Home » SIRTECH CLASSICS » Jagged Alliance 2 » The A.I.M. Library » Mustard gas is useless
Mustard gas is useless[message #205782] Wed, 07 January 2009 19:09 Go to next message
Walk is currently offline Walk

 
Messages:13
Registered:December 2008
Every elite enemy has an omnibus head armor that gives light at both day and night, and immunity to gas. At least, that's what I think. I threw one in an indoor room, waited forever for it to go away, and advanced. A bad guy unloaded a full clip into my full health IMP, killing him.

There was literally no way to get past this part without either cannon fodder, or using 4-5 regular grenades per room, which is unacceptable. Mustard gas should do damage even with a mask on, because it's far too weak otherwise, and it doesn't work as an anti camper weapon as it should.

What's even more upsetting was my IMP had the stealthy trait, level 8, full camo, and was sneaking on stealth mode while crouched. He STILL got interrupted first. I'm shocked when I actually get the first move, because it almost always goes to the enemies.

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Private
Re: Mustard gas is useless[message #205784] Wed, 07 January 2009 19:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
SpaceViking is currently offline SpaceViking

 
Messages:751
Registered:January 2004
Location: Rochester, Minnesota, USA
Elites almost always wear gas masks.

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First Sergeant

Re: Mustard gas is useless[message #205785] Wed, 07 January 2009 19:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Painy is currently offline Painy

 
Messages:9
Registered:May 2007
Location: Germany

Try Molotov Cocktails, they're basically the same as mustard gas grenades but gasmasks won't stop them doing damage.

Also throw 1 or 2 Stun Grenades (or even Flashbangs) into a room before entering it, a knocked-out enemy won't interrupt you.

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Private
Re: Mustard gas is useless[message #205791] Wed, 07 January 2009 21:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
foij is currently offline foij

 
Messages:227
Registered:February 2007
Location: in a van, down by the riv...
An unconventional tactic is to switch to EOD armor when breaching rooms. Unloading 30 rounds of 5.56 against EOD armor will cause 10 to 15 damage total, on average. Your merc will hit the floor from breath loss long before he hits the ground from taking too much damage.

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Sergeant 1st Class
Re: Mustard gas is useless[message #205793] Wed, 07 January 2009 21:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dyson is currently offline Dyson

 
Messages:204
Registered:December 2008
I suggest to store all that good heavy weapons for the later game when most of the elite soldiers appear and then use them in a massive destruction tactic.

I also like to use the "shmel"-launcher from BR.

If they camp in buildings, one can use explosives to bomb the walls off. At two or three positions simultaneous, it will kill or heavily hurt everyone in. But take care of civilians.

I've made the experience that sneaking on the roof directily overhead of the position of an enemy behind a window or an opened door and then jumping in front of him, mostly gives the interruption to me. Then burst in head or flashbang, stun, etc.

Try also to smoke yourself or them in. Through a smoke wand, one can sneak in the enemys back and then attack him (burst, knive or my personal favourite: auto-shotgun! mwuahahaha)

Smile

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Sergeant 1st Class
Re: Mustard gas is useless[message #205795] Wed, 07 January 2009 22:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
SpaceViking is currently offline SpaceViking

 
Messages:751
Registered:January 2004
Location: Rochester, Minnesota, USA
Given the OP isn't worried about civilians just use explosives first. The explosives damage the masks and then the gas leaks in. Or just use lots of explosives.

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First Sergeant

Re: Mustard gas is useless[message #205809] Thu, 08 January 2009 02:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
MikeThePro is currently offline MikeThePro

 
Messages:175
Registered:November 2007
Location: Bulgaria

One can always throw in some mustard gas if he's sure the enemy won't move and change position.
In most cases the gas will eat through the mask and will debilitte the target within 2-3 turns.

Just because someone is wearing gas mask doesn't mean that it's not, let's say, around 90% and will start letting contaminated air inside.

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Staff Sergeant
Re: Mustard gas is useless[message #205823] Thu, 08 January 2009 08:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Watchman is currently offline Watchman

 
Messages:101
Registered:August 2008
Location: Philippines
And even if they're wearing masks, mustard also has the properties of smoke so they can't shoot back at you accurately. It's a great way to get those damn elite snipers out of their safe spots in among the trees.

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Sergeant
Re: Mustard gas is useless[message #206042] Sat, 10 January 2009 19:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
MikeThePro is currently offline MikeThePro

 
Messages:175
Registered:November 2007
Location: Bulgaria

There's a drawback though - while surrounded by a gas area they're also getting a bit harder to hit.

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Staff Sergeant
Re: Mustard gas is useless[message #206048] Sat, 10 January 2009 20:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Watchman is currently offline Watchman

 
Messages:101
Registered:August 2008
Location: Philippines
I'd never bother trying to shoot back at enemies behind trees anyway, I usually use mustard when someone catches me in a bad position. Whilst they're moving to another position or waiting for that mustard to clear, I'd already moved to my group to a better defended spot.

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Sergeant
Re: Mustard gas is useless[message #206056] Sat, 10 January 2009 21:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
MikeThePro is currently offline MikeThePro

 
Messages:175
Registered:November 2007
Location: Bulgaria

Understood.

I just use grenades-fragmentation,TG,MG when there're 2 or more enemies at once so I can reduce their advantage. That made me think of the idea.

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Staff Sergeant
Re: Mustard gas is useless[message #206087] Sun, 11 January 2009 12:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Starwalker is currently offline Starwalker

 
Messages:759
Registered:October 2005
Location: Hannover, Germany
if an enemy sits in a mustard gas cloud and is not affected, follow up with a fragmentation grenade, that will damage his gasmask...

Enemies behind trees, if near enough can be blown away from their cover with a well-placed mini-grenade (if you are near enough).

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First Sergeant

Re: Mustard gas is useless[message #206105] Sun, 11 January 2009 15:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lockie is currently offline lockie

 
Messages:3721
Registered:February 2006
Location: Scotland
Quote:
if an enemy sits in a mustard gas cloud and is not affected, follow up with a fragmentation grenade, that will damage his gasmask...


What actually determines when a redshirt wears a mask ? I usually seem to get caught by mustard gas when least expecting it Smile

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Captain

Re: Mustard gas is useless[message #206110] Sun, 11 January 2009 16:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shadow is currently offline Shadow

 
Messages:39
Registered:December 2008
Location: Argentina
Could be random but more likely the higher the game progress level.

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Private 1st Class
Re: Mustard gas is useless[message #206138] Mon, 12 January 2009 01:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sphinx is currently offline sphinx

 
Messages:42
Registered:February 2007
Yes... mustard gas is fairly useless against a camper enemy with a gasmask that's in good condition. Either weaken the mask with frag grenades, blow a hole to the wall if possible or, my favorite, use smoke grenades, and from the smoke lob other grenades at the enemy's assumed position. You'll hear an "Oomph!" when the grenade hits. Or under the cover of thick black smoke you could move your mercs into position, waiting for the smoke to clear. This is almost equally risky as just walking into the room, however if you have multiple mercs in place inside the smoke, you might catch an interrupt should the enemy get the first turn after the smoke has cleared.

Btw, mortar mustard grenades are awesome at Drassen counterattack. Do try the "awesome" option for Bobby Ray equipment sometimes. Might wanna give yourself some extra cash too...
EDIT: or just edit the xml files to get mustard gas earlier... or gas masks later.

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Corporal
Re: Mustard gas is useless[message #206172] Mon, 12 January 2009 15:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
MikeThePro is currently offline MikeThePro

 
Messages:175
Registered:November 2007
Location: Bulgaria

The mortar gas shells are really awesome and can kill a target with a 100% condition of his gas mask.

But they're a bit risky to use in urban areas where civilians just walk around when you least need it.

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Staff Sergeant
Re: Mustard gas is useless[message #206174] Mon, 12 January 2009 15:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
systemfehler

 
Messages:117
Registered:September 2007
Location: Hanover, Germany
Not only civilians, but also militia.

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Sergeant
Re: Mustard gas is useless[message #206206] Tue, 13 January 2009 01:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lockie is currently offline lockie

 
Messages:3721
Registered:February 2006
Location: Scotland
Quote:
What actually determines when a redshirt wears a mask ?


Soooo , no-one seems to know hmmm ?

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Captain

Re: Mustard gas is useless[message #206210] Tue, 13 January 2009 01:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
MikeThePro is currently offline MikeThePro

 
Messages:175
Registered:November 2007
Location: Bulgaria

I agree with Shadow86, could be the progress level. At a point where redshirts are getting rare, but well equipped.

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Staff Sergeant
Re: Mustard gas is useless[message #206249] Tue, 13 January 2009 18:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lockie is currently offline lockie

 
Messages:3721
Registered:February 2006
Location: Scotland
Wear mask = vision loss though ,hmmmm ,so how come they seem to spot me AND throw mustard all at once ( usually night fights I'm in ) :whoknows:

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Captain

Re: Mustard gas is useless[message #206250] Tue, 13 January 2009 18:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Will Gates is currently offline Will Gates

 
Messages:1012
Registered:September 2006
Location: Far far away.
That's because you're not the messiah, just a very naughty boy.

2 or 3 x m-gas does it. 1st one eats a bit of the mask. 2nd one starts to make them go Ouch.

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Sergeant Major
Re: Mustard gas is useless[message #206260] Tue, 13 January 2009 21:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lockie is currently offline lockie

 
Messages:3721
Registered:February 2006
Location: Scotland
Quote:
That's because you're not the messiah, just a very naughty boy.


The old python stuff still lives , well , Life of Brian anyway Very Happy , tv shows were on recently , didn't even raise a smile ....

Quote:
2 or 3 x m-gas does it. 1st one eats a bit of the mask. 2nd one starts to make them go Ouch.
Again , though , what is the criteria for them to wear masks ? Is it a certain behaviour pattern or just as they start using gas , and why can't I see them first if I've nvg on ?

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Captain

Re: Mustard gas is useless[message #206270] Tue, 13 January 2009 23:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Watchman is currently offline Watchman

 
Messages:101
Registered:August 2008
Location: Philippines
lockie
Again , though , what is the criteria for them to wear masks ? Is it a certain behaviour pattern or just as they start using gas , and why can't I see them first if I've nvg on ?


At the first part, may it's just random just like some of the IMP items?
As for the second, are you wearing a gasmask/sun goggles else besides the NVG? If not maybe, because the mercs you picked aren't good in Night Ops and/or they're making to much noise. Enemies are more likely to get alerted by noise more than seeing an enemy in my experience.

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Sergeant
Re: Mustard gas is useless[message #206273] Tue, 13 January 2009 23:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lockie is currently offline lockie

 
Messages:3721
Registered:February 2006
Location: Scotland
Quote:
are you wearing a gasmask/sun goggles else besides the NVG?


Nup !

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Captain

Re: Mustard gas is useless[message #206306] Wed, 14 January 2009 11:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
cougar

 
Messages:254
Registered:March 2000
lockie
Wear mask = vision loss though ,hmmmm ,so how come they seem to spot me AND throw mustard all at once ( usually night fights I'm in ) :whoknows:


Wearing a mask does not give you a vision loss. Not in range neither in tunnel vision.

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Master Sergeant
Re: Mustard gas is useless[message #206308] Wed, 14 January 2009 11:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Watchman is currently offline Watchman

 
Messages:101
Registered:August 2008
Location: Philippines
^ It doesn't? Hmm... looks like I have something to do in the XML editor. I guess a deductions of 10-20 on General sight and 50 on range should do right?

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Sergeant
Re: Mustard gas is useless[message #206310] Wed, 14 January 2009 11:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
cougar

 
Messages:254
Registered:March 2000
Well that is up to each and everyone to decide. Personally I don't think a mask should limit vision too much but it should definitely have a negative effect on BP and/or AP (preferably BP). In real life a good modern mask does not decrease the field of view too much and it doesn't decrease range at all but it sure makes it harder to run.

That said a new mask could be added with less tunnel vision if one decided to add some to the existing mask, a good candidate here would be the MCU-2/P or the XM50 JSGPM . Both use a singe lens instead of two separate lenses, giving a somewhat wider FOV.

Furthermore the description on the current mask is completely screwed up, the M17 series is American not Russian like the description says. The Russians (and USSR) used other designs such as those seen here (Russian Federation) and here (USSR)

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Master Sergeant
Re: Mustard gas is useless[message #206311] Wed, 14 January 2009 12:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Will Gates is currently offline Will Gates

 
Messages:1012
Registered:September 2006
Location: Far far away.
Disagree. I used old fashioned "frog eyed" gas mask in cadet days and reduced vision was real problem as was misting up when overheated. More recently used "cyclops" which was much better and had intake tracks around the lense to auto-demist, good design and hardly any loss of vision.

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Sergeant Major
Re: Mustard gas is useless[message #206313] Wed, 14 January 2009 12:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
cougar

 
Messages:254
Registered:March 2000
Yes some tunnel vision will be seen but no reduction in sight range (like I said above). I believe the JSGPM had a target FOV of about 80%, so it will be a bit less with older models. Misting will be a problem with nearly all masks as they should be sealed , otherwise they would lose their purpose.

As for the game I believe I read somewhere here that stacking tunnel vision could be tricky (mask + scope). And the BP/AP decrease is more important than the vision penalty IMO. On the other hand the mask could have both of these as it is not something that should be worn all the time anyway. Masks are not worn all the time, only at higher CBRN alert levels.

The thing is that we won't get a realistic usage of the gas mask unless we add an NBC suit against mustard gas. A gas mask alone will not protect against mustard gas.

Besides the use of the mustard gas is pretty unrealistic too. The developers should have just named it H4-A5 Poison Gas (or other invented name) and given it a description like this:

H4-A5 Poison Gas
Developed by the weapons technicians in Orta the H4-A5 Poison Gas is a non-blistering, biodegradable poison gas that target and destroys the alveoli of the lungs. Yellow in color H4-A5 was developed for the Queen's Elite for use against rebels hiding in cellars and tunnels. Without a gas mask unconsciousness will set in within minutes with death following shortly afterwards.


It would be a much better description of the gas that currently is called mustard gas. I guess they used mustard gas because people were familiar with it. The truth is that the vast majority doesn't know how mustard gas work or what it is. Even the description of the mustard gas in the game is wrong on several points.

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Master Sergeant
Re: Mustard gas is useless[message #206314] Wed, 14 January 2009 12:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Will Gates is currently offline Will Gates

 
Messages:1012
Registered:September 2006
Location: Far far away.
Quite. It's more like old fashioned chlorine gas. Misting really not problem on modern masks, the air comes through filter then around the lense as you breath and the exhaust valves are lower down making a one way flow keeping moisture off the lense.

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Sergeant Major
Re: Mustard gas is useless[message #206315] Wed, 14 January 2009 12:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
cougar

 
Messages:254
Registered:March 2000
Misting will sadly be a problem if worn during a long period or during heavy physical exertion as the "auto-demist" can keep up with the misting from breathing but not always from heavy sweating.

That leads me to a quite funny story:

We had a CBRN exercise a hot and steamy afternoon and one of the guys had severe problem with misting so when we set off for the 2km run he could barely see anything. After about 500 m he almost ran into a thick patch of bushes, it was that bad. He was stopped by some members of his squad though. Smile

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Master Sergeant
Re: Mustard gas is useless[message #206317] Wed, 14 January 2009 13:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Watchman is currently offline Watchman

 
Messages:101
Registered:August 2008
Location: Philippines
Lol... how many did he knock down?

Thanks for the quick info guys.

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Sergeant
Re: Mustard gas is useless[message #206338] Wed, 14 January 2009 18:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lockie is currently offline lockie

 
Messages:3721
Registered:February 2006
Location: Scotland
Quote:
Poster: cougar
Subject: Re: Mustard gas is useless

Originally Posted By: lockie
Wear mask = vision loss though ,hmmmm ,so how come they seem to spot me AND throw mustard all at once ( usually night fights I'm in )

Wearing a mask does not give you a vision loss. Not in range neither in tunnel vision.


but at night , as I have already stated I usually sneak about , you cannot wear mask and NVG , so loss of vision range to enemy while lobbing gas at me from out of MY vision range while I'm wearing nvg , seems NOT to happen !
Anyway , originally I asked what triggered enemy to use gas ?

Bloomin lost my own self there Very Happy

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Captain

Re: Mustard gas is useless[message #206354] Wed, 14 January 2009 22:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Badbru is currently offline Badbru

 
Messages:63
Registered:January 2008
Location: Perth Australia
lockie
Quote:
Poster: cougar
Subject: Re: Mustard gas is useless

Originally Posted By: lockie
Wear mask = vision loss though ,hmmmm ,so how come they seem to spot me AND throw mustard all at once ( usually night fights I'm in )

Wearing a mask does not give you a vision loss. Not in range neither in tunnel vision.


but at night , as I have already stated I usually sneak about , you cannot wear mask and NVG , so loss of vision range to enemy while lobbing gas at me from out of MY vision range while I'm wearing nvg , seems NOT to happen !
Anyway , originally I asked what triggered enemy to use gas ?

Bloomin lost my own self there Very Happy


What version are you playing Lochie? All of mine wear gas masks and NVG's if at night and Shift + N,
swap to sunglasses and Gas mask during the day, so, you can wear Gas Mask and NVG within the game . ???

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Corporal
Re: Mustard gas is useless[message #206358] Wed, 14 January 2009 22:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lockie is currently offline lockie

 
Messages:3721
Registered:February 2006
Location: Scotland
You are of course correct ! Wow , how long have I been certain that mask / nvg was a nono ?
Live and learn , thanks Badbru Embarrassed

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Captain

Re: Mustard gas is useless[message #206366] Thu, 15 January 2009 04:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kaerar is currently offline Kaerar

 
Messages:2022
Registered:January 2003
Location: Australia :D
That was an original restriction I think from the vanilla days. My issue is I use Extended Ears on most of my squad so I don't use Masks. I am making some new gfx for Gas Masks at the moment classic Frog Eye and a newer full face hard mask with single visor and NVG capable. Would make things more interesting Wink

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Lieutenant

Re: Mustard gas is useless[message #209553] Sun, 01 March 2009 16:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
viracicha is currently offline viracicha

 
Messages:102
Registered:November 2007
i killed bug's queen with 1 mustard

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Sergeant
Re: Mustard gas is useless[message #209566] Sun, 01 March 2009 21:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
AmnesiaLab is currently offline AmnesiaLab

 
Messages:24
Registered:February 2009
Location: Florida
There should be some sort of aiming penalty while wearing a gas mask. I shot 40/40 and qualified as expert with the M16 in the Army. Firing with a gas mask on, though, was a completely different experience. Reflex shots were no problem, but anything at range got progressively worse because the mask prevented me from sighting my weapon the same way I had zeroed it in.

Granted, I've been out of the Army since the 90's, so maybe they've got better masks nowadays. All I know is I'm an expert rifleman, but you put a gas mask on me and I can't shoot for shit at range.

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Private 1st Class
Re: Mustard gas is useless[message #210261] Sat, 14 March 2009 23:45 Go to previous message
MikeThePro is currently offline MikeThePro

 
Messages:175
Registered:November 2007
Location: Bulgaria

I kinda agree, but from what I've seen here and there nowadays' masks are way more comfortable for a soldier to operate than older models used to be. The other side of the coin is that it's unlikely to find these in Arulco.

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Staff Sergeant
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