Home » MODDING HQ 1.13 » v1.13 Idea Incubation Lab  » New CTH system - Presentation
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261333] Thu, 02 September 2010 04:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
orko_oskar

 
Messages:74
Registered:April 2007
Location: Sweden
Aha, ok.
I must have missed that you mentioned that.
Too bad as it would be really convinient.
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261363] Thu, 02 September 2010 17:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
GMV

 
Messages:80
Registered:August 2010
Location: The Netherlands
I must say that I thought the first few post to be a very nice explanation, though the aimer in post #261248 buggles me with all that information. I know it is said before I would indeed just prefer, for example, the old crosshair with the circle going inward to indicate the amount of clicks, on the inside the ap cost, above the "magnification/laser" and below wich mode your shooting in and how many bullets.

Also it is in confusing to have a bonus from a laser in green, whereas using a scope beyond it's range (something that isn't good) to be also displayed in green?

If I may ask a few things about the first post? I hope I haven't overlooked this in a post in a thread that is quiet technical and discussion bound Wink

The calculation ((CTH Cap - Base CTH) * AimingModifier)/100) boggles me. For this would me the higher the Base CTH the lower the number that is multiplied by the AimingModifier - which makes me think you have a lower chance to hit. Now I am sure you didn't program that, so could perhaps give a numerical example of what happens here?

With Muzzle Climb you state that guns tend to go upwards and towards the right... euhm, this is if you are right handed true. However, with left-handed people this is reversed. Just thought to let you know. Not sure if you care about lefties in JA2 Wink

A question I also have concerns the Counter-Force. Is this calculated from the stats of the Merc? I mean is it now required for a machinegunner to have a high strength and dexterity in order to keep his Minimi on target?

Than I had two issues rather than questions.
You state that using a scope for nearby is determintal for aiming. I agree, but only if you were using it. However, you can also shoot guns from the hips or even look passed your scope.
I would find it more logical (though I can understand this is difficult to program), that guns on their normal distance fire normal scope or no. Whereas scopes that are for instance 4x magnification indeed perform poorly at 2x (or 3x, or 5x, but not at 1x).

What will happen when HAM4.0 is integrated into SVN with all the weapons that are in 1.13. Will you provide new values for these guns? Or, for that matter, the mods that are one click installs like UC-1.13 hybrids which own even more guns?

I hope I have not asked too many questions already asked. If so I apoligize, just very interrested and it looks very nice and (more) realistic indeed.

[Updated on: Thu, 02 September 2010 17:21] by Moderator

Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261370] Thu, 02 September 2010 18:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bus

 
Messages:16
Registered:February 2010
The way I understand this, the outer circle changes with magnification level and the inner indicators change with the number of aiming clicks. So I think that the mag and aim indicators are not really needed.
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261373] Thu, 02 September 2010 18:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
alph

 
Messages:8
Registered:January 2010
Location: China
Looks beautiful; Or the concept and presumably its execution look beautiful. I am really looking forward to it. The aiming reticle could use some aesthetic work, but that's not really necessary. Maybe instead of a circle, there could be three lines: right, left, and top that grow towards the center of the target as the accuracy radius tightens. then you could just show a line, or maybe two, of text stating all the relevant values underneath the target, offset by a few inches. This setup would obscure a lot less screen real estate and might look a little less intrusive.

OK, a little different than my description but here's a bad mockup.
http://imgur.com/tCSgE.png

The concept is accurate, the colors and the shapes will need to be made more appropriate. Basically, the two arrows close in as aim increases. They could change color too but I don't see why that's necessary. Black dots are bullets to be fired, white dots are available bullets. Firing a whole clip might look a little strange though, it might be better to stick with numerals. Also I was going under the impression that aimed/burst/auto indicator could be done away with because the bullet indicator should tell you that same info but I guess 3 bullets fired on burst would be different than three bullets fired on auto so maybe that won't work. Maybe, assuming burst is always better, you could just star-shape whatever bullet is the burst value and when you have added that many bullets, the gun would just shift to burst automatically (I'm probably wrong about that too). Another Idea, probably more work than necessary, but tied into the fluid bullet-count notion: If possible, instead of aim clicks and bullet clicks, you could just pull up or down on the target with the mouse to increase or decrease aiming while at the same time pulling left or right to increase/decrease bullet count. The other way, which was my first idea, is that you could click on whatever empty bullet you wanted and fill up to there and then do something similar with aiming levels.


And finally, the question I was originally going to ask before I saw the new targeting interface: are backpack stats going to show up in the UDbox? Unzip aps, movement penalties, APs to drop? Are all backpacks currently the same? It seems like they shouldn't be, but there's no way to really tell. Currently I never really use them because field packs seem so much better, but if there was a way to compare the two more accurately, it might make backpacks worth considering.

Anyway thanks for all of your hard work.
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261380] Thu, 02 September 2010 19:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CptMoore

 
Messages:224
Registered:March 2009
Another idea would be to make the ring/circle fade away/transparent the bigger it is, that would also limit its obstructioness.
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261381] Thu, 02 September 2010 19:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Headrock

 
Messages:1774
Registered:March 2006
Location: Jerusalem
Quote:
I know it is said before I would indeed just prefer, for example, the old crosshair with the circle going inward to indicate the amount of clicks, on the inside the ap cost, above the "magnification/laser" and below wich mode your shooting in and how many bullets.


Except that leaves out the actual CHANCE TO HIT, or rather, any measure of shot accuracy. And if a bar or numerical display is added to show these, the player would need to make a lot of calculations in their heads to figure out how much hit probability they actually have. The only way is a visual representation of Chance-to-Hit, that's why this CTH indicator was created in the first place.

Quote:
Also it is in confusing to have a bonus from a laser in green, whereas using a scope beyond it's range (something that isn't good) to be also displayed in green?


Both bonuses work exactly the same once applied: They make the shot X times easier. So it doesn't matter whether it's a laser or a scope giving the bonus.

If the indicator is RED, that means you're using a scope below its optimal range, and it is giving you a smaller bonus than it should, AND on top of that a penalty to each aiming click.

Conversely, if a scope is used BEYOND its range, it still gives its "normal" bonus and no penalties (which is why it's shown in green). It's less effective only because the range is greater than optimal, so the "bonus" is not enough to make the gun as accurate as it should be. It is still giving the listed bonus though.

Quote:
The calculation ((CTH Cap - Base CTH) * AimingModifier)/100) boggles me. For this would me the higher the Base CTH the lower the number that is multiplied by the AimingModifier - which makes me think you have a lower chance to hit. Now I am sure you didn't program that, so could perhaps give a numerical example of what happens here?


I'm not sure what you're referring to here, but that seems to be the amount of extra CTH you can get from aiming. I'll try to explain this, I hope it's the right explanation:

A shooter has a certain MAXIMUM CTH, defined by his skills. That's the CTH Cap, and no shooter can EVER have more than this much. The average cap (that is, for the average merc) is about 75. As mercs gain experience and marksmanship, the cap rises.

The Base CTH is the "free" amount of CTH a shooter gets before adding any extra aiming levels. This depends greatly on experience, and on how easy it is to swing the gun around. The average merc gets about 23 Base CTH with a pistol (and easy-handling gun), and about 13 with a sniper rifle (a hard-handling gun, assuming no bipod is used).

The difference between them is the "distance" to be covered by aiming. Each aiming click covers part of the distance, and the last aiming click can potentially put you at the CTH Cap (meaning, you are as accurate as you can be with this gun).

The aiming modifier changes that. It normally decreases the aiming bonus, meaning that each aiming click will produce less than the optimal amount required to bring you to the CTH cap. Therefore, the "maximum" accuracy you can achieve is reduced.

The Base CTH's effect here is simple: The more you have, the less you need to cover with extra aiming.

EXAMPLE:
A gun has 2 extra aiming clicks allowed. The shooter's CTH cap is 90.

If the shooter's base CTH is 10 (very bad, possibly low skills and a large cumbersome gun), the aiming clicks will cover 80 CTH points. Using the formula, the first click will add 2/3 of this amount (~53), and the second click adds 1/3 of the amount (~27). After applying both aiming clicks, our CTH is 90 (10+53+27=90).

If the shooter's base CTH is 30 (very good, probably high skills and a small gun), the aiming clicks will cover 60 points. Using the formula, the first click will add 2/3 of this amount (40), and the second click adds 1/3 of the amount (20). After applying both aiming clicks, our CTH is 90 (30+40+20).

In both cases, after two aiming clicks we still reached 90, because that's our CTH cap, and we will always reach it after applying all available aiming clicks, assuming no negative modifier is applied to aiming.
The difference is that in the first example, after the first click we only have 10+53=63 CTH points. In the second example, the first click ends with 30+40=70 CTH points. This 7 point difference is actually HUGE in game terms. So effectively, our gun has become FASTER thanks to proper orientation BEFORE extra aiming is applied.

Quote:
With Muzzle Climb you state that guns tend to go upwards and towards the right... euhm, this is if you are right handed true. However, with left-handed people this is reversed. Just thought to let you know. Not sure if you care about lefties in JA2


Unfortunately we do not HAVE lefties in JA2, and until we have them, it's irrelevant.

Quote:
A question I also have concerns the Counter-Force. Is this calculated from the stats of the Merc? I mean is it now required for a machinegunner to have a high strength and dexterity in order to keep his Minimi on target?


Yes, counter-force is calculated from skills. Each part of it (maximum CF, CF Accuray, and CF Frequency) is calculated using different skills. High strength is extremely important when using heavy autofiring weapons like machine guns. With smaller guns, it's more important to have high Dexterity and/or Agility.

Bipods (and other attachments) modify the counter force ability as well, so a weaker merc can still operate a machine gun if using one of these.
Also at the moment, folding stocks reduce CF properties a little.

Quote:
You state that using a scope for nearby is determintal for aiming. I agree, but only if you were using it. However, you can also shoot guns from the hips or even look passed your scope.
I would find it more logical (though I can understand this is difficult to program), that guns on their normal distance fire normal scope or no. Whereas scopes that are for instance 4x magnification indeed perform poorly at 2x (or 3x, or 5x, but not at 1x).


Not being able to use a gun's iron sights makes it more difficult to aim at close range. That's a given fact. Some scope combos have a reflex sight on top to help with that, or iron-sights on top of the scope. In neither situation is the scope not interfering with your shot.

Quote:
What will happen when HAM4.0 is integrated into SVN with all the weapons that are in 1.13. Will you provide new values for these guns? Or, for that matter, the mods that are one click installs like UC-1.13 hybrids which own even more guns?


HAM 4.0 won't be integrated into SVN. HAM 4 will probably go through several other versions before I even consider offering it for 1.13, and even then it's a LOT of work since NCTH would need to be made optional somehow (if that's even possible).

Until such time, HAM will already have a set of XMLs for all guns in 1.13, and hopefully compatible versions of XMLs for UC-1.13, AIM, and/or DBB, that would allow them to work with the new HAM. This is more up to the modders, not me.

Quote:
The way I understand this, the outer circle changes with magnification level and the inner indicators change with the number of aiming clicks. So I think that the mag and aim indicators are not really needed.


Yes and no.

The outer circle doesn't change unless the target or the shooter move. It is only there to give you an idea of how inaccurate your shot would be if you had the absolutely worst stats and gun. The inner indicator changes with both magnification level and aiming.

You ARE correct about the mag factor - it's not absolutely necessary. However, it does significantly help the player figure out WHY his shot is more or less accurate, or why aiming doesn't work as well in one situation as in another.


Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261383] Thu, 02 September 2010 19:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Headrock

 
Messages:1774
Registered:March 2006
Location: Jerusalem
Quote:
OK, a little different than my description but here's a bad mockup.


The idea isn't bad, I may take the aiming levels thing (with the dots), but there are other problems: The lack of an external indicator means that you can't know how good your Base CTH is compared to 0 CTH, and your indicator lacks space for a bullet count. Also another problem that might show up is that putting all the info below the target would make it impossible to understand when the target is at the bottom of the sector map. Maybe this could be solved some other way...

In any case, all these suggestions about the indicator are interesting but premature. I think you all should wait until you actually tested it in the game, since apparently no one understands why the indicator is designed the way it is. You'll understand once you use it a few times, and for that you need to wait for the Alpha.

Quote:
Another idea would be to make the ring/circle fade away/transparent the bigger it is, that would also limit its obstructioness.


If only I knew how to draw semi-transparent pixels...


Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261384] Thu, 02 September 2010 19:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3743
Registered:July 2009
If the outer ring only shows a 'worst case' anyway, couldn't you use a finer line then? I think if that circle would look more like one of those thin, white circles around the old aiming cursor, the whole thing wouldn't seem that big and obstrusive.
Together with a small cross replacing the old red cursor, it could help reduce the perceived size a lot.


Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261404] Thu, 02 September 2010 21:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Headrock

 
Messages:1774
Registered:March 2006
Location: Jerusalem
Yeah, I haven't tried the thinner outer line yet. I used one in the beginning, but the indicator looked a little different then - it will probably be much better now.


Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261426] Fri, 03 September 2010 01:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bus

 
Messages:16
Registered:February 2010
Headrock
Quote:
The way I understand this, the outer circle changes with magnification level and the inner indicators change with the number of aiming clicks. So I think that the mag and aim indicators are not really needed.

Yes and no.

The outer circle doesn't change unless the target or the shooter move. It is only there to give you an idea of how inaccurate your shot would be if you had the absolutely worst stats and gun. The inner indicator changes with both magnification level and aiming.

You ARE correct about the mag factor - it's not absolutely necessary. However, it does significantly help the player figure out WHY his shot is more or less accurate, or why aiming doesn't work as well in one situation as in another.

Oh wait, so the outer circle doesn't take magnification into account? So what's the real purpose of it anyway? I think that the inner indicator is all that is really needed, plus the AP cost and bullet count.
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261431] Fri, 03 September 2010 02:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Headrock

 
Messages:1774
Registered:March 2006
Location: Jerusalem
Quote:
Oh wait, so the outer circle doesn't take magnification into account? So what's the real purpose of it anyway?


It's supposed to give you an idea of how bad a shot CAN be, I.E. what happens with 0 CTH and no magnification bonus.

That gives the whole thing CONTEXT. It's not just "how small is my aperture", but "How small is my aperture compared to how big it could be". It's useful for determining how much improvement you've made with your aiming clicks. Without it, it's hard to keep track of how much you're aiming and whether you're making any progress with extra aiming.


Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261433] Fri, 03 September 2010 03:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bus

 
Messages:16
Registered:February 2010
But you can already see that when you right-click with your mouse right? I.e. the inner aiming indicator gets smaller as you add aiming clicks. So when you first select your target you will see the worst possible aperture size (no aiming) and as you continue to aim you will see the cursor getting smaller and smaller. I could even imagine using the old cursor with aiming circles if the circles were actually proportional to the aperture size and not of predefined sizes.

But of course you're the one who's seen it in-game so I guess I'll trust your judgement Wink.
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261436] Fri, 03 September 2010 04:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Headrock

 
Messages:1774
Registered:March 2006
Location: Jerusalem
Quote:
But you can already see that when you right-click with your mouse right? I.e. the inner aiming indicator gets smaller as you add aiming clicks. So when you first select your target you will see the worst possible aperture size (no aiming) and as you continue to aim you will see the cursor getting smaller and smaller.


No, because you don't start with 0 CTH. Without aiming you still get free CTH of up to 33%. Comparing that with the outer circle (the true worst shot) can be crucial.

-------------------------------

Anyhow, here's my next attempt at the indicator. I took some of the ideas from Alph's suggestion above, and mixed them with the existing cursor. Also several other changes which are explained below.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v726/Headrock/Jagged%20Alliance%202/HAM/HAM%204/CTH/Indicator-Graphical.gif

Firstly you can see I've changed the central cursor. It's much smaller and less intrusive now.

All labels have been removed except the word "AP" (sorry about the rogue colon there, will be fixed). In addition, the Current APs display has been removed, and now only shows the cost of the attack.

The outer and inner line are now drawn with a better algorithm, and as you can clearly see the outer circle has been reduced to minimal width.

The width of the aiming pips reduces itself automatically if there are more than 4 allowed aiming levels, so with eight it'll look more compact and occupy the same space. With 2 levels allowed, the spaces between the pips are the same as shown above, so they occupy less space. I'll get a pic of that in the near future.

Do excuse a few problems there with the circle being erased in the wrong places (where it expects other indicators to be), I still need to tweak that.

[EDIT: Per Smeagol's idea, in the Bullets indicator I've put a space between groups of 5 bullets, to make it easier to count them. Also I've increased the maximum number of bullets shown to 15. If more than this many bullets can be fired, a + is drawn at the end. It lights up yellow when you set the volley to 16 or more bullets.]


Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261441] Fri, 03 September 2010 05:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Madeiner

 
Messages:13
Registered:November 2008
Uhm i have a few suggestions:

- 1: When you add autofire bullets once you have aimed, create a third circle, expanding from the inner one, showing the accuracy of the last shot to be fired. So you shrink while you aim, then you add shots and a the circle grows again. It can even be the same inner circle instead of a third one (since at this point, you know already what your hitchance from first bullet is). Maybe a non-contiguous circle, if it can be done?

- The aiming pips are nice too see, but ultimately useless. I think it was better before, a simple aim/max aim indicator. Even then, i would remove it entirely, and change the color of the lines when you are at "max" aiming, exactly like it is now.

- The bullet indicator takes up way too much space. I'd change it back to what is was, a number indicator, under AP indicator or maybe lower right side of cursor. Max bullet is not needed: turn yellow when max number of bullets is reached.

Alternative: For each bullet you are gonna shoot, create a new inner circle showing it's chance to hit. You fire 5 bullets, you have 5 circles, each one growing a little. But i don't know, you may end up with way to many circles than you want.

Edit: Also, it could be nice to remove the outer circle once you have aimed at least once. You don't really need that information anymore.


Another idea: with your system, i think everyone but snipers will want to fire at least 2 bullets, preferably three or four at a time. If at all possible, make it that the system "remembers" how many bullets you fired last time, on a per character basis, and start the aiming at that number (maybe reset after retuning to strategic view). You could use, for example, "hold right click" to reset to single shot (instead of having to necessarily right click until you reach max number and then back)

About burst fire: make it so that when a weapon has burstfire, first rightclick chooses "burstfire size" number of bullets and adds a BURST label somewhere. If you right click again, bullet count go up and BURST label disappears. That is, assuming that bursts has better CTH than full auto. However, this makes it impossible to fire a number of bullets less than burst fire. But who wants to autofire two bullets if you can burst three?


Finally, how about making different graphics for different sights? Aiming with a scope, you get a scope (blocking some view around the target of course), iron sight you get, well, iron sights, and so on. It is ultimately useless, but provides a lot of immersion, i think. Don't know if it's feasible or you are interested in something like this.

These are just random ideas tossed in Razz

[Updated on: Fri, 03 September 2010 05:48] by Moderator

Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261442] Fri, 03 September 2010 05:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Headrock

 
Messages:1774
Registered:March 2006
Location: Jerusalem
Quote:
When you add autofire bullets once you have aimed, create a third circle, expanding from the inner one, showing the accuracy of the last shot to be fired.


Impossible, since the NCTH recoil system is so completely different from the original. There's no good way to calculate how far the "last" bullet will go - it's got tons to do with the shooter's skill, the equipment being used, and completely random factors.

I may add some sort of color indicator, however, when bursting/autofiring a weapon that's too powerful for its shooter.

Quote:
The aiming pips are nice too see, but ultimately useless. I think it was better before, a simple aim/max aim indicator. Even then, i would remove it entirely, and change the color of the lines when you are at "max" aiming, exactly like it is now.


I actually like the new indicator better, and it might be useful for other things in the future. However your dissatisfaction is noted.

Quote:
The bullet indicator takes up way too much space. I'd change it back to what is was, a number indicator, under AP indicator or maybe lower right side of cursor. Max bullet is not needed: turn yellow when max number of bullets is reached.


Again, I completely disagree. Firstly because there's much more space now, and the removal of text has made the whole thing look much more natural and less cluttered, despite the fact that the new indicators actually take up MORE space than before. That's the benefit of using graphics: They're so much easier to look at than text...

Quote:
Alternative: For each bullet you are gonna shoot, create a new inner circle showing it's chance to hit.


Again, since recoil doesn't even remotely work that way anymore, that would be entirely impossible.

Quote:
Also, it could be nice to remove the outer circle once you have aimed at least once. You don't really need that information anymore.


And again, that would mess up the perception of how well the gun is aimed, so I'm very much reluctant to remove it. At best I could change its shape to reduce its presence, but trust me - you need that outer circle.


Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261454] Fri, 03 September 2010 10:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
GMV

 
Messages:80
Registered:August 2010
Location: The Netherlands
For my opinion, the new indicator looks very nice. It has the old time feel, not so obstructive and lots of info without obstructing view and the like.

Thanks for answering the other question, it answered all but one of them. The one that is not answered is apparantly me failing mathematics at the moment:

Quote:
EXAMPLE:
A gun has 2 extra aiming clicks allowed. The shooter's CTH cap is 90.

If the shooter's base CTH is 30 (very good, probably high skills and a small gun), the aiming clicks will cover 60 points. Using the formula, the first click will add 2/3 of this amount (40), and the second click adds 1/3 of the amount (20). After applying both aiming clicks, our CTH is 90 (30+40+20).


What I fail at (as with the other example) is the actual use of the formula. Taking the above example I get:

((CTH Cap - Base CTH) * AimingModifier)/100) -> (90 - 30) = 60.
Okay so this is the amount of CtH that the aiming clicks cover. So far so good.

The definition: AimingModifier = Simple sum of all factors that affect Aiming CTH. Each factor has a known and measurable effect.
Seeing this is based on factors we don't know at this moment let us use 1.
So it becomes 60/100 = 0.6
Seeing you state 2/3 I take it this is the 0.6 and that it becomes next 60 * 0.6 = ~40 (which is a new formula in itself, I did not notice in the explanation. However, this may be on purpose of course, not everyone tries to see how it works through calculation Wink)

So far so good, now however I get stuck.
How do you get the last percentage. I mean with a 2 click gun it is fine, because it is the left over, but I can not for a 3 click gun how to divide up the next two stages. Or do you use the same 0.6 for the remaining 20 CTH and get 12 CTH for the second click and 8 for the third?

Sorry to be a little slow on this one.

A new question that came to mind is the fact that with your NCTH 10x scopes may be near useless. I mean I feel lucky and cool if I can shoot halfway across the map (sometimes neigh in possible in city fights). Now seeing that is 80 tiles, that is way below a 10X iron sights - a term that also puzzles me slightly as:

Quote:
"normal" Shooting Range
This is an important factor in the whole system, and determines the range at which combat will be done. In practical terms, it is the furthest point where a gun's iron sights are 100% effetive. They begin losing effectiveness beyond that point.

Scope Magnification
Scopes now make the Muzzle Sway radius smaller by a certain factor, the scope's Magnification Factor. A 2x scope, for instance, makes muzzle sway half as large as it normally would be. However, this only occurs at a certain distance - the scope's "Best" range, which is based on the Normal Shooting Range. Beyond or before that distance, the scope is less effective (up to the point of being OBSTRUCTIVE).


Giving me the feel that "normal" shooting range = the range currently indicated with a gun. However, a scope increases this range and below that it doesn't work.
Does this mean that a sniper rifle will also get a "normal" shooting range of around 10 to 20? If it keeps the old ~80 (and even up) a scope seems impossible to use. Hence, I must miss something here. Wink

[Updated on: Fri, 03 September 2010 10:37] by Moderator

Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261456] Fri, 03 September 2010 10:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Watchman

 
Messages:102
Registered:August 2008
Location: Philippines
I get the impression you're lining up a plane for a bombing run instead of aiming a gun with that CTH cursor. :welder:
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261469] Fri, 03 September 2010 14:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dansken

 
Messages:87
Registered:March 2007
Location: Norway
I'd just like to throw in my support for the new style -- looks excellent!

Love the bullet indicator (with more bullets being "filled in" as you add bullets).

Maybe you would consider the same approach for the targeting pips? That would mean fewer targeting pips being displayed than your current mechanism, and it may be more intuitive if they behave similiar to the "add bullets" mechanism.

As for groups of five bullets, I believe I would prefer the current display (single grouping). If Headrock and Smeagol says "there shall be groups of five", I'll defer to my betters. Smile
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261478] Fri, 03 September 2010 16:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Headrock

 
Messages:1774
Registered:March 2006
Location: Jerusalem
@ GMV: No, I guess I confused you a little. I'll try again.

You already got the first formula: It finds how much CTH you'll cover with extra aiming. The Aiming Modifier is usually less than 1.0, thanks to things like injury, a heavy gun, difficulty shooting upwards, and so forth, but it's fine if we treat it as 1.0. So:

Total Aiming CTH = (CTH Cap - Base CTH)

Now you got a little confused due to me mentioning a second formula and you thinking I was still referring to the first formula.
The second formula is the one that calculates how much EACH aiming click gives you. You do NOT gain the same amount of CTH from each click. The formula is hard to describe in mathematical form, so I'll give it in pseudo code:

Total_Aiming_CTH = The value we calculated above.
Num_Levels = The total number of aiming clicks allowed for this gun.
Current_Level = The number of the aiming click you're adding. The first aim click is 1, the second is 2, etcetera.
X = 1

LOOP:
{
  Num_Fractions is increased by X
  X = X+1
}
Repeat loop until X = Num_Levels

CTH bonus for current aiming click = (Num_Levels - (Current_Level-1)) * (Total_Aiming_CTH / Num_Fractions)


EXAMPLE:
We calculate that the gun will give a total of 60 CTH when all aiming has been applied.
The gun allows 4 aiming levels.
The number of fractions is therefore (1+2+3+4) = 10.
The first aiming click will give: (4 - (1-1)) * (60/10) = 4 * 6 = 24 CTH
The second aiming click will give: (4 - (2-1)) * (60/10) = 3 * 6 = 18 CTH
The third aiming click will give: (4 - (3-1)) * (60/10) = 2 * 6 = 12 CTH
The fourth aiming click will give: (4 - (4-1)) * (60/10) = 1 * 6 = 6 CTH

If you add these clicks together, you'll see that they add up to 60, the Total Aiming CTH as we calculated it in the first formula.

So this means that the first aiming click adds the most CTH, and the last aiming click adds the least. Of course, the last few points are "worth" much more than the first few, especially at long distance where every little point can make a huge difference.

What this also means is that the FEWER aiming clicks your gun allows, the BETTER. A gun with 2 aiming clicks allowed will reach the CTH Cap after 2 aiming clicks, while a gun with 8 clicks will reach the CTH cap after 8 clicks. Of course, guns with fewer clicks available are also much smaller and lack range. So it's a tradeoff - the sniper guns (with 8 clicks) require a lot of aiming time to reach their maximum aiming potential, but when they do they are deadly at a huge range. Pistols reach their maximum potential after two clicks, but are only effective within a very short range.

In addition, NCTH uses this together with attachments. For instance, a Reflex Sight now reduces the number of aiming clicks by 1 point. This is a good thing - it means your weapon reaches its best aiming ability faster!

I hope this is clearer now.

Quote:
Does this mean that a sniper rifle will also get a "normal" shooting range of around 10 to 20?


The "Normal" shooting range is exactly the same for all weapons. It is simply a constant that drives the rest of the shooting mechanism. It is currently defined as 7 tiles in the code. So 1xNormal is 7 tiles, 2xNormal is 14, and so forth.

A sniper rifle equipped with a 10x scope, and used at a distance of 10x7=70 tiles or more, gets a shooting aperture that is 10 times narrower than what it would have at that distance with no scope at all. So in effect, that sniper rifle is as accurate at 70 tiles with its 10x scope as it would've been at 7 tiles with no scope at all.

If the scope is used below the optimal distance, it causes problems. Firstly it doesn't give the full magnification bonus. If the target is at, say, 49 tiles (7xNormal), then the scope is ALSO nerfed to 7x instead of 10x. However it's actually worse than using a regular 7x scope at the same range, since it also gives penalties to aiming (that's part of the the Aiming Modifier you were confused about earlier).

So it now prevents the gun from reaching the CTH Cap because the total Aiming CTH you can get is smaller than the distance between Base CTH and CTH Cap. This penalty gets so harsh that at very close distance, say 1xNormal (7 tiles), the sniper rifle with a scope installed gets NO BENEFIT FROM AIMING CLICKS. It's actually better to remove the scope completely and try to aim the gun using its iron sights (still at a disadvantage, since the size of the sniper rifle also factors into that Aiming Modifier).

Shooting BEYOND the scope's maximum range doesn't apply any penalties. For instance, let's say we're using a 2x scope, but the target is 4xNormal (28 tiles) away. We do get a 2x bonus as normal, which makes our shooting circle half as large. However, that is still very large compared to the distance (4x). While the scope HAS improved our aiming by 2x, it's not good enough to be very accurate at 28 tiles. So the scope works as intended, but isn't powerful enough for the shot we're trying to make.

I hope this makes more sense now?

Dansken
Maybe you would consider the same approach for the targeting pips?


I like it this way, because it gives that feel of "zeroing in". Smile


Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261481] Fri, 03 September 2010 16:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2678
Registered:May 2009
I agree with Dansken. I would like targeting pips the same way as bullets, preferably in the form of dots.

This could be done in two ways:

Either only draw the amount of dots that the gun supports. They could initially be gray and turn green when used.

OR

Always draw 8 dots and have active ones in green, inactive ones in gray and unavailable ones in black.

Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261486] Fri, 03 September 2010 18:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
alph

 
Messages:8
Registered:January 2010
Location: China
Eh, I kinda like the two converging dots thing, might be kinda unwieldy for an 8 click gun though. You could have the dots get pseudo logarithmically closer to save space. Might look cooler; be more representative too.

If you really wanted to get fancy you could dynamically space them by the amount of aiming increase each level gives.

I would like to see the used dots stay a different color after they light up though - seems more satisfying somehow.

For the spaces on the bullets, you could try color or shape variations on every fifth instead if spaces take up too much..space.

Or you could just leave it the way it is now, since it is basically fine.
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261488] Fri, 03 September 2010 18:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Headrock

 
Messages:1774
Registered:March 2006
Location: Jerusalem
Quote:
You could have the dots get pseudo logarithmically closer to save space.


As explained in the text above, I already do that. The more pips there are, the smaller the spaces get. An 8-aim-click gun will have 15 pips showing on the same space as above. When there are fewer, however, they stay closer to one another to avoid looking too spaced out. It's actually very neat.

Quote:
If you really wanted to get fancy you could dynamically space them by the amount of aiming increase each level gives.


I don't think that would be good, because if I want to avoid ticks overlapping, an 8-click gun would have a very VERY large aiming indicator. The first aiming click is 8 times more effective than the last. Smile

Quote:
I would like to see the used dots stay a different color after they light up though - seems more satisfying somehow.


So it basically fills up from the sides until they're all full? Not terribly sure that's a good idea, but I'll consider it.

Quote:
For the spaces on the bullets, you could try color or shape variations on every fifth instead if spaces take up too much..space.


It actually looks pretty good with simply spaces, and doesn't take too much space overall. The aiming and bullet indicators are the same width when they're both maxed.


Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261501] Fri, 03 September 2010 20:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Goumindong

 
Messages:5
Registered:September 2010
Headrock
No, because you don't start with 0 CTH. Without aiming you still get free CTH of up to 33%. Comparing that with the outer circle (the true worst shot) can be crucial.


Not true. The true worst shot isn't a factor in this type of examination. It is under the vanilla CTH calcs because the difference between 50% CTH and 70% CTH is relevant, its a 40% boost in accuracy(for the center hit). Such you can then weigh whether that 40% boost in accuracy is something you want.


But with the new system we do not look at raw CTH but rather the area that a bullet can go to (I am getting the idea that the 0 aiming circle is larger in the UI the further you are away from the target. I.E. its always at the cone of the largest area).

Even if that wasn't true we would be looking at direct proportions. That is to say that the ratio of the size of the circle at 70% CTH to the size of the circle at 50% CTH should be the same as the ratio as if we were given the numbers 50% and 70%.

As it is, players will be given direct ratios by the relative size of the circles that they are examining. They will be able to make educated guesses as to the chances to hit for each circle(since they can correspond that to the size of the target they are attempting to hit) and can compare them and make the same marginal examination as they did when they got "50% cth vs 70% cth".

At no point does the widest bar come into the equation.

If you wanted to make it really accurate you could put the aiming information over to the side, or in a corner, and sub-impose a silhouette of the target you're attempting to hit under the reticule but that might make aiming decisions too easy.

Edit: A "perfect" method to have players determine whether or not to increase the aim would be this

For single shots: include the current aiming circle size and the next aiming circle size. As well as the current aiming AP, and the next aiming AP. (last would also work, but next is better since there is no way to go back, this makes the decision relatively less time consuming)

For Burst shots: Include the current aiming circle size and the next aiming circle size as well as the ENDING aiming circle position (and when selecting bullets, the next ending aiming circle position). (as well as next AP costs as well)

These two sets of information contain all of the information that is necessary to make the decision for aiming. Which, like everything else, is/ought to be done on a marginal basis.

Edit2: this (kinda) assumes that, as you seemed to have indicated, the extra aiming in terms of circle size gained from extra clicks relative to the silhouette of the target[I.E. actual chance to land a hit] has a diminishing marginal rate. If not, this complicates the decision somewhat (people still have to check all levels) but still includes more info than typically valuable

[Updated on: Fri, 03 September 2010 20:50] by Moderator

Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261515] Fri, 03 September 2010 22:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Loucipher

 
Messages:159
Registered:October 2009
I can say one thing... WOW.
You have used my advice to redesign the cursor to a very good effect here. Crosshairs doesn't look that heavy now, the reticule doesn't obscur the target so much, and the "two circles" approach seems much more intuitive than before - now I can actually tell the difference between unaimed and aimed shots.
Thumbs up for the targeting pips and bullet count as well. You're spot on with the graphics - it really looks better than text; it's easy to see at a glance how many aim levels were used, and how many bullets will fly in one autofire volley. Two suggestions, though;
1. Grouping bullets by 5 would be a good thing IMO - would make it easier to count them. Alternatively, just put 9 bullet icons in a row, and every time you fill that up, a bigger icon representing 10 bullets shows up to the left. I'm sure you'd need no more than two such icons, so it should be easy to do, and would accomodate higher ROF guns (i.e. MGs and particularly fast-firing SMGs) better.
2. Making pips fill left-to-right (instead of "zeroing in") would facilitate counting two things: how many aim clicks are used, and how many are available in the first place. It's kinda confusing now, since you have to count "inside out", so to speak.

Other than that... a big step in the right direction. Can't wait to test the final version! Smile
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261517] Fri, 03 September 2010 23:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Headrock

 
Messages:1774
Registered:March 2006
Location: Jerusalem
Quote:
It is under the vanilla CTH calcs because the difference between 50% CTH and 70% CTH is relevant, its a 40% boost in accuracy(for the center hit).


Actually no, it's around a 20% boost. The old CTH system worked directly by altering the hit probability. That's mainly why it sucked. So an increase of 20% hit probability was ALWAYS THE SAME, regardless of which weapon you're using or what distance - it's always 20% more likely to hit the target than before.

Quote:
But with the new system we do not look at raw CTH but rather the area that a bullet can go to (I am getting the idea that the 0 aiming circle is larger in the UI the further you are away from the target. I.E. its always at the cone of the largest area).


Precisely.

Quote:
That is to say that the ratio of the size of the circle at 70% CTH to the size of the circle at 50% CTH should be the same as the ratio as if we were given the numbers 50% and 70%.


Yes, but where the old CTH system said "50% hit probability", the new system says "50% of the radius of the large circle". Which is one of the reasons why that large circle is so important.

For example, imagine that the old CTH bar would be EMPTY when no aiming is applied, then increase as you added aiming levels proportionally to the amount of CTH added from each level. In other words, using "Base" cth as the starting point. While the problem isn't the same in NCTH, knowing the difference between 0 and Base is quite important, and it also helps understanding how/why the aiming clicks give as much bonus as they do.

Quote:
At no point does the widest bar come into the equation.


Of course it does. It gives you a measure of the distance, the shooter's condition, and the effect of skill.
Sure, if your aperture is, say, exactly 1 tile across, then it doesn't matter whether your gun is a pistol or a sniper rifle - your chance to hit the target is the same. However, the ratio between how good it is and how bad it was is hugely different between these two. And you can't see that unless you have that outer circle.

Quote:
If you wanted to make it really accurate you could put the aiming information over to the side, or in a corner, and sub-impose a silhouette of the target you're attempting to hit under the reticule but that might make aiming decisions too easy.


Well, that's what the MAIN INDICATOR is supposed to do...

Quote:
A "perfect" method to have players determine whether or not to increase the aim would be this


So you're suggesting adding MORE circles? No, no thanks. As mentioned above, extra clutter will not be appreciated... Not to mention the fact that these extra circles will look terrible when the next aim level is 1 pixel narrower than the last, etcetera...

Quote:
Alternatively, just put 9 bullet icons in a row, and every time you fill that up, a bigger icon representing 10 bullets shows up to the left.


Not so good, because I've got to fill in those bullets. Try to imagine that system working when on one hand I draw grey bullets to show how many CAN be fired, and on the other showing how many bullets WILL be fired. Each has a different number of bullets...

Quote:
Making pips fill left-to-right (instead of "zeroing in") would facilitate counting two things: how many aim clicks are used, and how many are available in the first place. It's kinda confusing now, since you have to count "inside out", so to speak.


Hmmm. That is a good point. I'm still a little reluctant though - I really like that zeroing in. As I said, it replaces that satisfying feel of "aiming to the max"...


Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261519] Fri, 03 September 2010 23:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Goumindong

 
Messages:5
Registered:September 2010
Headrock
Actually no, it's around a 20% boost. The old CTH system worked directly by altering the hit probability. That's mainly why it sucked. So an increase of 20% hit probability was ALWAYS THE SAME, regardless of which weapon you're using or what distance - it's always 20% more likely to hit the target than before.


The issue is that 20% isn't 20%. If you shoot 100 bullets, at 50% CTH 50 of them will land dead center. If you shoot 100 bullets at 75% CTH, 70 of them will land dead center. The proportion of dead center hits is 70/50 or +40%. Moving from 5% accuracy to 25% accuracy is not the same as moving from 80% accuracy to 100% accuracy. The 5->25% boost is actually much larger. When moving from 80% to 100% your shot is 25% more likely to hit(100%/80%). When moving from 5% to 25% your shot is 500% more likely to hit (25%/5%)!

This is especially true as soon as you start to do "average number of trigger pulls before hit occurs" type examinations. The 20% boost in accuracy from 5% to 25% has a much larger effect on this statistic than does the 20% boost in accuracy from 80% to 100%.

The same holds true for expected damage/shot calculations.

Quote:
Yes, but where the old CTH system said "50% hit probability", the new system says "50% of the radius of the large circle". Which is one of the reasons why that large circle is so important.

For example, imagine that the old CTH bar would be EMPTY when no aiming is applied, then increase as you added aiming levels proportionally to the amount of CTH added from each level. In other words, using "Base" cth as the starting point. While the problem isn't the same in NCTH, knowing the difference between 0 and Base is quite important, and it also helps understanding how/why the aiming clicks give as much bonus as they do.


Except that you do not need to know "how far down the bar" you start at with the new system. The old system "how far down the bar" you started at was important, because a 20% boost from 5% was different than a 20% boost at 50% was different than a 20% boost at 80%, even if they all give the same raw number of average hits per 100 shots.

With your new system ALL you need to compare is how large the current circle is and how large the new circle is. The entire problem that is presented with the raw bonuses disappears when you look directly at the proportions.

I.E. if, in the old system each aim click, instead of telling your new CTH, told you "X% more hits than previous aim level" then you would again not need to know the previous CTH level. That information would already be contained within the figure.

Quote:
Of course it does. It gives you a measure of the distance, the shooter's condition, and the effect of skill.
And so does the inner circle. And people can check between different weapons if they want. The issue is that the outer circle adds no value to determining whether or not you should aim more or less. It adds no value to determining whether or not you're going to hit at that current aim level or not. It adds no value in determining whether one weapon is more accurate than the next(since you need to change between weapons anyway, and again, are examining the size of the inner circle to the size of the inner circle for the other)

Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261520] Sat, 04 September 2010 00:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Loucipher

 
Messages:159
Registered:October 2009
Headrock
Not so good, because I've got to fill in those bullets. Try to imagine that system working when on one hand I draw grey bullets to show how many CAN be fired, and on the other showing how many bullets WILL be fired. Each has a different number of bullets...

I can see your point here. My suggestion was just an alternative. What about providing place for 4-5 groups of 5 then, and a plus sign when there's more shots available? At the current ROF of the majority of guns, shooting over 25 bullets in one turn should be rare. If the bullets can be made a bit smaller (or aligned in two rows), you could accomodate up to 30 (which is maximum size for standard mag in a number of calibres used in-game, C-Mags and belts notwithstanding).
Headrock
Hmmm. That is a good point. I'm still a little reluctant though - I really like that zeroing in. As I said, it replaces that satisfying feel of "aiming to the max"...

The "zero in" effect is already well visible in the cursor itself - as the circle shrinks, you can feel the enemy "locked in" the decreasing sights. With the pips, I feel clarity is more important than the eye-candy - you need the info presented as clearly as possible.
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261522] Sat, 04 September 2010 00:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Headrock

 
Messages:1774
Registered:March 2006
Location: Jerusalem
Quote:
The issue is that 20% isn't 20%. If you shoot 100 bullets, at 50% CTH 50 of them will land dead center. If you shoot 100 bullets at 75% CTH, 70 of them will land dead center. The proportion of dead center hits is 70/50 or +40%. Moving from 5% accuracy to 25% accuracy is not the same as moving from 80% accuracy to 100% accuracy. The 5->25% boost is actually much larger. When moving from 80% to 100% your shot is 25% more likely to hit(100%/80%). When moving from 5% to 25% your shot is 500% more likely to hit (25%/5%)!


Firstly, 75% CTH in the old system means that 75 bullets will hit the target, not 70 (actually a little more than 75, but that's not relevant right now).

Secondly, while your math is basically correct, it doesn't apply in game. A CTH increase applies to one bullet, and you increase or decrease it based on that one bullet. Since every shot counts, increasing from 80% to 100% is the same as 5% to 25% as a result.

Of course, this has no bearing on the new CTH system.

Quote:
The issue is that the outer circle adds no value to determining whether or not you should aim more or less.


I didn't say it does, which is the point you keep missing. It's used to understand the size of your Base CTH bonus, which is not reported anywhere else. This makes it possible to compare weapons which give radically difference Base CTH from one another. With a sniper rifle you might get 5% Base, with a pistol 28% base. IMHO, that's something you'd like to know.


Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261523] Sat, 04 September 2010 00:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Headrock

 
Messages:1774
Registered:March 2006
Location: Jerusalem
Quote:
What about providing place for 4-5 groups of 5 then, and a plus sign when there's more shots available?


ATM I have three groups displayed, with the plus sign at the end when there's more. I don't want to use two rows, that wouldn't be pretty. Plus, as Dansken commented in the IRC chat, at some point it becomes irrelevant - you're just "firing lots of bullets" anyway... Might as well guesstimate Wink

Quote:

The "zero in" effect is already well visible in the cursor itself - as the circle shrinks, you can feel the enemy "locked in" the decreasing sights. With the pips, I feel clarity is more important than the eye-candy - you need the info presented as clearly as possible.


Hmmm. Maybe I'll have the inner circle change color to white when the aim clicks are maxed (leaving the outer circle colored to show how far we've gone). I don't think it'll be very pretty though.


Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261524] Sat, 04 September 2010 00:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3743
Registered:July 2009
Absolute maximum you can currently get with realistic weapons would be the 5b/5AP machine guns.
A properly tuned and previously set up (i.e. you can spend a full 100AP on firing this turn) MG3 can send a tad over 70 rounds down range in this scenario in just one turn.

Although I somewhat resist the notion of not being able to see the number of shots I'm going to fire , I guess it really isn't necessary beyond a certain number of bullets. You might want to fire 5 or 6 rounds close up to make sure your opponent stays down, but the actual number doesn't really matter when you just want to scare your opponent with as many pointy metal pieces as possible.

And I agree with Loucipher on the aim level indicator. This 'from edges to center' stuff is harder to count than just one dot moving from left to right.


Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261525] Sat, 04 September 2010 00:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bus

 
Messages:16
Registered:February 2010
These new graphics look really great!

The only weird part are the pips. I think they could be completely removed -- you would still know that you're adding aiming levels when the AP cost increases and the size of the aperture decreases. And you could change the color of the cursor when max aiming level is reached -- just like the original aiming cursor.

As to the bullet count, I agree that the max bullet count doesn't need to be shown. You'll just keep clicking until you spend all your APs. And when there are too many bullets, you could print their actual count instead of just the + sign. E.g. 6 bullets would be displayed as 6 bullet icons but 12 bullets would be displayed as 10 bullet icons with a number 12 printed next to it. (I hope I'm making myself clear.)
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261526] Sat, 04 September 2010 00:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Goumindong

 
Messages:5
Registered:September 2010
Headrock
Secondly, while your math is basically correct, it doesn't apply in game. A CTH increase applies to one bullet, and you increase or decrease it based on that one bullet. Since every shot counts, increasing from 80% to 100% is the same as 5% to 25% as a result.
NO, it very well does apply in game.

When you choose between shots, you choose between the liklihood that they will land. So if you have a 70% chance to hit and that gets bumped to a 80% chance to hit, the second shot is 8/7 times more likely to land. If you choose between 50% and 70% then the 70% shot is going to land 40% more often than the 50% shot is going to land.

Quote:

I didn't say it does, which is the point you keep missing. It's used to understand the size of your Base CTH bonus, which is not reported anywhere else. This makes it possible to compare weapons which give radically difference Base CTH from one another. With a sniper rifle you might get 5% Base, with a pistol 28% base. IMHO, that's something you'd like to know.
Its not reported on the weapon stats? Because if its not then that makes sense, but if it is, then "knowing the size of the base CTH bonus doesn't matter. You will see the difference it makes as soon as you raise the other weapon, in the same way you will see the difference with the large circle as soon as you raise the other weapon.
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261527] Sat, 04 September 2010 01:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dansken

 
Messages:87
Registered:March 2007
Location: Norway
Bus
The only weird part are the pips. I think they could be completely removed -- you would still know that you're adding aiming levels when the AP cost increases and the size of the aperture decreases.


I beg to differ.

The number of pips showing you how many aiming levels are available at a glance, will make it easier and faster to aim. Three pips shown: Quickly right-click three times for max aim ... no need to pause between clicks, checking for color changes or other indications that max aim has been achieved.

This is even more important now that different weapons, attachments and mercs have different levels of aiming available.

[Updated on: Sat, 04 September 2010 01:09] by Moderator

Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261530] Sat, 04 September 2010 01:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bus

 
Messages:16
Registered:February 2010
Ok here's a quick modification of Headrock's image (hope you don't mind that I'm editing your screenshots Smile )

http://img808.imageshack.us/img808/9733/mockup1.gif

As soon as you hit the max aiming level, additional right clicks wouldn't do anything so if you just want to quickly go to max aiming level, you'll right-click a couple of times. And if not, you'll adjust the aiming level according to the aperture size and AP cost, not depending on how many aiming levels you have available. So the number of available aiming levels doesn't really seem that important... But of course this is just me.
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261531] Sat, 04 September 2010 01:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dansken

 
Messages:87
Registered:March 2007
Location: Norway
Bus
As soon as you hit the max aiming level, additional right clicks wouldn't do anything...


I guess you need any additional right-click to reset the aiming to zero. If not, how are you going to reduce your aiming, if you change your mind?
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261535] Sat, 04 September 2010 03:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Headrock

 
Messages:1774
Registered:March 2006
Location: Jerusalem
Quote:
When you choose between shots, you choose between the liklihood that they will land. So if you have a 70% chance to hit and that gets bumped to a 80% chance to hit, the second shot is 8/7 times more likely to land. If you choose between 50% and 70% then the 70% shot is going to land 40% more often than the 50% shot is going to land.


I'll concede this point in silence.

Quote:
Its not reported on the weapon stats?


No. Perhaps you'd like me to display it on screen? For instance, in the form of a single thin curved line displayed around the target?

I really don't see why we're arguing about this to begin with.

Quote:
Ok here's a quick modification of Headrock's image (hope you don't mind that I'm editing your screenshots)


No, that's sometimes the best kind of feedback.

About the colors, That's basically what I was thinking, but in reverse - the crosshairs should turning white when you reach the max aim level, and at all other times the indicator still needs to change color.
If it doesn't change color as you aim, the whole thing will look terribly cold and unfriendly.

Quote:
As soon as you hit the max aiming level, additional right clicks wouldn't do anything so if you just want to quickly go to max aiming level, you'll right-click a couple of times.


Sorry but that's terrible: I'd rather know how many clicks I've got, BEFORE I start clicking... And the pips do that fairly well. Or will do, once they fill up only from one side.

Quote:
I guess you need any additional right-click to reset the aiming to zero. If not, how are you going to reduce your aiming, if you change your mind?


Since I integrated Zilpin's code, you can hold ALT while right-clicking to decrease your clicks. Unfortunately, that is NOT a good solution for something as common as wanting to decrease aiming.


Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261536] Sat, 04 September 2010 04:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bus

 
Messages:16
Registered:February 2010
I guess I'm just too used to the old aiming system Razz. So anyway this is how it works in vanilla: you have a single grayish circle which gets smaller with each aiming click. When you hit the maximum aiming level, the circle turns white. When you right-click one more time, the aiming level DOESN'T change. Instead the circle turns yellow to tell you that you've already reached the maximum. Only now when you click one more time the aiming level resets to zero. This way it is easy to reach the maximum aiming level -- you just keep right-clicking until you notice your cursor turned different color.

The original aiming cursor also didn't have any kind of indicator of the maximum / current aiming level besides the size of the circle. I do realize that the new aiming circle doesn't quite work the same way but I still think it could work as a good enough aiming level indicator anyway.

But of course all of these are just my personal opinions. I trust that whatever will the cursor look in the end, it will still be awesome Smile.

Oh yes and by the way, I think that at present the cursor is just way too colorful. Simple {color 1} when not at full aim and {color 2} when at full aim would be in my opinion sufficient.
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261564] Sat, 04 September 2010 18:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Behrooz

 
Messages:8
Registered:March 2004
Absolutely shocked and awed at the progress you've been making, Headrock!

Does the alt-right-click also work to subtract bullets from a burst? Best of all, could we have alt-clicking wrap-around from zero to max, so starting out at one bullet and alt-right-clicking wraps right back to the maximum number of bullets/aim levels with current AP remaining? That would be a nice change for suppression-addicts like myself and would help negate the '10-20-30 clicks for a long burst' issue.

As far as the current cursor, I like the 'zeroing in'-style aiming level pips, they're gorgeous, and I think they give adequate information for the situation-- after some point I don't need to count the aim levels individually to know 'I have 2/3/LOTS of aiming levels I can use on this shot' or 'I'm almost using my maximum aim level'.

Counting the difference between having 8 aiming levels and 6 aiming levels seems like something we're more likely to be concerned about when comparing different weapons/attachments, not lining up any individual shot in the field. Does that show up prominently in the info boxes?
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261569] Sat, 04 September 2010 19:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Headrock

 
Messages:1774
Registered:March 2006
Location: Jerusalem
Quote:
Does the alt-right-click also work to subtract bullets from a burst?


Yes. Also, as per Zilpin's system, you can set a menu option that makes both Aiming and Bullets jump to full when right-click is pressed, and then reduce with each right-click. When they reach minimum the next right click again boosts you back to full. When the menu option is active ALT also reverses, so when it's pressed it gives you the original (increasing) functionality.

Quote:
Does that show up prominently in the info boxes?


Yes, it does. UDB now shows aiming clicks for each weapon. I decided to add this because I also added a modifier for attachments that can increase/reduce the number of clicks available (again, as explained above, FEWER IS BETTER now).


Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261573] Sat, 04 September 2010 20:23 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Behrooz

 
Messages:8
Registered:March 2004
Awesome!
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