Home » SIRTECH CLASSICS » Jagged Alliance: Unfinished Business » Tools and Guides Repository (Archive) » Improving Original JA2 graphics
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #184206] Mon, 05 May 2008 19:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Khor1255

 
Messages:1834
Registered:August 2003
Location: Pleasantville, NJ
That might work. If the overlay image could be made to move down or over a pixel or two that might be all it takes to make some reusable.

I think lisac already has something in mind but I haven't read his document he posted yet.
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #184208] Mon, 05 May 2008 20:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
the scorpion

 
Messages:1842
Registered:September 2004
Location: CH
lisac

small comment on your updated design document (on the issue of palettes): the dark red color as refered here

Hair or Unused (???)
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #184234] Tue, 06 May 2008 03:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lisac

 
Messages:92
Registered:July 2006
Location: Austria
Khor1255
Since you are here, what would be a good file or set of files for me to work on?

To be honest, I have no idea :whoknows: My concept foresees that all sprites should be recreated in 3D, then converted to 2D. I'm starting with the female merc sprites tomorrow, so all I could recommend you is to start working on one of the male merc animation sets... However, bear in mind that those animations sets will be remade in 3D and converted to 2D eventually, just like the others.

If you want to provide quick layered sprites for BirdFlu, you could try decompositing one of the existing male merc animations and send it to him - for testing purposes, of course.

BirdFlu
What if we would define "attachment coordinates" for layers or objects in an animation...

Certainly one of the features we need to discuss about. The problem is the merc's position and the way he/she holds the weapon, including all 8 directions. The advantage of using the same weapon layer for all mercs (F, M, S) would be a great deal, however I can't say if this shall be possible without further modeling/animation set creation. My estimation is, that the most of the animation sets (or at least a great part of those) will be available to use the same weapon layer. The same applies to helmet layer, but (most probably) not to armour layer - as BirdFlu said, the different models cause this layer to be more specific than the others.

the scorpion
small comment on your updated design document...

You old nitpicker :bluegrin: Anyway, you're probably right, they wouldn't throw away dozens of colours in the palette just like that. However, the inconsistency of the developers can be seen everywhere - in the source code, filename convention, even the unimplemented features... Nthing to wonder about, they've made mistakes with the palettes too, I'm pretty sure.

Talking about palettes... Question for Birdflu: Can we count on the engine-driven recoloured palettes in the "new layered sprite system" or not? In other words, is it going to be possible to recolour a layer in the fashion the whole sprites were recoloured in the original game or not?

This is important for us to take the proper approach with the creation of the new sprites... I guess.

Thanks goes to the scorp for pointing out the issue with the palettes :newstuff:

Schedule for tomorrow: I'll make a new female model and set up the default scene in LW3D (camera, lights, zoom, aspect etc...), try to rig the character (set up bones, inverse kinematics) and eventually try to make an animation set.

Wish me luck :ok:

[Updated on: Tue, 06 May 2008 03:06] by Moderator

Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #184237] Tue, 06 May 2008 03:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Khor1255

 
Messages:1834
Registered:August 2003
Location: Pleasantville, NJ
You completely lost me there. I guess I am going to have to wait for you to do it.

The way I see it, all we have to do is take existing sprites and erase the parts that do not apply to each layer.

For instance:

For the base animation you would only erase the gun (this would be sort of trick because not only would you have to use background colour to erase any of the weapon that went outside of the sprite's silhouette but you would have to erase the weapon that overlapped the body with appropriate body shade.

No big deal but way more involved than the other layers.

Birdflu just wants the base layer and the accompanying weapon layer to make his tests.

I get the feeling if I do it my way and you do it another it could end up being a hassle on his end.

That is the last thing I want to happen here.

Oh, and good luck.

[Updated on: Tue, 06 May 2008 03:31] by Moderator

Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics – Sprites[message #184242] Tue, 06 May 2008 04:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Navetsea

 
Messages:12
Registered:July 2005
Location: Asia
Hi,

I'm so excited to see this idea close to be realized,
BTW here I tried to quickly edit the sprite with pencil tool in Photoshop
in the psd file, I made them in layers.
I added the knee protector in the same color as the boots
and there is also vest
and helmet.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b144/Navetsea/vest_helmet_pad.png

Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #184256] Tue, 06 May 2008 11:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
PFM

 
Messages:22
Registered:July 2006
Location: Czech Republic
Navetsea
Hi,

I'm so excited to see this idea close to be realized,
BTW here I tried to quickly edit the sprite with pencil tool in Photoshop
in the psd file, I made them in layers.
I added the knee protector in the same color as the boots
and there is also vest
and helmet.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b144/Navetsea/vest_helmet_pad.png



GREAT!!! Now repeat it 13 times(average) per "side animation" times 8 (directions) and you will get one and only one animations. 13 x 8 = 104
Multipli this number with diferent stances (3) and diferent weapons (pistol, two pistols, rifle = 3) and you will get 104 x 3 x 3 = 936 So come back in 5 years when you finish it Very Happy

no offence. It's great to see lot of enthusiasm but your approach is worthless trying. That's why lisac is doing 3D -> 2D animations And we are close only for testing! Hopefully it will work

btw I think we should improve ingame sprites and not only "paint" them. Am I right lisac? Surprised

[Updated on: Tue, 06 May 2008 11:59] by Moderator

Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #184269] Tue, 06 May 2008 13:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lisac

 
Messages:92
Registered:July 2006
Location: Austria
Hello Navetsea,

the pixel-art you've made looks fantastic, however I'm trying to automate the whole process and let the machine do the hard job for us. Generally, it's good to have you around here anyway, because we will need people working on the 2D sprites later (adjusting, cropping etc.)

PMF
btw I think we should improve ingame sprites and not only "paint" them

Painting the sprites is an improvement nonetheless.

What we're going to try is to bring the whole thing to a new level :welder:
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #184272] Tue, 06 May 2008 15:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shanga

 
Messages:3526
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia
Speaking as someone who experienced the pain of modifying graphics for UC, pixel by pixel sometimes, it's not worth it.

All animations are actually frame-by-frame exports from a 3D program, as I later discovered (when I got into 3D stuff myself). Such program allows you to export BMP files of each frame. I dont remember if they used Maya or 3D Studio, but something around those parts. To modify the animation you would need the original 3d model and a bit of info of the settings they used (although they can be guessed by trial and error) such as lighting and camera position.

At one point I was able to replicate a model of a vehicle animation quite decently, but hit the wall when we discovered that STI's were at least two kind (aka static tiles and animations). The tools we had back then supported only static STIs so the project was scraped. You see... you can have all the 900 frames ready, but if you dont have a tool to re-assemble them properly into an animated STI all it's for nothing.

Bottom line, thumbs up lisac, thats the way to go! :rulez:


QUESTION: I've been away for a couple of years so I am a bit behind... has the STI/JSD animation been cracked?

[Updated on: Tue, 06 May 2008 15:47] by Moderator



Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #184274] Tue, 06 May 2008 16:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kaerar

 
Messages:2090
Registered:January 2003
Location: Australia :D
Dunno about JSD but multiframe STI's are possible with STI-Edit. Whether there is a special animation version I have no idea but I believe Bimbo had a multi-import version of STI-Edit to help with the anims. Which I happen to have a copy of and is called Project1. If anyone needs it just post and I'll upload to Kermi's FTP.


Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #184276] Tue, 06 May 2008 16:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lockie

 
Messages:3965
Registered:February 2006
Location: Scotland
was just reading a post about you , ( I assume ) about racing cars . How did that go / Exciting stuff I suppose :redracer:


Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #184279] Tue, 06 May 2008 16:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kaerar

 
Messages:2090
Registered:January 2003
Location: Australia :D
Last time I had the funds to race was in 2004, but I am building a car up for next year. It was exciting and a feeling I couldn't shove away into the back of my consciousness any more Smile
Did alright for my first time out in a full race situation that wasn't karting though. Got 7th form 15th on the grid. Was in 4th but made a minor mistake which lost me 3 places. Ah well you gotta learn somehow Wink

Where was that post cos I dunno where that would have been :s


Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #184281] Tue, 06 May 2008 17:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lockie

 
Messages:3965
Registered:February 2006
Location: Scotland
In private forum mate , you privates don't get to see it , only us nco's and above :biglaugh:

the secret life of kaerar ehh Very Happy , good on you mate , would love to try racing. ..... :blah:


Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #184284] Tue, 06 May 2008 17:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kaerar

 
Messages:2090
Registered:January 2003
Location: Australia :D
Its great fun, I kinda want to do it for a living though rather than just the enjoyable aspect Wink

Find I'm a bit of a fish out of water when it comes to normal jobs.


Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #184289] Tue, 06 May 2008 17:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shanga

 
Messages:3526
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia

I know about STI-edit, but try updating 900 frames with it.. Very Happy
I was wondering if anyone cracked the code so to crate a tool that automatically assembles animations accepted by the game.

To explain a bit... in the old days we vaguely knew/assumed that STIs and JSDs handle all animations. I at least didnt have the chance to read any info about how much of the animation is hardcoded and how much can be externalised. In the end, editing single tilesets was quite easy with STI-edit, but once you got into animated stuff, you had a lot of probs.

The best way to do it would be, imho, to get rid of the damn JSD and STI files and make the engine read from external files that can be easily moddded. IF thats not possible, at least make a tool that assembles BMP frames back into a valid animation.


Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #184290] Tue, 06 May 2008 17:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lockie

 
Messages:3965
Registered:February 2006
Location: Scotland
sorry for being off topic here folks , cheers kaerar . :wave:


Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #184294] Tue, 06 May 2008 18:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Khor1255

 
Messages:1834
Registered:August 2003
Location: Pleasantville, NJ
I never had a problem assemebling an animation.

It would definately be cool to have a tool that automatically extracted all the frames of an .sti to .bmp format then 'reassembled' them back to .sti format when you were ready.

Because all you need is multiframed .stis extracted frame by frame to .bmp. Do your modifacations to each frame then load it back frame by frame to .sti edit remembering to check the key frames in the right places (at the beginning of each of the 8 directions the animation starts in).

The real work is the frame by frame drawing. I can't imagine a program that could automate this part but if there is such a program whooo freakin' hoo! I might even break down any buy me that little miracle.
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #184297] Tue, 06 May 2008 19:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shanga

 
Messages:3526
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia
Khor1255

The real work is the frame by frame drawing.

Nah... you dont draw each frame. Unless you're working on JA3 and have a strict deadline to finish the game in the next billion years. :devilaugh:
I have a feeling any serious 3D tool has that feature. You just animate the subject and export each frame and presto! you have 900 frames. I haven't been doing any 3d modelling for years now, but I am pretty sure. The hardest trick is to match the hardcoded colors and exact isometric stance, but a pro would easily do it.

Khor1255

Do your modifacations to each frame then load it back frame by frame to .sti

Not feasible when you are faced with hundreds of frames. Again, the idea is to allow people to make their own models, not only alter ready-made ones. Editing STIs on a huge scale is not a thing for the weak of heart. That comes from someone who spent half a year on some models only to have the game spit them back into my face.

I do hope the knowledge in this area has evolved a bit more than 3 years ago. Otherwise I think we need to start a JA2 v1.14 soonish Very Happy

[Updated on: Tue, 06 May 2008 19:40] by Moderator



Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #184305] Tue, 06 May 2008 20:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lisac

 
Messages:92
Registered:July 2006
Location: Austria
OK people, I want to introduce GINA, our newest fancy 3D testing model... She'll be posing, acting and stunting for us in the weeks to come. She's bald ATM, but I assure you she can wear any wig you can think of. Also, she'll be wearing different rags, protective gear and operate various weapons untill her contract expires...

Say hello to Gina!

http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/4725/comparexn9.png

Now onto lighting and rigging the model...
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics – Sprites[message #184306] Tue, 06 May 2008 20:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lt.Havoc

 
Messages:34
Registered:April 2006
Location: Germany

Guess that brings us back to the topic "Do we need a graphic engine change?"

Edit: forget what I said, it brings us back to the topic: "Is lisac aswome or is he aswome?"

[Updated on: Tue, 06 May 2008 20:32] by Moderator

Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #184307] Tue, 06 May 2008 20:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
the scorpion

 
Messages:1842
Registered:September 2004
Location: CH
Shanga

I know about STI-edit, but try updating 900 frames with it.. Very Happy


900 frames is fairly kiddy-stuff. That'd be less than 9 average animations. i've done the (almost) entire big male bodytype ;-D
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #184309] Tue, 06 May 2008 20:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Slax

 
Messages:1439
Registered:July 2006
Location: People riding polar bears...
lisac
OK people, I want to introduce GINA, our newest fancy 3D testing model... She'll be posing, acting and stunting for us in the weeks to come. She's bald ATM, but I assure you she can wear any wig you can think of. Also, she'll be wearing different rags, protective gear and operate various weapons untill her contract expires...

Say hello to Gina!

http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/4725/comparexn9.png

Now onto lighting and rigging the model...


Here comes the revolution Very Happy

Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #184312] Tue, 06 May 2008 21:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lisac

 
Messages:92
Registered:July 2006
Location: Austria
I tried to determine the proper lighting for the model and there are the first results...

http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/6999/ginamultigt6.png

I tried to copy/paste the new sprite into an existing STI, just to try it out combined with the JA2 standard f_merc palette. It works fabulous :welder:

[Updated on: Tue, 06 May 2008 21:19] by Moderator

Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #184313] Tue, 06 May 2008 21:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RoWa21

 
Messages:2047
Registered:October 2005
Location: Austria
@lisac: Very well done. Keep up the good work!


Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #184314] Tue, 06 May 2008 21:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Marlboro Man

 
Messages:1268
Registered:October 2005
Location: USA
Neat! :ok:


But is she anatomically correct though? :blah:


Very Happy


Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #184318] Tue, 06 May 2008 21:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Khor1255

 
Messages:1834
Registered:August 2003
Location: Pleasantville, NJ
Yeah, all over the place.

I think our dear sweet little sprite has been to Hollywood and had some 'work' done.

Anyway, I don't know anything about 3d animating so I'll sit this one out.

edit

Baby got back.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[Updated on: Tue, 06 May 2008 21:58] by Moderator

Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #184325] Tue, 06 May 2008 23:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shanga

 
Messages:3526
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia
@scorpion - I've edited hundreds of frames by hand too. But us Haywire types are only the exception to the rule. Razz

@lisac - here's a pro when you need one! Can I ask what you're using for 3d modelling?


Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #184339] Wed, 07 May 2008 01:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lisac

 
Messages:92
Registered:July 2006
Location: Austria
Lightwave 3D

I'm gonna need some more time to rig the character, cause I've forgot most of the principles of character animation. Also, I've lost awesome video tutorials about it a while ago and can't find it now... :wb:

Never mind, I'll come up with something already.
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #184343] Wed, 07 May 2008 01:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kaerar

 
Messages:2090
Registered:January 2003
Location: Australia :D
Is it just me or does GINA have a really big arse?

lol

I was thinking for models is there any way models from contempory games may be used to help expedite the process?

@Shanga - Project1 had the ability to batch add files. It was a little buggy, but it works well and was designed for animation use.


Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #184346] Wed, 07 May 2008 01:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
BirdFlu

 
Messages:451
Registered:September 2007
Location: Lampukistan
Khor1255
It would definately be cool to have a tool that automatically extracted all the frames of an .sti to .bmp format then 'reassembled' them back to .sti format when you were ready.

Extracting is quite simple, but reassembling could fail if after the modification the palettes are not the same for all sub-images. And you lose
the displacement values for the sub-images, unless you save them somewhere too. You could write the modified images into the old file, but this would
only work if the resolution has not changed.

Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #184347] Wed, 07 May 2008 01:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shanga

 
Messages:3526
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia
About models from other games - you would need a "importable" model so to say, compatible with Lightwave... and due to the way JA2 is structured I think it would eventually take as much time to tweak that to work in JA2 as you would making new chars from scratch. Lisac's work is groundbreaking due to the facts I've mentioned. Once he refreshes his 3d skills exporting frames is a kid's play.

Regarding Project1, don't think I remember it... I might have tested it but in my time all tools had nasty bugs due to the experimental nature. Crashes and lost work were our middle names. If it works so nicely as you say, we're in business! What I can say? Fingers crossed...

Off to play 1.13 for the first time and be awed...

Quote:
Is it just me or does GINA have a really big arse?


The man said we can compensate that by using really big wigs... :venus:

[Updated on: Wed, 07 May 2008 01:54] by Moderator



Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #184348] Wed, 07 May 2008 01:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lisac

 
Messages:92
Registered:July 2006
Location: Austria
Kaerar
Is it just me or does GINA have a really big arse?

With so "many" pixels given, it's a matter of perspective. Rendering with anti-aliasing option OFF (and we must do it this way) forces the rendering program to place the object approximately inside the 2-dimensional matrix. This makes the arse look big from one perspective and normal (or even flat) from another.

Can you think of placing 3 apples in 4 cans - only one apple in one can and it's not allowed to split any of the apples? One can will always be empty, you just have to decide which one. So does the rendering engine too - it decides to render additional pixels (and make the arse big), because it can't manipulate with them.

I wonder if I've chosen the right example to explain this :headscratch:
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #184350] Wed, 07 May 2008 01:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shanga

 
Messages:3526
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia
Melons, you should've used melons as example. :headbanger:

[Updated on: Wed, 07 May 2008 01:56] by Moderator



Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics – Sprites[message #184352] Wed, 07 May 2008 03:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mauser

 
Messages:799
Registered:August 2006
Location: Bavaria - Germany
well guys, this looks very promising indeed! i am thrilled to see new, better animations, new bodytypes and all that layered stuff, i really am.

but wouldn

☆★GL★☆
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #184353] Wed, 07 May 2008 03:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kaerar

 
Messages:2090
Registered:January 2003
Location: Australia :D
lisac
With so "many" pixels given, it's a matter of perspective. Rendering with anti-aliasing option OFF (and we must do it this way) forces the rendering program to place the object approximately inside the 2-dimensional matrix. This makes the arse look big from one perspective and normal (or even flat) from another.

Can you think of placing 3 apples in 4 cans - only one apple in one can and it's not allowed to split any of the apples? One can will always be empty, you just have to decide which one. So does the rendering engine too - it decides to render additional pixels (and make the arse big), because it can't manipulate with them.

I wonder if I've chosen the right example to explain this :headscratch:

I understand exactly where you are coming from lisac, have the same problem resizing guns. Way I got around it was to do three types of each image. Type 1 was the hard no AA type. Type 2 was soft AA and Type 3 was sharp AA. Then using a combination of the three you got a goo composite image to work with.

Problem is to do that with 20000 sprite images triples your work, so I think a new format for sprites is going to be needed so AA can be used, possibly even having an alpha channel so transparency will work properly.


Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #184371] Wed, 07 May 2008 12:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lisac

 
Messages:92
Registered:July 2006
Location: Austria
Kaerar
...I think a new format for sprites is going to be needed so AA can be used...

Using AA directly on a 2D sprite is a way too complicated for us right now.

Kaerar
...possibly even having an alpha channel so transparency will work properly.

This is what I hope for. Alpha channels can be easily rendered altogether with the bitmaps (sprites) in any 3D-software, including LW3D. Also, alpha-channel can be used to "simulate" AA in 2D, the results would be more than satisfying.

Shanga
Melons, you should've used melons as example. :headbanger:

Mmmmmm... Watermelons.
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #184376] Wed, 07 May 2008 13:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shanga

 
Messages:3526
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia

I doubt major improvements can be done to JA2 gfx engine. I think for its time was a technology stretched to the limit already. Everyone back then agreed the graphics were revolutionary. But please... pretty please... say I am wrong!!! Someone?... Anyone?

On a serious note, I see the TO-DO list for the graphics engine as following:

1. new body types
2. new vechicles
3. moving vehicles (inside a sector)
4. enhanced colors/details





Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #184554] Fri, 09 May 2008 11:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lisac

 
Messages:92
Registered:July 2006
Location: Austria
OK, I've rigged Gina, gave her a small short-haired wig and armed her with AK-47:

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/5404/ginatestat2.png

As you can see, the problem with (exact) lighting remains. I'll keep on working on this.

What bothers me more are the proportions of the original model, which is - by the way - completely disproportional. However, such model looks better in game than our Gina (less jagged, more pixels...)

I'm waiting for the feedback...

Edit: Just an example, how it looks like in the game. Don't mind the red hair pixels, these are the result of bad conversion (so the dark red hair pixels take the palette values from "blood" and are being considered as "blood" by engine - not as "hair"). Also, you may notice Gina's breasts show less shadows and bumps due to the lighting problem I've mentioned earlier.

http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/4238/compareah2.png

[Updated on: Fri, 09 May 2008 12:05] by Moderator

Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #184558] Fri, 09 May 2008 12:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kaerar

 
Messages:2090
Registered:January 2003
Location: Australia :D
The first thing I see is the difference in the shading (lighting causes it) but it seems in the conversion process the filter is too harsh. If you are using a the nearest neighbour style it won't come out any different. You need a combination of an AA filter over the top of the NN filter. The proportions of the NN are needed and the softer shading of the AA filter solve that issue (thats how I do gun conversions). Maybe the sprite models can be slightly larger too to get a little more detail. Or you could stay slightly disproportionate to get the desired result (though the original female merc always was a little too butch).


Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #184559] Fri, 09 May 2008 12:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kindred

 
Messages:122
Registered:September 2006
Location: Australia, baby!
It's a great start. As I am crap at anything that doesn't involve the actual hardware of a PC, I can't offer any suggestions on improving it.
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics – Sprites[message #184561] Fri, 09 May 2008 13:21 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Mauser

 
Messages:799
Registered:August 2006
Location: Bavaria - Germany
@ lisac: allright, which of the two is the new one? or is that both pictures? could you perhaps make those pictures somewhat bigger, so one can see the differences and details better? maybe double size?

☆★GL★☆
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