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How to use smoke grenades?[message #240182] Thu, 17 December 2009 00:23 Go to next message
Dougster

 
Messages:27
Registered:August 2004
Location: Chatting with Hans
I've played many games of JA2 over the years, but I've never mastered the smoke grenade. I find them all the time and end up with tons of them. The enemy seems to hurl them at you just like it was a frag grenade, but my understanding was that smoke grenades were supposed to give you concealment. For instance to get close to a tank, you theoretically would want to run up to it through smoke so it couldn't see you.

Except I've never been able to make this work. All that seems to happen is if I am in the smoke then I can't see anything, and the enemy still manages to shoot me.

Maybe this is fixed in 1.13? I seem like I can't hit targets cloaked in a smoke cloud anymore. What do you do, drop a smoke grenade at your feet when you are in trouble and then make a hasty retreat? Throw it at the enemy?

I'm just curious about how to use these ubiquitous things properly... maybe I could improve my ability to defeat and disgrace the enemies!
Re: How to use smoke grenades?[message #240187] Thu, 17 December 2009 01:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Logisteric

 
Messages:3402
Registered:December 2008
Location: B
best use for smoke grenades: sell them


it does work - you can lay a smoke screen (try it with a badly wounded merc)
Re: How to use smoke grenades?[message #240189] Thu, 17 December 2009 02:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dougster

 
Messages:27
Registered:August 2004
Location: Chatting with Hans
Maybe what needs to happen is have the area of effect of the smoke grenades doubled from that of the other gas grenades, that way they would really introduce massive disruption into the battlefield and be a potent weapon to screw up well laid plans.
Re: How to use smoke grenades?[message #240195] Thu, 17 December 2009 07:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gorro der GrĂ¼ne

 
Messages:1539
Registered:March 2009
Location: Broadwurschd-City
I always use the yellow smoke grenades

Smoke and teargas are nothing than merchandize
Re: How to use smoke grenades?[message #240200] Thu, 17 December 2009 10:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
herb

 
Messages:417
Registered:September 2007
Location: Slovenija
yep yellow smokes are usefull others are worth nothing
Re: How to use smoke grenades?[message #240212] Thu, 17 December 2009 18:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tao

 
Messages:2137
Registered:August 2009
Location: The Known Universe
I use whatever, because I am Sun Tzu's reincarnation.
Re: How to use smoke grenades?[message #240213] Thu, 17 December 2009 18:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Logisteric

 
Messages:3402
Registered:December 2008
Location: B
craigmsandy
I use whatever, because I am Sun Tzu's reincarnation.



sure, you didn't want to say (mao) tse-tung?
Re: How to use smoke grenades?[message #240214] Thu, 17 December 2009 19:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tao

 
Messages:2137
Registered:August 2009
Location: The Known Universe
Hell no! He is what killed the exceptional Chinese way of living!
Re: How to use smoke grenades?[message #240229] Thu, 17 December 2009 23:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Loucipher

 
Messages:161
Registered:October 2009
craigmsandy
I use whatever, because I am Sun Tzu's reincarnation.


Yeah right Very Happy And all your power comes from your gun barrel.

Seriously though (on the use of smoke grenades):
I find them useful in 1.13 to cut LOS between my troops and the enemy, especially rooftop snipers or those with superior-range weapons. Cutting LOS lets me close in on these enemies, allowing a fair fighting chance.

With some cool item mods out there, almost any piece of would-be garbage can have a potential use...
Re: How to use smoke grenades?[message #240241] Fri, 18 December 2009 03:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sincleanser

 
Messages:65
Registered:November 2009
Location: Houston

I'm with Dougster, I went and increased the starting and ending ranges of the smoke grenade smoke effect by 1.5 and that really actually made them immediately useful, without surpassing any of the other grenades. It simply made them useable the turn they are thrown, or the turn after, instead of four or five turns later.

Now they can be used for retreating or advancing tactics, or as a smoke screen to block sniper los. Enemies will still burst fire through it like crazy, but they really really hit a lot less.
Re: How to use smoke grenades?[message #240246] Fri, 18 December 2009 10:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
herb

 
Messages:417
Registered:September 2007
Location: Slovenija
Problem of all granades is the throwing range. Enemy granade always goes longer than mine so I don't use them much. I prefer granade launcher
Re: How to use smoke grenades?[message #240260] Fri, 18 December 2009 14:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tyco

 
Messages:189
Registered:September 2001
Location: Be'er Sheva, Israel
I note a destinced lack of suggestion of how to actually use grenades ingame.

Throw smoke grenades at an enemy like a normal grenade. Even in the first two turns the smoke will break up enemy line of sight and will force them to move.

Moving into the clowd is not recommended, though you can take advantage of the smoke and creep up closer on the enemy, giving you a better firing position when the smoke clears. Just dont charge through the smoke because once you step out of its cover you will most likely be interrupted.

Smoke grenades can be very usful in gaining entry into a tight space covered by enemies, but its most effective as a means of breaking the enemy's line of sight. Toss it at the enemy or to an area you want to conceal from the enemy's line of sight.
Re: How to use smoke grenades?[message #240264] Fri, 18 December 2009 21:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
SmokinGun

 
Messages:53
Registered:June 2007
Location: Land of New Rising Sun
Sincleanser
I went and increased the starting and ending ranges of the smoke grenade smoke effect by 1.5 and that really actually made them immediately useful, without surpassing any of the other grenades. It simply made them useable the turn they are thrown, or the turn after, instead of four or five turns later.


How does one go about changing those stats...what files do you open to edit them? Sounds like a great change to make them more useful, Thanks.
Re: How to use smoke grenades?[message #240265] Fri, 18 December 2009 22:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sincleanser

 
Messages:65
Registered:November 2009
Location: Houston

Quote:
How does one go about changing those stats...what files do you open to edit them? Sounds like a great change to make them more useful, Thanks.


I just edited them in the XML Editor.

1) Open XML Editor
2) Select Items > Show > By Class > Grenades
3) Find "Smoke Grenade". Mine is ID 151
4) Double click "Smoke Grenade" graphic to open it's data file
5) Open Explosives tab
6) Edit Starting Radius
7) Edit Ending Radius
Cool Click Apply at the bottom of the item data box
9) Click OK
10) Start chucking some smokes!
Re: How to use smoke grenades?[message #240273] Sat, 19 December 2009 01:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
SmokinGun

 
Messages:53
Registered:June 2007
Location: Land of New Rising Sun
Thank You :bomb:

What value #'s do you suggest using for start radius/final radius? Does the increase in value= faster use and greater coverage?

Tanks again.

[Updated on: Sun, 20 December 2009 21:10] by Moderator

Re: How to use smoke grenades?[message #240277] Sat, 19 December 2009 06:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Saibot

 
Messages:201
Registered:September 2009
Never seen yellow smoke, is that part of a mod, or is it sci-fi tagged or something? As far as how to use them, I find they work best in open areas, where if I'm taking fire from a flank I chuck one there while I deal with what's in front of me. The enemy usually goes around it right into my kill zone.
Re: How to use smoke grenades?[message #240279] Sat, 19 December 2009 11:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Logisteric

 
Messages:3402
Registered:December 2008
Location: B
yellow smoke = mustard gas :wave:
Re: How to use smoke grenades?[message #240294] Sun, 20 December 2009 00:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Saibot

 
Messages:201
Registered:September 2009
Haha, duh. I was thinking of Conflict:Vietnam where you had red and yellow smoke grenades.
Re: How to use smoke grenades?[message #245548] Sun, 28 February 2010 07:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
FatCatAttack

 
Messages:5
Registered:February 2010
First post here and I'm trying to figure out smoke grenades myself at the moment. Is there an accuracy penalty when you leave smoke? I notice if you peek out it seems harder to hit enemies than it is for them to hit you. I had MD miss a dude about 5 squares away emerging from smoke with 20 range weapon and he had around 75-78 mark at the time and this is in the SOG mod where I tried to do LZ Astro in the daytime which is impossible to approach the treeline without created cover and it worked getting there but once in the smoke I couldn't do anything and when it left I couldn't go anywhere safe since that whole side of the map is filled with 32 enemies. Is there anything in the source about smoke like some sort of trick to peek out? Seems like the best way to use it is breaching buildings (assuming no one is DIRECTLY behind the door) and creating a cloud and wait in it until it clears completely. I've never been interrupted that way. So yeah I'm trying to make smoke work since I want to do more day ops stuff since I think the game looks ugly as hell under the night palette and the light stick turkey shoot get's old.
Re: How to use smoke grenades?[message #245689] Mon, 01 March 2010 16:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
usrbid

 
Messages:1565
Registered:December 2008
Hi FatCatAttack, Welcome to the board!!

Some will provide cover in the tiles the smoke is in, think of it as tall gras - that comes in a can you can throw and it grows instantly and goes away after a while.

But joke aside, this is how it works, if someone is really good, then they still can shoot you in the smoke. It probably is easier to shoot from a roof at someone standing in smoke.

I had a weird thing happen where an enemy went prone and could shoot me, sort of like the smoke is a little away from the ground, but I am not sure if this was just a CTH fluke.

Bottom line is, smoke helps but is not ideal concealment.


Re: How to use smoke grenades?[message #245772] Mon, 01 March 2010 22:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
FatCatAttack

 
Messages:5
Registered:February 2010
I think I experienced the z axis thing before but this isn't while I was inside the center but on the outer ring of smoke since you can see in and out through one smoked tile this is when the enemy is spotted. Trying both standing on the smoked tile and leaving it my gunshots seem to go awry. I know sometimes the game can throw weird streaks at you and I haven't done much experimenting yet (need to find a good map to try it out more)which is why I was curious if there was some kind of hidden penalty, and if the penalty was to represent "stinging eyes" from smoke and if the gas mask would help for example (note to self need to try that).

Also since you brought it up does concealment count on decreasing you chances of getting hit if you're standing directly on the tile or is only if it's place between you and the shooter? For instance if there is tuff of tall grass (or a smoke puff) and I'm sitting directly on it will I benefit from it's concealment or only when "behind" it?

I know I'm rambling on since I'm excited at trying to find news ways of playing Very Happy but I really want to use smoke to perform assaults in daytime open field maps (like the "desert" sectors in vanilla)and wanted to know if this was possible without taking lots of damage/dying. So far in SOG 69 there's a refreshing amount of cover but the hot LZ Astro really got me thinking on the viability of daytime ops in the outdoors specifically with little real cover to take advantage of.

[Updated on: Mon, 01 March 2010 22:27] by Moderator

Re: How to use smoke grenades?[message #246591] Wed, 10 March 2010 07:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
usrbid

 
Messages:1565
Registered:December 2008
Quote:
if there was some kind of hidden penalty, and if the penalty was to represent "stinging eyes" from smoke and if the gas mask would help for example


As far as I know smoke does not impair the soldier directly, only indirectly by providing a cover penalty to the chance to hit.

You can test by using GABBI cheats and running a test battle. I usually teleport to Drassen airport, clear it of enemies with Alt+O, give me cheat money, buy stuff at BR, wait until it arrives, and then attack Drassen center to test stuff.


Quote:
does concealment count on decreasing you chances of getting hit if you're standing directly on the tile or is only if it's place between you and the shooter


From my play experience standing in a smoke tile does already provide cover penalty to chance to hit, meaning the enemy is at the edge of the smoke cloud in a tile with smoke and there are no other smoke tiles between him and me. However this is my game experience only, I haven't checked this in the code.

So for example when there are two enemies, one standing outside the smoke cloud, one just one tile in the smoke cloud, both have the same distance, my merc may miss the guy in the smoke while they hit the guy not in the smoke. This situation happens actually frequently in night combat as enemies tend to cluster in groups.


Quote:
I know I'm rambling on ... I really want to use smoke to perform assaults in daytime open field maps (like the "desert" sectors in vanilla)and wanted to know if this was possible without taking lots of damage/dying


Rambling is ok, this is what the forum is for, to talk and ask questions.

To answer your question, smoke is *not* like night, smoke is like gras. (I sound like a martial arts instructor) Smile

To get a noticable effect in game you will probably have to throw a lot of smoke grenades, like maybe a dozen or so, talking about your desert day attack scenario.

What I mean by "gras and not night" is, that an elite (in Vanilla they are really, really good) probably has high stats, meaning that high stats *can* overcome cover chance to hit penalties, in turn meaning they may be able to shoot you in the smoke, makes sense?

All the red shirt goons will miss, but elites may be able to hit you every other shot. Also they can throw grenades and hurt you that way.

Night is completely different, this is because the game is not allowed to target anything it cannot see. Unless your gun flash gives away your position or someone sees you and acts as a spotter. The game cannot just target a square (like you can).

For example if you kill everyone who sees you at night, the game has no way of ever shooting at you. This is assuming you move back 1-2 tiles due to your gun flash and so on. If you can maintain an enemy free circle around your team at night, a safe zone, there is simply no way for the game to harm your team.

For example the enemies cannot shoot mortars, launch rockets, throw grenades etc. into random tiles just to try to injure your team, the game always needs a valid reason to target a tile, at least this is my understanding.


Re: How to use smoke grenades?[message #246663] Wed, 10 March 2010 20:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tao

 
Messages:2137
Registered:August 2009
Location: The Known Universe
Dieter
Quote:
if there was some kind of hidden penalty, and if the penalty was to represent "stinging eyes" from smoke and if the gas mask would help for example


As far as I know smoke does not impair the soldier directly, only indirectly by providing a cover penalty to the chance to hit.


I remember in an older version where smoke actually caused -1 AP a turn.
Re: How to use smoke grenades?[message #247115] Tue, 16 March 2010 05:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
FatCatAttack

 
Messages:5
Registered:February 2010
Does the cover penalty affect the soldier inside the cover? I've done more experimenting but I think I'll have to try a different version of the game after I get through with SOG. Seems in the Vietnam mod there were more tweaks than just the new AP changes, moving and shooting is just harder to do period. I'll have to make a brief stop over in vanilla to be sure before I move on to Urban chaos.
Re: How to use smoke grenades?[message #247122] Tue, 16 March 2010 10:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Logisteric

 
Messages:3402
Registered:December 2008
Location: B
sometimes they sneak at you when you stay in the smoke - get your guys form a circle an put all guns to 'burst' - i even smoked me in for that reason, if there were too many redshirts arround
Re: How to use smoke grenades?[message #255100] Mon, 28 June 2010 23:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
MikeJahn

 
Messages:53
Registered:June 2010
The way I found how to use smoke is defensively - smoke mortar shells are actually very good for minimizing militia losses, this is because the enemy usually has longer ranged weapons than the militia so dropping smoke onto a formation of enemies allows the militia to move in and light the enemy up as they run out of smoke.

Smoke isn't to be underestimated, it can really turn an impossible defense into cake walk.
Re: How to use smoke grenades?[message #269078] Wed, 29 December 2010 13:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
nollan

 
Messages:112
Registered:July 2006
Location: Le Su
I use them as defensive means as well. If I for some stupid reason find myself in a bad spot, i.e. hurt, pinned down or unconscious with a hidden enemy your designated grenade chucker can provide some shelter by covering the hurt locker in smoke before launching a rescue. Basically, as above poster, you use it to cut off the line of sight.

(Please be advised that according to Murphy's Law the only guy in your squad carrying a smoke will be the very same that's unconscious)

Also, I've used them when on full assault if I need to pass a hot zone or choke point (like entering a building): plant the smoke, run like hell and hope for the best beyond the smoke screen. If this is a very succesful tactic or safe for that matter, can be discussed.
Re: How to use smoke grenades?[message #269083] Wed, 29 December 2010 14:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Buns

 
Messages:676
Registered:September 2010
nollan
Please be advised that according to Murphy's Law the only guy in your squad carrying a smoke will be the very same that's unconscious
Yes, exactly (by the same law your medic will be the first one to be wounded). In my team each merc is carrying one smoke grenade. These are indeed used to give seriously woundeds shelter.

Theoretically they can also be used offensiv to cover your approach at daytime, but I wouldn't waste APs for throwing smoke grenades during assaults. Apart from the smoke taking a few turns to cover a larger region, I would always prefer an unobscured line of sight on the enemy; use surpressive fire instead.

Mustard gas and TG can do the same job, but have the downside that your mercs, all militia around, as well as the civs, need to have gas masks. Well, there is one who by guarantee is wearing a mask when you start gasing the sector: that's the enemy. In general you shouldn't burden yourself with those toys, and also shouldn't bother with the shell or 40mm versions of mustard gas and tear gas.
Re: How to use smoke grenades?[message #269084] Wed, 29 December 2010 14:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Logisteric

 
Messages:3402
Registered:December 2008
Location: B
just speaking of smeag's mod here:

well, as you can now custom-load launchers (and usually get out two shots) - it's light-he-yellow smoke-he - the he-rounds break the enemy's gas masks or if civis are unimportand napalm from the start
Re: How to use smoke grenades?[message #269086] Wed, 29 December 2010 14:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Buns

 
Messages:676
Registered:September 2010
Mustard gas does damage gas masks as well, at least when being exposed longer to it, like in Orta basement. Even though I don't know how much damage a mask has to have before it stops from protecting the wearer.
Re: How to use smoke grenades?[message #269118] Thu, 30 December 2010 03:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
usrbid

 
Messages:1565
Registered:December 2008
A 99% condition mask has (supposedly) a 1% chance to let some / all of the damage through. I can confirm that behavior from playing. I could also swear that I have seen 100% condition gas masks let tear gas through if you wait long enough in the gas.


Re: How to use smoke grenades?[message #269125] Thu, 30 December 2010 11:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Hawkeye

 
Messages:1765
Registered:October 2005
Location: Australia
Like Nollan I use smoke as a way of cover when patching up seriously wounded mercs that are down. Sometimes it will give me enough time to get them conscious to move out before I'm pinned down by more fire.

I also took note with the encounter with Mike in Vanilla JA2 when they houses would fill with smoke, I found this handy when clearing occupied enemies in buildings by filling the room with smoke then sending in higher agility mercs to hopefully spring on unsuspecting enemies.

Battling tanks are also a good candidate for using smoke, throw a couple of smoke grenades to block their view before getting a Heavy weapons specialist able to stand in that exact spot to take the tank out from without being bombarded himself.


Re: How to use smoke grenades?[message #269130] Thu, 30 December 2010 14:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Buns

 
Messages:676
Registered:September 2010
Dieter
A 99% condition mask has (supposedly) a 1% chance to let some / all of the damage through. I can confirm that behavior from playing. I could also swear that I have seen 100% condition gas masks let tear gas through if you wait long enough in the gas.
Ah, interessting. I had so far only noticed that gas masks do take damage in mustard gas, but hadn't an incedent with gas getting through. So I wondered in what condition those mask have to be to work at all.
Re: How to use smoke grenades?[message #269197] Sat, 01 January 2011 12:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
MikeJahn

 
Messages:53
Registered:June 2010
Considering that the enemy rarely has gas masks in good working order mustard gas still knocks 95% of enemies down at the very least and is thus an effective all around weapon.
Re: How to use smoke grenades?[message #269277] Mon, 03 January 2011 13:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
nollan

 
Messages:112
Registered:July 2006
Location: Le Su
Thor was caught without a gas mask the other day when a blackshirt hit him with a ridicously far and accurate canister of tear gas. I only happened to pack smoke 'nades in my 40mm launcher at the time so I simply just clouded the blackshirt and his friend until the tear gas cleared and I could mobilize some help for poor puke-covered Thor.

In retrospect, a couple of HE shells or something more painful would have done the job in a better and more spectacular way.
Re: How to use smoke grenades?[message #269278] Mon, 03 January 2011 13:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Logisteric

 
Messages:3402
Registered:December 2008
Location: B
napalm
Re: How to use smoke grenades?[message #269289] Mon, 03 January 2011 16:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Buns

 
Messages:676
Registered:September 2010
Something you realy don't need is 40 or 60mm TG or mustard gas: when you hit a troop of enemies, preferably black shirts, with a HE grenade you'll certainly get a couple of additional explosions from the grenades the bad guys have; and certainly you'll have at least one with a TG or MG grenade in that group.
Re: How to use smoke grenades?[message #269290] Mon, 03 January 2011 16:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
nollan

 
Messages:112
Registered:July 2006
Location: Le Su
So the gas-grenades go off as well? I have no memory of that ever happening but it's maybe a new feature?
Re: How to use smoke grenades?[message #269291] Mon, 03 January 2011 16:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Logisteric

 
Messages:3402
Registered:December 2008
Location: B
well - i toned that down, as it's sh*t as hell; if grenades where so easy to trigger no army'd use them

anfortunately thre's just a range from 0 to 10 and most nades have a volatility of 1 (just a few have two) - we need better finetuning for that
Re: How to use smoke grenades?[message #269293] Mon, 03 January 2011 16:34 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Tao

 
Messages:2137
Registered:August 2009
Location: The Known Universe
Logisteric
well - i toned that down, as it's sh*t as hell; if grenades where so easy to trigger no army'd use them

anfortunately thre's just a range from 0 to 10 and most nades have a volatility of 1 (just a few have two) - we need better finetuning for that


Yes. When one throws a grenade, they are almost guaranteed to trigger another chanin of explosions.
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