Home » MODDING HQ 1.13 » v1.13 Idea Incubation Lab  » New Attachment System Alpha
Re: New Attachment System (In Development)[message #250825] Sat, 01 May 2010 22:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wil473

 
Messages:2843
Registered:September 2004
Location: Canada
I usually do the same thing with first aid kits myself, though I have not persisted long enough with the NAS mini-mod to actually be needing to do any long term tidying of inventory (I was busy checking specific NAS features). This is one of those problems that should be checked with the "plain vanilla" NAS mod.

EDIT: I am testing UC-1.13 (with the SVN .exe not NAS), no problems with first aid consolidation so far.

[Updated on: Sat, 01 May 2010 22:34] by Moderator



Re: New Attachment System (In Development)[message #250831] Sun, 02 May 2010 00:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Faithless

 
Messages:442
Registered:October 2009
Location: The safe end of the barre...
Quote:
It only seems to occur with First aid kits. Locksmith, repair, medkits, and canteens don't have the problem at all.

That would make no sense... They're treated exactly the same...
If you have more details on this please let me know.
Re: New Attachment System (In Development)[message #250839] Sun, 02 May 2010 02:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wil473

 
Messages:2843
Registered:September 2004
Location: Canada
Steelfallenangle, what do the attachments slots look like with the first aid kits? Are there two on each side (the default if no attachment slots are defined for that item)?


Re: New Attachment System (In Development)[message #250847] Sun, 02 May 2010 04:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
steelfallenangel

 
Messages:28
Registered:May 2007
yea its what the new system uses for standard items. Two slots on each side of the item. Sometimes when I combine i get one of those odd pop ups that says You cant merge first aid kit with first aid kit but i always get that sometimes no matter what mod Im using and nothing really seems to come of it usually
Re: New Attachment System (In Development)[message #250850] Sun, 02 May 2010 04:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wil473

 
Messages:2843
Registered:September 2004
Location: Canada
Well, for me this is sort of good news, it wasn't something I did in the UC-1.13 Hybrid mini-mod. On the other hand, as Warmsteel said, there should be nothing different about the refill type merger used by the first aid kits. When I have my JA2 install sorted out, I'll see if I can replicate the bug you found.


Re: New Attachment System (In Development)[message #250855] Sun, 02 May 2010 05:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
steelfallenangel

 
Messages:28
Registered:May 2007
could just be due to something I tweaked incorrectly.

I edited the XML file slightly to allow some Sci Fi guns to show up in Normal Mode but I don't know why that would mess with first aid kits.

As for the other kits I'll experiment with them some more since I don't merge them nearly as often and it could be with them as well and I just havnt't encountered it.

Its not a major problem since a quick reload solves it i just may lose some progress

If it'll help I'll try to get the crash report next time it occurs to see if its something I did or something with the mod.

[Updated on: Sun, 02 May 2010 05:01] by Moderator

Re: New Attachment System (In Development)[message #250863] Sun, 02 May 2010 10:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Faithless

 
Messages:442
Registered:October 2009
Location: The safe end of the barre...
Quote:
Sometimes when I combine i get one of those odd pop ups that says You cant merge first aid kit with first aid

Yes that's normal, it was a bug with the message. I've fixed that but not uploaded it yet.
It shouldn't be able to crash your game, though =/
Re: New Attachment System (In Development)[message #250891] Mon, 03 May 2010 04:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
steelfallenangel

 
Messages:28
Registered:May 2007
well after a total save crash which hit both my autosave and my backup died and i had to start all over I havnt had the crash yet. It may have simply been some small error in the location of files or something.

If it does come up again ill printscreen the image so that you guys can see the specefied error report

As for the mod do you feel it would be effective to start adding some more mod choices in the future due to the unique position of where they would fall.

Im refering to stuff like standard magazine adapter to make use of smaller or larger mags. I know that two magazines of the same ammunition can be used in a gun but it would be kinda cool if we could make better use of different sized magazines for wieght purposes. Like 15 shot desingated marksmen magazines for M16 family of rifles.
Re: New Attachment System (In Development)[message #250894] Mon, 03 May 2010 12:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Faithless

 
Messages:442
Registered:October 2009
Location: The safe end of the barre...
Quote:
well after a total save crash which hit both my autosave and my backup died and i had to start all over I havnt had the crash yet. It may have simply been some small error in the location of files or something.

Was it a CTD or an assertion error?
Do you have a save that leads to the error?
I could learn what went wrong if I have a save from just before the crash.
Quote:
I know that two magazines of the same ammunition can be used in a gun but it would be kinda cool if we could make better use of different sized magazines for wieght purposes. Like 15 shot desingated marksmen magazines for M16 family of rifles.

This will eventually be done, but it's not part of NAS and it's not even my project Smile (Don't count on it anytime soon, though)
Once the source for NAS get released people will probably do all sorts of scary things to it anyway.
Re: New Attachment System (In Development)[message #250896] Mon, 03 May 2010 16:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wil473

 
Messages:2843
Registered:September 2004
Location: Canada
Once NAS is part of the main 1.13, I hope to be exploiting a certain property of WarmSteel's work to produce a pseudo-magazine well system. Right now UC-1.13 already has a form of this, in the dual feed for the FN Minimi/SAW, but it requires that whole remove, merge, reattach dance used by the folding stock system. In earlier NAS testing, found that when an item is defined as being a valid attachment for a slot, then the merger operation is overridden. Using this property, it should be possible for an item, like a magazine modification item, to be "stored" in one slot where it would have its usual effect, but "convert" when moved to an invalid slot. The problem is my scheme requires one slot defined per "mode" (or in the case of this discussion, magazine size).

Now I use the word "exploiting," as this is not part of Warmsteel's plan, purely an unintentional consequence, and the underlining mechanism may be dropped along the path through Beta and into main 1.13. That's why I am not working on implementing it until then.

EDIT: if short on space, I suppose I could get away with using two slots, one for the magazine well attachment, the other one (adjacent) with a dummy attachment whoes name gives the instructions.

[Updated on: Mon, 03 May 2010 16:53] by Moderator



Re: New Attachment System (In Development)[message #250898] Mon, 03 May 2010 17:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Faithless

 
Messages:442
Registered:October 2009
Location: The safe end of the barre...
Quote:
Now I use the word "exploiting," as this is not part of Warmsteel's plan, purely an unintentional consequence, and the underlining mechanism may be dropped along the path through Beta and into main 1.13.
It is indeed better to wait with this till NAS is completed, but I see no reason to change this right now.

wil473
Once NAS is part of the main 1.13, I hope to be exploiting a certain property of WarmSteel's work to produce a pseudo-magazine well system.
Headrock
Still, I am hoping (as Warmsteel commented) to separate caliber from weapon ID by turning magazines into attachments and using a dedicated ammo slot for weapons.
You two aren't going to do duplicate work, are you?

Re: New Attachment System (In Development)[message #250900] Mon, 03 May 2010 17:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wil473

 
Messages:2843
Registered:September 2004
Location: Canada
Nope, the last time coded was ten years ago with Pascal for a 2nd year class in an academic stream I was ultimately unsucessful. Much more sucessful now that I am an ideas man of sorts... though not much money involved yet... What I'm planning is just my current folding stock/transforming attachment system, but with less clicks. Headrock is proposing something with the actual magazine/ammo mechanism in the .exe.

EDIT: incidentally, as bonuses and other variable modifying attributes are effective when applied to magazines, are magazines not already some kind of special attachment? My case example is match grade ammo where the range bonus is purely given by setting the range bonus variable for the magazine.

[Updated on: Mon, 03 May 2010 17:53] by Moderator



Re: New Attachment System (In Development)[message #250903] Mon, 03 May 2010 18:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Headrock

 
Messages:1781
Registered:March 2006
Location: Jerusalem
Just to clarify, what I'm proposing is:

  • The weapon has a "MagazineWellType" tag that references a list of magazine well types.
  • Each magazine well type is defined as taking one caliber and a list of possible sizes (20rd, 30rd, etc., or possibly just a minimum and maximum size).
  • Ammo items have a tag called "CanEmpty" or somesuch. If set to 1, the ammo item is a clip, and can become empty during gunfire. Otherwise it is loose ammo, and will disappear once depleted.
  • Ammo then attaches to a special attachment slots that's completely reserved for it. It can only be attached if it has the same caliber and a suitable size for the Magazine Well Type involved.
  • When weapons are fired, they can empty a magazine if it has the CanEmpty flag. In such a case you're left with an ammo item with no bullets in it. You can refill this item using any other ammo item that shares the same caliber and ammo type (unfortunately, loading several different bullet types into a single magazine is much more complex to do).
  • If you want attachments like a Mag Adapter, those attachments will simply change the weapon's Magazine Well Type to another type, and then it can different sizes of magazines based on the new Well Type.

There are two benefits from this system. The first is that you don't have to tell each weapon which magazines it can take - just point it to a Magazine Well type suitable for it. Many weapons will share the same type of well, seeing as many magazines are standardized to fit a range of weapons. This conserves a lot of work for modders, and I mean a LOT. The second benefit is empty magazines, which can be conserved for later, increasing realism. It should be easy to optionalize this so that each magazine well type has a "Default" magazine size, so that if the wrong size is fed into an empty well slot, it magically turns into a new magazine of the default size, reducing micromanagement for those who don't want it.
In addition, if attachments on attachments become possible (or are they?), you could do things like magazines taped together, in which case when one is emptied the automatic reload will simply switch the two around. Other possibilities will also open up once this feature is enabled.

@ Wil: Currently when a magazine is loaded into the weapon, the item disappears, and the weapon itself gets the properties of the bullets stored in its data structure. So no, they're not attachments, they actually become part of the weapon. When unloading, the game creates a new magazine item based on the data stored in the weapon. So in between, the ammo item ceases to exist, and isn't treated like an attachment anywhere in the program.


Re: New Attachment System (In Development)[message #250905] Mon, 03 May 2010 18:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Faithless

 
Messages:442
Registered:October 2009
Location: The safe end of the barre...
Quote:
In addition, if attachments on attachments become possible (or are they?), you could do things like magazines taped together, in which case when one is emptied the automatic reload will simply switch the two around. Other possibilities will also open up once this feature is enabled.

This is not possible, because for some reason someone coded something to prevent this.
I don't know why though, might not be hard to remove but I don't know what problems it might cause. (I mean, it should be there for a reason... right?)
Re: New Attachment System (In Development)[message #250928] Tue, 04 May 2010 03:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kaerar

 
Messages:2067
Registered:January 2003
Location: Australia :D
Have a look Wink

I mean everyone has tried to merge two mags with duct tape haven't they? Known as the terrorist special isn't it...


Re: New Attachment System (In Development)[message #251009] Thu, 06 May 2010 09:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
steelfallenangel

 
Messages:28
Registered:May 2007
Wil473

Brigade E5 had something like this but was even more complex (if you chose to mess with it)

You started with empty mags (something JA assumes mercs carry around) and could fill them will bullets automatically. But if you chose you could mix and match ammunition.

EX:
2 Armor peircing rounds followed by 1 hollowpoint

I doubt JA allows that form of complexity but Im suprised at how far mods have been able to take the game already so who really knows.
Re: New Attachment System (In Development)[message #251591] Sat, 15 May 2010 07:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dinglehopper

 
Messages:134
Registered:January 2008
I hope the lack of activity doesn't mean this project is dying so close to the finish line.
Re: New Attachment System (In Development)[message #251595] Sat, 15 May 2010 09:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kaerar

 
Messages:2067
Registered:January 2003
Location: Australia :D
Nah he's often the IRC channel Smile


Re: New Attachment System (In Development)[message #251610] Sat, 15 May 2010 15:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Faithless

 
Messages:442
Registered:October 2009
Location: The safe end of the barre...
I didn't feel like working on it lately.
Next step would be updating and that's probably one hell of a job by now, so I'm taking a break.
Gives people time to spot bugs aswell, although there don't seem to be many people testing.
Re: New Attachment System (In Development)[message #251631] Sat, 15 May 2010 20:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Minty

 
Messages:115
Registered:July 2009
Location: UK
Well, on that note, the only consistent NAS bug I've found is the "You cannot atach this to that" popup when merging magazines, medkits, and the like. Perhaps a check should be made as to whether a merge is happening (Either combo or straight merge) before the popup's shown?
Re: New Attachment System Alpha[message #251632] Sat, 15 May 2010 20:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Faithless

 
Messages:442
Registered:October 2009
Location: The safe end of the barre...
Yup that's the only bug I currently know about, and I have it fixed in my version.
I was too lazy to update the version on the site just for that bug though. Smile

Has anyone tried playing with the old attachment system?
This needs to work perfectly at least.
Re: New Attachment System (In Development)[message #251669] Sun, 16 May 2010 08:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dinglehopper

 
Messages:134
Registered:January 2008
See, I plan to test the hell out of it, once it enters beta.

Maybe headrock has some advice for making updates easier.

DH
Re: New Attachment System (In Development)[message #251671] Sun, 16 May 2010 09:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Headrock

 
Messages:1781
Registered:March 2006
Location: Jerusalem
LOL, unlikely, I do it all by hand and it's extremely unpleasant.


Re: New Attachment System (In Development)[message #251672] Sun, 16 May 2010 09:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
steelfallenangel

 
Messages:28
Registered:May 2007
btw warmsteel

I havnt been able to recreate that crash bug since I had to start the JA2 folder from the begining. So it must have simply been some wierd mixup. A file not being where it was suppose to be or something.
Re: New Attachment System (In Development)[message #251678] Sun, 16 May 2010 12:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Faithless

 
Messages:442
Registered:October 2009
Location: The safe end of the barre...
It's still strange Sad
Bugs then only happen every now and then are the worst.
Maybe it's when one of the items is depleted?
Re: New Attachment System (In Development)[message #251722] Mon, 17 May 2010 00:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
steelfallenangel

 
Messages:28
Registered:May 2007
thats a strong possibility. Since that kind of thing would usually only happen with First aid kits since locksmith kits and repair kits dont delpete that quickly and as such youd have some left with the other one at which case would just be sold.
Re: New Attachment System (In Development)[message #251820] Tue, 18 May 2010 15:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wil473

 
Messages:2843
Registered:September 2004
Location: Canada
Tried a game with the NAS 0.42a .exe but with NAS turned off in the .ini, two CTD's from the first map alone.

First was moving a throwing knife from Blood's hand to an inventory slot (NIV vest). This I could not replicate in the next attempt.

Second was after combat, the game crashed on swithching from strategic view (after examining the post battle loot) back to tactical. This one I will try again.

EDIT: no cheat codes were used in the above two attempts at a game, in my thrid try, I did use cheat codes to clear the sector. I was able to flip between strategic and tactical without problems after combat.

[Updated on: Tue, 18 May 2010 15:55] by Moderator



Re: New Attachment System (In Development)[message #252024] Sat, 22 May 2010 19:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
bugmonster

 
Messages:16
Registered:November 2006
Headrock
Just to clarify, what I'm proposing is:

  • The weapon has a "MagazineWellType" tag that references a list of magazine well types.
  • Each magazine well type is defined as taking one caliber and a list of possible sizes (20rd, 30rd, etc., or possibly just a minimum and maximum size).
    ...


Did that system many years ago. Then I realized that there were unresolvable lacks.
Not many real weapons and magazines can described by this simplified "Caliber-MagWell" system, min&max capacity limitations can help only in some cases, as example:

  • FN Mk.16 accepts all M16-type magazines. But with EGLM attached it cannot accept drum and double-drum magazines.
  • FN Minimi/SAW accepts belt and M16 30 rd magazine. It cannot accept C-Mag 100-rounder with M-16 feed clip, but can accept C-Mag with SAW feed clip. M16 can accept both C-Mag M16 and SAW feed clips. Also, feeding Minimi with magazines gives it +200 rpm to technical rate of fire.
  • Glock 19 accepts 15 rd and 17 rd magazines, 17 rd magazine can be 15-rounder with +2 magazine extender. 17th model cant accept last one, however it accepts normal 17-rounder.
  • Chinese Type 63/68 accepts proprietary 20 and 30 rd magazines. It also accepts all types of 7.62 AK magazines, but in that case it loses bolt catch feature. And like many older battle rifles (SVT, Gew.43, MAS-49) it can be filled from clip when empty magazine is attached.
  • Inch FALs can accept their own magazines, metric FAL magazines, Bren L4 30 rd magazines. But metric FALs can accept only metric FAL magazines.
  • .357 revolvers and spidloaders can use .38 ammo.
    etc, etc
Re: New Attachment System (In Development)[message #252051] Sun, 23 May 2010 02:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kaerar

 
Messages:2067
Registered:January 2003
Location: Australia :D
No need for that level of detail though. This is still a game and with the current XML's that level of detail can be applied by someone willing to go through all that hell, but a simplified system would still be easy enough to add for the moment. It's still more accurate than the current method without removing ease of use Wink


Re: New Attachment System (In Development)[message #252081] Sun, 23 May 2010 14:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
bugmonster

 
Messages:16
Registered:November 2006
Of course, I've listed extreme cases.
But...
If you'll treat magazines like other attachments, you'll get those features for free. Just add magazines to list of possible attachments, incompatible attachments and so on. Actually, it's an ol' good attachment system and not harder to understand then new MagWell system.

[Updated on: Sun, 23 May 2010 14:04] by Moderator

Re: New Attachment System (In Development)[message #252083] Sun, 23 May 2010 14:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jcd
Messages:1
Registered:October 2007
Hi. I constantly get a ctd during the first battle in Omerta. I'm running a 0.42a NAS on top of revision 1208. The crash message is: " is not in a valid group. (pSoldier->ubGroupID is 0)". I've significantly modified the Ja2_Options.ini and IMPItemChoices.xml.
Here's the link to the savegame : http://www.sendspace.pl/file/8eb33d85f0c269981d64734
Re: New Attachment System (In Development)[message #252273] Wed, 26 May 2010 01:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Faithless

 
Messages:442
Registered:October 2009
Location: The safe end of the barre...
I recall having the same bug before starting NAS, so this is probably not related to it.
Can't remember what seemed to cause it though, but I do remember that it was because mercs were in the wrong squad, and that there was a work-around. (Can't remember it though)
Won't be fixing this, the bug is in the map loading section I think, and I don't know much about it.

Thanks for taking the time to post this bug though, please report any other bugs you encounter.
Re: New Attachment System (In Development)[message #252312] Wed, 26 May 2010 14:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Starwalker

 
Messages:768
Registered:October 2005
Location: Hannover, Germany
Dieter
Here is the list of weapons which have burst or auto fire but do not allow for a rod & spring attachments in SVN 1203 build 3287:

Ruger Mini-14

It does not have burst/fullauto in basic JA2 1.13, thus the R&S does not apply (as it affects only burst/fullauto, unlike it did in vanilla JA2).

Dieter
Auto Rocket Rifle

Being a rocket rifle, it does not have parts that could be affected by a new spring (as there is no old spring...). Wrong technology, so to speak. To make it fire faster, the loader getting the rockets from the bundle beneath the rifle would need to speed up.

Dieter
Calico M-950

Like the Mini-14 above.

Dieter
SR-2 Veresk

Omission. Will be corrected soon, thanks Smile

Dieter
Metal Storm Surf Zone

Wrong technology, as with the auto rocket rifle. There's nothing here that could be sped up with a new spring, as this gun does not have that many moving parts.

Dieter
ColtCanada C7CT

Like the Mini-14 above.

Dieter
AKMSU

Omission. Will be corrected soon.

Dieter
Steyr ACR

The technology does not lend itself to the use of a replacement spring...

Basically, the HK G11 should not benefit from the R&S either, but it still is allowed to have it because that was the way in vanilla JA2, IIRC.
I can remove it from the G11, of course...

Dieter
Owen .45
MAT-49
SIG MP41/44
AR57 16"
AR57 11"
AR57 6"-Silenced

Omissions. Will be corrected soon.


Re: New Attachment System (In Development)[message #252400] Thu, 27 May 2010 18:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
fallschirmjager

 
Messages:42
Registered:June 2005
Location: Darwin, Australia

Hey guys.

Forgive me if it's a rookie mistake but I'm having difficulty trying to run this mod. v1.13 (2085 I believe it is but the OP mentions revision 3320?) ran perfectly fine but as soon as I try running the extracted NAS files via the included .exe this happens:

http://img689.imageshack.us/i/80395574.gif/
Re: New Attachment System (In Development)[message #252405] Thu, 27 May 2010 19:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Logisteric

 
Messages:3396
Registered:December 2008
Location: B
2065 is way too old -> new one
Re: New Attachment System (In Development)[message #252465] Fri, 28 May 2010 00:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
fallschirmjager

 
Messages:42
Registered:June 2005
Location: Darwin, Australia

Cheers, Cobber.

I should have read up on the HAM topics a little harder. I understand what it is now.

Thanks again.
Re: New Attachment System Alpha[message #252560] Fri, 28 May 2010 18:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Rantanplan
Messages:2
Registered:May 2010
Here is another bug:
In the tactical screen the "bipod modifier" and "min. range for aiming bonus" values are reversed.
http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/736/image1q.gif

Other than this and the "Medikit merge bug" the mod seems to be working nicely and I hope it will be added to the main SVN soon. Keep up the good work Warmsteel! :bluecool:
Re: New Attachment System Alpha[message #252563] Fri, 28 May 2010 20:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Minty

 
Messages:115
Registered:July 2009
Location: UK
Rantanplan, that looks more like an EDB error than a NAS one to me. But then, NAS is running on an older version of HAM, so when Warmsteel gets around to porting NAS into the latest SVN exe, that may well disappear.
Re: New Attachment System Alpha[message #252574] Fri, 28 May 2010 21:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3809
Registered:July 2009
Yep, it is related to EDB and is fixed in the recent exe (don't know what revision, obviously after NAS)


Re: New Attachment System Alpha[message #252607] Sat, 29 May 2010 11:21 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
fallschirmjager

 
Messages:42
Registered:June 2005
Location: Darwin, Australia

Thanks for your help above, mates. It's added a whole new level to the game that I haven't seen since Brigade E5/7,62mm.

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