Home » MODDING HQ 1.13 » v1.13 Modding, Customising, Editing » v1.13 Weapon & Item Refinement » WW II Mod
Re: WW II mod[message #275483] Thu, 10 March 2011 22:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wolf00 is currently offline wolf00

 
Messages:1153
Registered:September 2006
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ready & aviable for duty http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/be/browning-auto-5-e.html

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Sergeant Major
Re: WW II mod[message #275486] Thu, 10 March 2011 23:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
breversa

 
Messages:104
Registered:November 2010
@ Pyg :
THANKS for you sortof-SCI ! Very Happy
I won't have time to try it before next week (I'm off to improve my MKM and LDR by being trained as a combat shooting instructor Razz ), but count me in for some testing ! Wink

I tried to *upper*case all my files (using krename), but got so many problems that I gave up that idea. Maybe going lowercase was a batter idea ??

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Sergeant
Re: WW II mod[message #275527] Fri, 11 March 2011 13:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Buns is currently offline Buns

 
Messages:656
Registered:September 2010
wolf00
ready & aviable for duty http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/be/browning-auto-5-e.html
That would indeed be a bit more interessting shotgun. The pump-actions are realy of not much use in this mod. In one of the early versions I had Tex starting with an Ithaca, only to always throw it away after landing in A9 and to replace it with an enemy bolt-action rifle. The Ithaca rechambers faster (but still requires rechambering), while damage is just marginally higher than that of a rifle and range is joke, even compared to SMGs.


--------------------
New
I have implemented two new calibers: .25 ACP (6.35x16mm) and .32 ACP (7.65x17mm). Both are low power pistol-rounds that will be used by a couple of small pocket-pistols. Those are pistols small enough to store them in a normal pocket (the small pockets that can hold the utility knife or the locksmith kit). That way you don't need to wear a distinctive holster for your backup weapon. Downside of course is that tiny pistols only have tiny ranges....

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First Sergeant
Re: WW II mod[message #275532] Fri, 11 March 2011 13:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LootFragg is currently offline LootFragg

 
Messages:349
Registered:August 2009
Location: Berlin, Germany
The reason for shotguns existing is pretty much the high chance to hit due to the buckshot spreading out, making it easier to hit moving and / or small targets (well, it's not birdshot, but the effect is similar). Additionally, the many pellets create enough wounds (and shock) on any (naturally unarmored) game. Rifles of any type mostly fire hard-hitting rounds that accurately penetrate anything from body armour to massive skulls and thin walls. However, it's almost impossible for any hunter to pinpoint a flying duck. This in turn means shotguns should have an increased chance to at least partially hit using the spread's multiple projectiles, even without much aiming, dealing little damage per pellet with all pellets together being lethal, while any body armour, even flak jackets and thick clothing should drastically reduce the effect of the load.

I was always pretty pissed at the weakness of shotguns in JA2. Meanwhile, they have their -50% CTH penalty removed, but due to low range and relatively low damage with huge AP costs they're useless. A sawn-off with buckshot is no weapon for serious firefights across average distances of, say, 100-200m, where accurate rifles with the capability of killing when hitting really outshine everything. In close combat scenarios against unarmored targets they should get a clear bonus. Nevertheless, it has always been easier to hit with a proper rifle than with a shotgun and the damage was awfully low. Remember that buckshot is for killing (or lethally wounding) game by hitting vital spots. Rifles will do as well, so does slugshot ammo on shotguns, but hitting is harder.

Fix that by increasing the spread to accomodate for the short distances in JA2, change damage and AP costs (decrease the firing cost or give them less aiming clicks), make penetration ridiculously low like Glaser ammo (even muscle tissue and skin can stop the pellets in some cases). Then put these changes into 1.13 as well. =D

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Master Sergeant
Re: WW II mod[message #275536] Fri, 11 March 2011 14:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Buns is currently offline Buns

 
Messages:656
Registered:September 2010
Shotguns, like all other short-ranged weapons, suffer from the dual scale. A tile is considered 10 meters for the prupose of weaponary range (and vision range), even though it in fact is one meter measured by size of mercs, structures and speed of movement. Another problem is that the "stopping" effect of hits is rather limited. Unless the soldier is surpressed he will be able to fight on until dead. Being hit by the full broadside of a shotgun often not is sufficient to ultimativly stop the soldier from doing anything.

Shotguns do have a temporary use in standard JA2/1.13 because there is a phase of the game when they deliver by far the highest damage and there are no other weapons in use that have a (seriously!) longer range. This does not apply to this mod because the game already starts with weapons of seriously larger range, and similar damage value being widely available; not to mention stuff like MGs that can deliver as much as 500+ damage points per turn. Means shotguns are mostly useless here, what is insofar correct as this is a mod primarly about military weapons of the 1920s to 1940s, and shotguns were usually not to be found in the standard arsenals of the infantry in that periode.

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First Sergeant
Re: WW II mod[message #275573] Fri, 11 March 2011 22:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LootFragg is currently offline LootFragg

 
Messages:349
Registered:August 2009
Location: Berlin, Germany
Well yes, I absolutely support using different weapons in different situations. I have always been an opponent to the reign of assault rifles. So I love the idea of using combat rifles, sniper rifles, machineguns, submachineguns, pistols and possibly shotguns the way they're supposed to work in a stylized world.

Gun ranges, like many aspects of the game, can't be taken from the real world and put into the game 1:1. Each time I hear somebody complaining about a certain rifle actually having higher range and such, I have to remind him of the various factors that have NOT been taken into account so far, starting with map size and flat terrain. This is not a war simulator, it's a game, blah. So gun ranges can be unrealistic. They are. No pistol works efficiently at 100m distance. Players would in theory be supposed to fire at 2-5 tiles distance with shots at 5 tiles barely scoring any hits.
So having a shotgun fire at 100-150m in JA2 is quite possible. At that distance the spread should already ensure the shotgun's inferiority when it comes to raw damage.

The stopping effect is of course not represented like it probably should, but each hit takes breath and every wound decreases a fighter's performance. I try to at least hit an enemy soldier in order to keep him in place by reducing his available APs and possibly have him faint and bleed to death. Aiming with wounds is worse. And being shot to pieces, mercs and enemies alike barely stand a chance of defending themselves in their turn. So attacking at close range, even if it doesn't ultimately stop somebody with certainty, should have enough effect to make shotguns a viable tool, but right now they're still inferior to pistols (which have an increased range for gameplay purposes) and submachineguns (being faster and more accurate as it stands).

In standard 1.13 I haven't yet been able to deal a significant amount of damage. Well, I've shot someone in the head point blank, but even when he died immediately, I could've dealt twice the damage with a meager pistol and a hollow point bullet. Although I have to admit I haven't used shotguns lately, except for slug ammo shotguns as early rifles like you said. And they're fairly slow (a bit like sniper rifles), not really accurate and when they hit (which would kill any deer) they don't really deal any significant damage. Bit like 5.56mm ammo.

[EDIT] I've just made my Ranger IMP (increased shotgun damage) fire at an unarmored pistol wielding redshirt from 13 tiles distance using a good Baikal MP-133 with slug ammo (15+5 range), aimed shot to the chest from a prone position. I managed to hit him, dealing 12 (!) points of damage. This action cost me all of my APs. Latest beta revision 4240 with 100% gun damage, sufficient for killing a redshirt with two Makarov shots to the body.
The UDB tells me the gun has a damage of 39, the slugs have standard 1.0 tumbling and penetration values.
So either there's something hardcoded that really nerfs down shotguns to make them absolutely useless or I can just never get a proper hit unless I'm up close, pointing a sawn-off at someone's head.

THIS is what makes shotguns useless when compared to "reality". They have actually been used in both world wars (trenchguns mainly). Not as common as casual guns though, due to their higher ranges and more penetration.

Indeed, shotguns haven't been standard issue military guns, neither are they today, but they've existed since ... always basically. The 18th century and maybe earlier. Even early musketeers used fragmented bullets to create spread instead of penetration - and I suppose muskets were technically more shotguns than rifles due to the smoothbore barrel and the large caliber. Shotguns are pretty common. They're mostly considered civilian and hunting firearms and even if they're not standard WWII era military equipment they shouldn't be excluded (they aren't, I'm just saying they should be somewhat relevant).

After all, it's not about a believable World War reenactment. I consider finding a hunting shotgun somewhere outside a military depot far more probable than finding an automatic weapon or even a good repeater rifle, but I might be biased.

Concerning balance and the high damage output of automatic weapons: Yes I think machine guns should have the highest damage in the entire game. Anybody in front of a bipodded machine gun has to be toast. I'd increase their potential even further, probably. I'm a machine gun fan. Even the Bundeswehr's MG3 ("even" is the wrong word, I think it's one of the best machine guns ever =D) basically "destroys" an area it's being pointed at. The amout of dirt being thrown up is incredible. The MG42 is almost twice as fast (well, can be) and holds a larger round so YEAH! Machine guns rule.

However, they need to be put in place like sniper rifles. Submachineguns are early assault rifles and basically work on every distance, but for gameplay reasons they're hard to wield and their full-auto spread is harder to contain with each bullet dealing significantly lower damage than rifles, making them flexible suppression guns (which they have actually been used for). Any accurate shots need to be taken by rifles. Pistols are backup guns but not the main choice for heated close combat battle. They shouldn't be, let's put it that way. So in order to have a weapon with good close combat properties that is tied to close combat only and not as flexible as SMGs, there's shotguns.

I agree though, they can't become too powerful due to buckshot against unarmored targets being lethal as shit. However, I'd want to see (and use) them as valuable close combat armament.

Also, pump-action is far faster than bolt-action, but that's already in the game.

If you could include some early shotguns and modify them accordingly, that'd be awesome.

[Updated on: Sat, 12 March 2011 08:05] by Moderator

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Master Sergeant
Re: WW II mod[message #275593] Sat, 12 March 2011 07:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Hawkeye is currently offline Hawkeye

 
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Lootfragg
Turns out trenchguns were quite popular during WW1 due to the frequent close combat battles.


Not by the Germans, they weren't. It may be worth considering such things as Geneva and Hague conventions if this is to be a WWII mod with widespread shotgun usage, though it never seemed to stop Americans using them.

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Lieutenant

Re: WW II mod[message #275595] Sat, 12 March 2011 08:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LootFragg is currently offline LootFragg

 
Messages:349
Registered:August 2009
Location: Berlin, Germany
Hawkeye
it never seemed to stop Americans using them
Rumor has it, it's because the war conventions the Germans tried to ban shotguns by only outlawed lead scattershot while the Americans used plated shot. Both killed equally well, but only one of them was forbidden. Very Happy

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Master Sergeant
Re: WW II mod[message #275606] Sat, 12 March 2011 13:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Buns is currently offline Buns

 
Messages:656
Registered:September 2010
Shotguns never were much used by German military. In fact I couldn't even name a single German shotgun that ever saw military service. I also would not be able name any shotguns used by other armies than the US during WWII. For example, this (certainly not complete) list of WWII infantry weapons only has a shotgun-section for the US army: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_common_World_War_II_infantry_weapons

LootFragg
Well, I've shot someone in the head point blank, but even when he died immediately, I could've dealt twice the damage with a meager pistol and a hollow point bullet.
You wouldn't even need HP ammo: a shotgun delivers some 40 damage, a pistol something around 25. But with the pistol you can shoot at least two or three times a turn, means you can cause some 50 to 75 damage. This is a certain death for each admin and most soldiers, and even a blackshirt would be much on knees after that. The 40 points (maximum!) from the shotgun would most likely not kill even an admin, and most soldiers and all blackshirts would still be able to return the favour in their turn.

Quote:
This action cost me all of my APs
Yes, that's the major problem. It is a slow firing CQB weapon. You need to be with full AP within less than 10 tiles of your opponent to fire the two shots needed to (half-way) safely get him down. This would be a very rare situation, what usually only happens at night. Otherwise you would have been moving during your turn and don't have full APs left. In that situation, trying to shoot your shotgun in JA realy is a bad idea; draw your pistol instead.

Quote:
THIS is what makes shotguns useless when compared to "reality". They have actually been used in both world wars (trenchguns mainly). Not as common as casual guns though, due to their higher ranges and more penetration.
A "trenchgun" is meant to be used when entering an enemy trench. Combat range in that situation would be less than 10 meters. One might ask if a shotgun would realy be the best choice under circumstances like that. For example, WWI German Sturmtruppen were experts in that kind of combat and did not use shotguns but SMGs.


Quote:
After all, it's not about a believable World War reenactment. I consider finding a hunting shotgun somewhere outside a military depot far more probable than finding an automatic weapon or even a good repeater rifle, but I might be biased.
Yes, that's the way I am using them: whenever you would expect to find a civilian rifle it most likely is a shotgun (Ithaca or sawed-off), Krieghoff, Mauser M-03 (as a stand-in for "hunting rifle" because infact it is a modern design), or Winchester 1894. I have also kept the Puma rifles in game for more variations, even though they are later designs too and I am planing to add the Winchester 1895 in various calibers as well.

Quote:
So in order to have a weapon with good close combat properties that is tied to close combat only and not as flexible as SMGs, there's shotguns.
That's the special thing with this mod: (nearly) every merc can be equipped with a SMG as his starting weapon and you should find SMGs after every battle. Even the worst SMG in game, what is probably the M3A1, is a better choice in all situation than a shotgun. That way, even if I would implement more shotguns and place one behind every other door, there absolutly would be no reason for the player to use them.


------------------------------
Changes:

Implemented a couple of pistols in .25 ACP, .32 ACP, and 9x17mm
http://img859.imageshack.us/img859/60/waffenneu.jpg

A new update will be uploaded in short.

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First Sergeant
Re: WW II mod[message #275617] Sat, 12 March 2011 18:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Vasious is currently offline Vasious

 
Messages:6
Registered:March 2011
Since the m34 Beretta is in, thought about the m 91 Carcano and Carbine perchance?

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Private
Re: WW II mod[message #275651] Sun, 13 March 2011 13:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
usrbid is currently offline usrbid

 
Messages:1510
Registered:December 2008
Yo Buns, Started playing your beta, I am using wf-aimnasv15-ww2_en.7z which I downloaded from somewhere. Do you have a newer version? How frequently do you update your download?

Buns
Another new item is the "weapon cleaning kit". It replaces the locksmith kit and works like a tool kit, with the advantage that it doesn't weight much and that you can carry it in a small pocket.


Does this mean I need to use the weapon cleaning kit like a tool box and assign a merc to repair items? If yes, then can I repair other items with it too, like for example items which are not weapons e.g. helmets etc.? If yes, how about you make the weapon cleaning kit a merge item which increases the status of the gun a little? What I mean is that you can attach the weapon cleaning kit to any gun which raises the status by a few percentage points (instantly).

Buns
there aren't so many scopes or other high-tech stuff, compared to 1.13 AIMNAS.


Compared to AIM, you are correct, however all my mercs have scoped guns after clearing the third sector, I haven't even left Omerta yet. Three have ZF 42s, the rest has small scopes, some have even two scoped weapons.

Overall the no gun progression needs some getting used to. Basically you have alright gear from the very start when your heli lands e.g. most of my guys had 30-06 rifles, one started with a scope.

Not only are the starting guns great (compared to the usual pistol fest), the starting gear is pretty useful as well. All my guys started with green uniforms (wood cammo) vest and legs, some helmets, all LBE (vest, both legs, side pack), KCB knife, canteen, a pistol, a rifle, and the lockpicking guy got a lockpick kit.

Right from the very start I had everything I needed, which is pretty cool to try out, however now I am not sure what my next goal should be, I feel a little lost. The maps are *packed* with good items, however most of them are not as good as the stuff I already have. I realized that I have less motivation to play.

I decided I would do a "live of the land" game, no BR, no militia etc. - kind of what I did with Demise of Man - and walked to San Mona to have a talk with Tony and possibly make this my headquarters.

Buns
Dealers
Bobby Ray and Tony no longer have every weapon in gameh


While it is cool that Tony doesn't *sell* everything, I was (completely) stunned when I found out that he also doesn't *buy* any of the items I brought with me. Tony didn't even buy a 1911 or a 45 mag, holy cow!!

I would have been cool with Tony being bugged on the weird rifles (I remember that some mods have difficulties with last minute additions), however the way he is currently implemented, he cannot be used to make money - at all!

(The way you implement this is make the item sellable by Tony but set the amount to zero. This way Tony won't sell the item but still buy it from you.)

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Sergeant Major

Re: WW II mod[message #275654] Sun, 13 March 2011 14:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Buns is currently offline Buns

 
Messages:656
Registered:September 2010
Vasious
Since the m34 Beretta is in, thought about the m 91 Carcano and Carbine perchance?
I have it on the list, but so far not planning to implement it: it would require a new caliber to implemented and since we don't have any Italian mercs running around, or other people we would assume to use Italian weapons, I don't think that it will make it in in short.


Dieter
Yo Buns, Started playing your beta, I am using wf-aimnasv15-ww2_en.7z which I downloaded from somewhere. Do you have a newer version? How frequently do you update your download?
I think I have the latest version of WF-AIMNAS with HAM 4, STOMP, facilities and all that stuff. Did you run into any problems with your exe? NB, the download does not contain an exe; only XMLs, maps and graphics.

Quote:
Does this mean I need to use the weapon cleaning kit like a tool box and assign a merc to repair items?
Yes, it works like a toolkit. It in fact is a second toolkit because the original toolkit also is in with the same functions. So there is no need to carry around the heavy red toolboxes.

This isn't a perfect sollution because the "weapon cleaning kit" should only work with weapons of at least, say, 80% status. Everything else should require true repairing in your base using the toolbox. But that cannot be implemented by pure XML editing.

Quote:
If yes, how about you make the weapon cleaning kit a merge item which increases the status of the gun a little? What I mean is that you can attach the weapon cleaning kit to any gun which raises the status by a few percentage points (instantly).
Is that possible? I have made it mergable but that only allows to merge two of it to higher status. How do I make it mergeable with other items?

Quote:
Overall the no gun progression needs some getting used to. Basically you have alright gear from the very start when your heli lands e.g. most of my guys had 30-06 rifles, one started with a scope.
Yes, snipers and IMPs with higher MRKs do start with scopes.

Quote:
Not only are the starting guns great (compared to the usual pistol fest), the starting gear is pretty useful as well. All my guys started with green uniforms (wood cammo) vest and legs, some helmets, all LBE (vest, both legs, side pack), KCB knife, canteen, a pistol, a rifle, and the lockpicking guy got a lockpick kit.
Yes, that's the basic gear. They get a full belt with ammo, a 1st aid kit, a canteen and a knife (I have issued the KCB knife because I do not knife that often, mainly dying enemies I come across, but use it as a wire cutter). The "lockpicking kit" is in fact the above mentioned "weapon cleaning kit". You need an utility knife to pick locks.

The green uniform is one of four new uniforms, the others are tan, brown, and grey. It probably is the best in the north where all terrain is woodland, but further south you should think of issuing brown or tan uniforms.

AIM mercs with rifles usually also have a pistol in their starting gear (you had paid for it). You really shouldn't neglect pistols in this mod only because there is no pistol-only phase: the rifles are close to useless in CQB. After all those are no M16s.

Quote:
Right from the very start I had everything I needed, which is pretty cool to try out, however now I am not sure what my next goal should be, I feel a little lost.
What about taking a town or two? Or let me pose the question differently: what do you do next in your other games?

Quote:
The maps are *packed* with good items, however most of them are not as good as the stuff I already have.
Yes, that's intended: you find a lot of stuff when plundering the civs, but what you get in a house of an Arulcan peasant isn't realy valuable: a lot of clothes you can at best turn into rags (but who needs that many?), sometimes a black cap to wear under your helmet, a bit of not-so-good bags you can use as LBE, knifes, some civilian weapons like shotguns etcpp.

In general you are "rewarded" for picking all those locks on the WF maps, but living off the land without attacking military installations would be quite difficult.

Quote:
I decided I would do a "live of the land" game, no BR, no militia etc. - kind of what I did with Demise of Man - and walked to San Mona to have a talk with Tony and possibly make this my headquarters.
Good luck with that, because you said your guys use .30-06 weapons. In this case you have a problem: the enemy doesn't. Kingpin's mob uses US weapons, so you will find a couple of .30-06 and .30 Car on the drug-farms around San Mona, but that's it.

The enemy drops .45 ACP quite frequently, but will not drop you a single round of .30-06 or .30 Car. Of course, in this case you also will not find it in ACA buildings, SAMs, barracks etc. This means you have two choices:

You either throw away your starting weapons and pick what the enemy drops for you - in this case you'll notice that there is in fact some "looking for a better gun" even without true gun-progression because the enemy will not always use and drop his best weapons in every battle.

Or you buy yourself the ammo you need (BR or Frank) and establish a line of sluppy between the seller/Drassen airport and the front. Buzz running wild with her BAR can then can become a quite expensive hobby.

Quote:
While it is cool that Tony doesn't *sell* everything, I was (completely) stunned when I found out that he also doesn't *buy* any of the items I brought with me. Tony didn't even buy a 1911 or a 45 mag, holy cow!!
Tony deals with eastern European, mainly Russian stuff. A 1911 or a .45 ACP is not part of his selection. He will happly take any Tokarev and any round of 7.62 because he re-sells it, but has no business with those capitalists' weapons.

You realy should use sell ALT+LMB. The enemy weapons are usually comparably expensive (compared to the pistols of the JA2 starting phase), so you'll still make good money with it.

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First Sergeant
Re: WW II mod[message #275663] Sun, 13 March 2011 15:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LootFragg is currently offline LootFragg

 
Messages:349
Registered:August 2009
Location: Berlin, Germany
Buns
Yes, snipers and IMPs with higher MRKs do start with scopes.
Restrict scopes to Marksmen and Snipers only. No MRK bonus to getting scopes plz, kthx!

Buns
a lot of clothes you can at best turn into rags (but who needs that many?)
Mmmmmolotovssssss!!!1

Buns
establish a line of sluppy
Just wet myself laughing. Dunno why, this just got me laughing hard.

Keep up the great work.

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Master Sergeant
Re: WW II mod[message #275716] Mon, 14 March 2011 17:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Buns is currently offline Buns

 
Messages:656
Registered:September 2010
Progress:
- Fixed the AK-47 suddenly becoming available at BR with game progress 50 (oops)
- Fixed some item findings here and there
- Fixed enemies in Cambria SAM having breaklights
- Enemies in desert sectors now wear desert uniforms instead of green
- Changed some MercStartingGears for the new pistols

Pending:
Just placing the new pistols (and last but not least the new ammo) on some maps to get them into game additionally. As soon as that is completed I'll upload the next draft.

Open tasks:
- Dealers sometimes don't buy every magazine of the ammo they trade but only boxes. I am also suffering from the $1-bug (some items only cost $1 at dealers). Not sure what can be done about that.
- Tracers for MG-ammo still missing
- Some sollution on rifle-grenades needs to be found.
- Vintage AT-weapons to be implemented. I also need to make sure the player has access to some AT-weapons after landing in Omerta: the enemies between Omerta and Cambria might have a tank, what shouldn't exclude the player from moving south on game start.
- May be signal/flare-pistols should be implemented
- LBE should be reworked; eventually it should be possible to modify belts.


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First Sergeant
Re: WW II mod[message #275724] Mon, 14 March 2011 19:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Badbru is currently offline Badbru

 
Messages:63
Registered:January 2008
Location: Perth Australia
"Some solution on rifle grenades needs to be found."

With the new attachment system now, m203's when added to an AR have their own attachment point for 40mmNades. How about a barrel end attachment, like the flash suppressor, that comes with an attachment point for 40mmNades. You'd still have to cycle firing to G-launcher, and give it the stats of an M203 or similar only it would attach to the weapon at the barrel end rather than underslung. The Germans and British used several types of rifle launched grenades - most, if not all, required some type of barrell end fitting.

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Corporal
Re: WW II mod[message #275733] Mon, 14 March 2011 23:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Logisteric

 
Messages:3228
Registered:December 2008
Location: B
it's called a schie

[Updated on: Mon, 14 March 2011 23:27] by Moderator

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Captain
Re: WW II mod[message #275744] Tue, 15 March 2011 04:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LootFragg is currently offline LootFragg

 
Messages:349
Registered:August 2009
Location: Berlin, Germany
Buns
- May be signal/flare-pistols should be implemented
Wouldn't be that hard, right? Grenade launcher firing illumination shells. Only firing from one hand. I don't know if it can be considered a non-heavy weapon by the game if it is a grenade launcher.

Badbru
You'd still have to cycle firing to G-launcher
Logisteric
schie

[Updated on: Tue, 15 March 2011 04:57] by Moderator

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Master Sergeant
Re: WW II mod[message #275751] Tue, 15 March 2011 09:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Logisteric

 
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LootFragg
Is it possible to merge a "Schie

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Captain
Re: WW II mod[message #275752] Tue, 15 March 2011 09:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
breversa

 
Messages:104
Registered:November 2010
LootFragg
Buns
- May be signal/flare-pistols should be implemented
Wouldn't be that hard, right? Grenade launcher firing illumination shells. Only firing from one hand. I don't know if it can be considered a non-heavy weapon by the game if it is a grenade launcher.


The H&K EFL (Emergency Flare Launcher : http://www.hkpro.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=12:the-efl-flare-launcher&catid=20:all-other-weapons&Itemid=5) already exists in AIMNAS, IIRC.

It's a small 5-shots pistol shooting an illuminating "bullet" that creates the same effet on impact than a flare.

I don't think it'd be too hard to modify it into a german Leuchtpistol LP42, for instance. Smile

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Sergeant
Re: WW II mod[message #275753] Tue, 15 March 2011 09:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Logisteric

 
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http://www.hermann-historica.de/auktion/images49_gr/40512.jpg

wurfgranatpatrone 326LP - scroll down for detailed pix


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Captain
Re: WW II mod[message #275754] Tue, 15 March 2011 10:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LootFragg is currently offline LootFragg

 
Messages:349
Registered:August 2009
Location: Berlin, Germany
Logisteric
a few rifle grenates utilizing life rounds
Attempting to make the system too realistic would probably become a bit too complex. WW1 and 2 guns mainly used specific guns without bullets. This isn't the case with modern adaptations. The question is if it would be better to

A: Fire the grenade like from an underslung grenade launcher.

B: Fire the grenade with the need of one shot of ammo as propellant.

The question is not what type of ammo gets used. There can be only one type of ammunition in a magazine in JA2 which is unrealistic enough to make thinking about the topic from a realism standpoint quite useless. If rifle grenades were implemented without workarounds, what would they look like, how would they behave? That's the question.

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Master Sergeant
Re: WW II mod[message #275755] Tue, 15 March 2011 10:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Logisteric

 
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b - the grenade comes with a phantom-round (and maybe, while loading it your magazine is dropped to your inventory) - and it takes a lot of ap

for the k98k you could not use it with a full mag (5/stripper clip) as you would not have gotten the blank into the chamber - i think i read somewhere that specialised 'grenadiers' hat blank-clips and an aditional p38 for self-defence

we cannot a) mix ammo b)restrict it to clips (- one round) and use phantom roounds so i think the heavy ap-way is the way to go and drop the clip to the inventory (if doable) to make it even more aps as you have to reload next turn

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Captain
Re: WW II mod[message #275756] Tue, 15 March 2011 10:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wolf00 is currently offline wolf00

 
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this one beauty is interesting ... http://collegehillarsenal.com/shop/product.php?productid=521

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Sergeant Major
Re: WW II mod[message #275757] Tue, 15 March 2011 10:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
breversa

 
Messages:104
Registered:November 2010
So you suggest that *adding* the grenade (as an attachment) to the rifle would take lots of AP, while firing it would take a "normal" (for such weapon) AP cost ? Alright, that sounds reasonnable to me. Smile

Dropping the magazine in the inventory may be problematic though : what if no space is available ? Is the magazine dropped on the ground ? Why not... but isn't it a tad bit too complicated ? Why not factor the cost of reloading in the AP cost of the grenade shot ?

This way, both attaching and firing the grenade would cost lots of AP because :

1- attaching (in game) = putting on the rifle grenade, removing the normal ammo magazine and inserting a firing cartridge (in real-life)

2- firing (in game) = firing the grenade and reloading the gun with the previous magazine (in real-life)

Of course, high AP-cost would make firing rifle grenades a rather cumbersome, time-consuming action during which the shooter would be unable to defend himself, but hey, that's exactly how it works in real-life, and the reason why dedicated (either stand-alone or underslung) grenade launchers were made in the first place. Smile


PS :
Come to think of it... If the grenadier wants to fire more than one grenade, remonving the magazine from the gun is a good idea : it would lower the cost of shooting each grenade, and does not "force" the grenadier to reload after each grenade, saving some critical time if he's suprised by an ennemy and needs some precious APs to draw his pistol to defend himself (pretty much like you're not forced to reload your bolt-action rifle RIGHT AFTER EACH SHOT). Smile

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Sergeant
Re: WW II mod[message #275759] Tue, 15 March 2011 11:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LootFragg is currently offline LootFragg

 
Messages:349
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Logisteric, so you're saying the grenade comes with its own ammunition (IS its own ammunition in JA2), the rifle's actual clip is removed. Don't you think it's a bit too detailed? How would you deal with modern "rifle grenades" which don't need specific ammo? I'm asking because I want to know if you're planning to only create this rifle grenade or if you want to have rifle grenades as a general part of the game.

I want to know, this is my question: Do you want rifle grenades in JA2? There's only yes or no and any other answer than a straightforward "yes" is a definite "no".

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Master Sergeant
Re: WW II mod[message #275760] Tue, 15 March 2011 11:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Logisteric

 
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there are no modern rifle grenates - the concept is outdated

they should be restricted to their historical aera (ca 1910 - 1960) guns

in your terms that'll be a no, but it's definately a yes - especially in this very thread


modern schie

[Updated on: Tue, 15 March 2011 11:27] by Moderator

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Captain
Re: WW II mod[message #275761] Tue, 15 March 2011 11:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LootFragg is currently offline LootFragg

 
Messages:349
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Think I'm somewhat starting to freak out, so I'll keep it down a lot.

I'm not talking about grenade launchers.

I mean the RADS SIMON door breaching grenade.

That's the whole point. Rifle grenades aren't common and they have never really been a major development branch. That's why it's not entirely obligatory to have them in the game, especially with them being uncommon. But there's a rocket rifle. In case I see something that would really make sense to have implemented, I start researching and thinking and creating an idea I can rub into people's faces in order to make somebody give in and start coding it. This is always an effort because I'm no coder. So I need to know if rifle grenades should be a weapon category or if dealing with this problem on a workaround basis is enough for the sake of this mod.

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Master Sergeant
Re: WW II mod[message #275764] Tue, 15 March 2011 11:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot is currently offline DepressivesBrot

 
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breversa

The H&K EFL [...] It's a small 5-shots pistol shooting an illuminating "bullet" that creates the same effet on impact than a flare.

Actually, it's implemented as a small grenade launcher holding up to 5 tiny illum grenades.

As for the rifle grenades:
To somewhat hack them in:
1) high AP costs for loading and shooting but otherwise works like a normal 20/25/40mm grenade
2*) I wonder if you can give the device some absurd penalty (CTH, Range, Firing cost) without it applying to the grenade ... guess not.
To properly implement them:
1) Tag them as RGren in the xml
2) Suppress all other firing modes if a RGren is attached
3*) Delete a round when firing them - or assume they come with a blank
(obviously needs some coding)
Btw:
1) Modern rifle grenades do 'trap' the bullet and can be fired with live ammo that way
2) Several current assault rifles can use rifle grenades, e.g. the FAMAS and the G36

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Captain

Re: WW II mod[message #275765] Tue, 15 March 2011 11:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Logisteric

 
Messages:3228
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i did not know that one, but ...

as i see it ...

- it needs no firing device (aka schie

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Captain
Re: WW II mod[message #275769] Tue, 15 March 2011 12:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
breversa

 
Messages:104
Registered:November 2010
DepressivesBrot
Btw:
1) Modern rifle grenades do 'trap' the bullet and can be fired with live ammo that way
2) Several current assault rifles can use rifle grenades, e.g. the FAMAS and the G36


Thanks for your input, DB.

I was actually looking for pictures of french troops in Afghanistan, who use rifle grenades on a daily basis, to counter the claim that they're no longer used after the 60s-70s.

As stated before, earlier rifle grenades needed special, blank-firing cartridge to propel the grenade. Current, modern rifle grenades comme in two flavour : "bullet-trap" and "bullet-through". In both case, normal ammo can be used to fire the grenade.

PS :
According to Wikipedia, "bullet-through" rifle grenades exist since WW1 ! Razz

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Sergeant
Re: WW II mod[message #275770] Tue, 15 March 2011 12:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot is currently offline DepressivesBrot

 
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breversa
According to Wikipedia, "bullet-through" rifle grenades exist since WW1 !

Looks like the Soviets had them in WWII, I won't argue against the existence of earlier models though.
So, with US, German and Soviet grenades covered and all using some kind of muzzle adapter, I think we can ignore the 'stick' type grenades for simplicity.


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Captain

Re: WW II mod[message #275771] Tue, 15 March 2011 12:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
usrbid is currently offline usrbid

 
Messages:1510
Registered:December 2008
With the current merge system a rifle and a grenade cup could be merged into a new item which is a rifle with a built in grenade launcher. The second item from the merge could be a special muzzle break (the former tip of the barrel you unscrewed). This would work very similar to the SCAR rifles where the merge gives a rifle in a different caliber and a barrel.

The most important drawback is that the item type for launchables is 16 while the item type for grenades is 256, meaning that you probably can't use the regular grenades to "feed" the launcher. Not sure how a type 256 item would behave with the GLGrenade tag set, my guess is that it wouldn't work but I haven't tested that.

As a result you probably can only launch special grenades from the launcher and won't be able to throw the grenades (and make them explode like normal ones). The special grenade item for the grenade cup would work the same as an e.g. 40mm grenade, nothing happens when you throw those around.

Merging the special muzzle break with the rifle with built in grenade launcher would give back the rifle and a grenade cup making this merge reversible.

Edit: Oh, another (minor) drawback with this method is that you can shoot regular bullets with a grenade attached to the rifle. The player would have to switch the the GL firing mode to launch the grenade. It wouldn't be possible to launch the grenade automatically with the first bullet fired.

[Updated on: Tue, 15 March 2011 13:01] by Moderator

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Sergeant Major

Re: WW II mod[message #275772] Tue, 15 March 2011 13:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Buns is currently offline Buns

 
Messages:656
Registered:September 2010
Yes, the signal-pistol would be easy to implement using the existing flare launcher.

Concerning rifle grenades: The important thing gameplay-wise would be that you cannot shoot your rifle with the grenade(-launcher) attached. This means you cannot run around with your grenade-launcher ready and either shoot bullets or grenades, whatever the situation requires. You would need to make your weapon ready to shoot a rifle grenade, what should take some time, and then you can only shoot the grenade.

I was thinking of using a conversion function:

Rifle: your normal rifle, cannot shoot grenades
Launcher: the device to shoot grenades
RG-Rifle: otherwise identical rifle that can shoot grenades but no bullets
Dummy: an internal item used to "remove" the launcher

You start with your rifle, the launcher and a grenade in your inventory

Launcher + Rifle = RG-Rifle + Dummy

You now have the RG-Rifle that can load a grenade using the same mechanism as is used for underbarrel GLs in 1.13, and the Dummy item that you store somewhere in your inventory.

Load Grenade into RG-Rifle = ready to fire grenade

After having fired your grenades you would make the backward-merge to get back your normal rifle.

RG-Rifle + Dummy = Rifle + Launcher

This should keep all ammo and attachments with the rifle. The only problem would be how to prevent the RG-rifle from firing bullets. May be indeed using "No Semiautomatic" could help? No semiauto would prevent the rifle from firing single shots, and when defining 0 shots in autofire it shouldn't be able to fire auto either. Haven't tried it, but see it as a possible sollution with the means we have.

-----------------------------------------------------------

NEW VERSION:

http://www.gamefront.com/files/20128654/WWII_Beta02.rar
This is the full version.

http://www.gamefront.com/files/20128681/Update+WWII_0-02.rar
This is the update-only version if you already have the previous version installed. It only contains changes since then.

[Updated on: Tue, 15 March 2011 13:02] by Moderator

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First Sergeant
Re: WW II mod[message #275778] Tue, 15 March 2011 15:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LootFragg is currently offline LootFragg

 
Messages:349
Registered:August 2009
Location: Berlin, Germany
Buns
you cannot shoot your rifle with the grenade(-launcher) attached
Eeexactly.

Buns
No semiauto would prevent the rifle from firing single shots
Eeexactly.

Buns
Haven't tried it
Please try it. I want to know if it automatically switches to GL firing.

Buns
Launcher + Rifle = RG-Rifle + Dummy
I don't like the dummy. But I agree it's the best solution for now.

There is a burst size modifier, but there is no way of enabling or disabling a fire mode by attaching an item, right? Man that would be the one solution. Attach or detach a grenade, fire it, but disable firing regular bullets. Damn it.

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Master Sergeant
Re: WW II mod[message #275795] Tue, 15 March 2011 18:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wolf00 is currently offline wolf00

 
Messages:1153
Registered:September 2006
Location: Czech Republic

vis 35 fit perfectly in this mod http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg/pl/vis-wz35-e.html

http://world.guns.ru/smg/pl/blyskawica-e.html smg from poland

http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg/fr/mle-1935a-1935s-e.html from france ww2 france sidearm

http://world.guns.ru/rifle/repeating-rifle/fr/mas-36-e.html ww2 france rifle

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Sergeant Major
Re: WW II mod[message #275809] Tue, 15 March 2011 23:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
breversa

 
Messages:104
Registered:November 2010
In G8 (Cambria), I found :

- an M4 Super 90 shotgun (with retractable stock and fl

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Sergeant
Re: WW II mod[message #275812] Wed, 16 March 2011 00:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
breversa

 
Messages:104
Registered:November 2010
In G9 (Cambria), I found :

- an FN Barracuda revolver
- a Colt Commando (with retractable stock)
- an H&K UMP-9 (with a folding stock)
- a Ruger Mini-30 (with folding stock)
- a .40 pistol magazine
- several 7.62x39mm magazines
- several 40mm illumination and tear gas grenades
- Break lights and flares (?)
- HG-85, mini, smoke and flashbang grenades
- several modular pouches
- a Blackhawk Omega, Hongkong, police SWAT, police utility, SWAT sniper vest
- several uraban camo uniforms (?)
- several radio headsets
- a set of night vision goggles IIA

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Sergeant
Re: WW II mod[message #275841] Wed, 16 March 2011 12:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Buns is currently offline Buns

 
Messages:656
Registered:September 2010
@ LootFragg
The dummy is needed to trigger the backward conversion. It has to be an item you by guarantee have in your inventory when readying the grenade.

@ breversa
I am pretty confident you are again on the wrong maps.

wolf00
vis 35 fit perfectly in this mod http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg/pl/vis-wz35-e.html
This is already in AIMNAS

Quote:
http://world.guns.ru/smg/pl/blyskawica-e.html smg from poland
To exotical, and not realy needed with all those (better) .45 ACPs SMGs already in game.

Quote:
http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg/fr/mle-1935a-1935s-e.html from france ww2 france sidearm

http://world.guns.ru/rifle/repeating-rifle/fr/mas-36-e.html ww2 france rifle
both are implemted, as well as the MAS 38 and the MAC 1929.

----------------------------------------

New feature: Tweaking belts.

Made it possible to change your belts by adding pouches.

- Attaching a holster (or large holster, or holster rig) to an Assault Belt gives you an Officer's Belt
- Attaching a holster to an Infantry Belt gives you a Cavalry Belt
- Attaching a holster to the "Infantry Belt, old" gives you an Artillery Belt
- Attaching a holster to an Artillery Belt gives you a Dual Holster Belt
- Attaching a revolver-holster to the "Infantry Belt, old" gives you a "Cavalry Belt, old"
- Attaching a Leg Rig Equipment to any belt converts it into an "Infantry Belt, old"
- Attaching a Leg Rig AR Mags, SMG, or Small SMG to any belt converts it into an Assault Belt
- Attaching a Leg Rig SVD or Sniper Mags to any belt converts it into an Infantry Belt

You can also remove pouches from your belt by using the Pouch Set Straps. Using them on a belt gives you instead:
- Artillery Belt: a Holster
- Assault Belt: a Leg Rig AR Mags
- Cavalry Belt: a Holster and a Leg Rig SVD
- Cavalry Belt, old: a Revolver Holster and a Leg Rig Equipment
- Belt Dual Holster: two Holsters
- Infantry Belt: a Leg Rig SVD
- Infantry Belt, old: a Leg Rig Equipment
- Officer's Belt: a Holster and a Leg Rig AR Mags

Conversion should only be done with completly empty items!

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First Sergeant
Re: WW II mod[message #275845] Wed, 16 March 2011 12:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
breversa

 
Messages:104
Registered:November 2010
Buns
@ breversa
I am pretty confident you are again on the wrong maps.


But I DID get proper WW2 equipment in the rebels' hideout, I also find (as you said) full canteens in most sinks... I thought everything was right...

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Sergeant
Re: WW II mod[message #275847] Wed, 16 March 2011 12:58 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Buns is currently offline Buns

 
Messages:656
Registered:September 2010
breversa
But I DID get proper WW2 equipment in the rebels' hideout, I also find (as you said) full canteens in most sinks... I thought everything was right...
Yes, but these Cambria maps aren't. I have played down to Cambria a couple of times and might have missed a breaklight here and a C-18 tube there, but not that giant pile of wrong things in two sectors. There is an ACA in G9, what did you find there?

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First Sergeant
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