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| SOG 69 mod realistic?[message #76345]
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Thu, 26 December 2002 05:14 
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 JAT |
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Messages:189
Registered:December 2002 |
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If you think so, read this.
After cleaning all Tay Ninh and Iron Triangle sectors, I went to An Loc. Battle on An Loc Base was easy. Then I went to helicopter and my team was teleported to C8 ( Landing Zone X-ray ). Militia and enemy
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Staff Sergeant
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| Re: SOG 69 mod realistic?[message #76347]
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Thu, 26 December 2002 09:24 
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| Sidetrack |
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Messages:42
Registered:November 2002
Location: Chicagoland |
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Hey Dudes,
Having not gotten to An Loc yet (been having to restart every time a new patch comes out!) everything seems to be pretty cool - with one exception, and that is the VC rocket launchers.
If I've ever gotten the chance to interupt a VC with one, I don't know as they don't drop anything, but I doubt I have, and that seems like BullS--t. Granted, we are a SOG team and the government disavows knowledge of our existance - but Colonel Innis "has a lot of work for a SOG team" in the area. So, how come we get the refuse from his soldiers gear, and have to rob a church to get artillary support?
Also, SOG teams are not considered an asset in assualts or defense of a position. Yet, in order for our team to become proficient enough to accomplish our missions, we have to get into firefight after firefight to get up to Rainbow Six standards. Not that I'm complaining about the amount of combat - after all, that's what this game is about! But we should get just as much experience for finding ways to avoid terribly risky situations. Also, if I remember military history correctly, the US tends to - when on the offensive - often overwhelm the enemy. I have heard over and over that we never lost a single battle in Vietnam (but we were squished strategically, mostly because of the political BS). Also, in the initial descriptions of the MOD it spoke of the necessity for SOG members to requisition VC gear at times. Well, if we can't top our M1 carbines and M60's with the crap we find laying around after a battle... Well, where's the beef?
The description above has happened to me at earlier levels, with RPG's galore - especially J15 and the sector with the tank in the Iron Triangle (the furthest I've been after fumbling finding the VC map with the password to move on). The American soldiers, green or veteran, are horrible at staying alive. Granted, part of this has to do with the limitations on the AI, but it also has to do with the fact that they are terribly armed and seem to have a cap of about 7 AP's at healthy. An exageration, no doubt, but a true impression! :whoknows:
The descriptions above have me dreading moving beyond the Triangle.
You know, when it comes to games, though, it is necessary to maintain a balance between what is realistic and what is fun playing. It is always tough for a game designer to keep this "verisilimitude." :animread: n. appearance of truth; pobability; likelyhood. (COULD be real). The starlight scope debate is a prime example of that argument. Perhaps the situation that came up above was a situation of nonpredicted tactical error. When I first went after FB George and they hit it with an airstrike, I just figured I'd have to find another way to get the report - perhaps by finding a survivor or whatever. I tend to save after every mission, over the previous save, as not to create an ability to travel back in time to change the future. Had I known that you COULDN'T complete the quest without getting the file from FB George itself, I continued on for months thinking I could find it another way. My argument was that if a guy created a campaign, why would he make the storyline hinge on something (I didn't know) I couldn't prevent. So perhaps there is a way to avoid getting nailed as in the story above. (Geez, we shouldn't need or want to wear flak vests, groin protectors, etc. in the bush anyway! Talk about heat exhaustion and weight problems when on foot!) I guess I'll find out when I get there, but if nothing else, perhaps my argument and those sure to follow this one will be used by MOD and game developers as suggestions of what and not to do.
In Red Dawn the Wolverines used a stolen RPG to create havoc among the Pinko forces in Colorado. Along with sachel charges and other stuff. Granted it was a movie, but an RPG can really be used to cause a great deal of mischief among those better trained and armed. EVERY freedom fighting or revolutionary force that I've heard of post Vietnam loves 'em. Just as in Black Hawk Down, the Rangers were always on the look out for RPG's...
Happy Christmas all. Nothin' like debating the history of violence over egg nog and cranberry sauce!
Sidetrack
:digit: :rulez:
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Corporal
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| Re: SOG 69 mod realistic?[message #76350]
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Fri, 27 December 2002 01:45
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| Vurt |
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Messages:254
Registered:October 2002
Location: Calgary, Canada |
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All I'm saying is that some of that is probably from the 3 tanks in the sector, not necessarily all. I know I personally get pounded on them from halfway across the map if there's a clear line of fire and a VC spotter for them, especially if all the militia holding their attention are already dead.
Maybe I've just been lucky, I dunno, but at most I tend to get only 1 actual RPG shot per turn aimed at me. That isn't to say I don't agree with you that the VC are frustratingly strong by this point. They are. It usually takes my entire team of 6 all their concentrated firepower to bring one or two down a turn. It's very frustrating when their shots are doing 30, 40 damage and yours are only in the 10 range. But if it wasn't something similar, with what the mod developer had to work with, it wouldn't be much of a challenge, eh?
Cheers and good hunting,
Vurt
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Master Sergeant
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| Re: SOG 69 mod realistic?[message #76351]
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Fri, 27 December 2002 02:29
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| TrooperThorn |
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Messages:61
Registered:November 2002 |
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Certainly not to take anything away from Becoming X for his efforts to provide us with a new mod to play, the game has alot of bugs in it and is very unforgiving if you do not load things properly.
A case in point: While out of town and jonesing badly for my daily JA fix I went out and purchased another copy of JA2 Gold. I downloaded all new items onto an entirely different computer, including the new patch for SOG69. I was able to play for about two days before more bugs began to show up...missing character speech files, etc, etc, etc.
Finally out of total frustration I deleted everything.
From what I have been able to play of SOG69 I liked alot, but just as Sidetrack and JAT opined, there are many things that unbalances the game.
I personally did not have problems with not having starscopes for night ops, probably because I primarily fight all my battles at night.
No my problems came more from the technical side of downloading and applying patches. If someone who is not more than a bit more knowledgable about computers and programming wants to play this game, they will be in for some tough times. I don't blame Snicker for his frustration over getting the game to work. Although it is a great concept and would be extremely enjoyable to play, it needs a major overall and made a bit more user friendly.
That's a lesson future mod designers should consider when developing their mods. It's great to make challenging, interesting mods, but please remember that not all the people who play JA2 are conversant with editors and programming.
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Corporal
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| Re: SOG 69 mod realistic?[message #76352]
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Fri, 27 December 2002 04:15
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| Sidetrack |
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Messages:42
Registered:November 2002
Location: Chicagoland |
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Trooper,
For beginning players, yeah, they might not know the differences between the versions of the game. (Versions being releases, and the designation after patching it.) Most "old" JA2 players have been playing with older copies of the game. Over time, Sirtech/Interplay have upgraded the games, and in the case of JA2 Gold, they combined two games onto one disk (set of disks???). Thus, even there, they had to change the version.
When someone creates and editor, trainer, or other utility for a game - especially people like us who have to hack into the codes to find a way to change the data and variables - we tend to do it using whatever version of JA2 we have with or without the patches we have. I know my favorite editor was only usable on JA2 1.03 and thought there were still a few glitches in that version (as I had bought it) I was willing to put up with them to mess with the values in the game.
Weapon X specifically said that his mod runs on version 1.01 of JA2UB. I've been playing for long enough that I am used to having to patch the games for mods or editors, but you are correct in saying that sometimes people don't know about the versions and such. Sometimes editors take advantage of loopholes in the game design to do their thing as well, so you'll see sometimes that when an official patch from Sir-Tech comes out, they will fix or fill that loophole rendering it ineffective. This is especially true with cheats discovered in the game (say, like throwing knives at crows to increase statistics astronomically).
It will be interesting to see what kind of havoc this issue will play with Urban Chaos which requires an older version of JA2 or UB to install the mod over. You'll be hearing a lot of questions on how to find or patch to an older version.
Peace out and blame Canada,
Sidetrack
:digit: :rulez:
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Corporal
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| Re: SOG 69 mod realistic?[message #76353]
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Fri, 27 December 2002 05:02
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| Dr.Quack |
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Messages:124
Registered:November 2001
Location: old Europe |
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There is only the one update patch for UB - there were rather a lot of bugs on the original release.
As to SOG'69, we really did everything possible to make the install as easy as possible. I don't know what could possibly go wrong there, all the user has to do is start the installer and the patch - everything else is taken care of, there is no need to fiddle with any editors or technical stuff.
Since these *very* strange problems seem to happen only to TrooperThorn, I suspect there's something foul afoot in that computer. This could be anything from viruses to the favorite corrupted windows installation. I think if there was any real problem with the campaign it would have shown up on more systems by now.
BTW FB George doesn't get it by an airstrike, if I'm getting you right there. Look at the map, it's a 'panic switch', one of the very few features in JA2 to build something of a tactical setup. Innis' speech also hints at VC suicide bombers, I think.
On the Starlight Scope, it's possible the mod could become unbalanced, or overly drastic things could happen like getting gunned down in one turn because of the short ranges at night and relatively high damages, any reports on the 'enhanced' nightops would be appreciated. Neither I nor Becoming-X play any nightops so it's well possible the mod isn't so great in this department.
As to the RPG-7, I modeled it after having some rather epic Laser Squad Nemesis matches (sorry for dropping the name yet again). It is inspired by the Marine Grenadier in this game, and they do have even heavier stuff there. I'm really not a big fan of the napalm grenade from JA2-DL1, but LSN taught me how you can use really heavy stuff in a more interesting way. Then the 60 range on the RPG isn't so dramatic, the AIs use it only against mercs they can see, and rarely ever against single mercs. Facing a suspected RPG grenadier somewhere in the bush is just the next level of threat after Molotovs and LMG campers, but healthy mercs should always survive one impact. It's a bit like getting a hit from the Barret applied as area damage, but it's not an unfair behind-the-door ambush situation since the grenadiers are walking around freely in rough terrain.
Obviously this is a pretty drastic way of playing JA2, even a way to explore the limits of the game. Losing a bit is part of the game here, and I even appreciate the drama of seeing my mercs bleed for a change  The original game certainly wasn't that devious. Everybody having played the mod to the final sectors should remember that they're playing JA2 in the hardest way so far, deliberately designed to bring the difficulty to the maximum permitted by the game engine while still maintaining a fair chance to win. Beating the campaign without much reloading is probably equivalent to having mastered the game mechanics, against artifical intelligences that is. Real people in multiplayer games tend to fight much harder
Hmm I think this was going to be two separate posts initially...
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Sergeant
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| Re: SOG 69 mod realistic?[message #76354]
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Fri, 27 December 2002 12:18
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| adamsun |
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Messages:175
Registered:January 2002
Location: MA, USA |
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I played this sector during night.
Mercs attack from the north, militias attack from the east.
The first thing to do is throwing a lot of break lights over the river to expose the enemy positions.
Then in next turn use one artillery request to destroy the two tanks at the central part of the sector.
(The two tanks are parked very close to each other and in bad shape, half health. )
Then mercs start to shoot any visible enemy over the river, with silenced guns and grenade/PGF-7.
This will attract a lot of enemy soldiers and get pressure off from militias.
At the same time, send two mercs south to use break lights to expose enemy over the river and use PGF-7 to destroy other tank(s?).
When all visible enemy solders are killed, militias will not pass the river. This time send mercs cross the river from north-eastern corner and south to clear the rest of enemy.
To me, at least for night operation, it is not very off-balance. It is true that mercs are always out-numbered, but they are not out-gunned, at least not at LZ XRay. They can use artillery and PGF-7 too.
In the dark, visible range is shorter, there are not many trees on the bank of enemy
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Staff Sergeant
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| Re: SOG 69 mod realistic?[message #76355]
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Fri, 27 December 2002 13:34
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| TrooperThorn |
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Messages:61
Registered:November 2002 |
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I may not be all that when it comes to computer programs but I am persistent. I downloaded everything fresh again and this time it appears to working well. I have made it back to Tay Ninh.
The downside is I guess I probably have fought this battle at least a half a dozen times before.
As for the final battle I am of no help...the farthest I got was all the sectors in the Iron Triangle. Sounds like the final battle will be challenging. I am looking forward to it.
Maybe I will be there before UC comes out, otherwise I might very well be the first to never complete SOG69...lol :biglaugh:
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Corporal
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But you can get a launcher for your pleasure somewhere in a crate south-east of An Loc base, thats not too much of a spoiler.