up[message #361731 is a reply to message #361730] Sun, 01 November 2020 21:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2798
Registered:May 2009
The tags were set on purpose by Flugente because it's just a waste of time and tool kits to repair things that cannot be damaged anyway, like LBE or other misc items.



Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

Re: "Repairable" issues - Just a heads up[message #361734 is a reply to message #361730] Mon, 02 November 2020 12:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kurt

 
Messages:429
Registered:March 2004
sevenfm wrote on Sun, 01 November 2020 18:01
Nothing stops you from using XP-compatible exe from my sig, together with actual gamedir.
??? Nothing stops me, except that I didn't know it was there...
I usually don't explore everybody's sig links, and if you mean the "Trunk (r8915)" one, it leads me to somewhere where I just see a link named "Ja2_r8915.exe". While that displays what sounds like the right(ish) version, I have no clue what it is, more so since Google Drive doesn't even display a file size (for me at least). It could be anything, like for instance an experimental .exe you made for some specific purpose and shared with a specific person. I usually don't barge into peoples' places and start picking stuff, unless specifically invited to do so...
My point is, don't assume that because you know it, other unrelated people will too. happy


Anyway, Kitty seems to have compiled a full set (I need the full set, including the Map Editor) for XP, so now I can move up. Thanks anyway.

Back to topic.
Re: "Repairable" issues - Just a heads up[message #361735 is a reply to message #361731] Mon, 02 November 2020 13:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kurt

 
Messages:429
Registered:March 2004
silversurfer wrote on Sun, 01 November 2020 20:35
The tags were set on purpose by Flugente because it's just a waste of time and tool kits to repair things that cannot be damaged anyway, like LBE or other misc items.
Sorry, but that was not well thought through:
  1. First of all the game engine damages everything you pick up, and you end up with damaged yet unrepairable stuff. That's how I first noticed the issue, picking up damaged vests I couldn't repair anymore.
  2. Why would LBEs be indestructible? A mortar shell going down close to you is sure to shred your backpack.
  3. The waste of time is IMHO a silly argument in a game where people need to eat and drink... Either it's an arcade game overly simplifying everything not action related, or it's a simulation where every tedious aspect of reality counts as gameplay.
  4. What bothers me is the inconsistency: If my binoculars can get damaged, why would my (way more fragile) laptop resist anything (but a glass of water)? After all we have settings allowing to show the difference between the solidity of a steel crowbar and the fragility of a flimsy plastic electronic device. Use them!
  5. As for the waste of time and tool kits, I always hire Gasket, place him in a central sector with my stockpile, and he spends the whole campaign there, repairing stuff. He never sees any enemy. Between major offensives I bring my combat teams there for a general overhaul of everything they can't repair on the front lines.
  6. Last, coming back to Flugente's clothes, why on earth would water damage them? How do people wash their clothes? For the distant observer I am, that borders the realm of silly...
People, please don't hide or highlight aspects following your personal preferences. Something (general) you find tedious might be interesting for somebody else, the forum is full of cases like that.
While you'll have to overcome the classic "we've always done it like that" inertia, I think consistency and realism can only improve the experience of JA2 1.13.
IMHO, YMMV and all that.
Re: "Repairable" issues - Just a heads up[message #361737 is a reply to message #361735] Mon, 02 November 2020 20:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2798
Registered:May 2009
I don't like the change either. That's for two simple reasons:

1. I like my stuff in prime condition, so I want everything to be repairable.
2. My mercs need options to train their repair skill. Making objects non-repairable removes such options.

The good thing is that everyone can modify those tags to their liking, although I'd prefer them to be set "correctly" by default.



Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

Re: "Repairable" issues - Just a heads up[message #361741 is a reply to message #361737] Tue, 03 November 2020 03:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Hawkeye

 
Messages:2228
Registered:October 2005
Location: Australia
My vote's for correct by default too.

If there are no objections on making these items repairable, could someone make these changes in a newer build?


Re: "Repairable" issues - Just a heads up[message #361742 is a reply to message #361741] Tue, 03 November 2020 04:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kitty

 
Messages:278
Registered:October 2017
Location: Germany
Uh? I don't recal not being able to repair LBE or armor. And isn't there this ini-setting, something like "advanced repair" or the like? Don't remember where in ini.



How to get: latest 1.13, 7609 and more | 7609 SCI (eng) | Compiling+SVN

I need more details. (Didi Hallervorden)
Re: "Repairable" issues - Just a heads up[message #361744 is a reply to message #361742] Tue, 03 November 2020 09:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2798
Registered:May 2009
Kitty wrote on Tue, 03 November 2020 03:45
Uh? I don't recal not being able to repair LBE or armor. And isn't there this ini-setting, something like "advanced repair" or the like? Don't remember where in ini.
It seems you missed something.

Change Log of GameDir 2225:

- As the sole purpose of the flash suppressor, hiding muzzle flashes, is not affected by status, it's status is irrelevant, making repairs useless. It is thus no longer repairable.
- LBE gear status is useless. It is thus no longer repairable. This is not true for the radio set and the diving bottle, which are LBE but have other purpsoes as well.
Even if the status of these items doesn't affect their functionality in game, I still don't like running around in rags. If there are no objections, I could put the old values back in Items.xml.



Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

Re: "Repairable" issues - Just a heads up[message #361747 is a reply to message #361744] Tue, 03 November 2020 17:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kurt

 
Messages:429
Registered:March 2004
silversurfer wrote on Tue, 03 November 2020 08:58
Even if the status of these items doesn't affect their functionality in game, I still don't like running around in rags.
Definitely! thumbs up


Change Log of GameDir 2225:
- As the sole purpose of the flash suppressor, hiding muzzle flashes, is not affected by status, it's status is irrelevant, making repairs useless. It is thus no longer repairable.
- LBE gear status is useless. It is thus no longer repairable. This is not true for the radio set and the diving bottle, which are LBE but have other purpsoes as well.
That is arbitrary and totally pointless! I fail to see the game improvement brought by removing the ability to repair those items. thumbs down

And why on earth is the scuba tank repairable? In real life they're not, if damaged they get immediately discarded.
It might just be a big stupid metal cylinder, but given the pressures involved (200+ bar) you definitely can't tolerate the least weakness (not to mention I really don't see how you might go about repairing one).
Re: "Repairable" issues - Just a heads up[message #361757 is a reply to message #361747] Wed, 04 November 2020 04:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Hawkeye

 
Messages:2228
Registered:October 2005
Location: Australia
So does this mean LBE and Flash suppressors could still work at 0% or anything above 1%? (Do they become junk items if reaching 0%?) In that case it does seem pointless repairing something that will never affect it's performance and with the amount of items needing to be serviced I'd prefer filtering out items that have no bearing on performance.


Re: "Repairable" issues - Just a heads up[message #361758 is a reply to message #361757] Wed, 04 November 2020 10:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2798
Registered:May 2009
Yes, they work at 1% or above. As they can't be damaged, they will not break.

I looked at the changes in 2225 a bit more and one thing I don't understand is the <ShowStatus> tag. From the name I'd say that it's supposed to tell the game if it should show an object's status or not. Well, turns out that this parameter isn't used by the game, so it always shows the status. If it was working, you wouldn't even see if your LBE is at 100% or at 23%. I guess it's time to fix that...

edit: Fixing the <ShowStatus> tag will be a pain in the butt. It isn't set for many items that need it, for example ammo. The default is 0. Currently if I'd make <ShowStatus> work, you wouldn't be able to tell how many bullets your mags have or what the status of your grenades is. Making the default 1 would require to set <ShowStatus> to 0 for all items where you don't want to show the status and this would also violate the rule that not setting a parameter means 0. Therefore I will not make the default 1. This means that all items with <ShowStatus> requirement will have to get it set/updated to 1.

Making <ShowStatus> work will have side effects. I currently see these:

  • the status bar will still be shown but it will be empty
  • when you sell an item, its hidden status will still affect its value

[Updated on: Wed, 04 November 2020 10:49]




Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

Re: "Repairable" issues - Just a heads up[message #361759 is a reply to message #361758] Wed, 04 November 2020 15:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kurt

 
Messages:429
Registered:March 2004
silversurfer wrote on Wed, 04 November 2020 09:06
  • the status bar will still be shown but it will be empty

  • when you sell an item, its hidden status will still affect its value
All this so we don't have to repair our LBEs?... suprised

Really guys, is this such a terrible, soul-crushing chore?...
I definitely don't think this is a hill to die upon. Somebody decided he didn't care about repairing stuff, why doesn't he just edit his own items.xml and paste the relevant tag to everything he deems should be enchanted adamantium +12?
I don't agree with lots of the default settings too, I just change them to fit my need for realism.
Re: "Repairable" issues - Just a heads up[message #361760 is a reply to message #361759] Wed, 04 November 2020 16:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2798
Registered:May 2009
Yeah, I'm reluctant to implement the <ShowStatus> fix, because it drags a whole mess of other things to fix with it. As far as I can tell <ShowStatus> never worked at all. There is no code that uses it, so it looks like some ancient relic that someone wanted to implement, but never did. In my opinion the best solution is to restore the old status, where we could repair our stuff that can be repaired in the real world. Hey, even I can use a sewing kit...



Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

Re: "Repairable" issues - Just a heads up[message #361765 is a reply to message #361760] Wed, 04 November 2020 16:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kurt

 
Messages:429
Registered:March 2004
silversurfer wrote on Wed, 04 November 2020 15:02
Yeah, I'm reluctant to implement the <ShowStatus> fix, because it drags a whole mess of other things to fix with it.
Well, don't. As I said above, the fact somebody doesn't like repairing stuff is really not worth a general sacrifice... happy


silversurfer wrote on Wed, 04 November 2020 15:02
As far as I can tell <ShowStatus> never worked at all.
Clearly, from what you describe.
Somebody tried the same thing, discovered the same problems, and decided it wasn't worth the hassle.

After all it's better when the game displays status bars for everything. The green status bar allows me to see if a slot is full or empty in a glance (color contrast), and a non-existing status bar would be way too similar to an empty one (damaged item alert!).


silversurfer wrote on Wed, 04 November 2020 15:02
In my opinion the best solution is to restore the old status, where we could repair our stuff that can be repaired in the real world. Hey, even I can use a sewing kit...
Agree, for what it's worth (I'm not part of the hallowed 1.13 team, but I'm a player, and I speak for those).
Re: "Repairable" issues - Just a heads up[message #362479 is a reply to message #361765] Sun, 21 February 2021 21:02 Go to previous message
blot-runner
Messages:2
Registered:June 2019
Bumping up the topic - let me join the chorus of players thinking LBE should be damageable and repairable (Tool Kit description even explicitly states it includes a sewing kit!) and clothes should not be damaged by water either.
While we're at it - why melee weapons have WaterDamages set to 1 as well? One could agree they don't benefit from prolonged exposure to water, especially more dated metal blades like sabres or katanas (no idea when infantry started using stainless steel for their knifes, WW2 bayonets get rusty for sure, but AFAIK modern military knives don't). But realistic in-game exposure is measured in minutes at worst and while it might be plausible that complex machinery, like guns, is damaged* even by a short contact with the water, the same cannot be held true for what is essentially a piece of metal with no electronics, precise tolerances or moving parts.
*On second thought, this is not quite correct. You can dip your gun in the water, and it won't IMMEDIATELY damage it - but firing without cleaning it afterwards probably would. So the best course of action seems to be making the water damage to the firearms to actually increase the dirt value - but I can't code it, so I'm not suggesting it.

In fact - for such an easy change a man with free time and functioning Ctrl-C and Ctrl-V on his keyboard should not ask for it to be implemented, he should provide a fix. Attached is the link to Items.xml with:
Toggle Spoiler

Just remove spaces (stupid linking restrictions!)
https: // spaces.hightail. com/space/rthvTcybVL

For now, this is it (there is also a question of bandages damaged by water, but this can be interpreted as them getting dirtier, so it might make sense after all).

The initial file is taken from SVN 20.02.2021 and is actual at least up to revision 2583, unless I messed up. I'm not competent enough with SVN to be able to suggest this commit to the trunk (if it is even possible for an outsider), so, if any developer is browsing this thread and thinks these changes should be there, I'd be glad if you implement it (you can also undo the changes you disagree with, of course). Otherwise - well, anyone thinking their mercs actually know how to wield a needle is welcome to use it in their game.
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