Home » MODDING HQ 1.13 » v1.13 Idea Incubation Lab  » New CTH system - Presentation
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #290080] Tue, 30 August 2011 20:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Cell

 
Messages:669
Registered:February 2011
User deleted
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #290081] Tue, 30 August 2011 20:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Logisteric

 
Messages:3474
Registered:December 2008
Location: B
lol - no, double-plus-lol

that goes down to the metallurgie of barrels. i dare say that's considerred at least a company secret. for our american friends it's most likely a matter of national security. :placard:

edith: ask starwalker, he tried to get data for his formulas just outside the reach of wikipedia

[Updated on: Tue, 30 August 2011 20:12] by Moderator

Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #290082] Tue, 30 August 2011 20:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Cell

 
Messages:669
Registered:February 2011
User deleted
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #290083] Tue, 30 August 2011 20:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wil473

 
Messages:2815
Registered:September 2004
Location: Canada
Cell
Thats not really a problem! You can everything find on wikipedia and other sites. But the most is given on wikipedia. THats really a small thing to do Wink And i have no problem to do that meaning to find out which data is left.


I'm going to have to call BS on this one - I cannot find all the data I wanted to flesh out OCTH, let alone NCTH. Not to mention the known problems with the initial NCTH implementation, and the related burn out. Quite frankly wikipedia is a last resort for even something as trivial as a game.

[Updated on: Tue, 30 August 2011 20:20] by Moderator



Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #290089] Tue, 30 August 2011 22:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Cell

 
Messages:669
Registered:February 2011
User deleted
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #290092] Tue, 30 August 2011 23:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JMich

 
Messages:580
Registered:January 2011
Location: Greece
Cell
I'm confused about which ROF the weapon uses because different ROFs will result in different recoil effects. Faster ROF will smaller the difference between bullet #3,#4,#5 slower ROF will wider the distance between bullet #3,#4,#5.
Actually, unless the ROF is really really high (meaning that the bullets leave before recoil is felt), the opposite is true. Consider the very slow rate of fire of 1 round per minute. Bullet is fired, recoil is felt, weapon is adjusted, second bullet is fired. Increase ROF so the 2nd bullet leaves just as weapon is adjusted to be back on target.
On the other hand, increase the ROF so the second bullet fires when the weapon is at maximum displacement. Before you have the time to adjust the weapon, the 2nd bullet kicks in and moves it even more.
Cell
CFF is also dependent on how fast/slow the weapon is in other words which ROF is given. SO higher ROFs will result in more bullets per reaction time. I made a suggestion how reaction time could look like with some pseudo calculation: http://www.ja-galaxy-forum.com/board/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=289846#Post289846

Its not only EXP or WIS which result in better reaction time its more or less DEX!!!

Oh man ... i will come back to this.
ROF currently influences CFF by the tag bAutofireShotsPerFiveAP as mentioned earlier by ChrisL. So far, we do not have a formula to translate 900 RPM to x bAutofireShotsPerFiveAP, but still the tag bAutofireShotsPerFiveAP is based on ROF. So how many bullets fly before counterforce is applied is based on ROF.

P.S. I think that CFF and CFM were changed quite a bit from HR's presentation, so you'd have to find the other thread where it was discussed, but not sure where it currently lies.
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #290093] Tue, 30 August 2011 23:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Cell

 
Messages:669
Registered:February 2011
User deleted
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #290094] Wed, 31 August 2011 00:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3773
Registered:July 2009
JMich
So far, we do not have a formula to translate 900 RPM to x bAutofireShotsPerFiveAP, but still the tag bAutofireShotsPerFiveAP is based on ROF.
The 'official' 1.13 formula (i.e. the one Starwalker posted somewhere) is S/5AP = ROF/240 for the 100 AP system.


Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #290095] Wed, 31 August 2011 00:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Cell

 
Messages:669
Registered:February 2011
User deleted
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #290096] Wed, 31 August 2011 00:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3773
Registered:July 2009
Of course it is, but what's that other stuff about? Especially calculating shots per burst seems dubious unless you mix up terms again.


Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #290099] Wed, 31 August 2011 00:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Cell

 
Messages:669
Registered:February 2011
User deleted
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #290100] Wed, 31 August 2011 00:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3773
Registered:July 2009
Because if an MP5 comes with a 3rd burst mode, it'll fire three rounds, nothing to calculate.


Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #290101] Wed, 31 August 2011 00:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Cell

 
Messages:669
Registered:February 2011
User deleted
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #290102] Wed, 31 August 2011 00:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3773
Registered:July 2009
For the 1274th time then, write what you mean and not just some fancy word groupings. In before your usual phrase, no, it's not obvious/self explanatory and re-reading won't make it so that Cell
Shots per 4 turns = ROF / 3
Shots per burst = 100 / (ROF / 36)
stands for the AP costs to fire a burst instead of the shots in that burst


Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #290103] Wed, 31 August 2011 00:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Cell

 
Messages:669
Registered:February 2011
User deleted
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #290104] Wed, 31 August 2011 01:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ctiberious

 
Messages:607
Registered:March 2007
Where are you guys getting this "Shots per 4 turns = ROF / 3" stuff?

ubShotsPer4Turns was generated by Starwalker using the following formula:
(8*DEF_AP*100) / ((100+DEF_AIM)*X)
where:
DEF_AP = 80 and represents the default AP value
DEF_AIM = 80 and represents the default marksmenship skill
X represents the intended AP cost based on the above defaults. This value is based on a number of complex calculations which include weapon weight, weapon (and barrel) length, an expected recovery AP cost (which is partially arbitrarily set), and a "SA ROF" which is also a seemingly arbitrary value (though maybe I'm just not seeing where he's getting those last two values). All these calculations are part of the NewAPandS4T.xls file which Starwalker sent to RoWa and I a few months ago and which RoWa has made available in the Development Trunk, Dev Docs folder.

bBurstAP is generated similarly to ubShotsPer4Turns except that the weapons burst ROF is included in the calculation. This is all found in the BurstAP.xls file located in the same place as the above mentioned file.

bAutofireShotsPerFiveAP is the AP cost of firing additional rounds in an autofire sequence. I beleive it's calculation is also shown in the BurstAP.xls file though I can't tell where some of the variables came from. That said, the variables used include "SA ROF" and "Speed".

Single fire AP cost is generated using ubShotsPer4Turns.
Burstfire AP cost is generated using bBurstAP.
Autofire AP cost starts with ubShotsPer4Turns to calculate the AP cost to fire a single round and recover from the entire shooting sequence. You then add additional APs for each additional round fired. The additional AP cost is based on bAutofireShotsPerFiveAP which was originally generated based on ROF.

Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #290105] Wed, 31 August 2011 01:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Cell

 
Messages:669
Registered:February 2011
User deleted
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #290106] Wed, 31 August 2011 02:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ctiberious

 
Messages:607
Registered:March 2007
DEFAULT_APS and DEFAULT_AIMSKILL are APBP constants that the game uses to calculate default AP costs. That is, the AP costs the game displays when it doesn't have any merc/soldier data to use. For instance, if you see an AP cost listed when looking at a weapon you're thinking of buying from Bobby Rays or another shopkeeper. They are both set to 80 because that's what Starwalker used to calculate the S4T base values. And he used them because they were the original hard coded values that the game was programmed with (well, technically is was 20 for DEFAULT_APS when we had only the original 25AP system).

The M16 fires at 700-950rpm based on the wiki. That's 11.67 - 15.83 rounds per second. A combat turn is approximately 5 seconds long which means there are approximately 16 APs in a second (based on a defult of 80 APs) which means the M16 fires something like 1 round every 1.37 - 1.01 APs. Looking in the xml file, we see that the M16 has a bAutofireShotsPerFiveAP of 4. Which means we're telling the game that 1 round fires every 1.25 AP or about 768rpm. That seems to line up with a valid amount of deviation.
The Minimi fires at 700-1150rpm based on the wiki. That's 11.67 - 19.17 rounds per second. This means a Minimi fires something like 1 round every 1.37 - 0.84 APs. In the xml file the Minimi has a bAutofireShotsPerFiveAP of 5 which means 1 round per AP or about 960rpm. Again, that seems to line up with a valid amount of deviation.
So based on these two examples, I'm not sure how you justify saying it's "some kind of voodoo calculation".
Anyway, I'm not going to argue it with you. I'm simply reporting what's in the xls files. And I've already explained that the recoil system factors ROF based on the bAutofireShotsPerFiveAP value. If you think that value is wrong, fix it, and the recoil system will update itself automatically.

Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #290126] Wed, 31 August 2011 14:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Cell

 
Messages:669
Registered:February 2011
User deleted
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #290141] Wed, 31 August 2011 15:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3773
Registered:July 2009
This is just wrong on so many levels, but I guess uniformity is also a form of balance.


Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #290142] Wed, 31 August 2011 16:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Cell

 
Messages:669
Registered:February 2011
User deleted
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #290143] Wed, 31 August 2011 16:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3773
Registered:July 2009
1) AP cost is one of the more important attributes - you remove all diversity by giving all weapons single shot costs of 1 or 2 AP
2) You kick OCTH balance out of the window as both use the same S/4T value but there 50 unaimed shots with a decent gun mean 50 dead on the other side - nuts


Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #290145] Wed, 31 August 2011 16:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wil473

 
Messages:2815
Registered:September 2004
Location: Canada
Ignoring for the moment Cell's refusal to entertain single shots being more than simple Rate of Fire (see ChrisL's description earlier on how S/4T is derived, among other attempts to explain this) - there is also the matter of confusing the rate of discrete single shots (pull trigger, shot, release trigger, wait for trigger to reset if necessary, pull...) with the cyclic rates for automatic and burst fire. I'm relatively certain that ROF for repeated single shots is not a three digit number (for the average weapon/shooter combination). With the example of the FN Minimi, despite being full auto only there still must be some kind of equivalent ROF when single shots are attempted, being full auto only it also is a very bad example as it doesn't have a normal single shot mode when you are talking about the tag for single shot AP costs (S/4T).

[Updated on: Wed, 31 August 2011 16:52] by Moderator



Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #290146] Wed, 31 August 2011 16:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Cell

 
Messages:669
Registered:February 2011
User deleted
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #290155] Wed, 31 August 2011 19:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ctiberious

 
Messages:607
Registered:March 2007
Let me state this here for everyone. ubShotsPer4Turns has NOTHING to do with RoF I've said this before but apparently people keep ignoring it. S4T doesn't concern itself with RoF because S4T is the value used to simply fire a weapon and recover from shooting said weapon. Period. Can I make this any clearer? If you found some way to increase (or decrease) the RoF of a weapon, it's S4T value WOULD NOT change. Why? Because regardless of the weapons rate of fire, a single round will leave the weapon in miliseconds.

The DEFAULT_APS value is 80 which means the "average" merc is expected to have 80 APs. Not 100. Hence, we use 80 APs when running these kind of calculations.

Anyway, there are no "voodoo calculations" going on. This is all pretty simple math. What I would suggest is that you download the spreadhsheets I refered to and read them. I mean, an S4T value of 333.33 will result in a weapon taking less then 1 AP to fire. That's just plain stupid.

Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #290159] Wed, 31 August 2011 20:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Cell

 
Messages:669
Registered:February 2011
User deleted
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #290161] Wed, 31 August 2011 21:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3773
Registered:July 2009
Cell
What you said would mean we have doubled recoil penalties when burst/autofire and how long
Not at all. One applies during the action (fighting the recoil while firing) the other afterwards (bringing the gun back on target from wherever it pointed in the end), the latter is the only one that occurs with single shots. Cell
and how long those merc need to "Negate ALL recoil and bring the weapon back to a firing state" watch some clips on youtube about shooting trainers and see how fast say can fire even with single fire and hit btw on what they aim... nothing more to say.
Maybe the firing costs are a bit high, maybe not - there has been talk about shooting and moving not really matching up in their time consumption. That still doesnt mean that
1)ROF would have any connection to S/4T
2)1AP would be an adequate valueCell
And as i said your calculation are based on wrong imagination about "shooting" like the recoil mechanism we have right now but the intolerance will perfectly take their part on hiding where the mistakes are.
Accusing others of ignorance but meeting every explanation with the same fervent denial ... nothing more to say.


Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #290170] Wed, 31 August 2011 23:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ctiberious

 
Messages:607
Registered:March 2007
S4T is the AP cost to fire and recover from a single round.

S4T is ALSO the AP cost to fire the first round in an autofire sequence, and to recover from the ENTIRE sequence. Each round after the first in an autofire sequence costs additional APs which are calculated using the bAutofireShotsPerFiveAP tag (which IS based on ROF).

S4T is ALSO the AP cost to fire the first round in a burst fire sequence, and to recover from the ENTIRE sequence. The remainder of the burst fire AP cost is generated using the bBurstAP tag. Presumably because there is a static number of rounds being fired.

You can see all this in the code. In Points.cpp, find the 'CalcTotalAPsToAttack' function. The first thing we do is set sAPCost to the results of a call to 'MinAPsToAttack' and if you look in there, guns use the equatino found in 'MinAPsToShootOrStab' which is based on S4T. So:
sAPCost = 'MinAPsToAttack' = 'MinAPsToShootOrStab' = 'S4T equation'
After we set the initial sAPCost, we look to see if we're firing the weapon in Autofire or Burst fire modes. If we're in autofire mode, we ADD the results of 'CalcAPsToAutofire' function to sAPCost and if we're in busrt fire mode we ADD the results of 'CalcAPsToBurst' function to sAPCost.

In other words, S4T is the number of APs it takes to fire "1 ROUND", and to recover at the END of the firing sequence. If you're firing more then one round (i.e., auto and burst fire) then the AP cost of the ADDITIONAL rounds is also added in. But those ADDITIONAL rounds are seperate from the S4T value. And, as such, rate of fire has no real bearing on the S4T value. S4T is strictly the "speed" of the weapon and how long it take to recover from the weapons recoil AFTER all shots are fired.

And, yes. I know it's perfectly feasible for exceptional marksmen to accurately empty multiple pistol mags in under 5 seconds. I know from my own experience that I can accurately fire (fully aimed, no less) more then 4 rounds from an M1911A1 pistol in 5 seconds even though the game says you can only fire an M1911A1 maybe 4 time WITHOUT aiming. Part of this is game balance. If you can accurately fire all (or at least a large part) of a mag in 1 combat turn, then most combat would be over in one turn. Another part is the "average" guy can't accurately burn through a 30rnd mag in under 5 seconds. And another part is the fact that your youtube videos are of people firing for demonstration purposes where no one is shooting back at them. All that and more is why we don't allow you to empty a mag into a target in 1 combat turn.

Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #290172] Wed, 31 August 2011 23:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Cell

 
Messages:669
Registered:February 2011
User deleted
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #290174] Thu, 01 September 2011 00:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3773
Registered:July 2009
Cell
This is individually merc dependant and not part of a pseudo merc ability calculation which we have now.
It is merc dependent. The 'standard merc' is used to derive the value for the XML and -I think- for BR. When firing, the AP and MRK of the actual merc is taken (higher MRK -> lower AP -> more shots). Yes, maybe stat X should also play a role, the point is, the merc is taken into account. Did you take a deeper look into those mechanics before playing with fancy equations and devising a whole new system of your own?

- The wiki is old, short and in places misleading.
- Not everything you declare to be self-explanatory is.
- Asking helps, but dismissing every answer you get as 'wrong' doesn't help your understanding.

Cell
The recovery time is dependant on cartridge/weapon fired! And you said to me that you currently cant make an equation with merc stats but you can with APs which are spent to recover? mysterious.
Did you look at those .xls files Chris keeps mentioning? It is, just in the external calculations.


Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #290177] Thu, 01 September 2011 00:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Cell

 
Messages:669
Registered:February 2011
User deleted
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #290197] Thu, 01 September 2011 16:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bever

 
Messages:24
Registered:March 2009
Location: Australia
Hey guys since this topic has become once again active I just thought I'd pop in and ask if there has been any progress on a guide explaining all the new xml tags that popped up due to NCTH. I remember ChrisL saying it was on his to do list but no idea if it's been done yet or where to look for it.

In regards to the current debates raging in this topic my two cents as a small personal modder is that the number of variables we need to fill in when making./customising our weapons is already enough to get some good variety without being overly complex... i think if I had to research all these specifics like barrel length and other gun properties affecting ballistics and recoil it would kind of turn me off.

Anyway thats just my two cents worth and remeber guys it's just a game sometimes these debates get way to serious!

Very Happy
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #290200] Thu, 01 September 2011 16:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3773
Registered:July 2009
wil473 started a new thread just yesterday to create an overview of the NCTH tags we got right now.


Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #290203] Thu, 01 September 2011 16:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bever

 
Messages:24
Registered:March 2009
Location: Australia
Cheers man thanks for the quick reply :super:
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #290224] Thu, 01 September 2011 19:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ctiberious

 
Messages:607
Registered:March 2007
First, a merc with more APs doesn't fire a weapon any faster then a merc with fewer APs.
S4T is a "time based" activity meaning the weapon takes a finite amount of time to fire regardless of who is firing it. A 20AP merc takes just as long (time-wise) to fire a gun as a 100AP merc. Therefore, a 20AP merc might only have to pay 5AP to fire a weapon while a 100AP merc might have to pay 25AP to fire the same weapon. Understand, I'm just talking about actually firing the weapon. Not readying or aiming the weapon. S4T us the number of shots that can be fired in 20 seconds. A weapon with S4T=13.3 can be fired approximatly once every 1.5 seconds. A 100AP merc uses 20AP/second so requires 30AP to fire this weapon. A 20AP merc uses only 4AP/second and therefore only requires 6AP to fire the weapon. In either case, the same amount of "time" is spent.
On the other hand, readying and aiming a weapon (as well as most other actions like reloading, moving and looking around) are "speed based" activities. A merc with 100AP can do these actions faster then a merc with only 20AP. So if it costs 4AP to move a tile, a 100AP merc is fast and can move 25 tiles while a 20AP merc is slow and can only move 5 tiles. The same amount of time passes but the faster merc moves further.

And the reason we calculate S4T based on an 80MRK/80AP merc is we need some kind of base. Not only do we need this base for actual S4T calculations when a merc shots a gun, but we need a base when you look at a weapon in a shoppkeepers inventory when you're deciding whether to buy it or not.
And you can't use RoF in place of the base S4T because, again, S4T has nothing to do with a weapons rate of fire. I don't care if a weapon fires 100RPM or 10000RPM, the time involved in pulling the trigger (and recovering from the shot) isn't really going to change. Take an M16 (700-950rpm). Assume it takes 1 second to pull the trigger and recover. Now take that M16 to a magic gunsmith and have him tweek it so that it has a 1400-1900RPM rate of fire. It's still going to take 1 second to pull the trigger and recover from the shot. All you've done is increase the number of rounds that get fired in auto and burst fire modes. But actually pull the trigger and recovering isn't going to change.
And, as I've said, the AP cost for firing ADDITIONAL rounds in burst and autofire modes ARE based on ROF. They are simply seperate tags which get added to the S4T tag to determine the final AP cost. Take an M16 and fire it. Even in autofire mode if you fire just a single round, you're going to only pay the single round S4T cost. If you fire 2 rounds in burst/autofire mode, you're going to pay the single round S4T cost PLUS the auto or bust fire cost for 1 additional round. 3 rounds fired, you pay the single round S4T cost PLUS the auto/busrt fire cost for 2 additional rounds. Etc, etc.
Going back to my above example, the 700-950rpm M16 that takes 1 second to fire (let's say that equals 20AP) might need 22AP to fire a 2 rnd burst. That is 20AP for the single round cost (which includes recovery at the end of the shooting sequence) plus 2AP for the extra round fired. While the 1400-1900RPM M16 might take only 21AP. 20AP for the single round cost plus 1AP for the extra round fired.

And no BeVeR. I still haven't gotten to it. I have alot on my todo list and right now real life has been playing havoc with what free time I have. Smile

Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #292802] Fri, 28 October 2011 03:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Xarren
Messages:3
Registered:October 2011
Hi guys, I've read through a lot of this, but I can't find seem to find any definition for the "Normal" range.

I understand that it is the range the weapon is meant to be fired at - but what exactly is that range? How do we find that range for specific guns?
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #292808] Fri, 28 October 2011 10:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3773
Registered:July 2009
It's not gun specific, it's arbitrarily set to 70m (7 tiles) in the ini file and counts for all guns.

Didn't read all this stuff in a long time, but I think it's mainly used as a fix point on which all the scope calculations are based.


Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #293004] Wed, 02 November 2011 16:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ctiberious

 
Messages:607
Registered:March 2007
NORMAL_SHOOTING_DISTANCE is used for ALL vision ratio calculations. That means it's used for scopes, laser sights and "scopeless" shots.

Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #293006] Wed, 02 November 2011 20:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
tais

 
Messages:811
Registered:February 2008
Location: NL
Is it me or has NCTH grown up, cause I just shot two long range sniper shots straight to the head with no wonky effects....

☆☆M☆☆
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #293023] Thu, 03 November 2011 09:44 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
usrbid

 
Messages:1580
Registered:December 2008
Burst with trigger groups work great, the same with a three round auto - forget it, tried it 20+ times, all miss. It used to be that auto experts can spent all APs and mow down schools of enemies, not anymore. But the three round burst are awesome, most of the time all three hit, which even in 5.56 will terminate that one enemy reliably.


Previous Topic: Alternative Music Pack??
Next Topic: Instead of keep moding v1.13 why not create a WHOLE NEW GAME?
Goto Forum:
  


Current Time: Fri Oct 20 04:12:03 EEST 2017

Total time taken to generate the page: 0.02171 seconds