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Pistols[message #169182] Mon, 31 December 2007 22:12 Go to next message
chairman_meow
Messages:3
Registered:December 2007
Location: Vancouver, Canada
I would really like to see the usefulness of pistols increased in JA3. In JA2 they're barely useful at the beginning of the game, and just take up an inventory slot in the endgame but I love the idea of the pistol as a viable backup weapon. My thought is that accuracy and damage for pistols and smgs should be pumped up at extreme close ranges, and drop off significantly at longer ranges. Rifles and LMGs should get an accuracy and aiming penalty at close range or indoors to reflect the fact that large weapons don't do as well in close quarters combat. I'd like to see gameplay where if your character is surprised at close range it makes sense to drop the sniper rifle and draw the pistol. Or if you're preparing to clear that room, a small SMG or shotgun will do better than a FN-FAL. Any thoughts?
Re: Pistols[message #169225] Tue, 01 January 2008 12:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lockie

 
Messages:3965
Registered:February 2006
Location: Scotland
i know i'd rather have an fn than any pistol, also wouldn't you lose time dropping your rifle and drawing a pistol ? btw , great name :biglaugh: :blackcat: and welcome to the forum


Re: Pistols[message #169227] Tue, 01 January 2008 12:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
afp

 
Messages:77
Registered:November 2007
chairman_meow
I would really like to see the usefulness of pistols increased in JA3. In JA2 they're barely useful at the beginning of the game, and just take up an inventory slot in the endgame but I love the idea of the pistol as a viable backup weapon. My thought is that accuracy and damage for pistols and smgs should be pumped up at extreme close ranges, and drop off significantly at longer ranges. Rifles and LMGs should get an accuracy and aiming penalty at close range or indoors to reflect the fact that large weapons don't do as well in close quarters combat. I'd like to see gameplay where if your character is surprised at close range it makes sense to drop the sniper rifle and draw the pistol. Or if you're preparing to clear that room, a small SMG or shotgun will do better than a FN-FAL. Any thoughts?


It's hard to simulate this in JA2, because of the calculations needed to check if you aim an indoor or outdoor target. But something else is already done, just it should be improved a bit:
SMG's and shotguns should have definitelly LESS action points to fire than assault rifles. They already have sometimes, but this difference is not clear enough. If you're going to room clearing, you should prefere MP7 instead an AK because of less action point for using it. For example, if you have 10 points for burst fire for an MP7, you rather prefere to fire two bursts per turn instead a single burst from an AK of 15 AP. That would simulate handleness good enough.

Pistols and machine pistols should be indeed used as side weapons, by having small AP to use, so for example when you main rifle can't fire anymore because you only have 5 more AP, then you turn to pistols and maybe fire the final shot with it. Something like when the ammo from the main weapons is over while in combat, and you quickly switch to side weapon.


EDIT: I forgot to mention that the SMGs should ussually have a better burst accuracy inside effective range, mainly because of the smaller round than an assault rifle.
Re: Pistols[message #169257] Tue, 01 January 2008 20:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DNA from the Lowlands

 
Messages:340
Registered:July 2003
Perhaps an idea.
As is now, to rotate takes 1ap-standing/2-kneeling/6-prone
It is only dependant on the Merc-stance.

Perhaps this can be made to be dependant on the weapon at hand as well.
Making short weapons cost less APs than long arms.
Then the in-building engagements would favour short-weapons.
Re: Pistols[message #169272] Wed, 02 January 2008 01:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Starwalker

 
Messages:769
Registered:October 2005
Location: Hannover, Germany
DNA from the Lowlands
Perhaps an idea.
As is now, to rotate takes 1ap-standing/2-kneeling/6-prone
It is only dependant on the Merc-stance.

Perhaps this can be made to be dependant on the weapon at hand as well.
Making short weapons cost less APs than long arms.
Then the in-building engagements would favour short-weapons.

Handling of the gun is already included in the AP for single shots, thus with your idea we would either need to re-do the whole AP-calculation (to 'uncouple' the handling points) or the longguns are penalized twice.


Re: Pistols[message #169286] Wed, 02 January 2008 05:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Khor1255

 
Messages:1834
Registered:August 2003
Location: Pleasantville, NJ
Playing around with the draw costs seem to simulate the advantage you get with a pistol pretty well. The main advantage a pistol has is speed of target aquisition. This is an AP matter and luckily we have a few fields we can tweak to make huge differences in the AP handling of different weapons.

I like afp's ideas on this subject quite a bit. We just need to (and luckily can) fine tune different weapons to fit our vision of the inherant advantages and disadvantages of each weapon.

My wish is that the developers of Ja3 take a good look at what the 1.13 team has done to glean ideas of how to improve Ja2s system.
Re: Pistols[message #169292] Wed, 02 January 2008 10:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
afp

 
Messages:77
Registered:November 2007
Stay tuned, I'm preparing a consistent system, that will make weapons fits their real needs Wink
Re: Pistols[message #169417] Thu, 03 January 2008 14:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Surunveri
Messages:4
Registered:January 2008
.

[Updated on: Sat, 19 May 2012 16:59] by Moderator

mm[message #169422] Thu, 03 January 2008 14:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Surunveri
Messages:4
Registered:January 2008
.

[Updated on: Sat, 19 May 2012 17:00] by Moderator

Re: mm[message #176560] Tue, 26 February 2008 03:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
nikkimond
Messages:4
Registered:September 2007
Brigade E5 modeled pistols so well, you needed to have a side arm if you wanted to come out on top when clearing rooms in close quarters. Even with weapon drawn the pistol shooter always had the shortest prepare time over a rifle guy so pistols fire first. Add to that the loss of initiative once that 9 milly hits your vest. Allowing a second pull of the trigger.

But thats in a real time pausable game. In a turn based game time don't mean squat because its all AP.
Re: mm[message #177002] Sat, 01 March 2008 20:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Surunveri
Messages:4
Registered:January 2008
.

[Updated on: Sat, 19 May 2012 17:00] by Moderator

Re: mm[message #177039] Sun, 02 March 2008 02:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Khor1255

 
Messages:1834
Registered:August 2003
Location: Pleasantville, NJ
Maybe in some turn based games this would be impossible to model but in Ja2 you can make pistols decidedly faster by adjusting draw cost. The only thing I would like to see changed here is a difference between close range draw cost (which pistols are remarkably faster) and long range draw cost (where the numbers much closer to each other).
I would also love to see a real draw cost for when you take an item out of your inventory. This would be an area where pistols could truly shine.

Re: mm[message #178552] Wed, 19 March 2008 16:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lockie

 
Messages:3965
Registered:February 2006
Location: Scotland
yup , I've long thought that interrupt isn't 'real' enough . Say you have an interrupt on a blackshirt , you then have oppotunity to go into inventory and pull out your most damaging weapon . now , say you had a sniper rifle in hand at int. , you can change for caws or assault weapon without penalty .Has to be a cost for going into backpack or changing weaps , cause in actuality b/sh would ram his gun up yer chin and let rip . :skull:


Re: mm[message #178946] Sun, 23 March 2008 21:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JohnnySideburns

 
Messages:19
Registered:September 2007
while engaged in hand to hand you shouldnt be alowed to use a two handed weapon at least not against a guy with martialarts skill. I mean you have to be an imbecile if you close the distance to an oponent only to let him pull up a big gun between you... unless maybe if its a guy who does teakwondo or a boxer with long range who likes to keep his distance, and you shouldnt be alowed to move out of close combat to get a propper shot, without the other guy getting a free hit in your back on the way...

also single action revolvers should have an even quicker short range draw time than pistols
Re: Pistols[message #190706] Mon, 14 July 2008 09:56 Go to previous message
MikeT
Messages:7
Registered:July 2008
Location: Brisbane, Australia
afp
chairman_meow
I would really like to see the usefulness of pistols increased in JA3. In JA2 they're barely useful at the beginning of the game, and just take up an inventory slot in the endgame but I love the idea of the pistol as a viable backup weapon. My thought is that accuracy and damage for pistols and smgs should be pumped up at extreme close ranges, and drop off significantly at longer ranges. Rifles and LMGs should get an accuracy and aiming penalty at close range or indoors to reflect the fact that large weapons don't do as well in close quarters combat. I'd like to see gameplay where if your character is surprised at close range it makes sense to drop the sniper rifle and draw the pistol. Or if you're preparing to clear that room, a small SMG or shotgun will do better than a FN-FAL. Any thoughts?


It's hard to simulate this in JA2, because of the calculations needed to check if you aim an indoor or outdoor target.


If they were building a new engine from the ground up, all they've got to do is include a new function which takes into account the characters proximity to objects and where they are in relation to the character. Items such as desks and filing cabinets would have a penalty attached to them when the character is standing immediately next to them, because any objects around the character would impede his ability to move and aim his weapon freely. The same can be applied to tight corridors and such. For example, if there's a space hallway that is one space wide, then clearly someone who has a long weapon such as a LMG or assault rifle will need to raise their weapon to turn around before being able to level the sights again.

I'm no programmer, but I can't imagine that this would be incredibly difficult to program if it was being put into a new engine. First person shooters have been doing things like this for ages.

[Updated on: Mon, 14 July 2008 09:57] by Moderator

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