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Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #183609] Thu, 01 May 2008 00:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
the scorpion

 
Messages:1834
Registered:September 2004
Location: CH
pfm

think of it: there are many weapon classes and there are 3 bodytypes

we can do at least 3 different sets of animations before anything is redundant (truly needs to be added by code)

e.g. big male --> shotgun , female ---> submachinegun , Normal male --> sniper

(just examples)

then there are shooting stances, brth stances and running stances, 3 times, standing, crouched, prone... there could be a lot of work done before any coding is involved to "add" things.

(assuming we're ready to overwrite the default anims for the time being)

yes, one question was raised, seeing much of a difference at higher resolutions:

to be honest, only the frames where the weapon is shown straight (see my above examples) allow for a lot of detail to clearly show what weapon class we use.
but difference between submachinegun and sniper rifles for example will be nicely visible in 800x600



let's assume that work is done without layers first because no coder has expressed interest in adding it yet. If layers would be added later, maybe the "non-weapon" part of the pictures that were made without layer system could still be erased?

i mean the new weapons must be drawn anyway, whether there's a merc around it or not... doesn't seem to be that important at first sight...

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Sergeant Major
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #183611] Thu, 01 May 2008 00:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lisac is currently offline lisac

 
Messages:92
Registered:July 2006
Location: Austria
the scorpion
i think you shouldn't think about "all" animations necessary for new weapon classes. If you think of a typical battle, there is only a few animations that are used often and that focus on the gun, these are limited to basicly shooting, standing idle and running/ walking.

The weapons in most other animations are not very prominent and wouldn't be shown much in battles so for a long time, placholder could be used there.


Right, exactly my thoughts... However, adding a few armor variations to each merc (F,S,M) could cause the ANIMS directory to get really heavy.

Luckily for us, we don't need to add those right away. A few variations with weapons (like those you've shown in your previous post) would be a step forward and a definite improvement over the current system.

Now, we need a coder to answer a few simple questions...

1) 8-char filenames?
2) Switching the animation sets according to the currently equipped weapon?

P.S.
I'm about to make a female character next week and try to rig it (prepare it for animations). The next goal would be remaking the original female sprites using the current "sprite colored by palette" system... Let's see what can be done with it Wink

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Corporal 1st Class
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #183613] Thu, 01 May 2008 00:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
PFM is currently offline PFM

 
Messages:22
Registered:July 2006
Location: Czech Republic
the scorpion
pfm

think of it: there are many weapon classes and there are 3 bodytypes

we can do at least 3 different sets of animations before anything is redundant (truly needs to be added by code)

e.g. big male --> shotgun , female ---> submachinegun , Normal male --> sniper


I am aware of that. there are pistols, SMG, shotguns, rifles(assualt and normal), sniper rifles and LMG. That's 6 times (stand, crounch, lie) times (idle, walk, run(only stand), hit, shoot, jump, climb, water etc) So we come with 6 x 3 x 6 for the begining and in 8 directions = 6 x 3 x 6 x 8 equals 864 animations. Am I right? :gaga: Or am I crazy? :crazy:

probably both :placard:

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Private 1st Class
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #183616] Thu, 01 May 2008 01:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
the scorpion

 
Messages:1834
Registered:September 2004
Location: CH
that's discouraging PFM ;-/

now mulltiply this 864 with 13 average animation frame number and you get an approximation of what the workload would look like ;-D



but then, it has to be taken with a grain of salt: "getting hit" doesn't show a weapon, jumping doesn't show a weapon, swimming doesn't show a weapon, climbing and dying (these anims are sometimes over 200 very detailed frames long) don't use a weapon etc.

this is why doing a complete set of weapons is easier than a complete set of armour

yet armour, as well as weapons, doesn't matter in each and every situation.

e.g. when your character sleeps, when your character dies, climbs or falls from a roof, there's little need to show armour.
maybe we could up some examples. Like in my screenshot, it's a black hat and a coat ;-D

Lisac:

i see good potential in using palettes. Do you remember my suggestion to have palettes from armour only apply to the bodypart where they are worn?

e.g. pants to the "pants" part, vests to the "vest/ shirt" part and headgear on the haircolor (lacking anything better)

this would allow to combine 4 camo patterns with 3 bodypart in many different ways.

armour class could also be shown by camouflage pattern/ colour ;-D

i mean every char has colors defined for bodyparts, so i should not be sooo tricky to have camo defined by the bodypart as well. it would in fact even make a lot of sense.

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Sergeant Major
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #183636] Thu, 01 May 2008 09:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
PFM is currently offline PFM

 
Messages:22
Registered:July 2006
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Khor1255
Adding new animations also requires coding.

Besides, the game already/ sort of/ adds layers in the way it adds colours to sprites.

Maybe some borrowed code here?

In any event, something that can cut down on the workload is worth exploring.

Coders?


yes, it does! but somewhere in the source code there have to be part of the code that should look like this:(translated from C langueage Smile )

1. merc doesn't have weapon in his hands - use animations without weapon
2. ooh look, merc has weapon in his hands - use animations with weapon

now from my point of view we could modify these lines(easily? :whoknows: ) this way:

1. don't change anything
2a. ooh look, merc has weapon type8 in his hands(shotgun) - use type8 animations(animations with shotgun)
2b. ooh look, merc has weapon type3 in his hands(SMG) - use type3 animations(animations with SMG)

problem - I don't know how the code handles animations. Does anybody? :help: Maybe it involves a lot of coding(pointing engine to every animation). How about externalizing it?

weapon types are already defined in the code(or externalized). So in my opinion it's easier to do it that to code layers. Although layers are more comfortable and I don't have any problem with layers.

[Updated on: Thu, 01 May 2008 09:43] by Moderator

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Private 1st Class
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #183643] Thu, 01 May 2008 13:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
the scorpion

 
Messages:1834
Registered:September 2004
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other examples i drew some time ago

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/3269/bodyandguntypessh5.png

(s merc sniper, f merc SWAT, M merc firing supressed Mac-10/ Uzi)

one problem is the lack of detail in S_merc and F_merc. The anims of those bodytpyes often appear a bit "washed" compared to the M_merc that i'm used to.

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Sergeant Major
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #183658] Thu, 01 May 2008 15:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Khor1255 is currently offline Khor1255

 
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@pfm

You could always do your full animations then later wash the bodytype out with the background colour to make the layer.



A coder should really chime in here and let us know if these is any interest.

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Sergeant Major
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #183669] Thu, 01 May 2008 17:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
the scorpion

 
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for how long has the thread been active before?

how much coder feedback did it get?



i think whoever has the lead on the idea (Lisac i think) would have to individually contact the coders.

i only know that bugmonster managed to implement custom animations in ja2005 and 1.13. if he's not around, there's probably nobody who has taken a lot of research into the animation engine.

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Sergeant Major
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #183697] Thu, 01 May 2008 21:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
BallerDave

 
Messages:72
Registered:April 2008
Location: Ze land of ze sheep, Dubl...

heyy, here comes the modder noob (who actually doesnt mod at all)

i really REALLY aprreciate what u guys are trying to do here and i admire the amount of work ur putting into it. i would help if i had any idea of how this works. anyway if i may make a liitle suggestion?

i find it wierd the way the mercs are supposed to wear armors or helmets, but only have these shirts on?! maybe (doesnt really have to be a new set of textures for every type of armor) u guys cud try to develop generic textures to show that they are wearing armor (and what would really be WHACK is if they wore ghuille suit). anyway, its just a small observation, i personally think it would be a great addition.

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Corporal
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #183712] Thu, 01 May 2008 23:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
PFM is currently offline PFM

 
Messages:22
Registered:July 2006
Location: Czech Republic
lisac

1) 8-char filenames?
2) Switching the animation sets according to the currently equipped weapon?


I AM NOT A CODER but looking into source code, I can tell for 100% sure that:
1) yes, there is a limit for 8-char filenames right now
2) yes. the code is checking if merc has a gun, if the gun is twohanded and if he has two pistols in his hands

I looked into the code for 5 minutes to figure this out. I don't see ANY DIFFICULTIES in adding addtional types of animations, although I AM NOT A CODER
(I have little to know experience with scripts and macros and functions in excell Very Happy )

EDIT: grammar, grammar, grammar

[Updated on: Thu, 01 May 2008 23:52] by Moderator

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Private 1st Class
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #183716] Fri, 02 May 2008 00:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
PFM is currently offline PFM

 
Messages:22
Registered:July 2006
Location: Czech Republic
PFM
1) yes, there is a limit for 8-char filenames right now
2) yes. the code is checking if merc has a gun, if the gun is twohanded and if he has two pistols in his hands


mmm, looking into animation folder - there are animations with longer names M_SHOEDUST.sti for example. So I am wrong on the first one. But take a look at this:
define MAX_ANIMATIONS 320
This should mean we can onyl have 320 animations? Am I right this time?

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Private 1st Class
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #183751] Fri, 02 May 2008 04:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Berserk00644 is currently offline Berserk00644

 
Messages:8
Registered:March 2008
maybe we should work on other anims for starters, like maybe one new death animation for a knife attack to neck... if we did it from all 8 directions at lets say 13 frames or so thats 8x3x13 = 312 thats alot less then the 800 or so above... then if its easy to add into the game, then we could work on adding all the guns...

imho it seems like to much work to make all these gun animations if nobody wants to even see if they can add them.

dont get me wrong i think it would be great to add them and armor, but maybe baby steps is the way to go with this project.

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Private
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics – Sprite[message #183756] Fri, 02 May 2008 06:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mauser is currently offline Mauser

 
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another good and useful animation that shouldn

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First Sergeant
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics – Sprite[message #183757] Fri, 02 May 2008 06:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mauser is currently offline Mauser

 
Messages:756
Registered:August 2006
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another comparatively easy thing to do would be a binocular animation and pose.

a derivation of the weapon rising animation, one handed. lifting the binocs to the face, then scanning the horizon left to right just like with the gun.

right now, when using the binocs nothing happens animation wise. which is odd, because you often don

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First Sergeant
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #183768] Fri, 02 May 2008 11:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
PFM is currently offline PFM

 
Messages:22
Registered:July 2006
Location: Czech Republic
Berserk00644
maybe we should work on other anims for starters, like maybe one new death animation for a knife attack to neck... if we did it from all 8 directions at lets say 13 frames or so thats 8x3x13 = 312 thats alot less then the 800 or so above... then if its easy to add into the game, then we could work on adding all the guns...

imho it seems like to much work to make all these gun animations if nobody wants to even see if they can add them.

dont get me wrong i think it would be great to add them and armor, but maybe baby steps is the way to go with this project.


do you know how to make those animations? OR can you make them? Making them IS ENDLESS AMOUNT OF WORK!!! doing them pixel-by-pixel is worthless because you will spend weeks maybe months by making one animation in one direction.

other problem is implementation. adding NEW types of animation is a trisky one! (what the hell is trisky???? :gaga: maybe RISKY and TRICKY in the same time Very Happy ) you need to define new animation and conditions which must be meet to use NEW animation. For example new "death-to-wall" animation. conditions:
1. must be played instead of "back death" animation
2. must be played only when WALL is behind the merc
3. I DON'T KNOW how is wall defined in the source code - is it the same as any "obstacle"?
3a. is WALL equal to ROCK? you don't want to play "bouncing of the wall" animation when merc hit rocks behind him with his legs, do you?
4. are death animations played random? (well they are played in right direction, but any other conditions?) I DON'T KNOW
and so on - more questions than answers

adding guns animations is easier!
1. we have all the animations we need - the only thing we need to do is "swap" M4/M16 style weapon with different one (AK style like Scorpion)
2. engine is already testing what kind of weapon merc holds in his hands. ADDing another types of "weapons"(I should say items, binoculars aren't a weapon, right? Wink ) should be easy - I can try it by "watch and learn plus trials&errors" approach but I won't have much time next 1 or 2 months - university studies...

so I vote for additional weapon animations(ONE or TWO for the beginning - we can use scorpions BIG_MALE_AK and test it) unless we FIND A CODER who will take a look at animation part. I haven't found him yet!

binoculars...I was thinking about it. BUT(!!!!): how you will make those animations? lisac is trying to make animation by 2D->3D->2D approach(we need to have the same animation, not different one for weapons, differrent one for binoculars, different one for death etc) but I don't know how far he is. We can even change whole animations for new one, BUT WHO WILL MAKE THEM?

EDIT: grammar...

[Updated on: Fri, 02 May 2008 11:06] by Moderator

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Private 1st Class
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #183772] Fri, 02 May 2008 11:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
the scorpion

 
Messages:1834
Registered:September 2004
Location: CH
interestingly, there is a dilemma between

a) adding single new movements/ actions to the game that need new anims

like suggested in several threads e.g. here

http://www.ja-galaxy-forum.com/board/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=127403&page=1#Post182314

which would require a lot of unique new code

and
b) what is suggested in this thread where in similar ways as the existing code works just new anims, not new functionality should be added (where tons of new anims and still a lot of new, but not-so-specially-unique code is required)


personally i think either option provides quite some cool stuff. Either option seems hard to do.

--> dilemma



disadvantages

bloating filesize itself doesn't seem big an issue these days... but imagine we actually did the new weapon stuff. If then, a new movement is added, if it is with a gun, it would require 8 times as much work as it would now to completely add it.

so this is actually a very tricky issue overall, game-development wise.
maybe we should comfort ourselves to offering alternative animations first before we want to have them added to the game and see what we can come up with.

i'm especially curious as to the detail level that good artists like Lisac can achieve, especially for the smaller bodytpye animations. (you've seen my examples, a mediocre artist like myself can't achieve a lot of detail very easily there... and it is only one of usually 112 frames there)

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Sergeant Major
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics – Sprite[message #183781] Fri, 02 May 2008 14:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lt.Havoc is currently offline Lt.Havoc

 
Messages:34
Registered:April 2006
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Well, what happend to the idea of using the FIFE graphic engine at all? Was that dropped all of a sudden or evlated that it wont fit the game? I mean, using the FIFE graphic engine might slove some of the problems you guys are currently facing.

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Private 1st Class
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #183784] Fri, 02 May 2008 15:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lisac is currently offline lisac

 
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Lt.Havoc
Well, what happend to the idea of using the FIFE graphic engine at all?

No human resources available.

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Corporal 1st Class
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics – Sprite[message #183791] Fri, 02 May 2008 16:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lt.Havoc is currently offline Lt.Havoc

 
Messages:34
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Pardon? Can you elobrate that for me, please? We have a forum full of mebers and in this thread are a lot of people discussing the idea of improving the orginal graphics, so you cant really say that there arnt any human resources avalible. And if thats the case, you have to ask around and get some people intrested in it and the problem of resources gets sloved.

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Private 1st Class
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics – Sprite[message #183793] Fri, 02 May 2008 16:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mauser is currently offline Mauser

 
Messages:756
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@ Lt.Havoc : how many of the posters here are really able coders and graphics artists? most of the people here, including myself, cannot contribute much to the developement at all. and those that can, often are also involved in other projects and sometimes have a real life and jobs too.

good and devoted coders and developers with plenty of free time are VERY rare indeed!

One thing the stable milestone release was meant for, is to attract more able devs and helpful human resources to this project.

that

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First Sergeant
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics – Sprite[message #183800] Fri, 02 May 2008 16:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lt.Havoc is currently offline Lt.Havoc

 
Messages:34
Registered:April 2006
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Well, what I trying to say was, that it is talked about how to improve the orginal, current graphics of JA2, wihch I think will take the same amount, if not more time then totally replacing the engine. I mean, every 2 or 3 posts I read how difficult it is to add new animations and whatnot and how the filesizes gets increased etc. and then wehn I say "People, why not use XYZ instead?" there is either no answer, or short answers like "No human resources avalibe". The whole thing wanst even discussed, no one of the devs even looked into the FIFE forums at all nor did anyone of the contacted the FIFE guys.

If you really dont like that idea, then just say it, say that my idea sucks ass and that I should go to hell, its that simple. There are more graphic artists and coders out there then you think, there are lots of forums where somone can ask around and get intrest in this project and whatnot, C and C+ are the standarts of game coding for years now, so you cant tell me there isnt a coder out there that dosent know about it.

I know they also have jobs and real life occupations, but thats typical for all modders out there and all mods. I dont know any single mod where the people are jobless bums that work 24h on it, so that isnt really the problem. With proper organisation and planning, the time issue can be sloved and no one says the coders and graphic artist have to work like slaves on it everyday in thier free time.

Yes, promotion of this project is a nessecary thing toi attract more people to it that can help imrpove the mod.

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Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #183802] Fri, 02 May 2008 16:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kaerar is currently offline Kaerar

 
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Well regarding FIFE, I like the engine but earlier in the discussion the subject of an engine switch was ruled out basically cos of the issues of which engine and 2D/3D and how it wouldn't be JA2 any more. So even though it may help in the long run it isn't really a valid solution cos at the end of the day its 10 years old and if we were gonna use a new engine (with money and coders) you could use any number of far more advanced pieces of kit.

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Lieutenant

Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics – Sprite[message #183803] Fri, 02 May 2008 16:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lt.Havoc is currently offline Lt.Havoc

 
Messages:34
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No one will ever pump any money into this, because that wouild mean you need a real development rteam and whatnot. This is a free mod, not a full scale game, so I soubt that this will ever get real professional. Also, who is able to license a good graphic engine that will cost you at least 10.000 Dollars and more? You can pretty much forget that, expect you are the son of Donald Trump and have cash to spend or something. And you wont be able to sutain such a project from donations alone.

A fre engine ala FIFE is the only avalible solution, expect improving the orginal graphics, wihch was pointed out, is a pain in the ass.

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Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #183809] Fri, 02 May 2008 17:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Khor1255 is currently offline Khor1255

 
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The only real pain in the ass is the ammount of frame by frame work you have to do to make an animation.

If you are saying fife somehow automates this process than perhaps it is worth looking into (provided we can still use the same physics engine). But even if we were to use a new graphics engine, t5ons of work would have to be redone.

Using the existing engine just means making the new animations (which we have people willing to do) and coding them in (which we get very little input and even less cooperation on).

But changing the whole imaging format would require massive ammounts of coding. Coding is the manpower we are in very short supply of.

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Sergeant Major
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #183810] Fri, 02 May 2008 17:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
the scorpion

 
Messages:1834
Registered:September 2004
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discussing is fun, but moving a finger isn't huh?


meh, i can't code for shit, but i can tell you guys, modding gta4-to ja2 would solve all our problems forevah


i would be one thing if people that seriously can port ja2 to the FIFE engine would be suggesting and starting to do it, but looking as it is just the wet dream of a single forum person...

...what real chances are there?

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Sergeant Major
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics – Sprite[message #183811] Fri, 02 May 2008 17:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mauser is currently offline Mauser

 
Messages:756
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guys, just think how much work and time have gone into 1.13 project until now just that we got to the point we are now.

what do you think will it take in terms of worktime to port over the comnplete 1.13 projet to another engine and then redoing most of the graphics and animations, so we get a real visible enhancement out of it?

can you imagine, how long that might take and how many people would have to work on this, which all need to be coordinated?

i just sincerely doubt, that this can be done with the ressources we have now at our disposal.

but if someone could find and assemble another dedicated coding and graphics team from somewhere...

i really think we should restrain ourselves to things that can be realistically done with our current resources.

and concerning FIFe engine, please also remember that FIFe itself is a project in developement status and far from being a complete and stable base to build a game on. could you imagine the chaos of 2 projects in constant change to be merged together?

also we

[Updated on: Fri, 02 May 2008 17:42] by Moderator

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First Sergeant
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #183813] Fri, 02 May 2008 17:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Khor1255 is currently offline Khor1255

 
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Moving a finger isn't? Are you talking about me?

I will not move anymore fingers animating things that will likely just end up on my hard drive like they've been for years now.

What's the point?

So I can post screenies of things that can't even function in game?

No thanx.

And when I do go to try to collaborate with some people - wink wink - there is often a pig headed reluctanct to do it any other way than EXACTLY the way the other guy wants to do it (on my own mod I have been guilty of this as well).

So if - for instance - I'm willing to collaborate on a set of long sleeved animations but the guy I work with does not want them to use the universal hot blue colour so they can take a variety of in game pallettes I lose interest.

If someone wants to do a few months worth of animating with no coder even saying they MIGHT finally make this work in game I am similarly not interested.

So until we hear from a willing coder this is all just talk. Interesting idea, but just talk.

But if you guys want to do all those animations, by all means do so. You may even catch the attention of a coder.

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Sergeant Major
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics – Sprite[message #183815] Fri, 02 May 2008 17:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lt.Havoc is currently offline Lt.Havoc

 
Messages:34
Registered:April 2006
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There is more then one who suggested the FIFE engine and you can keep your sarcastic comments to yourself. I asked around in the FIFE forums and they said that it would be possible to use FIFE for JA2, but because I dont have any insights of the mod development and who is making what, I can not give them any detailed informations, so the dev team mebers themselfs have to ask the right questions instead of general jibber jabber of "is it possible?" and "Can it be done?" etc. posts.

You guys are developing the mod, not me, so what can I do as a single person? All I can do is aks around and find people who can code and ask them if they would be intrested int working on this mod.

And yes, Scorpion, proting it over to GTA 4 would be really aswome, that is an idea that we should look into and I

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Private 1st Class
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #183818] Fri, 02 May 2008 17:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
the scorpion

 
Messages:1834
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the "not moving a finger" comment was not aimed at you khor. i know you do/ did may things. The comment was aimed at people interrupting our custom animation discussions with their ideas of a "wet-dream-game", the crysis engine or whatever...

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Sergeant Major
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics – Sprite[message #183819] Fri, 02 May 2008 17:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lt.Havoc is currently offline Lt.Havoc

 
Messages:34
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But what does it help to add custom animations wehn you cant add them properly? Kohr said you guys need a coder, is that correct? Then I

[Updated on: Fri, 02 May 2008 17:42] by Moderator

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Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #183822] Fri, 02 May 2008 17:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Khor1255 is currently offline Khor1255

 
Messages:1817
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lisac asked a few simple questions over a day ago that are still unanswered. We need at least a little cooperation or this will likely never happen.

It is a great idea. Bravo to lisac for initially bringing it up and hooray to anyone who works on this (whether the work turns out to be mothballed or not).

I certainly don't want to poo poo this idea but the simpler and more practicle we make it the more likely it will actually happen. Remeber, most people here have very limited part time to do this sort of thing. Even when I think I have lots of part time my infant son sometimes decides it's time to check out what daddy's doing and my attention goes to where it is most needed. I'm sure just about everyone else has similar factors placed on their free time.

We need a streamlined approach to this or maybe a huge ammount of coding work initially (porting to a new graphics engine) followed by a lot of porting of Ja2 images to the new format. It is much easier for me to concieve of this getting done using the existing graphics engine simply because it is familliar territory both to animators and coders but I may not be seeing something clearly here.

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Sergeant Major
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics – Sprite[message #183839] Fri, 02 May 2008 19:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lt.Havoc is currently offline Lt.Havoc

 
Messages:34
Registered:April 2006
Location: Germany

Yeah, but you people didnt even looked into FIFE at all. No one of you guys seemd to have posted a question in the FIFE forums and the thread link was posted more then oince here. I ask me, how much more streamlined it can get, really? Yes, its work, a lot of work, but its the same amount of work as fiddeling around with the existing engine.

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Private 1st Class
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #183845] Fri, 02 May 2008 19:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Khor1255 is currently offline Khor1255

 
Messages:1817
Registered:August 2003
Location: Pleasantville, NJ
Because we would have to code the game to use another graphics engine.


Since I don't know how to do that it would be a waste of time.

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Sergeant Major
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #183852] Fri, 02 May 2008 19:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
the scorpion

 
Messages:1834
Registered:September 2004
Location: CH
guess different people are talking different issues here...

i think the one(s) who actually care for the fife engine should be pursuing this very promising approach as well as they can.

The others migth still do things to which they can contribute. Me, i can't and thus i won't contribute to the entire "let's port ja2 to engine xy" issue. So when i discuss a different issue, i'd like to be left in peace about the engine discussion.

it is adifferent matter and i think it has it's own thread, doesn't it?

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Sergeant Major
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #183862] Fri, 02 May 2008 20:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Khor1255 is currently offline Khor1255

 
Messages:1817
Registered:August 2003
Location: Pleasantville, NJ
Probably right.

Porting Ja2 to another graphics engine is/ should be / another topic so it can either be adressed or ignored by the actual coder who would have to do some things to make that happen.

If someone can get a guy from the FIFE boards or wherever to take on the job that is great. But maybe this thread should be used to discuss things that might actually get done and I have not heard any coder say they are even very interested in this project let alone in porting to another graphics engine.

But if there is a better way to do it (without having to do away with Ja2's physics engine) it sounds like it is worth a try.

Start a thread and see if a coder replies.

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Sergeant Major
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #183877] Fri, 02 May 2008 22:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
BirdFlu is currently offline BirdFlu

 
Messages:438
Registered:September 2007
Location: Lampukistan
Quote:
Yeah, but you people didnt even looked into FIFE at all. No one of you guys seemd to have posted a question in the FIFE forums and the thread link was posted more then once here.

Really?

mvBarracuda, FIFE Forum
No ja 1.13 devs contacted us directly AFAIK

Is a question on the forum not direct enough?

Quote:
No human resources available.

Was there anyone else working on this, besides me. And since i am busy with another project right now, this one has to fall short.
I can't work on two projects at the same time. So, when i'm done with the other project i can start to work an this one again, unless someone else start before.

---

Anyway, i can tell you something about the graphics system. Basically speaking, there are video objects that represent video memory and hold
data like images or framebuffers. When you draw something you have to do three steps
1. Load image data
2. Blit (copy) that data into the framebuffer.
2. Delete image data.

Our image data is stored in sti files and every sti file can contain multiple subimages. An animation is such a sti file. So, an animation consists
of a number of images, but it has also some timing information attached to it, i.e. when a certain subimage has to be drawn.

The timing information for every animation is hardcoded and all image data for ane animation is in one file only. Thus the animation data structure in
the code only references this one file (or the loaded image data from that file). When you render an animation, you know which subimage you need
(because of the timing information) and you just blit that image into the framebuffer.

Now, if you would want to draw multiple layers, you would need a list or vector of "sti files" (ideally with an equal number of subimages).
And where you drew one subimage before, now you have to draw a subimage from all "sti files" in your list. When you change your weapon in the
game you also change one (or more) "sti files" in the list. Changing other animation control structures should not be necessary. And if your
datastructures can hold multiple image files they can hold only one file too, i.e. the one layer case is a special case of the multiple layer case.

So, we have to initialize an animation properly, i.e. find image files that belong together. Rendering should be straight forward. Changing weapons
and armor and stuff like that could be a little tricky, since these changes are executed somewhere outside the animation or rendering code.

Another tricky part is to ensure that you can work with one AND with multiple layers at the same time, otherwise you would have to redo all animations
(and then find out that there was a misconception somewhere and you have to redo all animations again after that misconception was fixed).

The determination which files "belong together" or are part a of a multilayer image is important too and we have to decide what the filenames should be
and where these files should be located in our directory structure.

---

So, on the one hand not thaaaaat hard, but still requires some (a lot) of work and some problem solving abilities when something doesn't work as described.


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Master Sergeant
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #183880] Fri, 02 May 2008 23:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Khor1255 is currently offline Khor1255

 
Messages:1817
Registered:August 2003
Location: Pleasantville, NJ
Thanx for the response man.

Your current project is - in my opinion - waaayyyy more important than this one and I do not want to see you get disracted.

I do; however, have one question that might help animators decide on what route to take:

Do you think it is a better idea to do the layers or to make seperate animations for every gun type for instance?

Bear in mind that if armour were also to be implemented as new animations we would then have to make a seperate animation for every concievable gun and armour combination.

I think I already know the answer but there may be people starting to work on these animation even now and it would be good to point them in the right direction.

But even if they do start making full animations we could always erase anything but the layer at a later date. So maybe even this question can wait.

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Sergeant Major
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #183890] Fri, 02 May 2008 23:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
BirdFlu is currently offline BirdFlu

 
Messages:438
Registered:September 2007
Location: Lampukistan
You have to consider the distinguishable and variable objects in an image( like bodytype, weapon, armour, hair etc.). Some of these objects can be
varied by using different palettes, others can not. In these other cases you have to create an animation for every combination of objects.
If you want a flexible system, i would propose layers, because then the combinations would be done at runtime (let the computer do the hard work).

And i can offer you this. Since i can render animations (to a certain extent) in my own code already, i could easily extend it to render animations in a layered
fashion. So you can create some example layers and send them to me and we can try out how it looks before we start to integrate layers into the ja2 engine.

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Master Sergeant
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #183911] Sat, 03 May 2008 02:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lisac is currently offline lisac

 
Messages:92
Registered:July 2006
Location: Austria
BirdFlu
And i can offer you this.

OK, I got you now, you won't escape me this time :shake:
BirdFlu
Since i can render animations (to a certain extent) in my own code already, i could easily extend it to render animations in a layered fashion. So you can create some example layers and send them to me and we can try out how it looks before we start to integrate layers into the ja2 engine.

Dammit man, I'm starting the whole GFX thing next week... You need layers? You got'em!

Anyway, on a side note, how long should it take to finish the first project (estimated)?

Thanks for sticking to us till the end Wink

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Corporal 1st Class
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #183923] Sat, 03 May 2008 08:17 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Kaerar is currently offline Kaerar

 
Messages:2022
Registered:January 2003
Location: Australia :D
Thats really good to hear lisac and Birdflu. Wish I had the time to offer some help to you guys. Instead I'll just offer my support.

@scorp, sorry if my ideas about using other engines cause you annoyance, but I don't see the point in updating to and already out of date engine just for the sake of it. If we would update the engine it may as well be to something at least semi-current and FIFE is never going to be that. And trust me if I had the money available I would fund a full scale update to JA2, though there may be licensing issues. Who cares, its almost abandonware now for as much as SF care about the series and the abomination thats coming. But hey its all hypothetical so doesn't matter.

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Lieutenant

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