Home » MODDING HQ 1.13 » v1.13 Idea Incubation Lab  » New CTH system - Presentation
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #334873] Sat, 09 August 2014 04:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Flugente

 
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Registered:April 2009
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Random chances are used throughout the entire code. We will not alter the entire source code just to satisfy someone's peculiar tastes.

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Captain

Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #334877] Sat, 09 August 2014 04:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Slax is currently offline Slax

 
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Registered:July 2006
Location: People riding polar bears...
You know you can still play with the old chance to hit system, right?

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Sergeant Major
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #334880] Sat, 09 August 2014 12:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Flugente

 
Messages:3509
Registered:April 2009
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@Slax: This issue isn't restricted to CTH systems, and the old CTH system doesn't use a fixed table or random numbers anymore anyway afaik.

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Captain

Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #334881] Sat, 09 August 2014 13:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Slax is currently offline Slax

 
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Registered:July 2006
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So, what are we even talking about here?

I mean, in vanilla JA2 you very much had the option to reload until you get a perfect shot or whatever. Any minor action before the shot (look around with someone, crouch, stand up...) would change the result. Effectively cheesing the system, I guess. But since that apparently isn't the topic at hand... man, I just don't know what's going on here.

Thought this was a game about strategy and tactics, not number crunching. Razz

Preset random table, full random... how are you even going to spot a difference?

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Sergeant Major
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #334882] Sat, 09 August 2014 13:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot is currently offline DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3658
Registered:July 2009
Reload, if you get same results for same actions it's preset.

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Captain

Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #334887] Sat, 09 August 2014 15:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kirill_OverK is currently offline Kirill_OverK

 
Messages:257
Registered:September 2010
Slax
So, what are we even talking about here?

I mean, in vanilla JA2 you very much had the option to reload until you get a perfect shot or whatever. Any minor action before the shot (look around with someone, crouch, stand up...)


right ...

like in chess game where you load, back you turn and think again,
what you make wrong & what you can fix ...


=====
at current full-random system - you need just load&load .. -

I think it makes the game less interesting ... -

now do not have to think or to combine something ... - PUSH many times on load & you win ! Smile)


in pre-generated table is nothing bad, that table on all battle,

as lot(draw) before a football match...


I will give a graphic example based on the game of chess in real life .. ok ? -


http://111.imagebam.com/download/UYUdAPSXzz18fP-DAId-zw/34398/343979183/rand.png



____

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Master Sergeant
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #334888] Sat, 09 August 2014 15:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot is currently offline DepressivesBrot

 
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The problem is still 'loading' so the solution is still 'don't load'. And stop that chess comparison, at best pre-random is like hitting ctrl-z on solitaire.

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Captain

Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #334890] Sat, 09 August 2014 16:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Slax is currently offline Slax

 
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So what you really want is a perfect AI that knows everything about everything and will always stay at least two steps ahead of you.
The player would need to meta-game all over the place to even remotely stand a chance. Basically, looking for flaws in the game in order to win. Sounds kinda pointless, doesn't it?

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Sergeant Major
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #334893] Sat, 09 August 2014 18:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2793
Registered:May 2009
My oh my, never read such nonsense before. Loading a savegame also erases the past... I hope my savegames always remember what I have done. So far they do...

This thread is about presenting the NCTH system, not chess, not writing the future down somewhere. Please stick to the topic or create your own thread in the feature requests section.
Might as well save the time because no coder is going to implement such system which can be easily circumvented. It's nothing but a big waste of time.

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Lieutenant
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #334894] Sat, 09 August 2014 20:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kirill_OverK is currently offline Kirill_OverK

 
Messages:257
Registered:September 2010
DepressivesBrot
The problem is still 'loading' so the solution is still 'don't load'. And stop that chess comparison, at best pre-random is like hitting ctrl-z on solitaire.


so ..

my idea & old pre-random system is bad ?


===
1.13 can support old & new random systems simultaneously ?

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Master Sergeant
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #334907] Sun, 10 August 2014 12:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Meitsi

 
Messages:17
Registered:June 2009
Location: Finland
The easy solution to your problem is not to load, so why go through all the trouble of coding something only you see the need for?

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Private
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #334920] Sun, 10 August 2014 17:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kirill_OverK is currently offline Kirill_OverK

 
Messages:257
Registered:September 2010
Meitsi
The easy solution to your problem is not to load,


it not solution.


that solution change all gameplay... Sad



===
Iron mode - not solution too - it will be other game ...

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Master Sergeant
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #334927] Sun, 10 August 2014 21:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2793
Registered:May 2009
Kirill
Meitsi
The easy solution to your problem is not to load,


it not solution.

Actually it is a solution. But it's a solution that you don't like. Why do you want to load anyway? You only need to load because you want to cheat and because you are not satisfied with the outcome of an action otherwise there is no need to do it.

So stop wasting our time.

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Lieutenant
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #334940] Mon, 11 August 2014 16:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kirill_OverK is currently offline Kirill_OverK

 
Messages:257
Registered:September 2010

thanks ! Smile

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Master Sergeant
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #334941] Mon, 11 August 2014 16:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kirill_OverK is currently offline Kirill_OverK

 
Messages:257
Registered:September 2010


=====
Do you understand, that new New CTH system, what Headrock makes so long time, with full-random loses its meaning ?


New CTH system by complex calculations - says you will get into the target or not in a specific situation and time.

not just as old system - 0 or 100%.



=====
but why we need complex calculations by New CTH system if after load, we get new calculations ?


which calculations considered correct ?


before load .. after load ? Smile


why we need complex calculations from New CTH system if every load, we get different result ...?
Smile

full absurdity ....


______


[Updated on: Mon, 11 August 2014 16:19] by Moderator

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Master Sergeant
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #334943] Mon, 11 August 2014 19:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot is currently offline DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3658
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Heady wrote the system with actual random numbers.

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Captain

Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #334944] Mon, 11 August 2014 20:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Slax is currently offline Slax

 
Messages:1411
Registered:July 2006
Location: People riding polar bears...
So. Don't. Play. With. NCTH.
With the way you explain your style of play, you might as well mod in and spawn 10 perfectly accurate guns in Omerta.

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Sergeant Major
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #334946] Mon, 11 August 2014 22:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Meitsi

 
Messages:17
Registered:June 2009
Location: Finland
As you load your game, you are erasing what you've done, so why is it important that loading brings those calculations back? Since loading basically means you want to change something that happened, why should the system give you the chance to use your knowledge of the future to your advantage?

Yes this has the side-effect of giving load spammers the chance to hit every shot, but that is everyones choise to use or not.

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Private
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #334947] Mon, 11 August 2014 22:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot is currently offline DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3658
Registered:July 2009
Pre-Random and 'true' random each have their advantages and exploits. While TR theoretically allows for 'perfect' streaks without changing anything if you just keep loading long enough(!), PR gives you the knowledge that a certain 'chain' of events will work every time you try it and thus allows for easy backtracking to optimise those chains, adding a 'right call' to the end.

Non technical:
If you load enough, you can exploit either system. If we broke your favourite way of cheating, tough luck. Stop making up bullshit justifications why the old system was allegedly less cheaty.

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Captain

Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #334958] Tue, 12 August 2014 16:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kirill_OverK is currently offline Kirill_OverK

 
Messages:257
Registered:September 2010
Meitsi

Yes this has the side-effect of giving load spammers the chance to hit every shot, but that is everyones choise to use or not.


But .. if some important merc was died what I must to do ?

not load ? Smile

---
of course 90 or 95% of gamers take a load & try to change something .. right ?


but different between old and new system is - in new - you can do nothing ... - just load 2-3 times ..

and enemy can miss ... - in OLD(pre-random) you must do ACTIONs to save you merc.

or he die .. again & again ...


It principle different gameplay ...


do you understand ?



___

[Updated on: Tue, 12 August 2014 16:40] by Moderator

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Master Sergeant
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #334959] Tue, 12 August 2014 16:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Slax is currently offline Slax

 
Messages:1411
Registered:July 2006
Location: People riding polar bears...
That's your fault for saving too damn often then. You put yourself in an unwinnable situation, you deal with it. Get better, learn things.

Do you understand?

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Sergeant Major
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #334967] Tue, 12 August 2014 23:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gambigobilla

 
Messages:693
Registered:July 2008
Adding insult to the injury loading a saved game incurs a cth penalty for your mercs, take that save-scummers, suck it up :devilaugh:

Let go, begin again.

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First Sergeant
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #334970] Wed, 13 August 2014 09:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Meitsi

 
Messages:17
Registered:June 2009
Location: Finland
If merc(s) die, I accept it and try to learn from it.

Why can't you just load, do your ACTIONS to change things, without the system forcing you?

Current system also allows lazy players to just not do anything different to change the outcome Wink

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Private
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #334978] Thu, 14 August 2014 00:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kirill_OverK is currently offline Kirill_OverK

 
Messages:257
Registered:September 2010
night ops mod for example use old ja2-pre-random ..



why 1.13 can't use old & new sys. by chose at game start ?


____

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Master Sergeant
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #334982] Thu, 14 August 2014 08:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Meitsi

 
Messages:17
Registered:June 2009
Location: Finland
This has already been answered.

I don't see the brilliance in the old system as you could still make the enemy miss or reduce the damage taken from -55 to -5 by simply loading, without doing any changes.

[Updated on: Thu, 14 August 2014 08:37] by Moderator

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Private
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #334991] Thu, 14 August 2014 15:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kirill_OverK is currently offline Kirill_OverK

 
Messages:257
Registered:September 2010
Meitsi
This has already been answered.

enemy miss or reduce the damage taken from -55 to -5 by simply loading,
without doing any changes.




it new system ... (full random as now in 1.13)

not old...

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Master Sergeant
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #334997] Thu, 14 August 2014 20:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Meitsi

 
Messages:17
Registered:June 2009
Location: Finland
No I mean the old system. Not talking theory now, but the actual gameplay. You can screw the outcome just like with the new system by loading.

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Private
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #334998] Thu, 14 August 2014 20:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gambigobilla

 
Messages:693
Registered:July 2008
Sshhh, don't answer. Maybe he'll go away.

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First Sergeant
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #334999] Thu, 14 August 2014 20:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Meitsi

 
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Registered:June 2009
Location: Finland
Understood.

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Private
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #337719] Fri, 14 November 2014 01:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kirill_OverK is currently offline Kirill_OverK

 
Messages:257
Registered:September 2010

===
best settings ... -

https://yadi.sk/d/bDk1Fk_iZMBWD


fixed ballistics\damege and ect. for all guns in 1.13 ... or 1.13+AIMnas ..

test it !

very good settings !

=====

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Master Sergeant
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #339487 is a reply to message #337719] Wed, 18 February 2015 09:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dreamer2008 is currently offline dreamer2008

 
Messages:63
Registered:May 2010
I am curious, was the NCTH further developed to reach Headrock's vision? Because I remember he had to stop working on it, and it still had a lot of bugs. Did someone fix those bugs and improved it?

I am planning to use the NCTH in a new game start, since it sounds so awesome in Headrock's first posts, that's why I'm asking happy .

[Updated on: Wed, 18 February 2015 09:21]

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Corporal
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #339491 is a reply to message #339487] Wed, 18 February 2015 11:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2793
Registered:May 2009
You will just have to try the updated NCTH system and maybe tweak it a bit on your own if you are not satisfied with the defaults. I'm playing with the 1.13 default values and like it. Unlike some players I'm fully ok with the fact that every merc or soldier misses more in NCTH system. If you are used to the old headshot game and don't want to miss it you will probably not be happy with NCTH which produces more realistic hit percentages.

Just some example values of my current team:
- auto weapons ~ 25 percent
- machine gunner ~ 20 percent
- gunslinger ~ 35 percent
- shotguns (buckshot) ~ 40 - 50 percent
- shotgun (buckshot) hunter ~ 60 percent
- marksman ~ 45 percent
- sniper ~ 60 percent

This is at current progress 34 with appropriate equipment on WF maps. Hit rates will still improve with better equipment.



Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

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Lieutenant
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #339493 is a reply to message #339491] Wed, 18 February 2015 11:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dreamer2008 is currently offline dreamer2008

 
Messages:63
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I don't mind having more realistic hit percentages, as long as the enemies have them as well happy

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Corporal
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #347862 is a reply to message #339493] Wed, 28 December 2016 16:16 Go to previous message
Pentti is currently offline Pentti
Messages:1
Registered:December 2016
Location: Finland
Hi, I had to register to post this.

First of all I like the NCTH system. All the good stuff is there, yet I think that it emphasizes the effect of scopes a bit too much. Instead of complaining, I've been experimenting with some changes to NCTH system. Currently the magnification factor divides the radius of the aiming aperture circle causing for example the 4x scope to increase your accuracy by whopping 16 times. I added a square root to calculation of iMaxAperture in LOS.cpp and Interface.cpp. This causes the scope mag factor to divide the area of the aperture circle by effective mag factor. I can't say if this is more correct than the original calculation but it certainly feels better.
	iMaxAperture = iDistanceAperture / sqrt(fEffectiveMagFactor); 


I made another change to how muzzlesway is handled:
iAperture = ((iMaxAperture * pow ((FLOAT)uiMuzzleSway/100.0f, 2.0)));

This effectively makes the effect of aiming non linear so when you can get even a small improvement to muzzle sway value, it affects the aim considerably, without making everyone a sniper. With this chance, even with iron sights you can get reasonable accuracy to a target that you can see. The size of maximum aperture is unchanged.

I've been playtesting these changes with otherwise default options in CTHconstants.ini and gun play certainly feels better yet I'd recommend to disable the artificial bonuses to iron sigths for balance. If you're caught in the open you're dead, yet in cover getting a hit is hard. Merc skills seem a lot more prevalent now. You can't give Skitz an assault rifle with an agog and expect him to hit anything, which worked just fine before. Unaimed shots with scopes aren't that good and effects of skills and conditions affect your aim a lot more than before. With default settings the latter snippet increases general accuracy so I recommend to increase DEGREES_MAXIMUM_APERTURE in CTHconstants.ini to counteract that.

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Civilian
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