Home » MODDING HQ 1.13 » v1.13 Idea Incubation Lab  » New CTH system - Presentation
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #334828] Thu, 07 August 2014 18:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kirill_OverK

 
Messages:263
Registered:September 2010


_____

*Global problem -

new 1.13 builds - have full random every load.
(if load of game is past - in new build of 1.13 -
every load we have "new past".. with different result every time)
That fully illogical.


not as in original ja2\ja2:UB ..


I think the original system of factors was much more interesting.
(like a game in chess, with the calculation of moves)

you had a limit on number of variants for outcome of events...
in new builds of 1.13 - you have NO limit.

you can load&load - until you get desired result FOR you...
not for enemy ...


[color:#FF0000]it big problem ...[/color]

hole for manipulation ... makes the game much easier..
& less interesting.

This is a game in chess, - but the result of it - dictate by you !
you load&load till you win ...



it is unfair...



==
some other part of message is here -
http://www.ja-galaxy-forum.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/334818#Post334818



_______

[Updated on: Thu, 07 August 2014 18:53] by Moderator

Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #334834] Fri, 08 August 2014 09:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2164
Registered:May 2009
Actually it's not a problem of the game. If at all it is a problem of the player that loves quickload.
You could trick the old system just the same. If you didn't like the outcome of an action just change your actions a little and the outcome is different.

Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #334841] Fri, 08 August 2014 15:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kirill_OverK

 
Messages:263
Registered:September 2010
silversurfer
Actually it's not a problem of the game. If at all it is a problem of the player that loves quickload.
You could trick the old system just the same. If you didn't like the outcome of an action just change your actions a little and the outcome is different.



No, the difference is quite large.


1. ja2-original [color:#CC0000]pre-random[/color] -

a.) you have a limit on the number of combinations

b.) to change something in chain of events, - you must act, - move other mercs or shoot with other mercs or something similar.
(you need to think, calculate combinations, as in chess)


================
2. ja2-1.13 last builds - ([color:#006600]full-random[/color])

a.) you have NO limit on the number of combinations you can load&load .. 10 .. 20 .. 100 times ...
(every load - different result)


b.) to change something in chain of events you just need press load buttons ... Smile



====
[color:#CC0000]in interrupt mode[/color] - difference in approach becomes a much stronger.

original - you have about 3-5 .. may be 7(max) combinations ...
(because only one merc involved)


1.13-full random - you have about AGAIN .. - an infinite number combinations...
(load&load till get result)

Real fraud ! Smile



[color:#660000]Now the difference is understandable ?[/color]




__

[Updated on: Fri, 08 August 2014 16:04] by Moderator

Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #334843] Fri, 08 August 2014 16:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2164
Registered:May 2009
Actually I don't care one bit how players like to ruin their gaming experience by cheating. Might as well do CTRL+GABBI and kill everything by the press of a button.
If you like pressing ALT+L all the time have fun with it. If you don't like it JUST DON'T DO IT. It's really that simple.

Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #334848] Fri, 08 August 2014 18:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kirill_OverK

 
Messages:263
Registered:September 2010
silversurfer
Actually I don't care one bit how players like to ruin their gaming experience by cheating. Might as well do CTRL+GABBI and kill everything by the press of a button.
If you like pressing ALT+L all the time have fun with it. If you don't like it JUST DON'T DO IT. It's really that simple.


it's not so easy as you write ..
Smile
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #334857] Fri, 08 August 2014 23:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Flugente

 
Messages:3160
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
It is. The old method of generating random numbers and then using them throughout the campaign had annoying consequences - if this 'seed' was bad, you could have abnormally high chances for ALL checks during the entire campaign. The current method is truly random, as it should be.

The only way you'll notice the difference is by save-scumming, and I see no reason to reward that behaviour.


Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #334862] Fri, 08 August 2014 23:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kirill_OverK

 
Messages:263
Registered:September 2010
Flugente
It is. The old method of generating random numbers and then using them throughout the campaign had annoying consequences - if this 'seed' was bad, you could have abnormally high chances for ALL checks during the entire campaign. The current method is truly random, as it should be.

The only way you'll notice the difference is by save-scumming, and I see no reason to reward that behaviour.



it's no true random, it's true fraud Smile



how history(save) or the past can be different each time ?

SAVE .. - save you history.
(save game state\status)


now every load you generate NEW history.
Smile

it is completely illogical, besides all - greatly simplifies the game.


to get out of any difficult situation -
[color:#990000]you just need press alt+L many times...
[/color]
ROFL


it's just absurd ... Sad


=======

[Updated on: Fri, 08 August 2014 23:59] by Moderator

Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #334863] Fri, 08 August 2014 23:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Flugente

 
Messages:3160
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
How is 'roll a random number' not 'random'? (Apart from issues of wether random number generation is really random)

Also, what is the problem here? Are you that desperate for easier save-scumming?


Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #334864] Sat, 09 August 2014 00:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Slax

 
Messages:1439
Registered:July 2006
Location: People riding polar bears...
So play on iron man, ya dope.

Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #334865] Sat, 09 August 2014 01:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2164
Registered:May 2009
Slax
So play on iron man, ya dope.

Exactly. If he can't contain himself he can select iron man. Problem solved.

Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #334866] Sat, 09 August 2014 02:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gambigobilla

 
Messages:719
Registered:July 2008
Currently there are many other ways of free cheating. I couldn't care less if there is one more or less. This is a single-player game, play as you like.
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #334872] Sat, 09 August 2014 04:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kirill_OverK

 
Messages:263
Registered:September 2010
Slax
So play on iron man, ya dope.


this is not a solution .. \ not use load many times - also not solution too.


why not make 2 models of play ? .. at start of the game -

1. pre-random table (as in original ja2)

2. full-random (as now)


===
compromise solution....



____
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #334873] Sat, 09 August 2014 04:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Flugente

 
Messages:3160
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
Random chances are used throughout the entire code. We will not alter the entire source code just to satisfy someone's peculiar tastes.


Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #334877] Sat, 09 August 2014 04:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Slax

 
Messages:1439
Registered:July 2006
Location: People riding polar bears...
You know you can still play with the old chance to hit system, right?

Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #334880] Sat, 09 August 2014 12:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Flugente

 
Messages:3160
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
@Slax: This issue isn't restricted to CTH systems, and the old CTH system doesn't use a fixed table or random numbers anymore anyway afaik.


Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #334881] Sat, 09 August 2014 13:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Slax

 
Messages:1439
Registered:July 2006
Location: People riding polar bears...
So, what are we even talking about here?

I mean, in vanilla JA2 you very much had the option to reload until you get a perfect shot or whatever. Any minor action before the shot (look around with someone, crouch, stand up...) would change the result. Effectively cheesing the system, I guess. But since that apparently isn't the topic at hand... man, I just don't know what's going on here.

Thought this was a game about strategy and tactics, not number crunching. Razz

Preset random table, full random... how are you even going to spot a difference?

Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #334882] Sat, 09 August 2014 13:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3773
Registered:July 2009
Reload, if you get same results for same actions it's preset.


Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #334887] Sat, 09 August 2014 15:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kirill_OverK

 
Messages:263
Registered:September 2010
Slax
So, what are we even talking about here?

I mean, in vanilla JA2 you very much had the option to reload until you get a perfect shot or whatever. Any minor action before the shot (look around with someone, crouch, stand up...)


right ...

like in chess game where you load, back you turn and think again,
what you make wrong & what you can fix ...


=====
at current full-random system - you need just load&load .. -

I think it makes the game less interesting ... -

now do not have to think or to combine something ... - PUSH many times on load & you win ! Smile)


in pre-generated table is nothing bad, that table on all battle,

as lot(draw) before a football match...


I will give a graphic example based on the game of chess in real life .. ok ? -


http://111.imagebam.com/download/UYUdAPSXzz18fP-DAId-zw/34398/343979183/rand.png



____
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #334888] Sat, 09 August 2014 15:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3773
Registered:July 2009
The problem is still 'loading' so the solution is still 'don't load'. And stop that chess comparison, at best pre-random is like hitting ctrl-z on solitaire.


Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #334890] Sat, 09 August 2014 16:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Slax

 
Messages:1439
Registered:July 2006
Location: People riding polar bears...
So what you really want is a perfect AI that knows everything about everything and will always stay at least two steps ahead of you.
The player would need to meta-game all over the place to even remotely stand a chance. Basically, looking for flaws in the game in order to win. Sounds kinda pointless, doesn't it?

Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #334893] Sat, 09 August 2014 18:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2164
Registered:May 2009
My oh my, never read such nonsense before. Loading a savegame also erases the past... I hope my savegames always remember what I have done. So far they do...

This thread is about presenting the NCTH system, not chess, not writing the future down somewhere. Please stick to the topic or create your own thread in the feature requests section.
Might as well save the time because no coder is going to implement such system which can be easily circumvented. It's nothing but a big waste of time.

Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #334894] Sat, 09 August 2014 20:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kirill_OverK

 
Messages:263
Registered:September 2010
DepressivesBrot
The problem is still 'loading' so the solution is still 'don't load'. And stop that chess comparison, at best pre-random is like hitting ctrl-z on solitaire.


so ..

my idea & old pre-random system is bad ?


===
1.13 can support old & new random systems simultaneously ?
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #334907] Sun, 10 August 2014 12:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Meitsi

 
Messages:17
Registered:June 2009
Location: Finland
The easy solution to your problem is not to load, so why go through all the trouble of coding something only you see the need for?
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #334920] Sun, 10 August 2014 17:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kirill_OverK

 
Messages:263
Registered:September 2010
Meitsi
The easy solution to your problem is not to load,


it not solution.


that solution change all gameplay... Sad



===
Iron mode - not solution too - it will be other game ...
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #334927] Sun, 10 August 2014 21:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2164
Registered:May 2009
Kirill
Meitsi
The easy solution to your problem is not to load,


it not solution.

Actually it is a solution. But it's a solution that you don't like. Why do you want to load anyway? You only need to load because you want to cheat and because you are not satisfied with the outcome of an action otherwise there is no need to do it.

So stop wasting our time.

Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #334940] Mon, 11 August 2014 16:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kirill_OverK

 
Messages:263
Registered:September 2010

thanks ! Smile
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #334941] Mon, 11 August 2014 16:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kirill_OverK

 
Messages:263
Registered:September 2010


=====
Do you understand, that new New CTH system, what Headrock makes so long time, with full-random loses its meaning ?


New CTH system by complex calculations - says you will get into the target or not in a specific situation and time.

not just as old system - 0 or 100%.



=====
but why we need complex calculations by New CTH system if after load, we get new calculations ?


which calculations considered correct ?


before load .. after load ? Smile


why we need complex calculations from New CTH system if every load, we get different result ...?
Smile

full absurdity ....


______


[Updated on: Mon, 11 August 2014 16:19] by Moderator

Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #334943] Mon, 11 August 2014 19:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3773
Registered:July 2009
Heady wrote the system with actual random numbers.


Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #334944] Mon, 11 August 2014 20:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Slax

 
Messages:1439
Registered:July 2006
Location: People riding polar bears...
So. Don't. Play. With. NCTH.
With the way you explain your style of play, you might as well mod in and spawn 10 perfectly accurate guns in Omerta.

Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #334946] Mon, 11 August 2014 22:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Meitsi

 
Messages:17
Registered:June 2009
Location: Finland
As you load your game, you are erasing what you've done, so why is it important that loading brings those calculations back? Since loading basically means you want to change something that happened, why should the system give you the chance to use your knowledge of the future to your advantage?

Yes this has the side-effect of giving load spammers the chance to hit every shot, but that is everyones choise to use or not.
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #334947] Mon, 11 August 2014 22:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3773
Registered:July 2009
Pre-Random and 'true' random each have their advantages and exploits. While TR theoretically allows for 'perfect' streaks without changing anything if you just keep loading long enough(!), PR gives you the knowledge that a certain 'chain' of events will work every time you try it and thus allows for easy backtracking to optimise those chains, adding a 'right call' to the end.

Non technical:
If you load enough, you can exploit either system. If we broke your favourite way of cheating, tough luck. Stop making up bullshit justifications why the old system was allegedly less cheaty.


Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #334958] Tue, 12 August 2014 16:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kirill_OverK

 
Messages:263
Registered:September 2010
Meitsi

Yes this has the side-effect of giving load spammers the chance to hit every shot, but that is everyones choise to use or not.


But .. if some important merc was died what I must to do ?

not load ? Smile

---
of course 90 or 95% of gamers take a load & try to change something .. right ?


but different between old and new system is - in new - you can do nothing ... - just load 2-3 times ..

and enemy can miss ... - in OLD(pre-random) you must do ACTIONs to save you merc.

or he die .. again & again ...


It principle different gameplay ...


do you understand ?



___

[Updated on: Tue, 12 August 2014 16:40] by Moderator

Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #334959] Tue, 12 August 2014 16:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Slax

 
Messages:1439
Registered:July 2006
Location: People riding polar bears...
That's your fault for saving too damn often then. You put yourself in an unwinnable situation, you deal with it. Get better, learn things.

Do you understand?

Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #334967] Tue, 12 August 2014 23:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gambigobilla

 
Messages:719
Registered:July 2008
Adding insult to the injury loading a saved game incurs a cth penalty for your mercs, take that save-scummers, suck it up :devilaugh:

Let go, begin again.
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #334970] Wed, 13 August 2014 09:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Meitsi

 
Messages:17
Registered:June 2009
Location: Finland
If merc(s) die, I accept it and try to learn from it.

Why can't you just load, do your ACTIONS to change things, without the system forcing you?

Current system also allows lazy players to just not do anything different to change the outcome Wink

Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #334978] Thu, 14 August 2014 00:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kirill_OverK

 
Messages:263
Registered:September 2010
night ops mod for example use old ja2-pre-random ..



why 1.13 can't use old & new sys. by chose at game start ?


____
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #334982] Thu, 14 August 2014 08:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Meitsi

 
Messages:17
Registered:June 2009
Location: Finland
This has already been answered.

I don't see the brilliance in the old system as you could still make the enemy miss or reduce the damage taken from -55 to -5 by simply loading, without doing any changes.

[Updated on: Thu, 14 August 2014 08:37] by Moderator

Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #334991] Thu, 14 August 2014 15:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kirill_OverK

 
Messages:263
Registered:September 2010
Meitsi
This has already been answered.

enemy miss or reduce the damage taken from -55 to -5 by simply loading,
without doing any changes.




it new system ... (full random as now in 1.13)

not old...
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #334997] Thu, 14 August 2014 20:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Meitsi

 
Messages:17
Registered:June 2009
Location: Finland
No I mean the old system. Not talking theory now, but the actual gameplay. You can screw the outcome just like with the new system by loading.
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #334998] Thu, 14 August 2014 20:10 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Gambigobilla

 
Messages:719
Registered:July 2008
Sshhh, don't answer. Maybe he'll go away.
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