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Traits in JA1[message #264379] Wed, 06 October 2010 21:05 Go to next message
vota dc

 
Messages:53
Registered:August 2006
I have just modded JA1 DG and I found these traits

-Snitch must be when they give you information, but it doesn't happen very much
-Forgetful is like JA2
-Over Enthusiastic means that they refuse to move when they shoot. You can bypass it if you order to pick an item. It means also that they are psycho?
-Extremely nervous is like JA2
-Non swimmer...well it said everything
-Hopeless shot. It is a malus to markmanship when they shoot? I noticed that mercs with that can evolve markmanship stat.
-Summer legs. I have no idea.
-Wimpy Conscience. I have no idea.
-Extra stealty. How it works? You gain a level for sneaking purpose?
-Sacred Vest. You can't remove the armor.
Re: Traits in JA1[message #264395] Wed, 06 October 2010 23:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mgl

 
Messages:254
Registered:December 2007
Location: France
vota dc
-Over Enthusiastic means that they refuse to move when they shoot.
[...]
It means also that they are psycho?

Psycho in JA1 and Deadly Games is not the same as in JA2. They are locked on their target and won't follow orders until it's dead. And I had the case when Malice left the team because he didn't kill anyone in the mission I think. I don't know if it happens all the time. And I don't remember if psychos in Deadly Games are as dangerous as in JA1.


vota dc
-Hopeless shot. It is a malus to markmanship when they shoot? I noticed that mercs with that can evolve markmanship stat.

I thought their markmanship never increased.


vota dc
-Summer legs. I have no idea.

It's from JA1. I believe that mercs with this trait/personality, like Hamous or Hector, suffered less than others when the day was very hot (as announced to you by Jack, your employer). I think it is not used in Deadly Games.


vota dc
-Wimpy Conscience. I have no idea.

Isnt'it Biff's special trait ?


vota dc
-Extra stealthy. How it works? You gain a level for sneaking purpose?

They make less noise and are more successful at being stealthy. Magic and Mouse have it.

Re: Traits in JA1[message #264396] Wed, 06 October 2010 23:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gorro der GrĂ¼ne

 
Messages:1540
Registered:March 2009
Location: Broadwurschd-City
I never looked at traits and so with Ja (1) I just played and enjoyed
Re: Traits in JA1[message #264405] Thu, 07 October 2010 01:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
vota dc

 
Messages:53
Registered:August 2006
Psycho are dangerous both in JA1 and DG. While in JA 2 you have a bonus (just don't give them automatic weapons!) here you have only disavantages. The no move thing could be hackered, but the "I leave because I haven't killed enough" can be very dangerous: for example Skitz have a horrible markmanship and he can't improve, so he will leave often. And some mercenaries that could become good after training like Reuban...well they leave: so they are useful only in late game when you have very good weapons. I noticed that if you find few dollars you can give to them and they will come back with better level and better stats...it is the only way to rid of psycho mercenaries and rehire them later. I am curious if you can be over enthusiastic and not pshycho.

Markmanship for hopeless shot improve with training, shooting or just when the mercenary is hired by someone else. That is why I can't see so much difference.
Re: Traits in JA1[message #264583] Sat, 09 October 2010 09:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
vota dc

 
Messages:53
Registered:August 2006
I made a little test.

Hopeless shot means that you get 1/3 of markmanship from training. Reuban from 32 goes to 38 while Wally from 24 goes to 26. Maybe even less than 1/3 since the lower is the skill, the faster should increase.

About over enthusiastic it does two things: the "leave me alone" when they shoot on an enemy, and the fact that they join if there is a merc that they hate (for killing him of course!).
The fact that they get angry if you fire them is separate: but there are no strings, so they still insult if you do so.
The fact that if they don't kill enough they leave is also separate: there is a "kill rate" factor that is usually 20, but some mercs have different..Reuban has 40 (he needs to kill a lot) and Screw has only 5. You can have a non over enthusiastic merc that needs to kill. But if you add this value to non-pshycho they will say something strange because there isn't the string.
And of course all pshycho mercs doesn't care if too many mercs die in your mission, or if you fire too many mercs (except their buddies)...many of them doesn't care if you fail too many mission, with the exception of Screw and Skitz.
Re: Traits in JA1[message #264585] Sat, 09 October 2010 09:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
public1983

 
Messages:127
Registered:February 2006

This thread is interesting. Do you know these game rules from experience or can you find this with the hex-editor? I like having a list of mercs in JA2 with their hidden performance values like AP, repair-points, lock-picking, buddies, etc. Treats are of particular interest for such a list for JA1. So if you know sources about this, please let me know.
Re: Traits in JA1[message #264588] Sat, 09 October 2010 12:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
vota dc

 
Messages:53
Registered:August 2006
Many things I know from the experience, but I verified few days ago with Proed.exe that allow you to read prof.edt. You can find it here http://neptune.spaceports.com/~fax/fin/jaggedalliance.htm and you have to put in your edt folder.

101 value means they don't fear turnover, death or failure.
Prcvd demand, fair offer, max unfair and max offer must be when the mercenary want more money (if the mission is too dangerous, if you fire his buddy etc).
Steal factor is when they flee with your money (loyal mercs has 99).
Min service is when you can fire them without anger them.
There is also gentleman...I don't know the effect in the game.
Mercs can hate a max of 4 mercs: Leon's sons + one merc if you do both hate and will hate...but of course they have the string and the voice only for hate one at time. Larry + Gary + Sparky are an exception: you can't hate for example Magic + Ivan + Hamous.
Re: Traits in JA1[message #264599] Sat, 09 October 2010 19:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
public1983

 
Messages:127
Registered:February 2006

Mh, I have got the GOG version of Jagged Alliance 1. The program does not seem to work. Maybe I will try Deadly Games some time. Are all JA 1 mercs the same in DG?
Re: Traits in JA1[message #264610] Sat, 09 October 2010 22:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mgl

 
Messages:254
Registered:December 2007
Location: France
sunshine
Are all JA 1 mercs the same in DG?

I believe that all the mercs from JA1 except 3 of Jack's 4 assistants are in Deadly Games. DG has new mercs too, like Malice, Mouse, Leon Roachburn (?), Spam... And Hamous left Jack to become a member of A.I.M.

Re: Traits in JA1[message #264613] Sat, 09 October 2010 23:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
vota dc

 
Messages:53
Registered:August 2006
sunshine
Mh, I have got the GOG version of Jagged Alliance 1. The program does not seem to work. Maybe I will try Deadly Games some time. Are all JA 1 mercs the same in DG?


It is strange. You put it in the edt folder?
However the mercs are the same and I suppose all hidden traits too. The only changes are some new mercs, Biff that know medicine and the price of mercs: many low level mercs have higher salary while high level mercs have a lower salary. Pops has 1/10 of his salary in DG!
Re: Traits in JA1[message #264640] Sun, 10 October 2010 15:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
public1983

 
Messages:127
Registered:February 2006

Ok. I have put the program into the dat-folder first. Now, in the edt folder, the program says prof.edt not found. Well, so I renamed the newprof.edt into prof.edt. Now proed starts, but the output is nonsens. A pity. The offsets must have changed in newprof.edt. The readme of proed also says something about not being compatible to the latest release of the game.

This seems like no easy path to my list. I must get DG or fiddle with the hexeditor and proeds output. I may well do without. The game JA1 itself is time consuming enough. Thanks so far.
Re: Traits in JA1[message #264710] Mon, 11 October 2010 21:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
vota dc

 
Messages:53
Registered:August 2006
But the edt files are in the dat folder in JA1? It is strange.

One year ago I donwloaded a JA1 editor and I modded the mercs. I am not sure if it showed the hidden traits. The problem is that while I own DG, I never owned JA1...I just found it in Abandonia (it was downloadable for some time) and both JA1 and his editor are in my broken laptop. "Only" the monitor is broken (that means I can't use it since it is attached) and due to shortage of time until mid-november I can't repair it, but after that I will check which editor I used.
Re: Traits in JA1[message #265035] Mon, 18 October 2010 20:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
public1983

 
Messages:127
Registered:February 2006

I have got DG and extracted all hidden values in a table. Now I am trying to understand. Some concepts are self explaining, like Evolution, Non-Swimmer, Forgetful, Over Enthusiastic, Extra Stealthy and Snitch. For Summer Legs and Hopeless Shot Your suggestions are a good working hypothesis. Speck and Biff have got an individual treat, that is hard to figure exactly. Extremely Nervous lets the merc say he feels vulnerable, but does it also affect his performance? Does Biff's Wimpy Conscience mean only that he leaves after killing somebody?

The other values are hard to assess quantitatively. What exactly does Buddy? A great figure means a strong link, as it seems. Buddies care about each other being killed or fired. Is there any positive effect? Hatred seems to let mercs leave or ask for greater salary if exposed. Is there any other negative effect?

The rest is a lot of figures. What I can guess is qualitative.
Steal Factor - great value steals less, effect realtive to salary?
Death Rate - small value tolerates less deaths in some average across the time of engagement
Turnover - small value tolerates less turnover as reported in the overview, a formula would be handy for both
Bad Missions - does this apply for metavira? Is this some quantity about lost sectors?
Kill Rate - great value gets angry when not scoring kills
Perceived Demand - Prcved = Perceived? No idea what this does. Something about money?
Fair O ffer, Max Unfair, Max O ffers - Limits for the salary increased in trouble?
Min Service - must be the days on assignment after which they do not complain being fired?

Under the assumtion of minimal change from DG to JA1 there are only the native guides missing. I have looked up the problem of my version of JA1. It is the latest and they encrypted the prof.edt into newprof.edt. That is what the readme of "proed" says and what I remember as a rumor years ago.

[Updated on: Tue, 19 October 2010 21:44] by Moderator

Re: Traits in JA1[message #265299] Thu, 21 October 2010 03:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
vota dc

 
Messages:53
Registered:August 2006
Steal factor is based on salary.
For example Mike is a loyal mercenary because the max you can steal is 35000 (5000 for 5 pockets and two hands) and his pay is 10000, but the steal factor is 5, so 50000. However loyal mercs have 99 steal rate. But 99 (like 0) is a special value: if Lance steal more than 99 of his pay he won't steal.

I just tried to set the steal factor of Mike to 1 and take 15000 dollars. He stole the cash...and even said "I have to leave for personal reasons". Very interesting because that means he is supposed to steal while real loyal merc they say something strange with the error string.
Re: Traits in JA1[message #265343] Thu, 21 October 2010 14:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
public1983

 
Messages:127
Registered:February 2006

Interesting. You are right. It is as easy as just altering the values and seeing what happens. I have never played DG, so there are no savegames for an advanced start. I will see what I can do with a new game.

Edit: Ok, it seems that buddies complain if the other is angry. That reveals the difference between the prof.edt of JA1 and JA DG. Tex and Vinny must be buddies of a lot of mercs in JA1 but not in JA DG.

[Updated on: Sat, 23 October 2010 18:38] by Moderator

Re: Traits in JA1[message #265497] Sun, 24 October 2010 05:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
vota dc

 
Messages:53
Registered:August 2006
There is also a positive effect for buddies.
For example Ice want more money because your turnover rate? If you hire Snake he will join for the standard price!
Re: Traits in JA1[message #265527] Sun, 24 October 2010 17:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
public1983

 
Messages:127
Registered:February 2006

Thanks for the info on buddies. I found that Ice and Snake are none in Metavira. Actually every merc has only one Relationship in my version of newprof.edt. The assumption on minimal changes seems to fail.

I have extracted a table of most values about mercs. What I can match with a meaning is Salary, Stats, Trait, Will Hate, Buddy Merc, Hated Merc and Rank. Some figures I cannot sort by my lack of experience with JA1. I rarely changed my preferences of mercs in the handful games I have played through. Here comes the table:

Toggle Spoiler


The first three must be about salary negotiations, because the four natives at the end are neutral. The next three must be somehow technical because of the frequency of some values. The last four must be about turnover, sucess, fatalities and non payment. I would be grateful for every hint for matching these values. Smile

[Updated on: Sun, 24 October 2010 17:04] by Moderator

Re: Traits in JA1[message #265564] Sun, 24 October 2010 23:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mgl

 
Messages:254
Registered:December 2007
Location: France
It it's the ten bytes between "trait" and "buddy" that you quoted, I can tell you from my sketchy notes (I don't know if my notes are about the savegame structure or the profile file structure):

* I don't know what the first 5 bytes are except that the fourth is most of the time 33h (51). It shows in your table.

* if the 6th is "0", the merc will join on day 1, but I don't know exactly what the number means.

* 7, 8 and 9 are: death rate, turnover and minimal service. The value 65h (101) is neutral.
If you hire a merc for a number of days lesser than his minimal service, he will badmouth you.

* I don't know what byte 10 is.

* 16 bytes after the "buddy" byte (which would be byte 11 in your table), you have the evolution byte: 0 = none, 1 = normal, 2 = reversed.

* 16 bytes after the "medical stat" byte (would be byte 17 in your table), you have the inventory bytes (1 byte per slot): main hand, other hand, head, face, ears, chest, vest, pocket, pocket, pocket.

Edit:
About the inventory, it should start with a low value because it's the gun in the main hand and guns are at the lowest indexes in the items table of the game. "01" must be the .38 revolver.

[Updated on: Mon, 25 October 2010 00:08] by Moderator


Re: Traits in JA1[message #265593] Mon, 25 October 2010 14:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
public1983

 
Messages:127
Registered:February 2006

Thanks for the hints. I update the table with title "nknwnx", x = 1, ..., 7 for bytes without known meaning. If found the meaning of the first three of the last table. Fair% is the percentage by which the salary must rise so they accept to stay. Unfair% is the minimum raise for continuing the negotiation. Tries is the maximal length of a negotiation. Here is the update:

Toggle Spoiler


What makes me wonder is the value 5 for evolution, which I cannot assess. Are they extra quick learners? And the item in Moses' Hands is invalid. I have got a list of Item codes and trait codes following

Toggle Spoiler


So the rest can only be assessed by changing the values, I guess. There must be a code for Sex, Bodytype, Buisy Day Tolerance and so on. Some of those I suspect to be flag values.

Further hints are welcome. If this thread becomes too heavy, please some mod say something and I will switch to editing.

Edit: Sorry for the poor format. I shortened the strings, so the tabs work properly.

Edit2: I have sorted unknwn4 ... unknwn7. It is Body width, Body shortening, Skin Color and Buisy Day Tolerance.

Edit3: I think, two missing values must be this Perceived Demand thing. Is it, that they say they think of leaving instead of simply vanishing? The value next must be some steal factor. As this might as well be bound to salary, I cannot verify this without playing a bit. What remains is nknwn3 which is 5 for Gary, Tex and Skitz and 0 otherwise. I have not found the value which determines the Sex of the mercenairy. Anyways this list is quite revealing, so far.

[Updated on: Mon, 25 October 2010 21:03] by Moderator

Re: Traits in JA1[message #317177] Sun, 07 April 2013 22:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
chzr
Messages:1
Registered:November 2010
hi, i know this topic is really old, but maybe someone will find it helpful like i just did.


i think wimpy conscience means they merc quits if he sees anyone die (either enemy or your merc)

edit: also, i finally figured out the progress value. single/double digits are days after the mercs are available, regardless how well you fare. triple digits mean how many "success points" (you can see those in a.i.m info window) you need to have for merc to join, ignoring the "1" ie: magic will join once you have more than 12 success points (which is perfectly possible in 2-3 days actually).

[Updated on: Mon, 08 April 2013 04:59] by Moderator

Re: Traits in JA1[message #322613] Thu, 11 July 2013 14:42 Go to previous message
blueskirt

 
Messages:17
Registered:May 2010
If anyone is interested, I've managed to convert the PROF.EDT file included in Deadly Games v1.13 into a format that it can be read with Profile Editor. It seems like Sir-Tech simply added a string of twelve bogus (or so I believe) hex every 132 hex (one for every mercenary), which screwed up with the editor's ability to read the mercenary stats correctly. By removing all these bogus strings manually with a hex editor, I've managed to create a PROF.EDT file that can be read with the editor.

Note that editing PROF.EDT with Profile Editor is completely useless until someone creates a way to painlessly reinsert the bogus strings of hex in the PROF.EDT file so that Deadly Games v1.13 can read it correctly, but this new PROF.EDT file allows us to peek at the mercenaries hidden stats which had been tweaked by Sir-Tech at the same time they made PROF.EDT incompatible with the editor.

You can grab the file here:
http://www.mediafire.com/?4abovokn1ptexmc

The profile editor can be grabbed here:
http://ja.4mg.com/edit.html

Also, thanks, Sunshine, this is a pretty cool uber chart you've made although you've got a couple columns mixed up. It should be:
Progr. - Death - Trnvr - Fail - Non Payment
rather than
Progr. - Death - Trnvr - Mn Srvc - Fail

-Edit-
I've finally got the time to compare the files and it appears Sir-Tech bluffed when they said they tweaked the stats to keep some mercenary events a surprise. The only stat that was changed was Gus's health (It's now 72 instead of 78), the other changes were inventory related, mercs having shielded vest in minimal equipment and pocket vests on standard and generous equipment, a couple tool kits and crowbars removed here and there, and a couple instance where mercs had sniper scopes in standard equipment but silencers on generous equipment.

The hidden stats were left untouched.

[Updated on: Fri, 12 July 2013 18:45] by Moderator

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