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negative APs[message #243104] Wed, 03 February 2010 18:19 Go to next message
redgun

 
Messages:190
Registered:March 2007
Location: Austria
Recently we noticed that, mercs get a lot of negative APs easily. Is there some way to change that?

For example some mercs get -30 AP after being hit once and then they can't move for a turn at least and get shot to death. Sad

[Updated on: Wed, 03 February 2010 18:21] by Moderator

Re: negative APs[message #243110] Wed, 03 February 2010 18:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tao

 
Messages:2140
Registered:August 2009
Location: The Known Universe
Is that a H.A.M. 2.8 integration by chance?
Re: negative APs[message #243116] Wed, 03 February 2010 19:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
the scorpion

 
Messages:1841
Registered:September 2004
Location: CH
redgun
Recently we noticed that, mercs get a lot of negative APs easily. Is there some way to change that?

For example some mercs get -30 AP after being hit once and then they can't move for a turn at least and get shot to death. Sad


yeah, i remember losing a merc to that ... err... issue a long time ago. Was shot with some sort of peashooter for little damage but was hit consistently for like 5-6 turns so he just couldn't move away from the spot he was on to retreat in safety or to advance an attack the camper that did the shooting.


I think this bug has been in 1.13 since before HAM, i think it's legacy 100-AP integration, but could very likely be a HAM issue as well.

To fix: use this command in apbpconstants.ini AP_MIN_LIMIT =
and set it to a value that makes sense for your max AP value. For the 25 AP system, which i strongly encourage to use in MP for simplicity and accessibility reasons, i currently use -5, but for the 100 AP system you use an even smaller number like maybe -15 or -20.

Other ways to tackle the AP issue include energy boosters and reduced AP usage for drinking canteens.
Re: negative APs[message #243120] Wed, 03 February 2010 19:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Headrock

 
Messages:1783
Registered:March 2006
Location: Jerusalem
It isn't a bug, as you said yourself there's an INI setting for it. Why it's set to negative values by default though is beyond me, it should only be set negative when someone explicitly chooses to activate HAM suppression features, in which case APs should go negative often (although suppression fire on your enemies, by definition, is then meant to counter the above threat to your injured characters).

BTW, it's always been possible to go into negative APs in vanilla JA2, just not as many.


Re: negative APs[message #243125] Wed, 03 February 2010 20:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
the scorpion

 
Messages:1841
Registered:September 2004
Location: CH
We all know it's been possible to have negative ap's in vanilla ja2, but only when being shot upon and diving to cover (a behaviour that has seemingly been disabled in 1.13 and then in some different way reintroduced by suppression in HAM). Just that in vanilla ja2 the mercs were making cool comments, in HAM you get a yellow line at the side of the screen instead Sad

however in contemporary 1.13 (i mean MP 1.5 to be clear) you can reach negative AP's e.g. when climbing over a fence, when bandaging mercs, when turning to shoot and when hit. Even with suppression firmly disabled. So while the sheer fact that you can go into negative AP's is a feature, the entire AP displayed vs. AP used system is in a quite disastrous state.

The default 1.13's has AP_MIN_LIMIT at -100 btw (at leasst the probably outdated apbpconstants.ini that i just looked up) which seems a bit odd especially when suppression isn't used. But certain design decisions seem to be expected for the player to take unless he wants to play und unplayable game.
Re: negative APs[message #243204] Thu, 04 February 2010 15:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
redgun

 
Messages:190
Registered:March 2007
Location: Austria
;***********************************************************************
;* This is a divisor so we don't want to adjust it's value.            *!
;* It adjusts how many AP per damage point taken are lost.             *!
;***********************************************************************
AP_GET_WOUNDED_DIVISOR = 1


what value to i put here in order to prevent losing too many APs?
Re: negative APs[message #243220] Thu, 04 February 2010 17:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
the scorpion

 
Messages:1841
Registered:September 2004
Location: CH
i asked the same question to rowa21 some months ago Smile He told me to ask ChrisL, with whom i don't have contact. So i don't know.

Based on the looks of it and the comments, i'd say the higher the value you enter there, the smaller the AP loss per damage point taken.

If the formula does what it sais in the comments it does, then you crrently lose 1 AP per damage point taken. This may make sense in the 100 AP system, but certainly not in the 25 AP system. Though the comment then sais it's a divisor and shouldn't be adjusted.... so maybe a custom MAX_AP value is already considered insome way or other.

If you're using 100 AP, try entering a rather high number and see what happens, maybe 10.

Someone should look up in the code where exactly this is used because i guess that it is only used in that one turn in which you're taking the injury. The extremely low AP's that you have during the following turns are, i think, the result of your health and energy bar being extremely low.

Health and Agi majorly define your maximum possible AP values, while breath level defines your actual AP's (which might be lower than the maximum).

What i thus fear is that tweaking this value will help very little in making severly injured mercs useful again after they've been hit. But i certainly hope it isn't so Smile
Re: negative APs[message #243228] Thu, 04 February 2010 17:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Headrock

 
Messages:1783
Registered:March 2006
Location: Jerusalem
Good catch, Redgun, that looks to be it.

Quote:
If the formula does what it sais in the comments it does, then you crrently lose 1 AP per damage point taken.


That's the idea, and the code says the same. Increasing the value would reduce the number of APs lost per point of damage.

Quote:
This may make sense in the 100 AP system, but certainly not in the 25 AP system.


Chris thought of that, and added a modifier that reduces the APs lost proportionally. It works with the APBP constant "AP_MAXIMUM" as a divisor of 100. In other words, when using 25AP, you'll lose 1/4 as much.

Still, in both systems, I guess that's a bit much. Raising the value to 2 or even 3 might be preferable. BTW, the original code (from 1.12) has its value at 4. However, that's using the 25AP system, so overall, the value is the same in 1.12 and 1.13...

Quote:
The extremely low AP's that you have during the following turns are, i think, the result of your health and energy bar being extremely low.
[...]
What i thus fear is that tweaking this value will help very little in making severly injured mercs useful again after they've been hit. But i certainly hope it isn't so


Well, it's a compound problem - you lose APs, and then have less to spend next round due to reduced health/breath. There might be some way to work around that, perhaps scale the negative APs acquired in the last round with the starting APs in the new round. Just an idea.

However, if the divisor is increased, damage should suck out far fewer APs, thus all but the most wounded mercs would still reach their next turn with something. Personally, I always thought that this was a great silliness in the original game - wounded characters, including enemies, remained far too mobile (not to mention accurate) after being shot, so I don't consider the above an actual problem. However, if you want to avoid it, I guess tweaking the APBP constant upwards should at least help until we can figure out a good way to make it more manageable.



Re: negative APs[message #243238] Thu, 04 February 2010 18:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
the scorpion

 
Messages:1841
Registered:September 2004
Location: CH
the scorpion


If the formula does what it sais in the comments it does, then you crrently lose 1 AP per damage point taken. This may make sense in the 100 AP system, but certainly not in the 25 AP system. Though the comment then sais it's a divisor and shouldn't be adjusted.... so maybe a custom MAX_AP value is already considered insome way or other.



sorry for the nitpicking, but @headrock i think you shouldn't have omitted this second sentence there from where you quote me. I thought as much as another divisor for 25 AP being in place, it's also what the results confirm, it's just not explicitly stated in that divisor nor in the comments to this divisor Wink


As to character suffering too little from taking wounds, whoever thinks that probably hasn't played unmodifed multiplayer Smile
If you play with all the tricks in the book and quicksave/ quickload, it's usually only the enemy who is hit and you forget that an injury on one's own mercs has a similar impact. In fact, enemies hit in normal ja2 lose their chance to interrupt you. That makes them sitting ducks in the most extreme way, so if this is a level 8 elite, he loses almost all his damage potential during this turn so i think there is heavy punishment for being hit even though players rarely notice it.

Funny enough, enemies hit in MP may still interrupt you afterwards Smile Has resulted in a few injuries of mine already because my cheap tactic from vanilla doesn't work reliably anymore.


Still, the part where it is a compound problem seems to be the hotter issue. How does this divisor relate to the turn after you've taken the injury? Does it only matter in that sense that the merc starts out with a low number of AP's because this modifier is high or does it continue to have a more direct effect in later turns?
Re: negative APs[message #243245] Thu, 04 February 2010 19:36 Go to previous message
Headrock

 
Messages:1783
Registered:March 2006
Location: Jerusalem
Quote:
i think you shouldn't have omitted this second sentence there from where you quote me.


I was simply confirming your suspicion.

Quote:
If you play with all the tricks in the book and quicksave/ quickload, it's usually only the enemy who is hit and you forget that an injury on one's own mercs has a similar impact.


I play INSANE with self-enforced iron-man. Part of the idea behind HAM suppression is that characters can't work without support, so characters going into negative APs for several turns are pretty much to be expected during each and every battle. Of course, in an unmodified game, I can understand why this would be a bother, and/or in a multiplayer game that doesn't allow recruiting a large number of mercs. But regardless, the JA2 system is far too lenient in my taste, multiplayer or otherwise. It turns mercs into superheroes, most of the time. It's a matter of personal taste, of course.

Quote:
Still, the part where it is a compound problem seems to be the hotter issue. How does this divisor relate to the turn after you've taken the injury? Does it only matter in that sense that the merc starts out with a low number of AP's because this modifier is high or does it continue to have a more direct effect in later turns?


I'll illustrate.

Imagine that a character normally has 100AP to spend every turn. In the 100AP system, if he reserves 20 or more APs from the last turn, he'll start the next turn with his normal 100APs. Anything less than 20APs would mean starting his next turn with fewer than 100. If the minimum limit is 0, the worst that can happen (barring injuries) is having 80 APs every turn (that is, not reserving any APs from turn to turn). If the minimum limit is low enough, say -80, then potentially a character can lose his entire next turn (I.E. start with 0APs). This should only be possible through injury or suppression.

Now, Imagine that your character is hit and drops to -30AP due to the damage/AP discussed above in this thread. This is 50 less than the 20 required to reserve (20-(-30)=50), so in the next turn, he'll have 50 APs less than his normal amount. 100AP - 50AP = 50 starting APs in the next turn.

However, due to his injury, his starting APs are now even lower. He starts a turn with, say, 70APs instead of 100. Remove the 50, and you're left with 20APs to spend this turn! In addition, any breath damage incurred would reduce starting APs even further, meaning it's possible that the character will start his next turn with negative APs as well.

As the turns progress, and assuming the character is not injured further or loses more fatigue, he should start reserving APs, eventually bringing them back up to his starting maximum (70APs in this case, due to the injuries) or, if bandaged, back higher than that.

What I'm thinking is to scale the penalty that's carried on from turn to turn. In other words, if the character above goes from 100 starting APs to 50 starting APs, then the penalty he carries over each turn (which was 50 in the above example) is also halved. The character would therefore start his turn with 50-25=25APs instead of 0.


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