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When morals take over[message #196045] Mon, 08 September 2008 12:15 Go to next message
Watchman

 
Messages:103
Registered:August 2008
Location: Philippines
JA2 1.13
Grumm
Expert

This was not too long ago
I was at the residential area, the one with the houses and the fenced area with a bunch of crates inside. My unit enters the area from the northeast moving south west towards the street. As my point, Trevor sets foot on the road, we make contact.
I have everyone set up a skirmish line and lay prone. When they were ready, I opened things up with Maria's(one of IMPs) AWM, killing the red shirt that was spotted first.
The mayhem that followed was at first a relatively easy turkey shoot as enemy after enemy walked into the firing line. A few tried to flank us but Shadow, who had a PSG, pretty much shut them out single-handedly.
After while, reinforcements came, entering from what looked like the south. They were grey shirts with slightly better gear than what most of my men had. They took positions out of the range of half the squad.
I noticed a large group of them were bunched pretty close together, a perfect target for mortar shelling. So had another IMP, Breaker, pull out his commando mortar and MD switch to his OICW.

I had Breaker switch to mustard and MD load up with thermobaric, I was planning to use the mustard to hurt those w/o masks and mess up the accuracy of those with it, while the thermo was to do the major hurt. :pitchfork:

Before I did that, I had Maria scope out the area that I was going to gas and blast, that's when I saw a kid standing just a few feet from the enemy position I was about to gas. :uhh:
With that I switched to a plain mortar shell and standard HE grenades.

I still won that battle, but Maria spent almost all her Lapua rounds and Breaker used up all his plain mortar shells. Not mention my squad took a lot of hits and required some major medical attention after that.
Re: When morales take over[message #196047] Mon, 08 September 2008 12:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
boggiboggwursdt

 
Messages:36
Registered:March 2008
Ok, so what was your intend when writing this?
Re: When morales take over[message #196048] Mon, 08 September 2008 12:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Watchman

 
Messages:103
Registered:August 2008
Location: Philippines
I was wondering if anyone else got those moments when their conscience just takes over, I know it's a game but killing kids is just not my thing.
Re: When morales take over[message #196050] Mon, 08 September 2008 13:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lockie

 
Messages:3968
Registered:February 2006
Location: Scotland
errr , it's a game , no actual kids are harmed in the playing of this game Very Happy
stop worrying , start killing !


Re: When morales take over[message #196057] Mon, 08 September 2008 15:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Headrock

 
Messages:1795
Registered:March 2006
Location: Jerusalem
For me, at some point (around the time when area-effect weapons come into play, usually the army uses them first of course) I figure that if the civilians are too stupid to pack up and start marching towards my territory, they're intentionally placing themselves in the line of fire. If they refuse to move out of the way, they'll suffer with the redshirts. A live merc saves more lives than a dead merc, so if they can't move the f*** out of the way, they're asking for it. It's for the greater good. I do try to avoid hitting them, of course, but sometimes their stupidity deserves culling Smile


Re: When morales take over[message #196062] Mon, 08 September 2008 16:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lockie

 
Messages:3968
Registered:February 2006
Location: Scotland
It's really interesting how you both rationalise killing civs (or not)in this game ! Of course morale drops if civs killed , but , casualty of war and all that , no ? Smile


Re: When morales take over[message #196065] Mon, 08 September 2008 16:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Headrock

 
Messages:1795
Registered:March 2006
Location: Jerusalem
I like to play good guys, I usually do whenever any roleplaying is involved. I guess it's a natural tendency, something along the lines of "cause harm only where neccesary". Therefore, I need justification, at least to myself, before causing harm Wink


Re: When morales take over[message #196066] Mon, 08 September 2008 17:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
KEN C

 
Messages:258
Registered:May 2007
Location: Aberdeen Washington USA
I believe the civilians are designed by Sir-Tech to interfere in battles to create the human shield effect. If you notice many times the civilians will place themselves directly into the merc's line of fire. I don't know how this works in RL but I can imagine troops of a brutal army like this using every dirty trick in the book especially when citizen support is part of the game.
Re: When morales take over[message #196067] Mon, 08 September 2008 17:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
SpaceViking

 
Messages:762
Registered:January 2004
Location: Rochester, Minnesota, USA
I avoid civilian casualties at all costs when I play. Sometimes you get unlucky with a missed shot or a hidden civ gets caught in a blast and that sucks but I'd never take a shot on purpose that put them in harm's way.

BTW, using mustard gas in town has a morale hit itself IIRC. And I've never had much luck using it anyway as the soldiers all seem to carry gas masks at some point.

I do tend to lug in some in the final assault on the palace, though. Because mortars will get tossed aside for the final underground assault I bring as many mortar rounds or all kinds as the whole team can handle and basically shell the palace everywhere I can hit inside. When the walls go down the gas can reach inside where the shells don't do a lot of damage. When I hear a scream from a shell hit I follow it up with a mustard gas shell. I actually managed to eliminate all the foes this way in one attack, yes, including Elliot.


Re: When morales take over[message #196068] Mon, 08 September 2008 17:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lockie

 
Messages:3968
Registered:February 2006
Location: Scotland
Quote:
I like to play good guys, I usually do whenever any roleplaying is involved. I guess it's a natural tendency, something along the lines of "cause harm only where neccesary". Therefore, I need justification, at least to myself, before causing harm


As do I , but if a kids in the way of a shot , it wont stop me taking it . I think to myself , they're not real , they're not real Very Happy


Re: When morales take over[message #196071] Mon, 08 September 2008 19:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Marlboro Man

 
Messages:1265
Registered:October 2005
Location: USA
Quote:
I avoid civilian casualties at all costs when I play.


I do the same. I will wait a turn for them to move out of the way, or I will move my merc to a different firing position.


Re: When morales take over[message #196072] Mon, 08 September 2008 19:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lockie

 
Messages:3968
Registered:February 2006
Location: Scotland
OMG , I'm a cold hearted killing machine , with no thought for others ! :grimreaper: In real life ,if it was you with POSSIBLY a kid in the line of fire , would you all really avoid the shot ? Doubt they did in Iraq or Vietnam and lived to tell the tale . No-one would deliberately shoot a child , but a spray of gunfire isn't discriminating . :eek3:


Re: When morales take over[message #196074] Mon, 08 September 2008 19:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
w0dka

 
Messages:15
Registered:June 2007
Cause of ironman, and some extreme difficult option s I usually spray fire and sometimes use mortars to clear out spots where I think there could be someone... so yes I kill civilitians sometimes. But if I can avoid killing them I let them survive.
Re: When morales take over[message #196075] Mon, 08 September 2008 19:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Watchman

 
Messages:103
Registered:August 2008
Location: Philippines
SpaceViking
BTW, using mustard gas in town has a morale hit itself IIRC. And I've never had much luck using it anyway as the soldiers all seem to carry gas masks at some point.


Oh? Didn't knew that. I normally use it as a distraction and mess up enemy accuracy, damage by it the bonus

lockie

As do I , but if a kids in the way of a shot , it wont stop me taking it . I think to myself , they're not real , they're not real Very Happy


Lol, you must be a big believer in the saying, "Kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out."

Actually, that was the first time I actually changed my plan of action for a civ, and normally civvies don't cause me problems unless I decide use burst/auto.
Re: When morales take over[message #196077] Mon, 08 September 2008 20:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
SpaceViking

 
Messages:762
Registered:January 2004
Location: Rochester, Minnesota, USA
Watchman
SpaceViking
BTW, using mustard gas in town has a morale hit itself IIRC. And I've never had much luck using it anyway as the soldiers all seem to carry gas masks at some point.


Oh? Didn't knew that. I normally use it as a distraction and mess up enemy accuracy, damage by it the bonus


And now that I said that I can't find it in the code. Embarrassed


Re: When morales take over[message #196078] Mon, 08 September 2008 20:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
funk

 
Messages:43
Registered:March 2008
i have some civs it drassan mine from my plan of mineing the gaps that the enemy must come tru
Re: When morales take over[message #196085] Mon, 08 September 2008 21:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Headrock

 
Messages:1795
Registered:March 2006
Location: Jerusalem
Quote:
And now that I said that I can't find it in the code.


Hahahaaaaaa Sorry I just had to gloat. Now maybe you'll forgive me once in a while when I come up with wildly uncorroborated claims about crazy sh** in the code. Deal? Smile


Re: When morales take over[message #196086] Mon, 08 September 2008 21:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lockie

 
Messages:3968
Registered:February 2006
Location: Scotland
Quote:
Poster: Headrock
Subject: Re: When morales take over

Quote:
And now that I said that I can't find it in the code.

Hahahaaaaaa Sorry I just had to gloat. Now maybe you'll forgive me once in a while when I come up with wildly uncorroborated claims about crazy sh** in the code. Deal?


oh you kidders , now kiss and make up Very Happy


Re: When morales take over[message #196090] Mon, 08 September 2008 23:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
SpaceViking

 
Messages:762
Registered:January 2004
Location: Rochester, Minnesota, USA
Headrock
Quote:
And now that I said that I can't find it in the code.


Hahahaaaaaa Sorry I just had to gloat. Now maybe you'll forgive me once in a while when I come up with wildly uncorroborated claims about crazy sh** in the code. Deal? Smile


Never! If need be I'll add it in myself and then I'll be right!! :naughty:


Re: When morales take over[message #196096] Tue, 09 September 2008 01:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
HeroForHire

 
Messages:23
Registered:August 2008
I play with Fidel, Razor and Haywire and this reminds me of the SAM site attack at Drassen, when one of those greenshirts thought it was a good idea to move between Haywires target and Haywire himself.

20 bullets solved both the greyshirt and greenshirt Smile
Re: When morales take over[message #196132] Tue, 09 September 2008 18:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
SpaceViking

 
Messages:762
Registered:January 2004
Location: Rochester, Minnesota, USA
There, I found it PrivateWeaponsForCoolCoders.cpp:

if (player_merc_used_mustard_gas_on_poor_innocent_defenseless_downtrodden_townsfolk) {
  SpaceVikingWasRight = TRUE;
  town_morale -= 3.1415926;
}



Wow, pi sneaks in almost everywhere.

[Updated on: Tue, 09 September 2008 20:06] by Moderator



Re: When morales take over[message #196135] Tue, 09 September 2008 19:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
systemfehler

 
Messages:117
Registered:September 2007
Location: Hanover, Germany
Sparing the kids means one more gray shirt when they're grown up.
Re: When morales take over[message #196142] Tue, 09 September 2008 19:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Headrock

 
Messages:1795
Registered:March 2006
Location: Jerusalem
Quote:
if (player_merc_used_mustard_gas_on_poor_innocent_defenseless_downtrodden_townsfolk) {
SpaceVikingWasRight = TRUE;
town_morale -= 3.1415926;
}


ROFL!!!!!! :biglaugh: :placard: :biglaugh:

You should've put it in a "[code]" box. Smile


Re: When morales take over[message #196151] Tue, 09 September 2008 21:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
WillyWonka

 
Messages:124
Registered:February 2006
Location: Sweden/Sverige
I also try to avoid civilan casualities. It
Re: When morales take over[message #196401] Mon, 15 September 2008 05:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kensuke

 
Messages:40
Registered:May 2007
Look...if they're retarded enough to get in the line of fire, social darwinism takes effect. The hit to town morale is not THAT big. Not that I go out of my way to kill them, but I have to say that the "Civilian's Turn" part of the battle is annoying to wait through too. Why do I have to wait an additional 30 seconds so they can all walk 5 feet and cower in a different location? I want to put a PA annoucement through the Ice Cream truck that says "Attention Idiot Civilians! Get in your houses and remain immobile throughout the battle (ie. don't take your turn)!".

Interestingly enough, I dislike mustard and tear gas because a lot of enemies have gas masks, and I usually use weapons and ammo that conform to the Hague Convention. So I'd say I'm a "good guy", but not unrealistically so.

- John
Re: When morales take over[message #197429] Fri, 26 September 2008 20:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Rednight

 
Messages:103
Registered:April 2004
Location: United States



I don't kill civilians and frankly I have had seldom reason to even come close to hurting them. I know from the forum some guys move through the game like butchers killing everything they can to get marksmenship to go up faster, but for me it is about warrior ethics.

Anyone can kill and not worry about who dies ini the assault. It takes real skill to protect the innocent.

Kill a kid and it stops him from growing up to be a red shirt? Come on save a kid you have Blue shirt later on and maybe even a good merc.
Re: When morales take over[message #197789] Tue, 30 September 2008 20:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
WillyWonka

 
Messages:124
Registered:February 2006
Location: Sweden/Sverige
Has anyone tried playing a game of 100% complete extermination of all living creatures in Arulco? Soldiers, NPC:s, hicks, bloodcats, militia, men, women, kids, cows, crows, the robot? Maybe even hiring all the mercs just to "accidently" blow up a couple of TNT stacks and mustard gas grenades in the middle of the crowd? And then finishing the game by suicide bombing Dedrianna in her bunker with the last of the six IMP:s.

Moral aspects aside, it would be a very big and time consuming task.

Re: When morales take over[message #199430] Sun, 19 October 2008 02:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
viracicha

 
Messages:103
Registered:November 2007
i try it before; with imp + grizzly ( he accept to kill civilians ), but it is boring.
but i must admit that sometime, when there is no cover during battle, civilians prostated are making a passably good wall against bullets ( think of a terrorist and his hostage )
Re: When morales take over[message #199572] Mon, 20 October 2008 23:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
hiddenCrex
Messages:6
Registered:October 2008
Location: 47
I am a player veteran of Jagged Alliance 2. It about 10 years of game, I always managed to avoid the civilians losses civilians, some injured characters from time to time but no single dead man.
Since I play the 1.13 mod, I was surprised with the collateral damages, not a single confrontation in urban zone without militia or queen's soldiers shoot and kill civilians or kids. Good half of the noticed deaths were not directly in line of fire.
I presume a natural consequence of the increase and the power of the armament in the game.
Re: When morales take over[message #199575] Tue, 21 October 2008 00:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Headrock

 
Messages:1795
Registered:March 2006
Location: Jerusalem
Hey Crex, so you live in Dijon, eh? What's that nice tall house with the garden next to it? Wink


Re: When morales take over[message #199579] Tue, 21 October 2008 01:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
hiddenCrex
Messages:6
Registered:October 2008
Location: 47
There are several parks and gardens in Dijon, but I think that you speak about the Palace of the Dukes of Burgundy. Currently residence of the mayor of Dijon, seat of the local administration and museum.
Re: When morales take over[message #199581] Tue, 21 October 2008 01:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Headrock

 
Messages:1795
Registered:March 2006
Location: Jerusalem
Nono, it's a small house very close to your coordinates, with a small garden on the front side.


Re: When morales take over[message #199600] Tue, 21 October 2008 10:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
hiddenCrex
Messages:6
Registered:October 2008
Location: 47
I think that my coordinates are slightly erroneous, I live more in the South of this rent.
You can clarify me a little more with regard to the indicated, north, south, east, west, on a main street or a small path.
Re: When morales take over[message #204506] Sat, 20 December 2008 16:00 Go to previous message
incognito253

 
Messages:53
Registered:December 2008
Location: Ohio, USA

I hear Dijon is beautiful.

And killing civilians is wrong. It's not their fault they have no training and are programmed with AI likenable to a slow turkey (yes, I mean stupid by turkey standards)

Actually, the militia AI bothers me more. "There's a firefight! My turn is: uncrouch, run 5 steps NE, run 5 steps SW, crouch. Wait."

Idiocy.

If it wasn't for the fact that their sheer volume effectively defends towns in my games where my squad/merc (currently playing expert Iron man with only 1 merc) are out of town, I would probably find a way to get them to blow themselves up. I would train them, all the way to aqua shirt, just to get them to step on land mines.

That said, I bandage civilians who accidentally get shot/catch frag during a firefight, if they survive (which they do surprisingly a lot). When battles get to the mop-up stage in city fights, I bandage dying militia to keep 'em alive (esp. since they could upgrade to a navy shirt after battle, which is its own reward as navy shirts seem to actually sport better combat performance than enemy elites) instead of hunting down the last few goons.

I'd rather let the militia take one in the chest, as they automatically heal completely after combat. And my characters are usually wounded 10+ times in their first 3 battles, so I don't need to tempt probability any worse than I already do Wink
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