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Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #184289]

Tue, 06 May 2008 17:14

Shanga is currently offline

Messages:3482
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia

I know about STI-edit, but try updating 900 frames with it.. Very Happy

Very Happy

I was wondering if anyone cracked the code so to crate a tool that automatically assembles animations accepted by the game.

To explain a bit... in the old days we vaguely knew/assumed that STIs and JSDs handle all animations. I at least didnt have the chance to read any info about how much of the animation is hardcoded and how much can be externalised. In the end, editing single tilesets was quite easy with STI-edit, but once you got into animated stuff, you had a lot of probs.

The best way to do it would be, imho, to get rid of the damn JSD and STI files and make the engine read from external files that can be easily moddded. IF thats not possible, at least make a tool that assembles BMP frames back into a valid animation.

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Captain

Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #184290]

Tue, 06 May 2008 17:14

lockie is currently offline

Messages:3721
Registered:February 2006
Location: Scotland

sorry for being off topic here folks , cheers kaerar . :wave:

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Captain

Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #184294]

Tue, 06 May 2008 18:17

Khor1255 is currently offline

Messages:1817
Registered:August 2003
Location: Pleasantville, NJ

I never had a problem assemebling an animation.

It would definately be cool to have a tool that automatically extracted all the frames of an .sti to .bmp format then 'reassembled' them back to .sti format when you were ready.

Because all you need is multiframed .stis extracted frame by frame to .bmp. Do your modifacations to each frame then load it back frame by frame to .sti edit remembering to check the key frames in the right places (at the beginning of each of the 8 directions the animation starts in).

The real work is the frame by frame drawing. I can't imagine a program that could automate this part but if there is such a program whooo freakin' hoo! I might even break down any buy me that little miracle.

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Sergeant Major

Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #184297]

Tue, 06 May 2008 19:34

Shanga is currently offline

Messages:3482
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia

Khor1255

The real work is the frame by frame drawing.

Nah... you dont draw each frame. Unless you're working on JA3 and have a strict deadline to finish the game in the next billion years. :devilaugh:
I have a feeling any serious 3D tool has that feature. You just animate the subject and export each frame and presto! you have 900 frames. I haven't been doing any 3d modelling for years now, but I am pretty sure. The hardest trick is to match the hardcoded colors and exact isometric stance, but a pro would easily do it.

Khor1255

Do your modifacations to each frame then load it back frame by frame to .sti

Not feasible when you are faced with hundreds of frames. Again, the idea is to allow people to make their own models, not only alter ready-made ones. Editing STIs on a huge scale is not a thing for the weak of heart. That comes from someone who spent half a year on some models only to have the game spit them back into my face.

I do hope the knowledge in this area has evolved a bit more than 3 years ago. Otherwise I think we need to start a JA2 v1.14 soonish Very Happy

Very Happy

[Updated on: Tue, 06 May 2008 19:40] by Moderator

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Captain

Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #184305]

Tue, 06 May 2008 20:30

lisac is currently offline

Messages:92
Registered:July 2006
Location: Austria

OK people, I want to introduce GINA, our newest fancy 3D testing model... She'll be posing, acting and stunting for us in the weeks to come. She's bald ATM, but I assure you she can wear any wig you can think of. Also, she'll be wearing different rags, protective gear and operate various weapons untill her contract expires...

Say hello to Gina!

http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/4725/comparexn9.png

Now onto lighting and rigging the model...

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Corporal 1st Class

Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics – Sprites[message #184306]

Tue, 06 May 2008 20:30

Lt.Havoc is currently offline

Messages:34
Registered:April 2006
Location: Germany

Guess that brings us back to the topic "Do we need a graphic engine change?"

Edit: forget what I said, it brings us back to the topic: "Is lisac aswome or is he aswome?"

[Updated on: Tue, 06 May 2008 20:32] by Moderator

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Private 1st Class

Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #184307]

Tue, 06 May 2008 20:42

Messages:1834
Registered:September 2004
Location: CH

Shanga

I know about STI-edit, but try updating 900 frames with it..

900 frames is fairly kiddy-stuff. That'd be less than 9 average animations. i've done the (almost) entire big male bodytype ;-D

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Sergeant Major

Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #184309]

Tue, 06 May 2008 20:49

Slax is currently offline

Messages:1411
Registered:July 2006
Location: People riding polar bears...

lisac

OK people, I want to introduce GINA, our newest fancy 3D testing model... She'll be posing, acting and stunting for us in the weeks to come. She's bald ATM, but I assure you she can wear any wig you can think of. Also, she'll be wearing different rags, protective gear and operate various weapons untill her contract expires...

Say hello to Gina!

Now onto lighting and rigging the model...

Here comes the revolution Very Happy

Very Happy

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Sergeant Major

Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #184312]

Tue, 06 May 2008 21:17

lisac is currently offline

Messages:92
Registered:July 2006
Location: Austria

I tried to determine the proper lighting for the model and there are the first results...

http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/6999/ginamultigt6.png

I tried to copy/paste the new sprite into an existing STI, just to try it out combined with the JA2 standard f_merc palette. It works fabulous :welder:

[Updated on: Tue, 06 May 2008 21:19] by Moderator

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Corporal 1st Class

Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #184313]

Tue, 06 May 2008 21:20

wanne (aka RoWa21) is currently offline

wanne (aka RoWa21)

Messages:1961
Registered:October 2005
Location: Austria

@lisac: Very well done. Keep up the good work!

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Sergeant Major

Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #184314]

Tue, 06 May 2008 21:37

Messages:1159
Registered:October 2005
Location: USA

Neat! :ok:

But is she anatomically correct though? :blah:

Very Happy

Very Happy

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Sergeant Major

Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #184318]

Tue, 06 May 2008 21:49

Khor1255 is currently offline

Messages:1817
Registered:August 2003
Location: Pleasantville, NJ

Yeah, all over the place.

I think our dear sweet little sprite has been to Hollywood and had some 'work' done.

Anyway, I don't know anything about 3d animating so I'll sit this one out.

edit

Baby got back.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[Updated on: Tue, 06 May 2008 21:58] by Moderator

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Sergeant Major

Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #184325]

Tue, 06 May 2008 23:15

Shanga is currently offline

Messages:3482
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia

@scorpion - I've edited hundreds of frames by hand too. But us Haywire types are only the exception to the rule. Razz

Razz

@lisac - here's a pro when you need one! Can I ask what you're using for 3d modelling?

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Captain

Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #184339]

Wed, 07 May 2008 01:23

lisac is currently offline

Messages:92
Registered:July 2006
Location: Austria

Lightwave 3D

I'm gonna need some more time to rig the character, cause I've forgot most of the principles of character animation. Also, I've lost awesome video tutorials about it a while ago and can't find it now... :wb:

Never mind, I'll come up with something already.

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Corporal 1st Class

Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #184343]

Wed, 07 May 2008 01:30

Kaerar is currently offline

Messages:2022
Registered:January 2003
Location: Australia :D

Is it just me or does GINA have a really big arse?

lol

I was thinking for models is there any way models from contempory games may be used to help expedite the process?

@Shanga - Project1 had the ability to batch add files. It was a little buggy, but it works well and was designed for animation use.

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Lieutenant

Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #184346]

Wed, 07 May 2008 01:45

BirdFlu is currently offline

Messages:438
Registered:September 2007
Location: Lampukistan

Khor1255

It would definately be cool to have a tool that automatically extracted all the frames of an .sti to .bmp format then 'reassembled' them back to .sti format when you were ready.

Extracting is quite simple, but reassembling could fail if after the modification the palettes are not the same for all sub-images. And you lose
the displacement values for the sub-images, unless you save them somewhere too. You could write the modified images into the old file, but this would
only work if the resolution has not changed.

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Master Sergeant

Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #184347]

Wed, 07 May 2008 01:46

Shanga is currently offline

Messages:3482
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia

About models from other games - you would need a "importable" model so to say, compatible with Lightwave... and due to the way JA2 is structured I think it would eventually take as much time to tweak that to work in JA2 as you would making new chars from scratch. Lisac's work is groundbreaking due to the facts I've mentioned. Once he refreshes his 3d skills exporting frames is a kid's play.

Regarding Project1, don't think I remember it... I might have tested it but in my time all tools had nasty bugs due to the experimental nature. Crashes and lost work were our middle names. If it works so nicely as you say, we're in business! What I can say? Fingers crossed...

Off to play 1.13 for the first time and be awed...

Quote:

Is it just me or does GINA have a really big arse?

The man said we can compensate that by using really big wigs... :venus:

[Updated on: Wed, 07 May 2008 01:54] by Moderator

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Captain

Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #184348]

Wed, 07 May 2008 01:53

lisac is currently offline

Messages:92
Registered:July 2006
Location: Austria

Kaerar

Is it just me or does GINA have a really big arse?

With so "many" pixels given, it's a matter of perspective. Rendering with anti-aliasing option OFF (and we must do it this way) forces the rendering program to place the object approximately inside the 2-dimensional matrix. This makes the arse look big from one perspective and normal (or even flat) from another.

Can you think of placing 3 apples in 4 cans - only one apple in one can and it's not allowed to split any of the apples? One can will always be empty, you just have to decide which one. So does the rendering engine too - it decides to render additional pixels (and make the arse big), because it can't manipulate with them.

I wonder if I've chosen the right example to explain this :headscratch:

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Corporal 1st Class

Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #184350]

Wed, 07 May 2008 01:55

Shanga is currently offline

Messages:3482
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia

Melons, you should've used melons as example. :headbanger:

[Updated on: Wed, 07 May 2008 01:56] by Moderator

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Captain

Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics – Sprites[message #184352]

Wed, 07 May 2008 03:15

Mauser is currently offline

Messages:756
Registered:August 2006
Location: Bavaria - Germany

well guys, this looks very promising indeed! i am thrilled to see new, better animations, new bodytypes and all that layered stuff, i really am.

but wouldn

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First Sergeant

Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #184353]

Wed, 07 May 2008 03:38

Kaerar is currently offline

Messages:2022
Registered:January 2003
Location: Australia :D

lisac

With so "many" pixels given, it's a matter of perspective. Rendering with anti-aliasing option OFF (and we must do it this way) forces the rendering program to place the object approximately inside the 2-dimensional matrix. This makes the arse look big from one perspective and normal (or even flat) from another.

Can you think of placing 3 apples in 4 cans - only one apple in one can and it's not allowed to split any of the apples? One can will always be empty, you just have to decide which one. So does the rendering engine too - it decides to render additional pixels (and make the arse big), because it can't manipulate with them.

I wonder if I've chosen the right example to explain this :headscratch:

I understand exactly where you are coming from lisac, have the same problem resizing guns. Way I got around it was to do three types of each image. Type 1 was the hard no AA type. Type 2 was soft AA and Type 3 was sharp AA. Then using a combination of the three you got a goo composite image to work with.

Problem is to do that with 20000 sprite images triples your work, so I think a new format for sprites is going to be needed so AA can be used, possibly even having an alpha channel so transparency will work properly.

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Lieutenant

Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #184371]

Wed, 07 May 2008 12:37

lisac is currently offline

Messages:92
Registered:July 2006
Location: Austria

Kaerar

...I think a new format for sprites is going to be needed so AA can be used...

Using AA directly on a 2D sprite is a way too complicated for us right now.

Kaerar

...possibly even having an alpha channel so transparency will work properly.

This is what I hope for. Alpha channels can be easily rendered altogether with the bitmaps (sprites) in any 3D-software, including LW3D. Also, alpha-channel can be used to "simulate" AA in 2D, the results would be more than satisfying.

Shanga

Melons, you should've used melons as example. :headbanger:

Mmmmmm... Watermelons.

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Corporal 1st Class

Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #184376]

Wed, 07 May 2008 13:56

Shanga is currently offline

Messages:3482
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia

I doubt major improvements can be done to JA2 gfx engine. I think for its time was a technology stretched to the limit already. Everyone back then agreed the graphics were revolutionary. But please... pretty please... say I am wrong!!! Someone?... Anyone?

On a serious note, I see the TO-DO list for the graphics engine as following:

1. new body types
2. new vechicles
3. moving vehicles (inside a sector)
4. enhanced colors/details

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Captain

Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #184554]

Fri, 09 May 2008 11:41

lisac is currently offline

Messages:92
Registered:July 2006
Location: Austria

OK, I've rigged Gina, gave her a small short-haired wig and armed her with AK-47:

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/5404/ginatestat2.png

As you can see, the problem with (exact) lighting remains. I'll keep on working on this.

What bothers me more are the proportions of the original model, which is - by the way - completely disproportional. However, such model looks better in game than our Gina (less jagged, more pixels...)

I'm waiting for the feedback...

Edit: Just an example, how it looks like in the game. Don't mind the red hair pixels, these are the result of bad conversion (so the dark red hair pixels take the palette values from "blood" and are being considered as "blood" by engine - not as "hair"). Also, you may notice Gina's breasts show less shadows and bumps due to the lighting problem I've mentioned earlier.

http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/4238/compareah2.png

[Updated on: Fri, 09 May 2008 12:05] by Moderator

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Corporal 1st Class

Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #184558]

Fri, 09 May 2008 12:32

Kaerar is currently offline

Messages:2022
Registered:January 2003
Location: Australia :D

The first thing I see is the difference in the shading (lighting causes it) but it seems in the conversion process the filter is too harsh. If you are using a the nearest neighbour style it won't come out any different. You need a combination of an AA filter over the top of the NN filter. The proportions of the NN are needed and the softer shading of the AA filter solve that issue (thats how I do gun conversions). Maybe the sprite models can be slightly larger too to get a little more detail. Or you could stay slightly disproportionate to get the desired result (though the original female merc always was a little too butch).

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Lieutenant

Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #184559]

Fri, 09 May 2008 12:35

Kindred is currently offline

Messages:121
Registered:September 2006
Location: Australia, baby!

It's a great start. As I am crap at anything that doesn't involve the actual hardware of a PC, I can't offer any suggestions on improving it.

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Sergeant

Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics – Sprites[message #184561]

Fri, 09 May 2008 13:21

Mauser is currently offline

Messages:756
Registered:August 2006
Location: Bavaria - Germany

@ lisac: allright, which of the two is the new one? or is that both pictures? could you perhaps make those pictures somewhat bigger, so one can see the differences and details better? maybe double size?

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First Sergeant

Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics – Sprites[message #184565]

Fri, 09 May 2008 13:57

Lt.Havoc is currently offline

Messages:34
Registered:April 2006
Location: Germany

The left one is the 3D modle, the right one is the orginal sprite.

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Private 1st Class

Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #184569]

Fri, 09 May 2008 14:41

Kaerar is currently offline

Messages:2022
Registered:January 2003
Location: Australia :D

New one is on the left and original is on the right Mauser Wink

Wink

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Lieutenant

Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #184570]

Fri, 09 May 2008 14:41

Kaerar is currently offline

Messages:2022
Registered:January 2003
Location: Australia :D

Ya beat me Havoc lol

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Lieutenant

Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #184589]

Fri, 09 May 2008 15:47

Majek is currently offline

Messages:437
Registered:January 2003
Location: Slovenia

Now go edit one post and use the delete function on the other. I'll delete this one too after that.

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Master Sergeant

Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #184613]

Fri, 09 May 2008 17:29

Kaerar is currently offline

Messages:2022
Registered:January 2003
Location: Australia :D

Can't delete as you replied. Thats gotta be one of the few double posts I have done Sad

Sad

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Lieutenant

Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics – Sprites[message #184618]

Fri, 09 May 2008 17:50

Mauser is currently offline

Messages:756
Registered:August 2006
Location: Bavaria - Germany

moderators to the front!

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First Sergeant

Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #184622]

Fri, 09 May 2008 18:02

Messages:1834
Registered:September 2004
Location: CH

hrmpf. hundreds of spam postings each of them and all of a sudden, a double-post bothers anybody

+1ii

btw Lisac what you say is something that bothers me as well. sometimes, 3d character models look "odd" even though being nicely 3d and all

sometimes, "cute" proportions look "more pictoresque" and also allow for more detail (i might want to mention your own gun graphics for this lisac)

but other than that ja2 speciality, i think Gina comes pretty close to the ja2 model.

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Sergeant Major

Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #184623]

Fri, 09 May 2008 18:21

lisac is currently offline

Messages:92
Registered:July 2006
Location: Austria

Thanks for the feedbacks...

I've continued to work on the matching of colours/shades, and here are the results:

http://img390.imageshack.us/img390/8750/comparesb2.png

Hopefully it looks much better than the old one. I must put all of this on ice during this weekend, sorry. RL bothers me too much...

See ya in a few days.

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Corporal 1st Class

Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #184626]

Fri, 09 May 2008 18:27

Messages:1159
Registered:October 2005
Location: USA

That looks like much nicer Lisac. Smile

Smile

As for the double postings, I don't see anything other than useless off topic comments like usual. Wink

Wink

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Sergeant Major

Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #184700]

Fri, 09 May 2008 23:55

Nixou is currently offline

Messages:56
Registered:January 2008
Location: France

lisac

.

We are entering a new step in JA1.13 developping.

Congratulations Lisac and go on with that quality work.

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Corporal

Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #184702]

Sat, 10 May 2008 00:03

Shanga is currently offline

Messages:3482
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia

Great work mate. Checked the stuff you did for the other big favourite of mine, Fallout, and all I can say is we're damn happy to have you working on JA2.

Make sure you document each step so in the end we can have a full guide on creating new sprites. Heck if it works so well in Lightwave 3d I might get back to modelling. But for now I am happy watching the master at work... shhh.. everyone... quiet...

[Updated on: Sat, 10 May 2008 00:04] by Moderator

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Captain

Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #184724]

Sat, 10 May 2008 10:25

Kaerar is currently offline

Messages:2022
Registered:January 2003
Location: Australia :D

That looks much better. Do you have an ingame fully coloured version to compare?

The GINA pose is a lot better than the original (I know I am gonna have to adjust my view for the new models cos I don't mind the old ones too much except the large male one!)

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Lieutenant

Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #184733]

Sat, 10 May 2008 12:21

Slax is currently offline

Messages:1411
Registered:July 2006
Location: People riding polar bears...

The good thing about this community is that most started projects get finished, eventually.
I'm just so stoked about this. Glee!

I used to dabble in 3d some time ago and learned that Lightwave isn't the way to go.
It's probably fine if you've used it enough but I just want to add that 3DSM or Maya might make some things a bit easier.

At least you'd get better control over shadows/shading Smile

Smile

Animation could also be stepped up a bit. You could "cheat" with 3DSM and use the walking biped function it's got integrated. No need to bother with those those pesky leg animations Very Happy

Very Happy

Oh well. This probably wasn't a very helpful reply, sorry Razz

Razz

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Sergeant Major

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