Home » PLAYER'S HQ 1.13 » v1.13 Combat/Weapon Academy » Defending Drassen Mine from mass enemies
Re: Defending Drassen Mine from mass enemies[message #248180] Tue, 30 March 2010 22:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lockie

 
Messages:3968
Registered:February 2006
Location: Scotland
What were you building , a body pile , or just a pile ? Very Happy

Actually , was there a question in your post ??


Re: Defending Drassen Mine from mass enemies[message #248182] Tue, 30 March 2010 22:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
SpaceViking

 
Messages:762
Registered:January 2004
Location: Rochester, Minnesota, USA
Luppolo
oh well, i "dodged" the counter attack by not taking the last sector (airport), now i'll have to face the counter at progress 70

That late in the game it will be very easy. Just use lots of mortars and grenade launchers.


Re: Defending Drassen Mine from mass enemies[message #248184] Tue, 30 March 2010 22:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gorro der GrĂ¼ne

 
Messages:1570
Registered:March 2009
Location: Broadwurschd-City
acc to his picture he has only crapguns
Re: Defending Drassen Mine from mass enemies[message #248186] Tue, 30 March 2010 23:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Logisteric

 
Messages:3474
Registered:December 2008
Location: B
could someone tell gorro that he (gorro) mixes up different guys
Re: Defending Drassen Mine from mass enemies[message #248200] Wed, 31 March 2010 02:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Rednight

 
Messages:103
Registered:April 2004
Location: United States
Mustard Gas is good on night attacks because they can't use their masks and night vision. Once slaughtered 18 enemy soldiers that way with gas, grenades and tear gas. Only used automatic weapons fire at the end.

Motors are a hell of tool though
Re: Defending Drassen Mine from mass enemies[message #248206] Wed, 31 March 2010 04:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Horatio
Messages:8
Registered:March 2010
I usually do a roof top defence and have had close calls. My current game has a night attack; I tried an interior defence in the south-west most house (large house, not the mining office), but the top half of that interior was too well-lit. I've tried my first bar defence, but it's going to be too easy. All my troops have MP5s and the ability to interrupt every soldier that comes through the door. Feels cheap when the army would probably just blow the place apart. I've upped the suppression settings, so a roof-top defence might be well-earned (12 per enemy squad, mostly armed with ARs, and a fair few LMGs and marksmen).
Re: Defending Drassen Mine from mass enemies[message #248213] Wed, 31 March 2010 08:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Logisteric

 
Messages:3474
Registered:December 2008
Location: B
@ rednight

are you talking vanilla? in 1.13 they can

@ horatio

'bar-defence' doesn't work for me - i blow the walls of every shop and possible shop (i hate to open doors all the time) - the bar in the mine sector of drassen is a 'possible shop' for devin and mickey -> no door :devilaugh:
Re: Defending Drassen Mine from mass enemies[message #248224] Wed, 31 March 2010 15:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Horatio
Messages:8
Registered:March 2010
CaRNi4
This is me on the toilet building Smile


I usually do the toilet building, and also man the buildings to the north-east and south-east in that picture (they both cover the flanks of the many enemies that will come from the right). I reloaded after trying the bar defence (too easy, may as well just cheat, and why I haven't tried it until now), and did my usual roof defence. Night, carbines, and 10 mercs just made it too easy though. And of course the advantage of knowing where the attacks will come from and therefore knowing exactly where to position my troops. One did get a scratch though, so it wasn't perfect. I'm a little torn over whether to reload and retreat for a more realistic outcome. But the loot!
Re: Defending Drassen Mine from mass enemies[message #248230] Wed, 31 March 2010 18:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
SpaceViking

 
Messages:762
Registered:January 2004
Location: Rochester, Minnesota, USA
Something I always thought would be a good idea is if the AI can't find you after a bit it starts blowing up buildings. That would take care of the "camping in the back room" problem to some extent.


Re: Defending Drassen Mine from mass enemies[message #248231] Wed, 31 March 2010 18:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Logisteric

 
Messages:3474
Registered:December 2008
Location: B
afaik, you are the one who knows how to do that kind of stuff - if you want 'verbrannte erde', do it

btw, it would help the player to get rid of senseless npcs, like head-miners :pitchfork:
Re: Defending Drassen Mine from mass enemies[message #248232] Wed, 31 March 2010 18:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
SpaceViking

 
Messages:762
Registered:January 2004
Location: Rochester, Minnesota, USA
Logisteric
afaik, you are the one who knows how to do that kind of stuff - if you want 'verbrannte erde', do it

btw, it would help the player to get rid of senseless npcs, like head-miners :pitchfork:


Actually, that would be a good effect. I can imagine the queen's troops getting POed that those pesky mercs are hiding somewhere and so starting to shoot people. You are supposed to be fighting back not cowering in the back room.

My German is really rusty but by "verbrannte erde" did you mean "scorched earth" like when an army withdraws and blows the crap out of everything as they leave?


Re: Defending Drassen Mine from mass enemies[message #248233] Wed, 31 March 2010 18:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Logisteric

 
Messages:3474
Registered:December 2008
Location: B
yep, and as long as you don't play pcm - dead head-miner = no income

would be a great thing to rethink that hide-and-shoot-tactics

edith:

what'ya mean with 'POed'?

[Updated on: Wed, 31 March 2010 18:59] by Moderator

Re: Defending Drassen Mine from mass enemies[message #248236] Wed, 31 March 2010 19:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3767
Registered:July 2009
Or teach them to use flash-bangs... *dream*. But that would also require to have some form of coordination,not like "Hey, 20 guys went into this bar and no one came out. They must have found some booze, I'll gonna check"

But for shooting random people/NPC it would be hard to find the 'right' priority or it would turn into some sort of escort/protect mission which is arguably one of the most annoying quests in any game. Especially when the guy you protect has the bad habit of running into the line of fire like most ja2 civs like to do.


Re: Defending Drassen Mine from mass enemies[message #248237] Wed, 31 March 2010 19:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Logisteric

 
Messages:3474
Registered:December 2008
Location: B
nope, if the enemies goes for npcs after the twelveth turn you have to protect all npcs in that particular secor, that means you either have to have a more aggressive stance or you need more personnel - but the times to defend the toilet would be certainly over.

to protect fred in drassen you need at least four guys - 1 to block the door for fred, and three on the roof to prevent the enemy from opening that door - you'd probably needed to cover fred's window as well.

no fred - no money

edith:

if the ai tried to make 'new doors' it'll be even more fun

[Updated on: Wed, 31 March 2010 19:11] by Moderator

Re: Defending Drassen Mine from mass enemies[message #248242] Wed, 31 March 2010 19:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tao

 
Messages:2225
Registered:August 2009
Location: The Known Universe
DepressivesBrot
Or teach them to use flash-bangs... *dream*. But that would also require to have some form of coordination,not like "Hey, 20 guys went into this bar and no one came out. They must have found some booze, I'll gonna check"


:walking: :rifle:
Yeah....How stupid are these guys!?


Logisteric
nope, if the enemies goes for npcs after the twelveth turn you have to protect all npcs in that particular secor, that means you either have to have a more aggressive stance or you need more personnel - but the times to defend the toilet would be certainly over.

to protect fred in drassen you need at least four guys - 1 to block the door for fred, and three on the roof to prevent the enemy from opening that door - you'd probably needed to cover fred's window as well.

no fred - no money

edith:

if the ai tried to make 'new doors' it'll be even more fun


UHHH....No head miner = no money for Queenie. She is money hungry, I honestly, really, extremely, don't think she would okay murdering head miners.
Re: Defending Drassen Mine from mass enemies[message #248244] Wed, 31 March 2010 19:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Logisteric

 
Messages:3474
Registered:December 2008
Location: B
in a fair world her troops force miners to work with or without fred

=>

no fred: 80% for the queen / 0% for little tao
Re: Defending Drassen Mine from mass enemies[message #248247] Wed, 31 March 2010 19:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tao

 
Messages:2225
Registered:August 2009
Location: The Known Universe
No Fred = Less Efficiency + Less production. That means less money for Queenie.

Question:
How could a grunt do the same job as a general?

Answer:
He can't

Can one of your guys do your job? Especially since you think......
Re: Defending Drassen Mine from mass enemies[message #248249] Wed, 31 March 2010 19:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Logisteric

 
Messages:3474
Registered:December 2008
Location: B
the army just shoots some miners to get the others to work - you are not allowed to do that, you are supossed to be the good guy :devilaugh:
Re: Defending Drassen Mine from mass enemies[message #248252] Wed, 31 March 2010 19:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tao

 
Messages:2225
Registered:August 2009
Location: The Known Universe
Why did you edit your post differently? Do you do that often?
Re: Defending Drassen Mine from mass enemies[message #248256] Wed, 31 March 2010 19:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
SpaceViking

 
Messages:762
Registered:January 2004
Location: Rochester, Minnesota, USA
Logisteric
what'ya mean with 'POed'?


POed means Pissed Off which means Very Upset.


Re: Defending Drassen Mine from mass enemies[message #248258] Wed, 31 March 2010 20:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Logisteric

 
Messages:3474
Registered:December 2008
Location: B
taoteching
Why did you edit your post differently? Do you do that often?


h
Re: Defending Drassen Mine from mass enemies[message #248292] Thu, 01 April 2010 02:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Horatio
Messages:8
Registered:March 2010
Logisteric
nope, if the enemies goes for npcs after the twelveth turn you have to protect all npcs in that particular secor, that means you either have to have a more aggressive stance or you need more personnel - but the times to defend the toilet would be certainly over.


Not really - "Everyone in the bar and stay behind us". Interrupt, kill. Interrupt, kill. Threat against npcs isn't really a solution, since the army would bring the roof down on the bar in any case. An easy solution for the bar defence would be to put a few windows in it.

She certainly doesn't need to kill miners or Fred, as he says that they'll all go back to working for her if necessary. If she does kill him, it would be for punishment, and I don't see the mercs really bothering to save an npc at the risk of being slaughtered by the 100+ surrounding enemies.

Wonder how Drassen would've gone had the enemy used mortars and attacked during the day? I've probably started a couple dozen games, but never played far enough to see mortars in action. Sounds like they can either bring down buildings, or at least suppress whoever is inside them?

[Updated on: Thu, 01 April 2010 02:17] by Moderator

Re: Defending Drassen Mine from mass enemies[message #248296] Thu, 01 April 2010 02:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Logisteric

 
Messages:3474
Registered:December 2008
Location: B
just tested - was no prob, i had 6 on the mining fac, 6 on the bar and 6 on that building to the south-east of the bar - should have had two lmgs on the toilet, though - i got badly flanked right through the middle - nearly lost haywire, grizzly and biff; but i managed to keep them allive.

i don't think cutting windows into the bar is a good idea, 'cause with 12 on the toilet you can get rid of the baddies with nothing more than smgs. it has to be done in a way that forbids those coward-tactics - making it expensive to loose the miners could be one such way.

where is the fun of the attack, when it can be solved in a turkey-shoot?

and btw, the army can't bring down roofs
Re: Defending Drassen Mine from mass enemies[message #248310] Thu, 01 April 2010 05:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Horatio
Messages:8
Registered:March 2010
Windows on the bar would only be to deal with the bar being easily defendable.

I tried the night-time roof top defence again, but raised sight from 13 to 20. Result? Lost 7 of 10 in my team. Worked pretty much how I thought it should have - enemy heavily suppressed my positions, but not without heavy losses. For some reason only 70 or so attacked Drassen. Another 10 and I probably would've lost. I did have 5 LMGs though - counting the 2 Ares Strikes - and I would've been better off swapping those with M4s for the faster draw.

I didn't get many kills in the main channel to the east of the toilet block - most of those enemies moved to the north-east and south-east. I didn't expect that, so it overwhelmed my southern flank and kept me occupied enough for the western enemy force to overwhelm me. I only just held the northern position (building north of the toilets, west of the bar) and had I lost that, I would've lost all of my mercs.

I put the flanking down to the AI being able to maintain a fix on my troops, thanks to the longer sight range. I might be wrong, but my guess is that a sight range greater than effective weapon range allows the AI to prepare before the player opens fire, or at least under less effective fire. The AI doesn't have much of a chance if they only spot the player after they are within the player's effective weapon range.
Re: Defending Drassen Mine from mass enemies[message #248322] Thu, 01 April 2010 10:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Logisteric

 
Messages:3474
Registered:December 2008
Location: B
Horatio
I put the flanking down to the AI being able to maintain a fix on my troops, thanks to the longer sight range. I might be wrong, but my guess is that a sight range greater than effective weapon range allows the AI to prepare before the player opens fire, or at least under less effective fire. The AI doesn't have much of a chance if they only spot the player after they are within the player's effective weapon range.


but that's how it is - when you see someone at night (s)he is in effective weapon's range - that is the reason for navy seals to prefer the mp-5n to the m16a4 ans socom's demand for the m23 hand-canon

you could of course argue that noone wants to sit in a bar (at least i don't) with no windows - no air-cleaning and lots of smokers (and therefor the bar needs windows).
Re: Defending Drassen Mine from mass enemies[message #248335] Thu, 01 April 2010 14:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Horatio
Messages:8
Registered:March 2010
At night yes, and at night sight range is still within effective SMG range. I've tested the greater sight range a little more, and it seems to really benefit the AI. It may not be realistic to have it greater than effective weapon range, but given the small scale environments I think it works well. It's also more tactical - trying to get within effective range without the enemy noticing.
Re: Defending Drassen Mine from mass enemies[message #248545] Mon, 05 April 2010 09:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
BluenosePsycho
Messages:3
Registered:April 2010
Location: Maritimes, Canada
Okay, I'm on my 2nd attempt to play of the newest version of the 1.13 mod (using Kaerer's SCI from 'two threads over')... and I'm still having problems with Drassen.

On my first attempt I was expecting the classic I knew and loved, with all the various updates and changes, and then the huge counterattack snuck up and kicked me in the balls, because the next thing I knew I had killed about 15 mooks and there were 45 left. This time around I was paranoid, even though I had set it to FALSE using the INI Editor, I still find myself up to my ears in redshirts ('only' 56 for the moment, minus 1 killed).

So is there something else I need to turn off too, or perhaps I should try starting over with a fresh install? If I have to start over again can I just copy over a save from before the event, or do I need to start from scratch for a 3rd time?
Re: Defending Drassen Mine from mass enemies[message #248546] Mon, 05 April 2010 10:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lockie

 
Messages:3968
Registered:February 2006
Location: Scotland
The counterattack is worth playing , if only to get a huge sense of achievement when finally you defeat them , Plus it makes you lots of money!
But , a coupla tips ,leave Drassen till you get some better weapons by roaming around for a few days killing any patrols you meet and looting their rotting corpses ,selling what you don't want/need and , invade Drassen at night with a minimum of 6 mercs , and let the 'fun' begin . Tactics , I'm sure you can find out for yourself Razz


Re: Defending Drassen Mine from mass enemies[message #248563] Mon, 05 April 2010 18:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
SpaceViking

 
Messages:762
Registered:January 2004
Location: Rochester, Minnesota, USA
There are all kinds of ways to defeat the big Drassen attack. Here are some general tips:

Hide in a building and shoot them as they come through the door. This is the silly/easy way and you can do it without any militia and even pretty early on in the game.

A more reasonable way is to prepare by taking two of the Drassen sectors (best are the airport and the mine) and then train up as many militia as you can to the best level your .ini allows in those two sectors. Take over the last sector and then shift the militia so that they are all in the mine sector and the middle sector. With your help the militia will be able to easily defeat the counterattack.

Once you have the militia ready set up a couple of your mercs on the roof of the mining building watching to the south and southwest and the rest on one of the buildings toward the east side of the map that has good views to the east and to the southwest. Have the mercs lay down and check their fields of fire before the battle starts. You'll probably want to be a square or two back from the edge of the building.

When the attack starts just fire away! There will be swarms of soldiers at first. Bring lots of ammo and use longer range weapons. It is actually better to wound a lot of the enemies early than to kill just a few. If your guys get wounded withdraw back further onto the roof so they can bandage themselves.

This is easy if you have a couple of grenade launchers (any kind) and is trivial if you have a mortar. The buildings tend to funnel the attackers into just a few areas.

You can also put down explosives with remote detonators along the most likely avenues of attacks.


Re: Defending Drassen Mine from mass enemies[message #248567] Mon, 05 April 2010 19:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
BluenosePsycho
Messages:3
Registered:April 2010
Location: Maritimes, Canada
Yeah here's the thing, I have no interest in editing the hell out of my mercs (no insult meant, but I consider that cheating), or leaving Drassen to the end. The whole point of Drassen is that it's the first city you liberate and comes with a airport for you to ship in equipment from Bobby Ray's.

A monotonous grind through 100+ mooks, hiding in the dentist's office and mowing them down as they run past the windows or in through the door, doesn't strike me as exciting, especially when my best weapon is a Colt Commando with only 3 magazines.
Re: Defending Drassen Mine from mass enemies[message #248569] Mon, 05 April 2010 20:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Logisteric

 
Messages:3474
Registered:December 2008
Location: B
ever tried a campaign in which the first airport to be taken is meduna international? it's fun
Re: Defending Drassen Mine from mass enemies[message #248571] Mon, 05 April 2010 20:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
SpaceViking

 
Messages:762
Registered:January 2004
Location: Rochester, Minnesota, USA
BluenosePsycho
Yeah here's the thing, I have no interest in editing the hell out of my mercs (no insult meant, but I consider that cheating), or leaving Drassen to the end. The whole point of Drassen is that it's the first city you liberate and comes with a airport for you to ship in equipment from Bobby Ray's.

A monotonous grind through 100+ mooks, hiding in the dentist's office and mowing them down as they run past the windows or in through the door, doesn't strike me as exciting, especially when my best weapon is a Colt Commando with only 3 magazines.


Oh, I agree. Having the Drassen counterattack at the beginning is silly. You either have to know its coming or use cheesy tactics (and still know its coming).


Re: Defending Drassen Mine from mass enemies[message #248598] Tue, 06 April 2010 03:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kaerar

 
Messages:2090
Registered:January 2003
Location: Australia :D
You don't need cheesy tactics! Beating it needs good tactics and a team of 4 plus to be on the safe side. Though I never do Drassen first. I always go San Mona, Chitzena, Chit SAM, then Drassen. You have some good weapons by that point and you can cope with the DCA (I did that route before the DCA existed though). I was lucky enough to grab an HK21e on one occasion which kept the Army at bay nicely!


Re: Defending Drassen Mine from mass enemies[message #248599] Tue, 06 April 2010 06:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
BluenosePsycho
Messages:3
Registered:April 2010
Location: Maritimes, Canada
Ahh, everything working now, I just had a bad install. Maybe I'll give the Drassen Horde a try next run through the game, but honestly I'll probably just move on to the next mod, like Urban Chaos, or buy Wildfire.

Not the thread to throw the cudos around, but I absolutely love the changes brought in by 1.13. I especially get a kick out of the mental image of my hardcore merc working at the Drassen airport.
Re: Defending Drassen Mine from mass enemies[message #248602] Tue, 06 April 2010 07:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tao

 
Messages:2225
Registered:August 2009
Location: The Known Universe
BluenosePsycho


Not the thread to throw the cudos around, but I absolutely love the changes brought in by 1.13. I especially get a kick out of the mental image of my hardcore merc working at the Drassen airport.


My guy sleeps at the beach resort and bangs Fox all day and all night long.... :bluegrin:
Re: Defending Drassen Mine from mass enemies[message #249850] Thu, 22 April 2010 02:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
KOKON

 
Messages:20
Registered:April 2010
Location: Moscow
I tried to play without saves (not just iron will but without saves absolutely) on standard difficulty.

I say 1.13 is unplayeble with this Drassen bullshit. You have to save after every shot or you have to exploit the game avoiding taking the Drassen.

I dont believe there is a man on the earth who was able to win Drassen without saves or exploiting.

Standard difficulty should be winnable with no saves and cheats if you do your best. Now it is absolutely unwinable even if you make some tricks like training militia before taking whole Drassen or bying expensive mercs for 1 day to defend it.

Drassen horde should be reduced 2 or better 4 times + should be delayed on several days for normal difficulty (and i think for other difficulties also as you have less starting money and other dissadvantages). Now you have 70-80 enemies attacking it simulteniously incuding 20+ elites.

Such "standard" difficulty assumes that you save the game after every shot as a standard.

[Updated on: Thu, 22 April 2010 03:01] by Moderator

Re: Defending Drassen Mine from mass enemies[message #249851] Thu, 22 April 2010 02:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
KOKON

 
Messages:20
Registered:April 2010
Location: Moscow
Kaerar
You don't need cheesy tactics! Beating it needs good tactics and a team of 4 plus to be on the safe side.


Do it with no saves now on standard difficulty. Taking other towns is exploiting as you know the future. And if you have 35000 how long can you survive without a mine? The guy you created + some cheap mercs are unable to win battles without saves. You need at least one more or less expensive merc this means one week without a mine and you'll have no money.

[Updated on: Thu, 22 April 2010 03:02] by Moderator

Re: Defending Drassen Mine from mass enemies[message #249853] Thu, 22 April 2010 03:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
SpaceViking

 
Messages:762
Registered:January 2004
Location: Rochester, Minnesota, USA
I agree that if you play the game the way it leads you (Omerta then Drassen) you will get owned by the counterattack. I have long suggested that it be turned off.

Having such attacks *later* in the game makes much more sense, especially for towns further south.


Re: Defending Drassen Mine from mass enemies[message #249857] Thu, 22 April 2010 04:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kaerar

 
Messages:2090
Registered:January 2003
Location: Australia :D
KOKON
Kaerar
You don't need cheesy tactics! Beating it needs good tactics and a team of 4 plus to be on the safe side.


Do it with no saves now on standard difficulty. Taking other towns is exploiting as you know the future. And if you have 35000 how long can you survive without a mine? The guy you created + some cheap mercs are unable to win battles without saves. You need at least one more or less expensive merc this means one week without a mine and you'll have no money.

I routinely do this. The simple fact is that Buzz or Raven can cope with anything you need to throw at them. I use an IMP with a Mrks of about 75 - 85 depending on how I feel, Raven or Buzz (normally Raven with her costs adjusted so she isn't overpriced!) then have a couple of lower level mercs like Dr.Q, Igor, Blood, Grunty, Barry, etc...

Now of them most are unreliable for shooting so you have them stick together while Raven racks up the headshots. Doing the straight to Drassen thing is hard, but cost wise it's pretty simple. I normally work on getting my IMP or Igor up to speed on shooting asap so I have at least 2 capable of being Marksmen if not Snipers.


Re: Defending Drassen Mine from mass enemies[message #249867] Thu, 22 April 2010 11:59 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
KOKON

 
Messages:20
Registered:April 2010
Location: Moscow
You can not buy both Buzz and Raven with your initial 35000 and i dont talk about few more cheap mercs.

The only way is to avoid Drassen in the beginning of the game and it is a throwing away of the cource suggested by the game. I assume this is future prediction and exploit as Miguel says go find that prist or we will die starving. May be it would be ok for Insane difficulty but for standard that is bullshit. May be you can win drassen with specialy chosen mercs and specialy created personage of yourself but this is a future prediction and critinism.

Play on standard difficulty with realism, normal Bobby ray assortiment and normal guns turned on with default ini with absolutely no saves and move to Drassen without moving around it or exploiting. Save whole replay post it on your tube. I give you 100$ if you win counterattack.

[Updated on: Thu, 22 April 2010 12:27] by Moderator

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