Home » MODDING HQ 1.13 » The Job Board » Project "v1.14 Stable Modding Platform" Looking for Coders and Modders
Re: Project "v1.13 Stable Modding Platform" Looking for Coders and Betatesters[message #196494] Wed, 17 September 2008 13:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kriplo

 
Messages:261
Registered:February 2008
Location: Zagreb - Croatia
Thank you guys on warm welcome, hoping I can prove myself worthy.

First there is list of my fixes and changes what is done till the latest version currently on SVN. Wrote this as remember for more details I need to check in code. And in code are probably more changes then is listed below. Unfortunately didn
Re: Project "v1.13 Stable Modding Platform" Looking for Coders and Betatesters[message #196496] Wed, 17 September 2008 15:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Starwalker

 
Messages:769
Registered:October 2005
Location: Hannover, Germany
Kriplo
Ordinary smoke gas now make little damage to your energy if you not wearing gas mask (it was implemented in wildfire and I think that ok well try you breading smoke Smile

That really depends on the type of smoke generated. Early on smoke grenades used some chlorine-based stuff, which was really unhealthy to be in.
Today's smoke is not as hazardous as the stuff from back then.

So I would not call your change a necessary 'bug'-fix Wink


Re: Project "v1.13 Stable Modding Platform" Looking for Coders and Betatesters[message #196508] Wed, 17 September 2008 18:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kriplo

 
Messages:261
Registered:February 2008
Location: Zagreb - Croatia
Sorry mistakenly I put this as fix, actually this it very small change which I'd like much from wildfire.
About breathing chlorine-based stuff I have no experience, but don't trust even a bit for anything what pharmaceutics industry has to said about healthy Wink
Re: Project "v1.13 Stable Modding Platform" Looking for Coders and Betatesters[message #196519] Wed, 17 September 2008 22:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Khor1255

 
Messages:1834
Registered:August 2003
Location: Pleasantville, NJ
I think people would breath a sigh of relief if someone took a look at the editor. Noone seems to want to do it much and there really are some very cool things you could do for the game if the editor was more sensible and working better.

It is true that it has always been fairly unstable in so far as when you are working with it you get unexpected assertion failures and or downright lockups pretty regularly. The most buggy parts of the editor seem to be when placing cliffs or road tiles. With cliffs you can end up with a situation where your map looks like it has ripped apart along a grid line and becomes completely unworkable at that point. Really nasty stuff that. With roads it usually ends up with assertion failures that will not allow you to save the map until you erase the offending road tiles. Most of us that work with the editor are kind of used to this stuff but I'm sure it puts off potential new users (in fact I have heard many people give up on the editor and in effect modding in general because of this).

My idea for the cliff fix is to simply have cliffs behave like wall/roof tiles but be impervious to breaching. I know you can in reality blow a cliff up with dynamite but for game purposes if cliffs acted the same way as walls it would cause all kinds of confusion. What would be a good solution is if the cliff could be treated as a wall with however much area it covered be treated as roof tiles. Any connecting cliff or even roof tile would also be considered on this 'level' so you could have mercs climbing up cliffs but also make some cliffs behave like arched roofs where the merc could not climb on top.

This sounds like wish list stuff but I think it might prove to be a major fix for one of the most annoying parts of the map editor.

But as far as an outright wish, I hope to see all the tiles available for use in any map. In other words, instead of tiles grouped into sets have the maps reference them by their tile name and not placement within a set. Of course some backward compatability with existing maps would have to be worked out so I am not sure if this is even possible.

At the very least, if you could make the editor less prone to lockups, assertion failures and general glitchyness it would really move the project forward not just for players but for people trying to create new worlds for this awesome game.

I am currently testing a version of the editor ChrisL has sent me that may have fixed the hostile map entry problem I talked about yesterday. I need to make a few maps with this to be satisfied that it really works but all signs are that he may have fixed this game breaking problem the 1.13 map editor used to cause.

Your changes sound promising. The focus of this section - as i understand it - is to make a version of the 1.13 that is as stable and moddable as possible. This is why it was suggested we even have a separate version. To that end I hope you are keeping as much documentation about the changes you make as possible. I think you already said it is present in the code so forgive me for being over cautious. But what I am trying to say here is while innovations are great most modders would prefer they only be introduced after being thoroughly tested rather than just tested to one or two people's satisfaction. This is to insure that unseen problems like the nightmare we had with the editor don't come as a complete surprise to whatever coder makes the change but also there seems to be a condition in all 1.13 mods where when you get pretty far into the game it becomes almost unplayable due to lockups, crashes, and other constant annoyances.

To this end I would highly recommend you play a mod like Renegade Republik or anything based on the 1.13 so you might be able to guess what is causing this condition. It may be as simple as something not registering correctly in the save game code (as if that is really simple) but may be something or a group of things not experienced by people who just play the vanilla campaign.

Forgive my code illiteracy here. I can only make guesses. But in whatever capacity you decide to enter the project welcome again and good luck. I really hope you take a look at fixing the things that are breaking mods. We all want to build on the 1.13 but at this point very few still have any confidence left in it as a modding platform. This should definitely be fixed.
Re: Project "v1.13 Stable Modding Platform" Looking for Coders and Betatesters[message #196526] Thu, 18 September 2008 00:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shanga

 
Messages:3526
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia
@Khor - the first part is goes well beyond the scope of the editor. It affects the JSD structure of the tilesets. I think "fixing" the editor would mean more finding the cause for asertion failures and fixing it than hacking in new features (which in turn can cause more instabiliy). But you're right, the instability issues of the editor are a major turn off.




Re: Project "v1.13 Stable Modding Platform" Looking for Coders and Betatesters[message #196527] Thu, 18 September 2008 00:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Khor1255

 
Messages:1834
Registered:August 2003
Location: Pleasantville, NJ
Right. Fixing it is far more important. I just thought if it is a problem that requires a lot of digging or changing it might be better to kill two birds with one stone and have climbable cliffs a lot of us wanted.

But your instincts are right on. This is the crux of the issue. New features (at least for this version) should only be introduced after thorough beta testing in a mod environment. At least then the possibility of completely surprises drops significantly.

I thought if other more stable code could just be borrowed to fix the cliff issue than that might provide an easy fix while also presenting a cool new option for mappers.

But, come to think of it there are some rather glitchy things even with roof tiles so the best solution is to look at it and see what is causing the problem. Once understood, I guess just making cliffs climbable would be an easy tweak.

You are right Shanga. That is the better way to go.
Re: Project "v1.13 Stable Modding Platform" Looking for Coders and Betatesters[message #196528] Thu, 18 September 2008 00:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shanga

 
Messages:3526
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia
It's a good idea, just not concerning the editor fix. Russians for example have done tremendous advances on this area (remember the guy who was posting a while ago how to make trenches?).

The editor just assembles the map parts. But the properties of these parts are controlled on individual level (they have the aforementioned matching JSD properties file). Of course, bad JSDs can crash the editor and the game. But somehow I have a feeling the road problem is not caused necessarely by "bad" tilesets. I'd place the blame on overlapping tiles and the brute version of the editor (instead of checking for errors and/or preventing bad mapping, it goes down in flames).

[Updated on: Thu, 18 September 2008 00:53] by Moderator



Re: Project "v1.13 Stable Modding Platform" Looking for Coders and Betatesters[message #196529] Thu, 18 September 2008 01:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Khor1255

 
Messages:1834
Registered:August 2003
Location: Pleasantville, NJ
Right!

And the same may be the case for the cliffs. The editor is such a delicate little daisy of a tool isn't it? Any effort to make it more robust or to certainly check itself against illegal applications (in the case of applications that might make entry into hostile sectors near impossible, or roofs to be ignored in some cases, or that really screwy bug some people have had when they map over a water area and the player seems to be swimming through the grass on the final map).

but since jsd structures and maps are so closely related I thought they might be worth looking into as well.

But - right again - fixing the base editor or especially making it a more forgiving tool should be top priority. I think you are right that the editor now fails to completely remove any former action. You see this especially when you remove items from maps yet still have 'ghost' appearances of them. But perhaps more seriously, the editor acts as if you are trying to put too much into a gridno when you add a road on top of the 'wrong' kind of ground texture for instance.

These things are definitely the first that should be looked at since they affect anyone even casually using the editor. The rest can certainly wait and I am again putting the cart way before the horse here but I guess I get sort of greedy when I hear anyone express any interest in working on some part of the project that might make creating for the game better.
Re: Project "v1.13 Stable Modding Platform" Looking for Coders and Betatesters[message #196548] Thu, 18 September 2008 10:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kriplo

 
Messages:261
Registered:February 2008
Location: Zagreb - Croatia
Yesterday after creating Debug project for MapEditor (currently is only MapEditor as release version in vcproj ???) briefly go through editing, and after few minutes was there was plenty, lets says,
Re: Project "v1.13 Stable Modding Platform" Looking for Coders and Betatesters[message #196551] Thu, 18 September 2008 10:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
shed23

 
Messages:131
Registered:October 2004
Location: U.K.
Shanga
I'd place the blame on overlapping tiles and the brute version of the editor (instead of checking for errors and/or preventing bad mapping, it goes down in flames).



Exactly what I found with roads, and assumed the same for cliffs.

However, cliffs seem to cause a far more 'serious' glitch with the 'tearing' effect.

A while back, I messed about creating very simple road tiles, each one being a uniform colour and solid isometric 'square',(simply overwrote existing), had some troubles with JSDs' but they worked without assertion or general placement failures.
However, there were occasions, that if roads were placed over any debris, problems could still occur.
It was reasonable to then say that overlap was the main problem.

Unfortunately, I know zilch about JSDs', otherwise I would probably mess with tiles far more.
Are there any 'how to' guides for JSDs' out there ?

@Kriplo....
Good luck to you !!
We really (desperately) need a stable editor as a prime objective.
Thanks for you volunteering.

[Updated on: Thu, 18 September 2008 10:29] by Moderator

Re: Project "v1.13 Stable Modding Platform" Looking for Coders and Betatesters[message #196556] Thu, 18 September 2008 13:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shanga

 
Messages:3526
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia
With the exception of the aformentioned Russian research and an old editor we used for UC, the JSDs have always been the "unknown". We do know how they work... they store tile properties such as "impassable", "jumpable", "animation", etc... but there's no official documentation that I've seen. Even the original developers from Sirtech seemed pretty much confused about JSDs - I assume they just had some primitive tools made by 3rd parties that generated them.


Re: Project "v1.13 Stable Modding Platform" Looking for Coders and Betatesters[message #196580] Thu, 18 September 2008 19:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Khor1255

 
Messages:1834
Registered:August 2003
Location: Pleasantville, NJ
@ Kriplo

I should most likely send you the latest version of the map editor ChrisL sent me a few days ago. I am not getting the worst problems with this one and it does not have the major update nonsense. In fact, it loads faster than any beta editor I've ever used. I am going to ask him if this is alright or to (even better) send it himself so that he can explain (in coder talk) what you should be looking for with that particular version.

I'm really happy you are looking at the editor. A debug capability is a great first step. We have been talking about .jsds and their interactions with maps as being prime suspects for map editor problems.

There are many cool things that could be achieved with extended understanding of .jsds. A .jsd file is the 'structural' information about each map object and how it relates to game physics and overall interaction. These files control such things as how massive (tall or wide) map objects are as well as other properties like if they can be penetrated by gunfire, opened by a player (doors and crates), climbed on, jumped over, if they are water, if when shot they might explode, and most likely a few dozen things I did not mention. Unlocking the properties on these files would not only allow modders to have a better working map editor but might also provide us with the means to create new map objects with a better editor than those currently available (I know, greed rears it's ugly head again).
There are a few current editors that may or may not help you to understand .jsds (assuming you don't already). I could send them to you or you could get them from here:

http://kermi.pp.fi/ja2/editors/

The other major issue with the editor might be far easier. It seems the editor does not correctly erase or overwrite existing tiles. Ideally, if you placed a new tile on top of one (like a furniture tile) that the program would have to pick one or the other it would place the new tile automatically erasing the old one. This would only be desireable for tiles like furniture because you would still want to be able to place other things (that the game allows) on the same tile. You must currently erase the existing tile before adding your new one (which may be the only way to do it in the end and that is not a problem) but very often the game still acts as if some 'trace' of the erased map object is still there and this can result in assertion errors and other weirdness that make some modded maps a mess.

I hope you can do something about these problems but if you find that it is too boring or whatever please stop and work on something that entertains you. The worst thing would be to have you burn out before adding anything to the project. It is my sincere hope you stick with the map editor for a while but we all do this mainly for entertainment so please stay entertained.


@shed

Did you ever get your map editor working? I would also like to send you the one ChrisL sent me so it could be two people testing it instead of just one. Thanks for the input here. There are so few of us who respond these days that it is good to hear another voice once in a while.


@Shanga

Yes. Even the best JSD Editors are lacking (the Russian one I've never really been able to understand and it is supposed to be by far the superior one). Having all of this data understood and - dare I hope - externalized would be a fantastic leap for modding ability and general improvement of our understanding into an extremely important element of game physics. I really hope someone cracks this one.
Re: Project "v1.13 Stable Modding Platform" Looking for Coders and Betatesters[message #196586] Thu, 18 September 2008 22:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
shed23

 
Messages:131
Registered:October 2004
Location: U.K.
Khor1255
@shed

Did you ever get your map editor working? I would also like to send you the one ChrisL sent me so it could be two people testing it instead of just one. Thanks for the input here. There are so few of us who respond these days that it is good to hear another voice once in a while.



I have, of sorts, got the editor up and running.
It is highly unstable though.

I would certainly appreciate your sending me the one by ChrisL. Once I have it, I will do my best to trip it up, or whatever.
I can seriously devote time to this towards the end of this month, and (hopefully), solidly from then onwards.

Regarding the JSDs'.
If I was to create a new static graphic, how is a JSD assigned, or with what program, and how ?
I am clueless on this one !!
Re: Project "v1.13 Stable Modding Platform" Looking for Coders and Betatesters[message #196588] Thu, 18 September 2008 22:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Khor1255

 
Messages:1834
Registered:August 2003
Location: Pleasantville, NJ
There are two JSD builders on the kermi site

http://kermi.pp.fi/ja2/editors/

They both start with jsd in their title. About halfway down the page. The only thing I have ever done is replace existing map objects with new ones and reassigned the .jsds to their correct dimensions. There is so much more you can do with those programs but the best way I've always had to introduce myself to any utility is to load it and check it out. I always keep an experimental version of my mod and an experimental version of the vanilla game to make sure any problem I have is unique to my mod and not something I am doing wrong on a fundamental basis.
I'll send you the map editor by ChrisL. He said it should work with any version passed the 2085 but I am experimenting with the 2112. If you also need that .exe let me know.

I hope between the two of us we can actually provide some help to whoever is working on the map editor. I almost completely abandoned the 1.13. It would be a shame after all the progress that has been made here but something that cannot be modded is of no interest to me. I've already played the vanilla game to death.
Re: Project "v1.13 Stable Modding Platform" Looking for Coders and Betatesters[message #196595] Thu, 18 September 2008 23:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kriplo

 
Messages:261
Registered:February 2008
Location: Zagreb - Croatia
Thank you all, provided information helps me a lot. Already find serious memory leaking when you put road tiles, tomorrow I will investigate in more detail.
I
Re: Project "v1.13 Stable Modding Platform" Looking for Coders and Betatesters[message #196602] Fri, 19 September 2008 00:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Khor1255

 
Messages:1834
Registered:August 2003
Location: Pleasantville, NJ
That is most likely the same editor we are using.

The exact title of mine is: Map Editor_2345_en_100AP.4. I think the 100ap.4 has something to do with the new 100 ap code but I don't know where or if this affects the map editor. I do know that the most serious issue with the 1.13 map editor seems to have been solved in this one and it loads faster than any map editor I've ever used (even the vanilla one). Hat's off to ChrisL if this is really fixed. I have only really altered a few maps with it so far but all signs are that it is fully functional.

The other issues - of course - are vanilla map editor issues. But they are extremely serious because they have putt off many a potential modder due to incredible amounts of frustration. See, those of us who are barely computer literate yet still want to create for games we like are predisposed to be intimidated by computer error. We are used to such errors being our fault. When we find that it is the program acting in such an unpredictable and sometime catastrophic way it takes all of the fun out of it. I've been blessed (or cursed) in the past with a lot of extra time on my hands to track down and try to figure workarounds for such issues. I have put up with placing the exact same road tile about 100 times to the exact same location because the editor does not want it there. I'm not exaggerating.
I've just about completely given up on messing around with cliffs. On almost every occasion I have spent about 45 minutes assembling my cliff set along one edge of the map (one time I got crazy and actually tried to place a cliff (mesa) in the middle of the map) only to have the entire map be 'ripped' out of any functional use once I hit save.

This is frustrating to say the least.

What we are looking for in the SMP project is a way to make a version as stable as possible but also with enough tools to make creating new gameworlds for Ja2 as user friendly as possible. What you are doing by working with the editor is removing a huge amount of obstacles to anyone just getting into modding while saving those of us working on mods countless hours of wasted work due to some erroneous way the editor handles what we try to do with it.

If you also find a way to make an easy to use JSD editor (or series of xmls even) or can even get to the bottom of why some jsds behave so erratically (roofs, cliffs, roads, etc.) it would be of great benefit to those of us trying to make mods.

Thanks again for looking at this stuff. I hope it maintains your interest.
Re: Project "v1.13 Stable Modding Platform" Looking for Coders and Betatesters[message #196607] Fri, 19 September 2008 01:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Marlboro Man

 
Messages:1268
Registered:October 2005
Location: USA
Quote:
Map Editor_2345_en_100AP.4.


Yes, that's the latest.

Quote:
I think the 100ap.4 has something to do with the new 100 ap code but I don't know where or if this affects the map editor.


That's only the filename. And has nothing to do with the map editor.



Re: Project "v1.13 Stable Modding Platform" Looking for Coders and Betatesters[message #196609] Fri, 19 September 2008 02:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kriplo

 
Messages:261
Registered:February 2008
Location: Zagreb - Croatia
Yes, version seems to be identical.
Found source of memory leaking in road placement and fixit. Not getting more messages like
Re: Project "v1.13 Stable Modding Platform" Looking for Coders and Betatesters[message #196611] Fri, 19 September 2008 02:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Khor1255

 
Messages:1834
Registered:August 2003
Location: Pleasantville, NJ
I don't know of any list of editor bugs and the search function here is not very functional. Cliffs are really weird to place because where your cursor is does not seem quite right and you have to fit them together just right or they look like hell. If you play around with it a little you will most likely get it.

Shed has a very cool map editor guide somewhere. I used to have it but lost it in a HD boo boo and have not obtained another copy. I could send you the ub editor manual but you could probably find that just as easy.

You are on the right track getting familiar with the editor and it's great to hear that you already have a fix for one of the more quirky bugs. If there is any thing I can help you with my address is:

khor1966@yahoo.com

I should have a lot of time in the next few days but after that it may be a little hard to get in touch with me. But I will definitely answer any question or provide any material you might need. It's looking like we might be making some progress here after all.
Re: Project "v1.13 Stable Modding Platform" Looking for Coders and Betatesters[message #196619] Fri, 19 September 2008 04:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Marlboro Man

 
Messages:1268
Registered:October 2005
Location: USA
Quote:
Is there on forum any official list of editor bugs and things what should be done with them?


Unfortunately not. So you will have to go by what Khor and Shed tell you about what's wrong. I myself have been out of the loop for a while now, but hopefully after the end of next month I can get back into things. Scorpion would have been another good one to tell about bugs, but I guess he is not associating with BP anymore. Anyway....good luck finding bugs and glad to have you aboard. Smile


And here is the link to Shed's Editor manual.
http://www.badongo.com/file/2783637

[Updated on: Fri, 19 September 2008 04:39] by Moderator



Re: Project "v1.13 Stable Modding Platform" Looking for Coders and Betatesters[message #196627] Fri, 19 September 2008 09:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
shed23

 
Messages:131
Registered:October 2004
Location: U.K.
Kriplo
Yes, version seems to be identical.Now I
Re: Project "v1.13 Stable Modding Platform" Looking for Coders and Betatesters[message #196669] Fri, 19 September 2008 15:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kermi

 
Messages:92
Registered:October 2002
i think i have the map-editor guide too.. at http://kermi.pp.fi/ja2/misc

edit: oh heh.. .didn't notice the earlier link to the guide.. oh well Very Happy

[Updated on: Fri, 19 September 2008 15:30] by Moderator

Re: Project "v1.13 Stable Modding Platform" Looking for Coders and Betatesters[message #196684] Fri, 19 September 2008 19:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ctiberious

 
Messages:607
Registered:March 2007
The version of the editor I sent to Khor (Map Editor_2345_en_100AP.4... and I have no problems if he sends it to other folks Smile ) was compiled using my 100AP source code. I keep that code up to date with all the latest code from the main code branch. The 100AP code that is in that build has no impact on the editor itself, though, which is why I didn't see a problem compiling it. The changes I made to the editor (after testing) were then pulled out of my 100AP code so I could add them to the main code branch. So if you're using the code from the main code branch (ver 2345 or later), then you'll have the changes I made. I'll send an email and see if we can't get the new editor added to the main game branch, but in the mean time if anyone wants a copy of the editor Khor is working with, feel free to send me an email (ctiberious (at) aol.com) and I'll be happy to send you a copy. Or just ask Khor and I'm sure he'll send you the copy he has. Smile

@Kriplo: I'd love to see the code changes you've come up with to resolve some of these memory leaks. Once they've been fully tested, I'll help you get them committed to the main code branch. I'm no modder either, but I'd love to see the editor working smoothly for all the modders out there.

Re: Project "v1.13 Stable Modding Platform" Looking for Coders and Betatesters[message #196691] Fri, 19 September 2008 19:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
shed23

 
Messages:131
Registered:October 2004
Location: U.K.
@ChrisL. Thanks for the offer, but got it from Khor.

@Kriplo. Thought of one more item (or items) that can cause assertion errors, very similar to the road tiles.
This can be found in the TileSet: Tropical1(one), and is the Grass1 sti numbers 0 to 8.
When these are placed, they often cause errors and the only soultion I found, was to delete the offending grass .sti and leave it out from that tile completely.
They are particularly troublesome when placed around rocks to mimic reeds etc...
Re: Project "v1.13 Stable Modding Platform" Looking for Coders and Betatesters[message #196703] Fri, 19 September 2008 21:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kriplo

 
Messages:261
Registered:February 2008
Location: Zagreb - Croatia
I download manual, thanks.

@ChrisL

Thanks I check your branch for particular editor files and seems identical as from game branch I use. Today find another leak when you choose to add roads from cliff section. There is also general mess with scroll after you delete cliff, something still left screwing the map.
Currently fixing problem in filling area with textures. This part constantly go with stack overflow in debug mode, in release it just terminate without any message.
I will send you patch or complete files as soon will be sure that fix could pass.

@shed23

I will check tropical tileset also, but first need to get rid of current problems. Really don
Re: Project "v1.13 Stable Modding Platform" Looking for Coders and Betatesters[message #196705] Fri, 19 September 2008 21:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lockie

 
Messages:3968
Registered:February 2006
Location: Scotland
thanks for your work here Kriplo , Khorr and Shed will surely be a bit happier Smile , now , if only scorpion was still around :whistle:


Re: Project "v1.13 Stable Modding Platform" Looking for Coders and Betatesters[message #196724] Sat, 20 September 2008 00:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kriplo

 
Messages:261
Registered:February 2008
Location: Zagreb - Croatia
@Khor

Excellent, D12 map you send me is screwed by let say scrolling/unreaching problem Wink probably after you add/delete cliffs. It will be helpful in trying to solve that problem and maybe even fix your map.

Texture Filing Stack Overflow problem seems to be solved, so now going on cliffs.

I
Re: Project "v1.13 Stable Modding Platform" Looking for Coders and Betatesters[message #196726] Sat, 20 September 2008 00:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
shed23

 
Messages:131
Registered:October 2004
Location: U.K.
Kriplo


What do you think about putting editor and game together? So from main menu you will have option EDITOR. After editing map you can choose go back to main menu. In that way, testing map should be much more easier then as now first must shut editor then start game, well it
Re: Project "v1.13 Stable Modding Platform" Looking for Coders and Betatesters[message #196728] Sat, 20 September 2008 00:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Khor1255

 
Messages:1834
Registered:August 2003
Location: Pleasantville, NJ
I agree with shed here. It might be a good idea to keep them separate for the time being but maybe if there ever is a Stable Modding Platform a 'finished' (ha ha) version with a built in map editor might not be a bad idea. I don't really think it is necessary but others might. I also share shed's concern that it could make your work more difficult in the long run but if you don't think so and that is the direction you want to go, why not?

I'm also real glad you are making such progress. Thanks to ChrisL for fixing the editor as well. I think it is pretty safe to say that while not backward compatible it does seem to be working like it should. Your improvements might make it the best map editor we've ever had.

Good stuff.
Re: Project "v1.13 Stable Modding Platform" Looking for Coders and Betatesters[message #196731] Sat, 20 September 2008 01:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ctiberious

 
Messages:607
Registered:March 2007
From a codder/player standpoint, I'd keep the editor seperate simply because it's extra code that isn't needed for the normal game. 90% (if not more) of the players don't use the editor so having that code be part of the main executable just adds fat that isn't needed.

Re: Project "v1.13 Stable Modding Platform" Looking for Coders and Betatesters[message #196736] Sat, 20 September 2008 01:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shanga

 
Messages:3526
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia

Indeed, Santa came early this year Smile


Re: Project "v1.13 Stable Modding Platform" Looking for Coders and Betatesters[message #196760] Sat, 20 September 2008 11:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lockie

 
Messages:3968
Registered:February 2006
Location: Scotland
The love is flowing , feel the luuuurrrvvvee ! Very Happy

Kriplo for President ( oops , wrong thread :biglaugh: )


Re: Project "v1.13 Stable Modding Platform" Looking for Coders and Betatesters[message #196763] Sat, 20 September 2008 12:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kriplo

 
Messages:261
Registered:February 2008
Location: Zagreb - Croatia
Please guys, there is no room for such euphoria, there are plenty of fuzzy things still on Smile
Ok you convinced me so will left editor separate from game. If have time will only try to fix leaving editor mode, it is good for observation of map behavior in real time through GABBI options. Something maybe is fixed, but you modders will judge that.

@Khor, @shed, if you wish I could send you current state of editor?

Called
Re: Project "v1.13 Stable Modding Platform" Looking for Coders and Betatesters[message #196765] Sat, 20 September 2008 13:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
shed23

 
Messages:131
Registered:October 2004
Location: U.K.
@Kriplo.

I would certainly be interested in testing your 'current editor'.

But only when the cliffs problem is looked at and sorted out.
The reason I say this, is because I have ideas for 'multi-level' maps, which would be dependant upon cliffs working correctly.

How about using the success with cliffs (as I am sure you will have success) as a point to release the editor for testing ?
Or have you already sorted out the cliffs problem ?
You are working at such a pace, amazing !!

When this point is reached, then by all means send the editor to us for testing. Just click on my name and my e-mail is in my profile area (in case you didn't know that).

** You never know Kriplo, we could make a modder out of you yet. Think of it, a coding modder, the mind boggles !!
Re: Project "v1.13 Stable Modding Platform" Looking for Coders and Betatesters[message #196769] Sat, 20 September 2008 14:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kriplo

 
Messages:261
Registered:February 2008
Location: Zagreb - Croatia
@Chris as we agreed I sent editor files with fixes to your private mail for preliminary evaluation. You will find
Re: Project "v1.13 Stable Modding Platform" Looking for Coders and Betatesters[message #196770] Sat, 20 September 2008 14:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shanga

 
Messages:3526
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia
lol kriplo, modding goes so much beyond what you modestly think it is.

The best JA2 mods were always the result of intensive efforts by coders (who did the magic), gfx artists (who painted the sky blue) and mappers (who put earth, sky and magic together).

Even more, gunmaking is such a detail work it makes for its own modding category.

But we disgress. Let's get back ontopic, everyone is dying to see SMP actually producing something. You seem to have a tremendous ability to hunt down bugs in code and you don't even imagine what that means in the context of v1.13 and this modding community.


Re: Project "v1.13 Stable Modding Platform" Looking for Coders and Betatesters[message #196806] Sat, 20 September 2008 23:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Khor1255

 
Messages:1834
Registered:August 2003
Location: Pleasantville, NJ
@ Kriplo

I would be interested in testing your map editor. However, I think you may be mistaken about more than one object on a tile. To have realistic maps you should be able to place two objects on one tile as long as they are compatible. In other words, of course you should not be able to place a tree on the same tile as a wall or something like that but we already see in maps where there are weeds on rods, debris on floor tiles, etc. I think the best function would be if a road or floor tile (including a whole building) automatically erased any tile under it but then you had the ability to place another tile on top. An automatic erase for these tiles might eliminate the overflow problem and make the process easier. In the case of roads and floors almost anything should be able to be placed on top of the existing tile.

I also notice a problem when you choose a lot of different objects from a set. The editor often tries to place every tile you have chosen from the set onto one grid. Of course, the way this should work is that only the tile you have cued up (appears on the bottom of the screen in your selection box) should be the one that is placed but often with map objects like debris or miscellaneous objects they all appear clumped together on the same grid. I am only mentioning this because it may be a clue as to why the program has trouble handling multiple objects placed on the same tile. Furniture (in the buildings section) always seems to be placed correctly in these situations so perhaps there could be some clue gathered by looking at the way the editor places furniture.

these are just guesses from a non coder so forgive me if I am telling you something you already know or am on the wrong track.

It's really great to see something finally done here.
Re: Project "v1.13 Stable Modding Platform" Looking for Coders and Betatesters[message #196813] Sun, 21 September 2008 01:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kriplo

 
Messages:261
Registered:February 2008
Location: Zagreb - Croatia
@Khor
you will receive current version but I
Re: Project "v1.13 Stable Modding Platform" Looking for Coders and Betatesters[message #196817] Sun, 21 September 2008 01:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Khor1255

 
Messages:1834
Registered:August 2003
Location: Pleasantville, NJ
I wonder if it might be possible to assign the cliffs the same jsd value as a wall with a roof tile attached? I know that is two different objects but since these work a lot better it might give you a clue to the solution? Even better it would give modders cliffs that you could actually climb on.

The way I was thinking it should work is that normal cliffs behave like a wall tile with an arched roof tile on top (not able to climb atop) this way it would both satisfy the existing maps and give mappers the ability to create cliffs either climbable or not. It also might give you the ability to create mesa (butte) type cliff areas in the middle of maps. I have never been able to pull this off. It seems that cliffs only work if they are along the map edge and this may be a part of the problem. Somewhere along the map edge you have an area that goes off the screen (you can find this by holding down the shift key and scrolling toward the map edge). Perhaps incorrectly placed cliffs are partly placed over the edge of a map and therefore making problems with the ground texture? Just a guess and maybe the wrong one since you can place any other map object (except avatars) well into this edge zone with no problem.


I notice when I have a group of map objects cued up they all appear on the map with even one quick click. I like that you can scroll over the map adding random cued map tiles as you go but couldn't the program be made to check that your mouse button is on the same tile before adding more than one object to that tile? Just a question, I mainly wanted to tell you about this in case it helped you to figure out the problem that caused the editor to go out of range.

thanks for the test editor. I will load this into a regular 1.13 install and work with it tonight. I may not have a clear answer about this for a couple of days but I will have a look.

good work man.
Re: Project "v1.13 Stable Modding Platform" Looking for Coders and Betatesters[message #196881] Mon, 22 September 2008 01:41 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Kriplo

 
Messages:261
Registered:February 2008
Location: Zagreb - Croatia
I was also thinking about climbable cliffs, will see what can be done because any way should go into cliff jsd, then try to figure out how to wrote better solution for automatic define of high ground. Climbing could be done by crawling on cliff and for that you don
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